Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing
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@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@hegone44 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant.
Okay, one last time.
WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player.
None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense.
Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant.
WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout.
Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team
To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon.
Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that.You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats!
Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser..
Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed
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You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians
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WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either.
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Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts
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I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial.
The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)).
OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s).
Defensively they arent remotely comparable.
You're missing the point that it is extremely difficult to provide additional wins into WAR and dWAR as a left fielder, but Gordon did. Meanwhile, Carter actually played under replacement level and actually cost his team games with his defense...
Why do you think Keith Hernandez' career dWAR is 1.3? Because although he was a great fielder, it is very difficult to provide additional defensive wins as a 1B. The fact that Gordon was able to produce 8.6 defensive wins based on dWAR as a left fielder is actually very impressive and shows that he actually had a net-positive impact there (unlike Carter).
Lastly, Bill James (not Will) is not the creator of WAR but win shares. He criticises WAR sure but how about you go to him and present your analysis between Carter and Gordon based on RBIs, stolen bases and all star appearances... Wonder what he would say to that....
We just disagree about the use of WAR as a singular stat. I think that ANY singular stat RBI, homers, BA etc is not as good as a full statistical analysis. I am not using ONE stat. When triangulating the data which any statistician on the planet would say is a better method of analyzing data than looking at any one stat you get a better idea of the player. Here are some facts
- Carter is better stats in the following:
Homeruns (career, single season, per AB),
RBI (career, single season, per AB),
Steals (career, single season, per AB),
hits (career, single season, per AB),
Triples (career, single season, per AB),
Runs (career, single season, per AB),
BA (career)
Slugging (career, single season) - number of .500 SLG season
OPS (career, single season) - number of .800 OPS seasons
OPS+ (career)
All-Star selections
Top 10 MVP selections-
Gordon played a great LF and a horrible 3B
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WAR is a not a perfect stat. Here are a few articles that touch on it
WAR article
lThis WAR article touches other aspects of it that might directly impact this comparison
Here is an example of how BAD a stat WAR can be and you can find TONS when you start to look. Take a look at 1994 Carter
G AB R. H HR. RBI. SB BA. OBP. SLG. OPS
1994 34 TOR AL 111 435 70 118 27 103 11. .271 .317 .524 .841I think its fair to say that a season like this that got him a top 10 MVP finish and an all star selection is not something that any typical replacement player could have pulled off. Clearly baseball people realize it was a great season thus the All Star selection and MVP votes. Those are good numbers. But according to WAR this won't even get you an extra win as the WAR for this season was 0.7. This is in large part due to his -1.6 dWAR. Wow such a bad dWAR you would think he was making tons of errors. Nope only 2 errors. So I guess he was missing balls? Really? won't get into how that is measured in WAR but it is VERY subjective.
Realistically, I'm not even writing this to you, but the other forum members, because I know nothing can make you change your mind.
Here is how baseball reference calculates defensive WAR:
W-L% = ((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player))/((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player) + ((League Runs/Game / 2)- Player Defensive Runs)^(Runs/Game involving Player))
DWAA = (W-L% - .5) * Games Played
DWRSE = Player Defensive Runs / ((2 * (league Runs/Game)^.715) - (2 * (Runs per Game involving Player)^.715))
DWAR = DWAA + DWRSEHow much do you think this has to do with how many errors Carter committed?
How valuable do you think a player that never commits an error but covers an area the size of a basketball is to a team?
You've decided that WAR is somehow an arbitrary stat but how about we put this thing to a vote here? How many people do you think will vote for Carter?
WAR tells much more about a player than any of those base stats used together. Gordon’s career is better than Carter’s, and only a true moron would think otherwise.
Driver when you don't have a good argument the classic move of unintelligent people is to name call. I disagree with Sefar, but he is smart enough to have an intelligent argument without an insult. But when we last had a WAR debate I asked if you have EVER taken more than 6 credits in Math or statistics, if you have EVER taken a undergraduate or masters level statistics class. If you have have even 60 college credits. I also asked if you have ever had to use stats or develop statistical analysis in ANY professional manner. I can answer YES to all of those and to me that is not a high bar. So before you call someone a moron you should look in the mirror.
Hopefully I have enough college math credit to qualify for a conversation about baseball stats, but I digress...
Most people would argue, as you have, that Joe Carter was a far superior hitter, and that offensive superiority over Gordon outweighs Gordon's defensive superiority over Carter. Fair enough. I've seen both these guys play and, based on my memories, I'd have thought that too. However, our memories/eyes lie all the time. Here's a slash line comparison:
Gordon: .258/.339/.413/.752
Carter: .259/.306/.464/.770Now defense. By ANY metric available Gordon is the far superior defensive player. Fangraphs Def rating difference is +27.4 for Gordon to -175.7 for Carter. Baseball Ref dWAR is +8.6 for Gordon to -15.7 for Carter.
So, to recap, OPS is essentially a pick-em, especially since Gordon has a decided edge in the most important offensive category (OBP). Defense is a landslide in Gordon's favor. That's why the difference in WAR is pretty dramatic.
So if I'm an AL team and can DH Carter then maybe I'll take him. But if he has to play a COF position, Gordon will help my team more in the long run. Bottom line is Joe Carter was not nearly as good as we remember.
I very much appreciate you reiterating this. It's nothing that wasn't already stated on the previous pages, but sometimes repetition is helpful. It's definitely interesting that Joe Carter specifically has this tendency of making people view him through - in one way or another - tinted glasses.
No it was quite different in that they brought in the overall slash line and not JUST WAR.
I think Joe Carter is looked at positively because he was a very good player. I think the change in narrative about him is about the cult of WAR that has become popular especially amongst non-athletes since his retirement.
His poor WAR is silly on the face of it. The example I gave of his 1994 WAR illustrates my point.
Now you can have your new last word
Thank you for graciously offering me the last word.
This is what I stated two days ago:
"The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)).
OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s).
Defensively they aren't remotely comparable.."
OPS (and the minuscule difference between Gordon's and Carter's career OPS) has been referred to several times in this thread.
You ignored that and instead referred to RBI's, stolen bases and all star appearances as some sort of a difference maker. Problem is, RBI's and all star appearances are useless when it comes to comparing players. Stolen bases have been clearly shown to be much less valuable than previously thought, this is why the overall number of stolen bases has steadily declined. Furthermore, Carter was never some standout speed demon, in his best year he had 31 stolen bases and was caught stealing 1/6 times (Rickey Henderson, who played at the same time, recorded more SB's in a year 23 times).
Considering the similarity of the OPS numbers between the two players, you essentially value the extra 10 stolen bases per year, regardless of how atrocious that player is as a fielder, over elite defense in LF.
This is another losing argument you simply were not able to let go off because "you are what you are".
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In addition to Joe Carter the obvious SS is Warren Spahn. Dude was best lefty of his era. His elite wins total, ERA and Innings make him a stud from that era. Oh and he has a high WAR if you need just one stat.
I do worry that he won’t translate well in game. Not a hard thrower. He threw a lot of breaking stuff. He might get the Mathewson treatment
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@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
In addition to Joe Carter the obvious SS is Warren Spahn. Dude was best lefty of his era. His elite wins total, ERA and Innings make him a stud from that era. Oh and he has a high WAR if you need just one stat.
I do worry that he won’t translate well in game. Not a hard thrower. He threw a lot of breaking stuff. He might get the Mathewson treatment
Could make a fairly compelling argument for him being the greatest LHP of all time, and he's only got that 89 that's been out all year. I'd be SHOCKED if they don't put in a SS this month sometime.
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@hegone44 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
In addition to Joe Carter the obvious SS is Warren Spahn. Dude was best lefty of his era. His elite wins total, ERA and Innings make him a stud from that era. Oh and he has a high WAR if you need just one stat.
I do worry that he won’t translate well in game. Not a hard thrower. He threw a lot of breaking stuff. He might get the Mathewson treatment
Could make a fairly compelling argument for him being the greatest LHP of all time, and he's only got that 89 that's been out all year. I'd be SHOCKED if they don't put in a SS this month sometime.m
No, no no! He could only be considered the greatest lefty EVER if you looked at Wins, innings, complete games and ERA. Randy Johnson and Lefty Grove have better WAR and that is all that matters here.
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Eric Davis, Goose, and Orel.
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@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
Ben Zobrist.
Among Rays players currently in the game, he’s the second best all time behind Longoria.
What type of attributes and overall would you expect to see?
In terms of his career numbers, clearly the '09 season was his best (which is the card we currently have). Where would you expect to see increases or would you just expect him to be slightly better at everything?
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@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@hegone44 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
In addition to Joe Carter the obvious SS is Warren Spahn. Dude was best lefty of his era. His elite wins total, ERA and Innings make him a stud from that era. Oh and he has a high WAR if you need just one stat.
I do worry that he won’t translate well in game. Not a hard thrower. He threw a lot of breaking stuff. He might get the Mathewson treatment
Could make a fairly compelling argument for him being the greatest LHP of all time, and he's only got that 89 that's been out all year. I'd be SHOCKED if they don't put in a SS this month sometime.m
No, no no! He could only be considered the greatest lefty EVER if you looked at Wins, innings, complete games and ERA. Randy Johnson and Lefty Grove have better WAR and that is all that matters here.
Wow so now it's you who make comments like this huh? I'm not saying I'd make it, because if you made me rank the top 4 he's 4th behind Koufax, Johnson, Grove. But of course the argument is compelling. Guy won 363 games, and was 114 games above .500. Led his league in wins 8 times, in a time when wins definitely carried more weight than they do today.
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@hegone44 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@hegone44 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
In addition to Joe Carter the obvious SS is Warren Spahn. Dude was best lefty of his era. His elite wins total, ERA and Innings make him a stud from that era. Oh and he has a high WAR if you need just one stat.
I do worry that he won’t translate well in game. Not a hard thrower. He threw a lot of breaking stuff. He might get the Mathewson treatment
Could make a fairly compelling argument for him being the greatest LHP of all time, and he's only got that 89 that's been out all year. I'd be SHOCKED if they don't put in a SS this month sometime.m
No, no no! He could only be considered the greatest lefty EVER if you looked at Wins, innings, complete games and ERA. Randy Johnson and Lefty Grove have better WAR and that is all that matters here.
Wow so now it's you who make comments like this huh? I'm not saying I'd make it, because if you made me rank the top 4 he's 4th behind Koufax, Johnson, Grove. But of course the argument is compelling. Guy won 363 games, and was 114 games above .500. Led his league in wins 8 times, in a time when wins definitely carried more weight than they do today.
Lol...I am being silly. I think best lefties is hard because of those four guys they played in eras that were so different that to compare them statistically is meaningless. WAR being possibly the most meaningless stat when comparing guys across seasons, let alone eras
Best lefties is a pick between Grove, Spahn, Hubble, Koufax, Johnson, Kershaw maybe even Ford
Food for thought Johan Santana has better career WAR than Koufax. So much for WAR
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Phil Niekrooooo come on give us a knuckle baller lol
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Joe Carter... Literally hit a walk off homer to win the ws and doesn't have a SS card
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@BigJuicyMan69 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
Joe Carter... Literally hit a walk off homer to win the ws and doesn't have a SS card
lol...his WAR is too low.
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SS Derek Jeter
SS Curt Schilling
SS Pete Rose
SS Don Mattingly
SS Alex Rodriguez -
SS - Larry Walker
SS - Randy Johnson
SS - Pedro Martinez
SS - Micky Mantle
SS - Hank Aaron -
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@hegone44 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
In addition to Joe Carter the obvious SS is Warren Spahn. Dude was best lefty of his era. His elite wins total, ERA and Innings make him a stud from that era. Oh and he has a high WAR if you need just one stat.
I do worry that he won’t translate well in game. Not a hard thrower. He threw a lot of breaking stuff. He might get the Mathewson treatment
Could make a fairly compelling argument for him being the greatest LHP of all time, and he's only got that 89 that's been out all year. I'd be SHOCKED if they don't put in a SS this month sometime.m
No, no no! He could only be considered the greatest lefty EVER if you looked at Wins, innings, complete games and ERA. Randy Johnson and Lefty Grove have better WAR and that is all that matters here.
Now you're just instigating, lol. But seriously I'll argue this if need be, Wins are NOT relevant, and WAR is a useless stat for pitchers because how much you played matters way more than how successful you were. For example Lance Lynn and Mike Minor. Neither of those 2 should be considered among the elite pitchers right now, but they bother had higher WAR last year than every pitch except Verlander. The main reason being how many innings they pitched. FYI, Spahn's definitely top 5 or 6 with Carlton, Grove, Kershaw, Koufax, Big Unit.
I'd personally go 1. Koufax, 2 Johnson, 3. Carlton, 4. Grove, 5. Spahn and 6. Kershaw
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@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@hegone44 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@hegone44 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
In addition to Joe Carter the obvious SS is Warren Spahn. Dude was best lefty of his era. His elite wins total, ERA and Innings make him a stud from that era. Oh and he has a high WAR if you need just one stat.
I do worry that he won’t translate well in game. Not a hard thrower. He threw a lot of breaking stuff. He might get the Mathewson treatment
Could make a fairly compelling argument for him being the greatest LHP of all time, and he's only got that 89 that's been out all year. I'd be SHOCKED if they don't put in a SS this month sometime.m
No, no no! He could only be considered the greatest lefty EVER if you looked at Wins, innings, complete games and ERA. Randy Johnson and Lefty Grove have better WAR and that is all that matters here.
Wow so now it's you who make comments like this huh? I'm not saying I'd make it, because if you made me rank the top 4 he's 4th behind Koufax, Johnson, Grove. But of course the argument is compelling. Guy won 363 games, and was 114 games above .500. Led his league in wins 8 times, in a time when wins definitely carried more weight than they do today.
Lol...I am being silly. I think best lefties is hard because of those four guys they played in eras that were so different that to compare them statistically is meaningless. WAR being possibly the most meaningless stat when comparing guys across seasons, let alone eras
Best lefties is a pick between Grove, Spahn, Hubble, Koufax, Johnson, Kershaw maybe even Ford
Food for thought Johan Santana has better career WAR than Koufax. So much for WAR
Funny how you both left Carlton off your lists
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@DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@RonnieGant1992 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
Altuve....c'mon...gotta have a better Altuve.
Not really, no. His 2019 PS card is good enough.
The Altuve card would have the ability to know what pitch is coming.
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Zobrist, Betts, JD, Daniel Murphy, Cliff Lee
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@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@hegone44 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
In addition to Joe Carter the obvious SS is Warren Spahn. Dude was best lefty of his era. His elite wins total, ERA and Innings make him a stud from that era. Oh and he has a high WAR if you need just one stat.
I do worry that he won’t translate well in game. Not a hard thrower. He threw a lot of breaking stuff. He might get the Mathewson treatment
Could make a fairly compelling argument for him being the greatest LHP of all time, and he's only got that 89 that's been out all year. I'd be SHOCKED if they don't put in a SS this month sometime.m
No, no no! He could only be considered the greatest lefty EVER if you looked at Wins, innings, complete games and ERA. Randy Johnson and Lefty Grove have better WAR and that is all that matters here.
Randy Johnson had a higher FIP, xFIP, more Ks in over 1000 less innings, and a better k/9
All the stats I just used except 1 were easy to calculate and very real, so not your "imaginary" stats as some would call it.
Also, if you care about wins (hardly anyone still does) then Johnson had a far better win:loss ratio than Spahn in 132 less starts, also he won about half of his starts so in the same amount of starts as Spahn it would be very realistic to say he would've at least made up the ~50 wins he'd need.
Last 3. things:
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You made this post 10 days ago so I expect you to have forgotten about it and won't be too happy to have this in your Notis
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WAR is based around the actual stats by assigning acturate values to them, it is the most accurate tool for single stat player valie that we have
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I fully understand your post was to make a point but as the CEO of ruining fun jokes I had to intervene
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@BigJuicyMan69 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
Joe Carter... Literally hit a walk off homer to win the ws and doesn't have a SS card
His career is remembered because of that moment, and he has a card representing said moment. No SS is needed for him.
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