Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing
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@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
Carter .259
Hordon .258Carter 396 homers
Gordon 186 homerCarter 1445 RBI
Gordon 700 RBICarter 5x Allstatr
Gordon 3x all StarCarter 4 top 10 MVP finishes
Gordon 0 top 10 MVP finishesShould I keep going. Carter was am excellent player
None of those address the other half of the game that is defense. Gordon is literally twice as valuable for his teams.
I left out a lot. Carter was a better base runner. Carters defense was not terrible it was average. The gap in defense between the two is waaaaay smaller than the gap in offense. Keep in mind that Gordon was a defensive gem in the LEAST important defensive position.
It's just not true. If that was true, Gordon wouldn't have WAR twice as high as Carter.
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@DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
Carter .259
Hordon .258Carter 396 homers
Gordon 186 homerCarter 1445 RBI
Gordon 700 RBICarter 5x Allstatr
Gordon 3x all StarCarter 4 top 10 MVP finishes
Gordon 0 top 10 MVP finishesShould I keep going. Carter was am excellent player
None of those address the other half of the game that is defense. Gordon is literally twice as valuable for his teams.
This guy really just tried to use RBI, All-Star appearances, and MVP placement to justify one player having the better career over another lmao. The carter bias is most definitely on him, not us.
Yes me and the hall of fame do it all the time. You ONLy have a flawed WAR stat I gave you a bunch of stats. Listen we may just disagree. If WAR is you only basis, then you will be correct at least in your mind and all of those who are ignorant about the stat
I have sen them both play and this really isn’t a close argument for me...but carry on if you want
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@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
Carter .259
Hordon .258Carter 396 homers
Gordon 186 homerCarter 1445 RBI
Gordon 700 RBICarter 5x Allstatr
Gordon 3x all StarCarter 4 top 10 MVP finishes
Gordon 0 top 10 MVP finishesShould I keep going. Carter was am excellent player
None of those address the other half of the game that is defense. Gordon is literally twice as valuable for his teams.
This guy really just tried to use RBI, All-Star appearances, and MVP placement to justify one player having the better career over another lmao. The carter bias is most definitely on him, not us.
Yes me and the hall of fame do it all the time. You ONLy have a flawed WAR stat I gave you a bunch of stats. Listen we may just disagree. If WAR is you only basis, then you will be correct at least in your mind and all of those who are ignorant about the stat
I have sen them both play and this really isn’t a close argument for me...but carry on if you want
Look at my link before you call WAR a flawed stat...
Meanwhile you refer to all star appearances and rbis as some sort of an objective metric.
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@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
Carter .259
Hordon .258Carter 396 homers
Gordon 186 homerCarter 1445 RBI
Gordon 700 RBICarter 5x Allstatr
Gordon 3x all StarCarter 4 top 10 MVP finishes
Gordon 0 top 10 MVP finishesShould I keep going. Carter was am excellent player
None of those address the other half of the game that is defense. Gordon is literally twice as valuable for his teams.
I left out a lot. Carter was a better base runner. Carters defense was not terrible it was average. The gap in defense between the two is waaaaay smaller than the gap in offense. Keep in mind that Gordon was a defensive gem in the LEAST important defensive position.
It's just not true. If that was true, Gordon wouldn't have WAR twice as high as Carter.
Fact is Carter is better at almost every offensive stat other than WAR. So I am not going to argue.
But bottom line is that he is worthy of a SS the standard ain’t that high
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@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
Carter .259
Hordon .258Carter 396 homers
Gordon 186 homerCarter 1445 RBI
Gordon 700 RBICarter 5x Allstatr
Gordon 3x all StarCarter 4 top 10 MVP finishes
Gordon 0 top 10 MVP finishesShould I keep going. Carter was am excellent player
None of those address the other half of the game that is defense. Gordon is literally twice as valuable for his teams.
This guy really just tried to use RBI, All-Star appearances, and MVP placement to justify one player having the better career over another lmao. The carter bias is most definitely on him, not us.
Yes me and the hall of fame do it all the time. You ONLy have a flawed WAR stat I gave you a bunch of stats. Listen we may just disagree. If WAR is you only basis, then you will be correct at least in your mind and all of those who are ignorant about the stat
I have sen them both play and this really isn’t a close argument for me...but carry on if you want
Look at my link before you call WAR a flawed stat...
Meanwhile you refer to all stat appearances and rbis as some sort of an objective metric.
I hope you have the patience of a saint, because he will never comprehend that he’s wrong on this topic.
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@DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
Carter .259
Hordon .258Carter 396 homers
Gordon 186 homerCarter 1445 RBI
Gordon 700 RBICarter 5x Allstatr
Gordon 3x all StarCarter 4 top 10 MVP finishes
Gordon 0 top 10 MVP finishesShould I keep going. Carter was am excellent player
None of those address the other half of the game that is defense. Gordon is literally twice as valuable for his teams.
This guy really just tried to use RBI, All-Star appearances, and MVP placement to justify one player having the better career over another lmao. The carter bias is most definitely on him, not us.
Yes me and the hall of fame do it all the time. You ONLy have a flawed WAR stat I gave you a bunch of stats. Listen we may just disagree. If WAR is you only basis, then you will be correct at least in your mind and all of those who are ignorant about the stat
I have sen them both play and this really isn’t a close argument for me...but carry on if you want
Look at my link before you call WAR a flawed stat...
Meanwhile you refer to all stat appearances and rbis as some sort of an objective metric.
I hope you have the patience of a saint, because he will never comprehend that he’s wrong on this topic.
Nah I've made my case. I'll leave it for the other forum members to decide, who was the better player.
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So, going by fWAR the only outfielder that Joe Carter was better than that has a Signature Series card is Dante Bichette. And Bichette only has a card because the Rockies had basically nobody else this year.
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@DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
So, going by fWAR the only outfielder that Joe Carter was better than that has a Signature Series card is Dante Bichette. And Bichette only has a card because the Rockies had basically nobody else this year.
Your entire argument that Gordon is better is based on WAR. By ALL other metrics Carter is better. From a pure statistical analysis standpoint it is bad practice to have any argument hinge on one stat. You should triangulate your sources.
But to your larger argument about if carter is deserving you already pointed out that Ankiel and Bichette are lesser players. Steve Finley imo is ALSO a lesser player but his career WAR is higher so I know where you stand.
You look at WAR and say that is proof that Carter is inferior without looking at anything else
I look at Carters WAR and after watching him play and looking at other stats I say Carter is evidence that WAR is imperfect at best.
Unless your Carter regiment is about something other than WAR there is no pint because we have already had the WAR conversation we have different viewpoints and it got ugly last time so no point in continuing unless you have new info about WAR or other stats to show Carter isn’t deserving.
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I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant.
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@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant.
Okay, one last time.
WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player.
None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense.
Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant.
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I'm a lifelong Jays fan that watched every Jays game I could from 1989 to now. I watched Joe Carter his entire career and I can tell you, he is very overrated.
He has a career 105 OPS+, as evidenced by his brutal .306 lifetime OBP. That is terrible. He was also slightly below average defensively and his baserunning was good but not even remotely game changing.
You could stick anyone hitting 4th in Toronto between 1991-1995 and they would collect over 100 RBI. He benifitted from hitting in stacked lineups his whole career. But he was always the weak link in the middle of those orders.
All of this any baseball expert knows. But the uneducated fan who reads the back of baseball cards think he was near HOF worthy. He was not. His homerun in 1993 is. And his final out in 1992.
Other than that, Joltin' Joe had huge flaws that hurt teams sometimes more than they helped. He swung at everything... -
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant.
Okay, one last time.
WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player.
None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense.
Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant.
WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout.
Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team
To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon.
Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that. -
@Nanthrax_1 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
I'm a lifelong Jays fan that watched every Jays game I could from 1989 to now. I watched Joe Carter his entire career and I can tell you, he is very overrated.
He has a career 105 OPS+, as evidenced by his brutal .306 lifetime OBP. That is terrible. He was also slightly below average defensively and his baserunning was good but not even remotely game changing.
You could stick anyone hitting 4th in Toronto between 1991-1995 and they would collect over 100 RBI. He benifitted from hitting in stacked lineups his whole career. But he was always the weak link in the middle of those orders.
All of this any baseball expert knows. But the uneducated fan who reads the back of baseball cards think he was near HOF worthy. He was not. His homerun in 1993 is. And his final out in 1992.
Other than that, Joltin' Joe had huge flaws that hurt teams sometimes more than they helped. He swung at everything...well said and lets just all continue to love Carter for the champ 125 clutch that he was back then....
on another note, no one is talking about giving ROY HALLIDAY a SS - he is deffffffffff worthy
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@TheHungryHole said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
I'm a lifelong Jays fan that watched every Jays game I could from 1989 to now. I watched Joe Carter his entire career and I can tell you, he is very overrated.
He has a career 105 OPS+, as evidenced by his brutal .306 lifetime OBP. That is terrible. He was also slightly below average defensively and his baserunning was good but not even remotely game changing.
You could stick anyone hitting 4th in Toronto between 1991-1995 and they would collect over 100 RBI. He benifitted from hitting in stacked lineups his whole career. But he was always the weak link in the middle of those orders.
All of this any baseball expert knows. But the uneducated fan who reads the back of baseball cards think he was near HOF worthy. He was not. His homerun in 1993 is. And his final out in 1992.
Other than that, Joltin' Joe had huge flaws that hurt teams sometimes more than they helped. He swung at everything...well said and lets just all continue to love Carter for the champ 125 clutch that he was back then....
on another note, no one is talking about giving ROY HALLIDAY a SS - he is deffffffffff worthy
Well they don’t have the rights to Halladay. If they did he
should get a SS. They have Carter and he is the last legend of the original group who doesn’t have a SS. Meanwhile lesser player do -
SS. Bryce Harper
SS. Manny Machado
SS. Andrew Jones
SS. Justin Turner
SS. Aaron Judge
SS. Rob Dibble
SS. Jason Giambi
SS. Brett Gardner
SS. Joe Carter
SS. Jake Arrieta
SS. Wharen Spahn -
@kevinsullivan15 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
SS. Bryce Harper
SS. Manny Machado
SS. Andrew Jones
SS. Justin Turner
SS. Aaron Judge
SS. Rob Dibble
SS. Jason Giambi
SS. Brett Gardner
SS. Joe Carter
SS. Jake Arrieta
SS. Wharen SpahnJudge? Really? He has only played for 2 and a half seasons
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@kevinsullivan15 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
SS. Bryce Harper
SS. Manny Machado
SS. Andrew Jones
SS. Justin Turner
SS. Aaron Judge
SS. Rob Dibble
SS. Jason Giambi
SS. Brett Gardner
SS. Joe Carter
SS. Jake Arrieta
SS. Wharen SpahnBad list.
Harper already has a Finest, Machado doesn’t need an SS card, Justin turner certainly does not deserve an SS card, Judge hasn’t played anywhere near long enough, and Jake Arrieta has only had one amazing season with a couple other decent ones around it. And the reasons against Joe Carter are mentioned above.
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@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant.
Okay, one last time.
WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player.
None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense.
Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant.
WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout.
Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team
To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon.
Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that.You are so wrong.
I already posted a link explaining why WAR is the best stat to compare players.
Do you realise that it's harder to produce a higher dWAR in LF than in CF or SS? Same goes for RF. LF and RF are actually quite comparable in their dWAR value.
Now, go look a Carter's career dWAR... it was -15.7! The man was a terrible defender... and the numbers show that.
Joe Carter was also never the amazing batter you claim him to have been... his OPS ranged in the .700s and low .800s... He never had a single elite season in his entire career. Not in terms of OPS or WAR.
RBI is an absolutely useless stat in comparing players cos you might have a guy hitting countless easy sac flies over someone who never has anyone on base when he bats. Absolutely arbitrary stat.
You also greatly overstate the baserunning value of Carter.
Meanwhile Gordon's OPS numbers range in the same ballpark as Carter's. Only here's the difference:
Gordon's dWAR for his career is plus 8.6, at a position in which it is notoriously difficult to produce additional wins.
Gordon is and was objectively the better player.
With this, I rest my case.
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@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant.
Okay, one last time.
WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player.
None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense.
Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant.
WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout.
Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team
To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon.
Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that.You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats!
Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser..
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Well once again you only use WAR as your justification. You roped in OPS which btw OPS is just another stat where joe Carter is superior.
But anyway we agree to disagree.
Warren Spahn is another guy who clearly should get a SS in this gsme
