WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL
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@SaveFarris said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
Does not inclued how they value of how many times a player K's
It actually does. (https://www.baseball-reference.com/about/war_explained_wraa.shtml) Advanced WOBA? Note 5
, does not include the value of RBI's or avg with runners in scoring pos.
Because that stat isn't independent of player performance. It requires teammates be in certain situations. Hence, why it's not included in an individual metric.
does not include SB which is a stat.
It does. See previous link, Advanced wOBA? Note 3
Does include BB which is part of OBP.
Which it should.
Does not include BA.
Because it's not that great a stat for comparing. Similar to using Wins for Pitchers, or Passing yards for a QB that doesn't account for garbage time stats.
It is not for comparing players of different Era's, it is based on win over replacment for a team without or with that player in the lineup it is an estimate.
Your own link said it did. You should read it sometime.
Now I get it, some people want to double down. However, this just about sums up every common misunderstanding about the stat. Oh wait I forgot it's not okay to change your opinion on the internet
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@ilvmyjeep said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
Bottom line is that WAR is imperfect and flawed (OP’s point), but is currently the best available stand alone stat we have to compare players across different eras (other commenters points).
In 2019, Justin Verlander was 21-6 with a 2.58 ERA and 300k. His pitching was worth 7.4bWAR. In 2019, Mike Minor was 14-10 with a 3.59 ERA and 200k. His pitching was worth 7.8bWAR.
In 2019, Gerrit Cole was 20-5 with a 2.50 ERA and 326k. His pitching was worth 6.6bWAR. In 2019, Lance Lynn was 16-11 with a 3.67 ERA and 246k. His pitching was worth 7.5bWAR.
In this case, WAR is misleading. Despite having lower bWAR totals, Verlander and Cole had better seasons. Accordingly, Verlander and Cole finished 1st and 2nd in Cy Young voting while Lynn and Minor finished 5th and 8th.
bWAR includes park adjustments, so playing in Globe Life increased the bWAR totals of Lynn and Minor and without a deeper dive could lead someone that lives and dies by WAR to believe that Lynn and Minor were better than Verlander and Cole last season. Which to OP’s point, would be a ridiculous conclusion.
Having said that, more often than not, WAR (bWAR or fWAR) is going to be the best all-incompassing stand alone indicator of performance. The best players will consistently post the highest WAR totals.
In baseball, almost everything is recorded, quantified, and analyzed. With all the information that’s available, why would anyone choose just one stat to look at when comparing players? Even if that stat is comprised/calculated using other stats, it’s impossible to paint the entire picture and honestly, that person is just missing out on the incredible and fascinating information that’s out there.
I apologize to anyone who stuck with me and read all this. Believe it or not, I tried to keep it short. There’s just so much information out there that people are missing out on, and because of it, there’s seasons and careers that get tragically overlooked.
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No one with half a brain uses bWAR for anyone other than infielders and WAR actually is somewhat flawed for pitchers
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fWAR is a superior stat in all ways to bWAR
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Era should not effect WAR anyway because it's dependent on quality of fielders and is a more flawed stat than WAR itself, instead fWAR uses FIP(fielding independent pitching), which is an independent stat that doesn't rely on the fielding besides catcher framing
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Justin Verlander and Gerrit Cole had better seasons, which is why no one with half a brain uses bWAR for anything besides 3rd base, as well as SS and 2B occasionally
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I’m shocked the OP hasn’t advocated for pitcher wins as a useful stat yet.
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@iCards1 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
I’m shocked the OP hasn’t advocated for pitcher wins as a useful stat yet.
Pitcher wins is about how well the team can hit and score Runs, The best pitcher will usually have the Best ERA especially in the NL. Take last year how well DeGroom pitch despite the wins. You can have a pitcher win 17 games but have an ERA plus 4 or high 3's just because the team gives that pitcher run support. You have to look at that pitchers W-L with ERA, WHIP, BB. K's. Just like hitters all the stats matter when it comes to comparing players. Look at a pitchers Run support as well.
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@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@iCards1 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
I’m shocked the OP hasn’t advocated for pitcher wins as a useful stat yet.
Pitcher wins is about how well the team can hit and score Runs, The best pitcher will usually have the Best ERA especially in the NL. Take last year how well DeGroom pitch despite the wins. You can have a pitcher win 17 games but have an ERA plus 4 or high 3's just because the team gives that pitcher run support. You have to look at that pitchers W-L with ERA, WHIP, BB. K's. Just like hitters all the stats matter when it comes to comparing players. Look at a pitchers Run support as well.
I'll take ERA+ because it's park adjusted and FIP to get a better sense of pitcher performance
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@iCards1 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
I’m shocked the OP hasn’t advocated for pitcher wins as a useful stat yet.
I never base anything off of one stat or a single formula. I do not think some of you understand that just looking at WAR pitching or Hitting at not taking into account other stats or researching the game in the time that the player played and just assuming WAR got it right, WAR does not take in a lot of factors of the ERA in which that player played.
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@Nanthrax_1 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@iCards1 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
I’m shocked the OP hasn’t advocated for pitcher wins as a useful stat yet.
Pitcher wins is about how well the team can hit and score Runs, The best pitcher will usually have the Best ERA especially in the NL. Take last year how well DeGroom pitch despite the wins. You can have a pitcher win 17 games but have an ERA plus 4 or high 3's just because the team gives that pitcher run support. You have to look at that pitchers W-L with ERA, WHIP, BB. K's. Just like hitters all the stats matter when it comes to comparing players. Look at a pitchers Run support as well.
I'll take ERA+ because it's park adjusted and FIP to get a better sense of pitcher performance
I agree with that
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@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
I do not think some of you understand that just looking at WAR pitching or Hitting at not taking into account other stats
I do not think some of you understand that WAR takes into account other stats.
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@SaveFarris said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
I do not think some of you understand that just looking at WAR pitching or Hitting at not taking into account other stats
I do not think some of you understand that WAR takes into account other stats.
You can live and die by WAR but it is flawed when people only use WAR to debate players of different eras.
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Here a question for you WAR lovers and experts. Would Trout value and WAR be higher playing on a team that makes playoffs every year such as the Dodgers. Would his WAR increase Decrease or stay the same. If you broke down the WAR of players who played for more than 3 teams, Take the WAR from each team the player WAR would not be the same even for the best players would it?
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@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@SaveFarris said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
and not considering all stats or how good a player really was in his time based on how the game was in the era of that player
Except that WAR DOES adjust based upon era. So your argument is invalid.
Learn what WAR really is WIN above Replacement for his time not to compare players of different ERA's
https://library.fangraphs.com/misc/war/Yes it does compare players across different eras. Your linked article even says that.
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@skepple15 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
Take Griffey and Bonds came in the league almost at the same time. Bonds is batter but I think Griffey was better than Bonds in there prime.
Uh no.. Bonds was much better in his prime than Griffey
I would not say much better, They were both really good. I just looked at some stats, They were pretty equal. Bonds we know he best years were in his 30's and that was Jr decline with the injuries. For being one of the best players ever Bonds was terrible in the playoffs
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I think this should clarify WAR once and for all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztZI2aLQ9Sw
Edit Didn't realize someone had posted this already....
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@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@skepple15 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
Take Griffey and Bonds came in the league almost at the same time. Bonds is batter but I think Griffey was better than Bonds in there prime.
Uh no.. Bonds was much better in his prime than Griffey
I would not say much better, They were both really good. I just looked at some stats, They were pretty equal. Bonds we know he best years were in his 30's and that was Jr decline with the injuries. For being one of the best players ever Bonds was terrible in the playoffs
Um go look at Bonds pre 30 years old stats, Bonds was on a different level than Griffey, sorry.
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@skepple15 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@skepple15 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
Take Griffey and Bonds came in the league almost at the same time. Bonds is batter but I think Griffey was better than Bonds in there prime.
Uh no.. Bonds was much better in his prime than Griffey
I would not say much better, They were both really good. I just looked at some stats, They were pretty equal. Bonds we know he best years were in his 30's and that was Jr decline with the injuries. For being one of the best players ever Bonds was terrible in the playoffs
Um go look at Bonds pre 30 years old stats, Bonds was on a different level than Griffey, sorry.
Bonds Rookie year was 86 and the Kid came up in 89.
You should go look at the Kids stats they are actually slightly better overall than Bonds in prime and early in there careers. looking at all the stats. I like Bonds and think he should be in the HOF, if you compare the first 3-4 years Griffey is much better than Bonds was, I think Griffey was slightly better in the prime but it is close. Bonds Crushed Griffey in the late years. It sucks Griffey suffered from injury late in his career. They were the best in the 90's. They help turn franchises around. Both had pressure cause of who there Dad's were. -
Who is better George Brett or Wade Boggs
WAR says Brett 84.6
Boggs 81.4
Can you make a case that Boggs is better or do we only look at WAR.
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How about
Frank Thomas and Sam Crawford
Both are 80.4 so can one be better than the other????????????/
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@skepple15 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@skepple15 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
Take Griffey and Bonds came in the league almost at the same time. Bonds is batter but I think Griffey was better than Bonds in there prime.
Uh no.. Bonds was much better in his prime than Griffey
I would not say much better, They were both really good. I just looked at some stats, They were pretty equal. Bonds we know he best years were in his 30's and that was Jr decline with the injuries. For being one of the best players ever Bonds was terrible in the playoffs
Um go look at Bonds pre 30 years old stats, Bonds was on a different level than Griffey, sorry.
I'll agree to disagree with you on this one. The only thing Bonds had on Griffey pre 30 was vision (BB & K's) and SB. Griffey had more power and better contact. Should we even talk about defense?
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@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@skepple15 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@skepple15 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
Take Griffey and Bonds came in the league almost at the same time. Bonds is batter but I think Griffey was better than Bonds in there prime.
Uh no.. Bonds was much better in his prime than Griffey
I would not say much better, They were both really good. I just looked at some stats, They were pretty equal. Bonds we know he best years were in his 30's and that was Jr decline with the injuries. For being one of the best players ever Bonds was terrible in the playoffs
Um go look at Bonds pre 30 years old stats, Bonds was on a different level than Griffey, sorry.
Bonds Rookie year was 86 and the Kid came up in 89.
You should go look at the Kids stats they are actually slightly better overall than Bonds in prime and early in there careers. looking at all the stats. I like Bonds and think he should be in the HOF, if you compare the first 3-4 years Griffey is much better than Bonds was, I think Griffey was slightly better in the prime but it is close. Bonds Crushed Griffey in the late years. It sucks Griffey suffered from injury late in his career. They were the best in the 90's. They help turn franchises around. Both had pressure cause of who there Dad's were.Only reason Griffey broke down after 30 is because he wasn't juicing like Bonds. And playing on the turf in Seattle didn't help his knees.
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@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@skepple15 said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
@dbarmonstar said in WAR MOST OVERRATED FORMULA IN BASEBALL:
Take Griffey and Bonds came in the league almost at the same time. Bonds is batter but I think Griffey was better than Bonds in there prime.
Uh no.. Bonds was much better in his prime than Griffey
I would not say much better, They were both really good. I just looked at some stats, They were pretty equal. Bonds we know he best years were in his 30's and that was Jr decline with the injuries. For being one of the best players ever Bonds was terrible in the playoffs
That's all I need to know about how you value players.
BTW, Bonds had a 1.994 OPS in the 2001 WS, he literally did produce when it mattered most
