WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL
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@SaveFarris said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
I do not think some of you understand that just looking at WAR pitching or Hitting at not taking into account other stats
I do not think some of you understand that WAR takes into account other stats.
You can live and die by WAR but it is flawed when people only use WAR to debate players of different eras.
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Here a question for you WAR lovers and experts. Would Trout value and WAR be higher playing on a team that makes playoffs every year such as the Dodgers. Would his WAR increase Decrease or stay the same. If you broke down the WAR of players who played for more than 3 teams, Take the WAR from each team the player WAR would not be the same even for the best players would it?
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@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@SaveFarris said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
and not considering all stats or how good a player really was in his time based on how the game was in the era of that player
Except that WAR DOES adjust based upon era. So your argument is invalid.
Learn what WAR really is WIN above Replacement for his time not to compare players of different ERA's
https://library.fangraphs.com/misc/war/Yes it does compare players across different eras. Your linked article even says that.
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@skepple15 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
Take Griffey and Bonds came in the league almost at the same time. Bonds is batter but I think Griffey was better than Bonds in there prime.
Uh no.. Bonds was much better in his prime than Griffey
I would not say much better, They were both really good. I just looked at some stats, They were pretty equal. Bonds we know he best years were in his 30's and that was Jr decline with the injuries. For being one of the best players ever Bonds was terrible in the playoffs
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I think this should clarify WAR once and for all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztZI2aLQ9Sw
Edit Didn't realize someone had posted this already....
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@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@skepple15 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
Take Griffey and Bonds came in the league almost at the same time. Bonds is batter but I think Griffey was better than Bonds in there prime.
Uh no.. Bonds was much better in his prime than Griffey
I would not say much better, They were both really good. I just looked at some stats, They were pretty equal. Bonds we know he best years were in his 30's and that was Jr decline with the injuries. For being one of the best players ever Bonds was terrible in the playoffs
Um go look at Bonds pre 30 years old stats, Bonds was on a different level than Griffey, sorry.
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@skepple15 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@skepple15 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
Take Griffey and Bonds came in the league almost at the same time. Bonds is batter but I think Griffey was better than Bonds in there prime.
Uh no.. Bonds was much better in his prime than Griffey
I would not say much better, They were both really good. I just looked at some stats, They were pretty equal. Bonds we know he best years were in his 30's and that was Jr decline with the injuries. For being one of the best players ever Bonds was terrible in the playoffs
Um go look at Bonds pre 30 years old stats, Bonds was on a different level than Griffey, sorry.
Bonds Rookie year was 86 and the Kid came up in 89.
You should go look at the Kids stats they are actually slightly better overall than Bonds in prime and early in there careers. looking at all the stats. I like Bonds and think he should be in the HOF, if you compare the first 3-4 years Griffey is much better than Bonds was, I think Griffey was slightly better in the prime but it is close. Bonds Crushed Griffey in the late years. It sucks Griffey suffered from injury late in his career. They were the best in the 90's. They help turn franchises around. Both had pressure cause of who there Dad's were. -
Who is better George Brett or Wade Boggs
WAR says Brett 84.6
Boggs 81.4
Can you make a case that Boggs is better or do we only look at WAR.
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How about
Frank Thomas and Sam Crawford
Both are 80.4 so can one be better than the other????????????/
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@skepple15 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@skepple15 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
Take Griffey and Bonds came in the league almost at the same time. Bonds is batter but I think Griffey was better than Bonds in there prime.
Uh no.. Bonds was much better in his prime than Griffey
I would not say much better, They were both really good. I just looked at some stats, They were pretty equal. Bonds we know he best years were in his 30's and that was Jr decline with the injuries. For being one of the best players ever Bonds was terrible in the playoffs
Um go look at Bonds pre 30 years old stats, Bonds was on a different level than Griffey, sorry.
I'll agree to disagree with you on this one. The only thing Bonds had on Griffey pre 30 was vision (BB & K's) and SB. Griffey had more power and better contact. Should we even talk about defense?
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@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@skepple15 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@skepple15 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
Take Griffey and Bonds came in the league almost at the same time. Bonds is batter but I think Griffey was better than Bonds in there prime.
Uh no.. Bonds was much better in his prime than Griffey
I would not say much better, They were both really good. I just looked at some stats, They were pretty equal. Bonds we know he best years were in his 30's and that was Jr decline with the injuries. For being one of the best players ever Bonds was terrible in the playoffs
Um go look at Bonds pre 30 years old stats, Bonds was on a different level than Griffey, sorry.
Bonds Rookie year was 86 and the Kid came up in 89.
You should go look at the Kids stats they are actually slightly better overall than Bonds in prime and early in there careers. looking at all the stats. I like Bonds and think he should be in the HOF, if you compare the first 3-4 years Griffey is much better than Bonds was, I think Griffey was slightly better in the prime but it is close. Bonds Crushed Griffey in the late years. It sucks Griffey suffered from injury late in his career. They were the best in the 90's. They help turn franchises around. Both had pressure cause of who there Dad's were.Only reason Griffey broke down after 30 is because he wasn't juicing like Bonds. And playing on the turf in Seattle didn't help his knees.
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@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@skepple15 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
Take Griffey and Bonds came in the league almost at the same time. Bonds is batter but I think Griffey was better than Bonds in there prime.
Uh no.. Bonds was much better in his prime than Griffey
I would not say much better, They were both really good. I just looked at some stats, They were pretty equal. Bonds we know he best years were in his 30's and that was Jr decline with the injuries. For being one of the best players ever Bonds was terrible in the playoffs
That's all I need to know about how you value players.
BTW, Bonds had a 1.994 OPS in the 2001 WS, he literally did produce when it mattered most
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@eatyum said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@skepple15 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
Take Griffey and Bonds came in the league almost at the same time. Bonds is batter but I think Griffey was better than Bonds in there prime.
Uh no.. Bonds was much better in his prime than Griffey
I would not say much better, They were both really good. I just looked at some stats, They were pretty equal. Bonds we know he best years were in his 30's and that was Jr decline with the injuries. For being one of the best players ever Bonds was terrible in the playoffs
That's all I need to know about how you value players.
BTW, Bonds had a 1.994 OPS in the 2001 WS, he literally did produce when it mattered most
What about the other years in the playoffs? Can't go off of one steroid year.
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@Matt_42187 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@eatyum said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@skepple15 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
Take Griffey and Bonds came in the league almost at the same time. Bonds is batter but I think Griffey was better than Bonds in there prime.
Uh no.. Bonds was much better in his prime than Griffey
I would not say much better, They were both really good. I just looked at some stats, They were pretty equal. Bonds we know he best years were in his 30's and that was Jr decline with the injuries. For being one of the best players ever Bonds was terrible in the playoffs
That's all I need to know about how you value players.
BTW, Bonds had a 1.994 OPS in the 2001 WS, he literally did produce when it mattered most
What about the other years in the playoffs? Can't go off of one steroid year.
I'm going off the only time Bonds made it the WS, you know the ultimate stage of baseball. If you want to dismiss it because of steroids, that's your prerogative, but he did produce when it mattered MOST, which is the World Series.
Regardless, judging someone by the playoffs is dumb and doesn't really say anything about the players entire career. That was my point
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@eatyum said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@Matt_42187 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@eatyum said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@skepple15 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
Take Griffey and Bonds came in the league almost at the same time. Bonds is batter but I think Griffey was better than Bonds in there prime.
Uh no.. Bonds was much better in his prime than Griffey
I would not say much better, They were both really good. I just looked at some stats, They were pretty equal. Bonds we know he best years were in his 30's and that was Jr decline with the injuries. For being one of the best players ever Bonds was terrible in the playoffs
That's all I need to know about how you value players.
BTW, Bonds had a 1.994 OPS in the 2001 WS, he literally did produce when it mattered most
What about the other years in the playoffs? Can't go off of one steroid year.
I'm going off the only time Bonds made it the WS, you know the ultimate stage of baseball. If you want to dismiss it because of steroids, that's your prerogative, but he did produce when it mattered MOST, which is the World Series.
Regardless, judging someone by the playoffs is dumb and doesn't really say anything about the players entire career. That was my point
I never go off of someone’s playoffs either. AROD is in the same boat when it comes to playoff performances.
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@ilvmyjeep said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
Bottom line is that WAR is imperfect and flawed (OP’s point), but is currently the best available stand alone stat we have to compare players across different eras (other commenters points).
In 2019, Justin Verlander was 21-6 with a 2.58 ERA and 300k. His pitching was worth 7.4bWAR. In 2019, Mike Minor was 14-10 with a 3.59 ERA and 200k. His pitching was worth 7.8bWAR.
In 2019, Gerrit Cole was 20-5 with a 2.50 ERA and 326k. His pitching was worth 6.6bWAR. In 2019, Lance Lynn was 16-11 with a 3.67 ERA and 246k. His pitching was worth 7.5bWAR.
In this case, WAR is misleading. Despite having lower bWAR totals, Verlander and Cole had better seasons. Accordingly, Verlander and Cole finished 1st and 2nd in Cy Young voting while Lynn and Minor finished 5th and 8th.
bWAR includes park adjustments, so playing in Globe Life increased the bWAR totals of Lynn and Minor and without a deeper dive could lead someone that lives and dies by WAR to believe that Lynn and Minor were better than Verlander and Cole last season. Which to OP’s point, would be a ridiculous conclusion.
Having said that, more often than not, WAR (bWAR or fWAR) is going to be the best all-incompassing stand alone indicator of performance. The best players will consistently post the highest WAR totals.
In baseball, almost everything is recorded, quantified, and analyzed. With all the information that’s available, why would anyone choose just one stat to look at when comparing players? Even if that stat is comprised/calculated using other stats, it’s impossible to paint the entire picture and honestly, that person is just missing out on the incredible and fascinating information that’s out there.
I apologize to anyone who stuck with me and read all this. Believe it or not, I tried to keep it short. There’s just so much information out there that people are missing out on, and because of it, there’s seasons and careers that get tragically overlooked.
The flaw with this is believing that Win/Loss or ERA are very valuable when measuring a pitcher's ability. Yes a very low ERA does tell you a pitcher is good, just like a very high BA tells you a hitter is good. But there's far better measures for those things out there. And on a single year measurement, is it really outrageous to believe a Lance Lynn could outperform a Gerrit Cole? I don't believe so in the slightest.
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@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
Who is better George Brett or Wade Boggs
WAR says Brett 84.6
Boggs 81.4
Can you make a case that Boggs is better or do we only look at WAR.
You're making strawman arguments when it comes to WAR. I don't know anyone who seriously argues WAR in this way. Those two examples are basically the same WAR total. There's a negligible difference between the two players.
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@Matt_42187 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@skepple15 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@skepple15 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
Take Griffey and Bonds came in the league almost at the same time. Bonds is batter but I think Griffey was better than Bonds in there prime.
Uh no.. Bonds was much better in his prime than Griffey
I would not say much better, They were both really good. I just looked at some stats, They were pretty equal. Bonds we know he best years were in his 30's and that was Jr decline with the injuries. For being one of the best players ever Bonds was terrible in the playoffs
Um go look at Bonds pre 30 years old stats, Bonds was on a different level than Griffey, sorry.
I'll agree to disagree with you on this one. The only thing Bonds had on Griffey pre 30 was vision (BB & K's) and SB. Griffey had more power and better contact. Should we even talk about defense?
I would disagree with this. Barry Bonds was THE best player of the 1990s.
From 1990-1999
Barry Bonds: .302/.434/.602/1.036 with an OPS+ of 179 (79% above average)
Ken Griffey Jr: .302/.384/581/.965 with an OPS+ of 152. (52% above average)
From Age 20-29
Barry Bonds(Debuted at Age 21): .285/394/537/.930 OPS+ 157
Ken Griffey Jr(Starting 2nd Year): 302/.384/581/.965 OPS+ of 152. (Literally the same as above)
Through the 90s Bonds was clearly the superior offensive player, Leading Griffey in each category.
Through the 20s, more Traditional metrics would rank Griffey as Superior, but more advanced favor Barry -
@ImDFC said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@Matt_42187 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@skepple15 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@skepple15 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
Take Griffey and Bonds came in the league almost at the same time. Bonds is batter but I think Griffey was better than Bonds in there prime.
Uh no.. Bonds was much better in his prime than Griffey
I would not say much better, They were both really good. I just looked at some stats, They were pretty equal. Bonds we know he best years were in his 30's and that was Jr decline with the injuries. For being one of the best players ever Bonds was terrible in the playoffs
Um go look at Bonds pre 30 years old stats, Bonds was on a different level than Griffey, sorry.
I'll agree to disagree with you on this one. The only thing Bonds had on Griffey pre 30 was vision (BB & K's) and SB. Griffey had more power and better contact. Should we even talk about defense?
I would disagree with this. Barry Bonds was THE best player of the 1990s.
From 1990-1999
Barry Bonds: .302/.434/.602/1.036 with an OPS+ of 179 (79% above average)
Ken Griffey Jr: .302/.384/581/.965 with an OPS+ of 152. (52% above average)
From Age 20-29
Barry Bonds(Debuted at Age 21): .285/394/537/.930 OPS+ 157
Ken Griffey Jr(Starting 2nd Year): 302/.384/581/.965 OPS+ of 152. (Literally the same as above)
Through the 90s Bonds was clearly the superior offensive player, Leading Griffey in each category.
Through the 20s, more Traditional metrics would rank Griffey as Superior, but more advanced favor BarryWe’re talking about before 30 Yrs old. Not the 90’s. But, you're going to base it off of walks and extra base hits? I said bonds had a better eye. Bonds didn’t have a better arm and had less range. Therefore, people would run on him and he’d give those runs right back. Cough sid bream cough.
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@eatyum said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@skepple15 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
Take Griffey and Bonds came in the league almost at the same time. Bonds is batter but I think Griffey was better than Bonds in there prime.
Uh no.. Bonds was much better in his prime than Griffey
I would not say much better, They were both really good. I just looked at some stats, They were pretty equal. Bonds we know he best years were in his 30's and that was Jr decline with the injuries. For being one of the best players ever Bonds was terrible in the playoffs
That's all I need to know about how you value players.
BTW, Bonds had a 1.994 OPS in the 2001 WS, he literally did produce when it mattered most
Go look at the overall numbers of his PS
