Your browser does not seem to support JavaScript. As a result, your viewing experience will be diminished, and you have been placed in read-only mode.
Please download a browser that supports JavaScript, or enable it if it's disabled (i.e. NoScript).
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant. Okay, one last time. WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player. None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense. Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant. WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout. Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon. Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that. You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats! Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser.. Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either. Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial.
@MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant. Okay, one last time. WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player. None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense. Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant. WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout. Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon. Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that. You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats! Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser..
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant. Okay, one last time. WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player. None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense. Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant. WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout. Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon. Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that.
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant. Okay, one last time. WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player. None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense. Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant.
I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant.
Okay, one last time.
WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player.
None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense.
Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant.
WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout.
Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team
To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon. Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that.
You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats!
Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser..
Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed
You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians
WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either.
Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts
I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial.
The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)).
OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s).
Defensively they arent remotely comparable.
You're missing the point that it is extremely difficult to provide additional wins into WAR and dWAR as a left fielder, but Gordon did. Meanwhile, Carter actually played under replacement level and actually cost his team games with his defense...
Why do you think Keith Hernandez' career dWAR is 1.3? Because although he was a great fielder, it is very difficult to provide additional defensive wins as a 1B. The fact that Gordon was able to produce 8.6 defensive wins based on dWAR as a left fielder is actually very impressive and shows that he actually had a net-positive impact there (unlike Carter).
Lastly, Bill James (not Will) is not the creator of WAR but win shares. He criticises WAR sure but how about you go to him and present your analysis between Carter and Gordon based on RBIs, stolen bases and all star appearances... Wonder what he would say to that....
Before you comment, please read over the entire post.
I will first acknowledge that this is based on my own experiences and the data that I have gathered. That data largely refers to post game PCI analysis sheets, which is not a perfect tool, but is the best that is available to us in terms of being able to objectively analyse our own performance.
I will also acknowledge that the competition in ranked seasons has gotten tougher as the life-cycle of the game is nearing its end - this should result in closer games and probably leaves the window more open for the winner to be determined by RNG instead of user skill.
However, what transpired yesterday got me thinking again that there might be more to it than just randomness.
You can find my gamelogs from yesterday from the old site and you can look at what happened. I started off ranked 837. Proceeded to lose 4 games in a row - the last of which I quit after 2 innings as I no longer had any bullpen arms with energy and it did not make sense to attempt to make a comeback. I had dropped from 837 to 750 in four games. I then won two games in a row to get me back to 825.
GAME 1
I lost 7 - 8
I struck out 3 times to his 8. I will be able to post the PCI analysis sheets once I get home, but suffice to say that I had probably 3 times as many 15's as my opponent.
Here's how the game started
"Impact batting. Grove pitching. Suzuki reached first on a fielding error by Wagner on a deflected hit (E6) [Yes that is Honus]. Hornsby hit to left for a single [bloop]. Suzuki advances to 2nd. Yelich flied out to Griffey Jr. (F7). Hornsby was caught stealing. Suzuki reached 3rd. Guerrero struck out but reached first after it was dropped (WP) [how else?]. Fielder lined to center for a single. Suzuki scores. Guerrero scores.* Thomas homered to left (433 feet)[Hit chance 7 way outside the zone, I cannot explain how he went 433 ft on it]. Fielder scores. "
So you have two guys on base that shouldn't be on base from an error by Honus and a swinging strikeout that was dropped by Piazza (yes, Piazza sucks defensively, but the ball hit his [censored] chest and went into his armpit). Then he homers with Thomas with a 7 hit chance swing inside and over the zone 433 ft. Okay.
But okay, I lost a close game that IMO shouldn't even have been a close game based on the PCI analysis.
GAME 2
I give up 5 runs to get the game started, no gripes - my opponent hit well. I load the bases in the bottom of the first with no outs but then proceed to pop up and hit a good/squared into a hard double play, no runs scored [okay, surely this has to be rare at least].
In the third inning this happens:
"FUBAR batting. Feller walked. Wagner lined to right for a single. Feller advances to 2nd. Alomar lined out to Bobo (L6). Griffey Jr. grounded to center for a single (8-2). Feller out. [look at this closely, the ball went down the middle, but Feller decides not to run, but to walk to third base - doesn't make it there in time]. Wagner advances to 2nd. Mays flied out to Bellinger (F9) [at the fence, good times]."
Fourth Inning:
"FUBAR batting. Bellinger grounded to center for a single. Bregman lined to right for a single. Bellinger advances to 2nd. Eckersley in bullpen. Hader in bullpen. Gehrig doubled to center. Bellinger scores. Bregman advances to 3rd. Rodriguez walked [again bases loaded no outs]. Jones pinch hit for Feller. Jones grounded into a double play (4-6-3 DP) [another good/squared into a double play, yay - now this must be freakishly unlucky right? No way this could happen for a third time?]. Rodriguez out. Bregman scores. Gehrig advances to 3rd. Wagner struck out chasing an inside fastball."
Fifth inning:
"FUBAR batting. Miller in bullpen. Alomar lined out to Mays (L8). Griffey Jr. walked. Mays lined to right for a single. Griffey Jr. advances to 2nd. Bellinger grounded to left for a single. Griffey Jr. advances to 3rd. Mays advances to 2nd. Bregman walked. Griffey Jr. scores. Gehrig walked. Mays scores. Eckersley pitching. Rodriguez flied out to Mays (F8). Ruth pinch hit for Wagner. Hader pitching. Ruth flied out to Mays (F8)[Mays robs Ruth's good/squared hit homer - I'm pretty much broken at this point]"
I load the bases again in the 6th but score no runs as I line out.
He demolishes me in the 9th for 5 runs as I bring in guys with half energy - anything hit "okay" is gone. Ahwell. I lose 12 - 5. Final PCI analysis shows that I have twice as many 15's but it is what it is.
GAME 3
I strike out more, he abuses me with high sinkers, not much to complain here. I lose 6-3.
GAME 4
Verlander gives 6 runs on some iffy contact in the 2nd inning, but ahwell, I was actually happy with how I was locating my pitches. I already know that I need a miracle as I really needed JV to go deep. I had no bullpen arms with any energy left.
Here's what happens:
"FUBAR batting. Bellinger doubled to center. Bregman hit to right for a single. Bellinger advances to 3rd. Gehrig lined to left for a single. Bellinger scores. Bregman advances to 2nd. Rodriguez grounded to right for a single. Bregman advances to 3rd. Gehrig advances to 2nd. Jones pinch hit for Verlander. Hendriks in bullpen. Miller in bullpen. Jones popped out on an infield fly rule to Ripken Jr. (P). Wagner grounded into a double play (6-4-3 DP)[my third good/squared into a double-play - I almost break my controller]. Rodriguez out." - Looking back at it even if I had cleared the bases with Wagner it probably wouldn't have mattered as I wouldn't have been able to pitch at all with my out-of-energy guys, but it didn't make it any less infuriating at the time.
GAME 5:
Here's where things get interesting. I now play vs. someone with a better record than myself.
He now runs into several hard double-plays, I get on base on fielding errors, he gets 7 hits with no runs, I score 7 runs and he quits after the 6th. Hmm okay.
GAME 6:
I'm now playing someone with a significantly better record, currently sitting at around 130 all time. The guy clearly knows what he's doing, but Kershaw somehow shuts him down. He has more 15's than I do, but it doesn't matter as he keeps lining out. I win 5-3.
Now what is my point?
I believe its more than just RNG - I think the game gives the lesser player (however that is evaluated) more breaks in order to keep games closer than what they should be. I believe that I've been the victim of this at times but I also believe that I have benefited from this as in my last game.
What do you think? Is it just random, or is there more to it?
What I have noticed, and you may call this a conspiracy if you like, that it is much easier to paint the corners when playing vs. players with similar or better records than yourself. The worse record your opponent has, the more you are going to be wild and miss your pitches, even on perfect input.
@raesONE said in Why not just try to get better?:
A while ago I was in a deep BR run, and I played a free swinging guy who fit the profile you just described. I struck his Mondesi out with an offspeed pitch, since he was sitting heat all the way, and of course he reached 1st on a passed ball. Then the game within the game started. I was already annoyed that he reached on a K, and knew he was stealing at some point. So he took a step every single time and I threw it over to 1st every single time. Then he messaged me all angry saying "PITCH THE BALL SMH", which I replied to with saying "yeah I will once you stop taking that step". I'm not lying, this sequence continued for about 15 minutes before my pitcher decided to throw it behind the 1B on the 1000th pickoff move, giving him second base. Either way my point is this: The guy takes an extra step, I react to that by not pitching the ball but attempt a pickoff move. After this keeps going, he gets angry with me, as if I'm the toxic player in this situation? So basically he wants me to just give up second base to him. I get really annoyed with people like this. Sure, I won't do this every single time someone takes a lead. But if I notice you're one of those guys, I most definitely will. Want me to stop throwing over? Stop taking an extra step and stop blaming me. It's that simple.
A while ago I was in a deep BR run, and I played a free swinging guy who fit the profile you just described. I struck his Mondesi out with an offspeed pitch, since he was sitting heat all the way, and of course he reached 1st on a passed ball.
Then the game within the game started. I was already annoyed that he reached on a K, and knew he was stealing at some point. So he took a step every single time and I threw it over to 1st every single time. Then he messaged me all angry saying "PITCH THE BALL SMH", which I replied to with saying "yeah I will once you stop taking that step". I'm not lying, this sequence continued for about 15 minutes before my pitcher decided to throw it behind the 1B on the 1000th pickoff move, giving him second base.
Either way my point is this: The guy takes an extra step, I react to that by not pitching the ball but attempt a pickoff move. After this keeps going, he gets angry with me, as if I'm the toxic player in this situation? So basically he wants me to just give up second base to him. I get really annoyed with people like this.
Sure, I won't do this every single time someone takes a lead. But if I notice you're one of those guys, I most definitely will. Want me to stop throwing over? Stop taking an extra step and stop blaming me. It's that simple.
This confuses me as well - and it's certainly not the first time I've heard/seen this happen.
A substantial part of the playerbase seems to think that you should give them the extra lead and that any attempt at combating it is toxic. As if the game doesn't already give the runner a lead. To give any extra steps equals to giving a free extra base...
@cvogsfashow said in Lack of consistency needs to be addressed:
@Maverick31762 said in Lack of consistency needs to be addressed: @cvogsfashow said in Lack of consistency needs to be addressed: @GOtexas1 said in Lack of consistency needs to be addressed: MLBTS 18 and 19 have epitomized mediocrity... at best. I know that this complaint is getting repetitive, but we need to go back to the MLBTS 16, and prior days, where user input was much more consistent. I'm a fan of having a game that is playable for everyone. However, having ambiguous outcomes isn't a good long term solution. The problem with 16 was the fact that if you put the PCI on the ball with good timing it was a hr almost every time, which isn't realistic at all. I don’t know about that but 17 was real good The above is a joke right? 17 was a terrible game to play. Just late be great!
@Maverick31762 said in Lack of consistency needs to be addressed:
@cvogsfashow said in Lack of consistency needs to be addressed: @GOtexas1 said in Lack of consistency needs to be addressed: MLBTS 18 and 19 have epitomized mediocrity... at best. I know that this complaint is getting repetitive, but we need to go back to the MLBTS 16, and prior days, where user input was much more consistent. I'm a fan of having a game that is playable for everyone. However, having ambiguous outcomes isn't a good long term solution. The problem with 16 was the fact that if you put the PCI on the ball with good timing it was a hr almost every time, which isn't realistic at all. I don’t know about that but 17 was real good
@GOtexas1 said in Lack of consistency needs to be addressed: MLBTS 18 and 19 have epitomized mediocrity... at best. I know that this complaint is getting repetitive, but we need to go back to the MLBTS 16, and prior days, where user input was much more consistent. I'm a fan of having a game that is playable for everyone. However, having ambiguous outcomes isn't a good long term solution. The problem with 16 was the fact that if you put the PCI on the ball with good timing it was a hr almost every time, which isn't realistic at all.
@GOtexas1 said in Lack of consistency needs to be addressed:
MLBTS 18 and 19 have epitomized mediocrity... at best. I know that this complaint is getting repetitive, but we need to go back to the MLBTS 16, and prior days, where user input was much more consistent. I'm a fan of having a game that is playable for everyone. However, having ambiguous outcomes isn't a good long term solution.
The problem with 16 was the fact that if you put the PCI on the ball with good timing it was a hr almost every time, which isn't realistic at all.
I don’t know about that but 17 was real good
The above is a joke right? 17 was a terrible game to play. Just late be great!
I suppose it's all relative... I'd rather have the gameplay of 17 over the gameplay of 19...
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant. Okay, one last time. WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player. None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense. Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant. WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout. Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon. Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that. You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats! Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser.. Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either. Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial. The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)). OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s). Defensively they arent remotely comparable. You're missing the point that it is extremely difficult to provide additional wins into WAR and dWAR as a left fielder, but Gordon did. Meanwhile, Carter actually played under replacement level and actually cost his team games with his defense... Why do you think Keith Hernandez' career dWAR is 1.3? Because although he was a great fielder, it is very difficult to provide additional defensive wins as a 1B. The fact that Gordon was able to produce 8.6 defensive wins based on dWAR as a left fielder is actually very impressive and shows that he actually had a net-positive impact there (unlike Carter). Lastly, Bill James (not Will) is not the creator of WAR but win shares. He criticises WAR sure but how about you go to him and present your analysis between Carter and Gordon based on RBIs, stolen bases and all star appearances... Wonder what he would say to that.... We just disagree about the use of WAR as a singular stat. I think that ANY singular stat RBI, homers, BA etc is not as good as a full statistical analysis. I am not using ONE stat. When triangulating the data which any statistician on the planet would say is a better method of analyzing data than looking at any one stat you get a better idea of the player. Here are some facts Carter is better stats in the following: Homeruns (career, single season, per AB), RBI (career, single season, per AB), Steals (career, single season, per AB), hits (career, single season, per AB), Triples (career, single season, per AB), Runs (career, single season, per AB), BA (career) Slugging (career, single season) - number of .500 SLG season OPS (career, single season) - number of .800 OPS seasons OPS+ (career) All-Star selections Top 10 MVP selections Gordon played a great LF and a horrible 3B WAR is a not a perfect stat. Here are a few articles that touch on it WAR article lThis WAR article touches other aspects of it that might directly impact this comparison Here is an example of how BAD a stat WAR can be and you can find TONS when you start to look. Take a look at 1994 Carter G AB R. H HR. RBI. SB BA. OBP. SLG. OPS 1994 34 TOR AL 111 435 70 118 27 103 11. .271 .317 .524 .841 I think its fair to say that a season like this that got him a top 10 MVP finish and an all star selection is not something that any typical replacement player could have pulled off. Clearly baseball people realize it was a great season thus the All Star selection and MVP votes. Those are good numbers. But according to WAR this won't even get you an extra win as the WAR for this season was 0.7. This is in large part due to his -1.6 dWAR. Wow such a bad dWAR you would think he was making tons of errors. Nope only 2 errors. So I guess he was missing balls? Really? won't get into how that is measured in WAR but it is VERY subjective. Realistically, I'm not even writing this to you, but the other forum members, because I know nothing can make you change your mind. Here is how baseball reference calculates defensive WAR: W-L% = ((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player))/((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player) + ((League Runs/Game / 2)- Player Defensive Runs)^(Runs/Game involving Player)) DWAA = (W-L% - .5) * Games Played DWRSE = Player Defensive Runs / ((2 * (league Runs/Game)^.715) - (2 * (Runs per Game involving Player)^.715)) DWAR = DWAA + DWRSE How much do you think this has to do with how many errors Carter committed? How valuable do you think a player that never commits an error but covers an area the size of a basketball is to a team? You've decided that WAR is somehow an arbitrary stat but how about we put this thing to a vote here? How many people do you think will vote for Carter? No, I don't think its arbitrary. I think it has a certain value. Just NOT enough value to overrule every other statistical measure. Also in the dWAR calculation you did not explain how the other stats are created. Also if you REALLY think DWar is accurate that means you think Cal Ripken Jr. is the greatest the 3rd greatest defensive player of all-time. Listen Cal was a solid defensive player but only an idiot would actually think he is the third best defensive player of all time. You also have to think Gary Carter is the second best defensive catcher of all-time. Once again....not knocking Carters defense it was good. But I think this shows how the stat might be flawed. D-War has Andrew Jones the greatest defensive CF, not Mays, not Mantle, not Devon White, not Griffey, not Tris Speaker But its whatever, I don't feel like breaking down why WAR and dWAR especially is a very weak stat and an argument about a players value shouldn't be based ONLY on it. You know why dWAR has Andruw Jones a better defender than Griffey, Speaker, Mantle or White? It's because he was. Ripken benefits from a long career full of full seasons played, but he is still way behind Ozzie and Andrelton Simmons will overtake him. Who should be clearly ahead of him? Vizquel? His defensive metrics are still well reflected in dWAR. Who should be ahead of Gary Carter but isn't? Also, this is such a far stretch of my argument (dare I say that it's a straw man?). We're not talking about the order of all time defensive greats and whether they align perfectly in terms of defensive WAR. They won't. But there is no all time defensive great that doesnt have dWAR significantly on the plus side. It works that way because overall dWAR still works to differentiate poor defenders from good ones. Joe Carter was a terrible fielder who was a net-negative for his teams as a defender. Gordon was the opposite. of course that is a circular argument. He was a better fielder because he had a better dWar. but anyway...is Ripken the third greatest defensive player of all time can you attempt to say that honestly. I don't even think he is like the 4th best SS I have ever seen. Johnny Bench, Fisk and Yadi Molina should be ahead of Carter just off the top of my head Also yes, DWar is not a total waste and yes good defenders seem to pop up on the list. But great hitters seem to pop up on the all time hit list but we both can agree we would not use that measure alone to say who the great hitters are. I am not arguing against WAR. I am arguing against the singular use of WAR and dWAR Okay, here: According to fangraphs Joe Carter's fielding value was -86 and defensive value was -175.7. Alex Gordon's fielding value is 84.2 and defensive value 27.4. Literally on any metric Carter was an awful defender who cost his teams games on that side of the ball. Well first you are misinterpreting WAR. He didn't cost his team games. It means that the average player during that time made that much of a difference. Furthermore, its a comparative stat. He could have been bad in an era when there were tons of good LF....like a Bonds. It also could mean that the manager did a bad job of where he positioned him or that he played in difficult LF...like Fenway and Yankee stadium. There are sooo many flaws to the measure that it just doesn't say much. And if you really think Joe Carter was Soooo bad on defense it nullified his offense that is silly on its face. How many balls went out to left that he made a bad play on vs the over 100 times he was able to drive a hitter in a season.
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant. Okay, one last time. WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player. None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense. Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant. WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout. Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon. Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that. You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats! Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser.. Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either. Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial. The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)). OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s). Defensively they arent remotely comparable. You're missing the point that it is extremely difficult to provide additional wins into WAR and dWAR as a left fielder, but Gordon did. Meanwhile, Carter actually played under replacement level and actually cost his team games with his defense... Why do you think Keith Hernandez' career dWAR is 1.3? Because although he was a great fielder, it is very difficult to provide additional defensive wins as a 1B. The fact that Gordon was able to produce 8.6 defensive wins based on dWAR as a left fielder is actually very impressive and shows that he actually had a net-positive impact there (unlike Carter). Lastly, Bill James (not Will) is not the creator of WAR but win shares. He criticises WAR sure but how about you go to him and present your analysis between Carter and Gordon based on RBIs, stolen bases and all star appearances... Wonder what he would say to that.... We just disagree about the use of WAR as a singular stat. I think that ANY singular stat RBI, homers, BA etc is not as good as a full statistical analysis. I am not using ONE stat. When triangulating the data which any statistician on the planet would say is a better method of analyzing data than looking at any one stat you get a better idea of the player. Here are some facts Carter is better stats in the following: Homeruns (career, single season, per AB), RBI (career, single season, per AB), Steals (career, single season, per AB), hits (career, single season, per AB), Triples (career, single season, per AB), Runs (career, single season, per AB), BA (career) Slugging (career, single season) - number of .500 SLG season OPS (career, single season) - number of .800 OPS seasons OPS+ (career) All-Star selections Top 10 MVP selections Gordon played a great LF and a horrible 3B WAR is a not a perfect stat. Here are a few articles that touch on it WAR article lThis WAR article touches other aspects of it that might directly impact this comparison Here is an example of how BAD a stat WAR can be and you can find TONS when you start to look. Take a look at 1994 Carter G AB R. H HR. RBI. SB BA. OBP. SLG. OPS 1994 34 TOR AL 111 435 70 118 27 103 11. .271 .317 .524 .841 I think its fair to say that a season like this that got him a top 10 MVP finish and an all star selection is not something that any typical replacement player could have pulled off. Clearly baseball people realize it was a great season thus the All Star selection and MVP votes. Those are good numbers. But according to WAR this won't even get you an extra win as the WAR for this season was 0.7. This is in large part due to his -1.6 dWAR. Wow such a bad dWAR you would think he was making tons of errors. Nope only 2 errors. So I guess he was missing balls? Really? won't get into how that is measured in WAR but it is VERY subjective. Realistically, I'm not even writing this to you, but the other forum members, because I know nothing can make you change your mind. Here is how baseball reference calculates defensive WAR: W-L% = ((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player))/((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player) + ((League Runs/Game / 2)- Player Defensive Runs)^(Runs/Game involving Player)) DWAA = (W-L% - .5) * Games Played DWRSE = Player Defensive Runs / ((2 * (league Runs/Game)^.715) - (2 * (Runs per Game involving Player)^.715)) DWAR = DWAA + DWRSE How much do you think this has to do with how many errors Carter committed? How valuable do you think a player that never commits an error but covers an area the size of a basketball is to a team? You've decided that WAR is somehow an arbitrary stat but how about we put this thing to a vote here? How many people do you think will vote for Carter? No, I don't think its arbitrary. I think it has a certain value. Just NOT enough value to overrule every other statistical measure. Also in the dWAR calculation you did not explain how the other stats are created. Also if you REALLY think DWar is accurate that means you think Cal Ripken Jr. is the greatest the 3rd greatest defensive player of all-time. Listen Cal was a solid defensive player but only an idiot would actually think he is the third best defensive player of all time. You also have to think Gary Carter is the second best defensive catcher of all-time. Once again....not knocking Carters defense it was good. But I think this shows how the stat might be flawed. D-War has Andrew Jones the greatest defensive CF, not Mays, not Mantle, not Devon White, not Griffey, not Tris Speaker But its whatever, I don't feel like breaking down why WAR and dWAR especially is a very weak stat and an argument about a players value shouldn't be based ONLY on it. You know why dWAR has Andruw Jones a better defender than Griffey, Speaker, Mantle or White? It's because he was. Ripken benefits from a long career full of full seasons played, but he is still way behind Ozzie and Andrelton Simmons will overtake him. Who should be clearly ahead of him? Vizquel? His defensive metrics are still well reflected in dWAR. Who should be ahead of Gary Carter but isn't? Also, this is such a far stretch of my argument (dare I say that it's a straw man?). We're not talking about the order of all time defensive greats and whether they align perfectly in terms of defensive WAR. They won't. But there is no all time defensive great that doesnt have dWAR significantly on the plus side. It works that way because overall dWAR still works to differentiate poor defenders from good ones. Joe Carter was a terrible fielder who was a net-negative for his teams as a defender. Gordon was the opposite. of course that is a circular argument. He was a better fielder because he had a better dWar. but anyway...is Ripken the third greatest defensive player of all time can you attempt to say that honestly. I don't even think he is like the 4th best SS I have ever seen. Johnny Bench, Fisk and Yadi Molina should be ahead of Carter just off the top of my head Also yes, DWar is not a total waste and yes good defenders seem to pop up on the list. But great hitters seem to pop up on the all time hit list but we both can agree we would not use that measure alone to say who the great hitters are. I am not arguing against WAR. I am arguing against the singular use of WAR and dWAR Okay, here: According to fangraphs Joe Carter's fielding value was -86 and defensive value was -175.7. Alex Gordon's fielding value is 84.2 and defensive value 27.4. Literally on any metric Carter was an awful defender who cost his teams games on that side of the ball.
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant. Okay, one last time. WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player. None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense. Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant. WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout. Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon. Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that. You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats! Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser.. Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either. Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial. The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)). OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s). Defensively they arent remotely comparable. You're missing the point that it is extremely difficult to provide additional wins into WAR and dWAR as a left fielder, but Gordon did. Meanwhile, Carter actually played under replacement level and actually cost his team games with his defense... Why do you think Keith Hernandez' career dWAR is 1.3? Because although he was a great fielder, it is very difficult to provide additional defensive wins as a 1B. The fact that Gordon was able to produce 8.6 defensive wins based on dWAR as a left fielder is actually very impressive and shows that he actually had a net-positive impact there (unlike Carter). Lastly, Bill James (not Will) is not the creator of WAR but win shares. He criticises WAR sure but how about you go to him and present your analysis between Carter and Gordon based on RBIs, stolen bases and all star appearances... Wonder what he would say to that.... We just disagree about the use of WAR as a singular stat. I think that ANY singular stat RBI, homers, BA etc is not as good as a full statistical analysis. I am not using ONE stat. When triangulating the data which any statistician on the planet would say is a better method of analyzing data than looking at any one stat you get a better idea of the player. Here are some facts Carter is better stats in the following: Homeruns (career, single season, per AB), RBI (career, single season, per AB), Steals (career, single season, per AB), hits (career, single season, per AB), Triples (career, single season, per AB), Runs (career, single season, per AB), BA (career) Slugging (career, single season) - number of .500 SLG season OPS (career, single season) - number of .800 OPS seasons OPS+ (career) All-Star selections Top 10 MVP selections Gordon played a great LF and a horrible 3B WAR is a not a perfect stat. Here are a few articles that touch on it WAR article lThis WAR article touches other aspects of it that might directly impact this comparison Here is an example of how BAD a stat WAR can be and you can find TONS when you start to look. Take a look at 1994 Carter G AB R. H HR. RBI. SB BA. OBP. SLG. OPS 1994 34 TOR AL 111 435 70 118 27 103 11. .271 .317 .524 .841 I think its fair to say that a season like this that got him a top 10 MVP finish and an all star selection is not something that any typical replacement player could have pulled off. Clearly baseball people realize it was a great season thus the All Star selection and MVP votes. Those are good numbers. But according to WAR this won't even get you an extra win as the WAR for this season was 0.7. This is in large part due to his -1.6 dWAR. Wow such a bad dWAR you would think he was making tons of errors. Nope only 2 errors. So I guess he was missing balls? Really? won't get into how that is measured in WAR but it is VERY subjective. Realistically, I'm not even writing this to you, but the other forum members, because I know nothing can make you change your mind. Here is how baseball reference calculates defensive WAR: W-L% = ((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player))/((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player) + ((League Runs/Game / 2)- Player Defensive Runs)^(Runs/Game involving Player)) DWAA = (W-L% - .5) * Games Played DWRSE = Player Defensive Runs / ((2 * (league Runs/Game)^.715) - (2 * (Runs per Game involving Player)^.715)) DWAR = DWAA + DWRSE How much do you think this has to do with how many errors Carter committed? How valuable do you think a player that never commits an error but covers an area the size of a basketball is to a team? You've decided that WAR is somehow an arbitrary stat but how about we put this thing to a vote here? How many people do you think will vote for Carter? No, I don't think its arbitrary. I think it has a certain value. Just NOT enough value to overrule every other statistical measure. Also in the dWAR calculation you did not explain how the other stats are created. Also if you REALLY think DWar is accurate that means you think Cal Ripken Jr. is the greatest the 3rd greatest defensive player of all-time. Listen Cal was a solid defensive player but only an idiot would actually think he is the third best defensive player of all time. You also have to think Gary Carter is the second best defensive catcher of all-time. Once again....not knocking Carters defense it was good. But I think this shows how the stat might be flawed. D-War has Andrew Jones the greatest defensive CF, not Mays, not Mantle, not Devon White, not Griffey, not Tris Speaker But its whatever, I don't feel like breaking down why WAR and dWAR especially is a very weak stat and an argument about a players value shouldn't be based ONLY on it. You know why dWAR has Andruw Jones a better defender than Griffey, Speaker, Mantle or White? It's because he was. Ripken benefits from a long career full of full seasons played, but he is still way behind Ozzie and Andrelton Simmons will overtake him. Who should be clearly ahead of him? Vizquel? His defensive metrics are still well reflected in dWAR. Who should be ahead of Gary Carter but isn't? Also, this is such a far stretch of my argument (dare I say that it's a straw man?). We're not talking about the order of all time defensive greats and whether they align perfectly in terms of defensive WAR. They won't. But there is no all time defensive great that doesnt have dWAR significantly on the plus side. It works that way because overall dWAR still works to differentiate poor defenders from good ones. Joe Carter was a terrible fielder who was a net-negative for his teams as a defender. Gordon was the opposite. of course that is a circular argument. He was a better fielder because he had a better dWar. but anyway...is Ripken the third greatest defensive player of all time can you attempt to say that honestly. I don't even think he is like the 4th best SS I have ever seen. Johnny Bench, Fisk and Yadi Molina should be ahead of Carter just off the top of my head Also yes, DWar is not a total waste and yes good defenders seem to pop up on the list. But great hitters seem to pop up on the all time hit list but we both can agree we would not use that measure alone to say who the great hitters are. I am not arguing against WAR. I am arguing against the singular use of WAR and dWAR
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant. Okay, one last time. WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player. None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense. Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant. WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout. Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon. Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that. You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats! Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser.. Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either. Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial. The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)). OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s). Defensively they arent remotely comparable. You're missing the point that it is extremely difficult to provide additional wins into WAR and dWAR as a left fielder, but Gordon did. Meanwhile, Carter actually played under replacement level and actually cost his team games with his defense... Why do you think Keith Hernandez' career dWAR is 1.3? Because although he was a great fielder, it is very difficult to provide additional defensive wins as a 1B. The fact that Gordon was able to produce 8.6 defensive wins based on dWAR as a left fielder is actually very impressive and shows that he actually had a net-positive impact there (unlike Carter). Lastly, Bill James (not Will) is not the creator of WAR but win shares. He criticises WAR sure but how about you go to him and present your analysis between Carter and Gordon based on RBIs, stolen bases and all star appearances... Wonder what he would say to that.... We just disagree about the use of WAR as a singular stat. I think that ANY singular stat RBI, homers, BA etc is not as good as a full statistical analysis. I am not using ONE stat. When triangulating the data which any statistician on the planet would say is a better method of analyzing data than looking at any one stat you get a better idea of the player. Here are some facts Carter is better stats in the following: Homeruns (career, single season, per AB), RBI (career, single season, per AB), Steals (career, single season, per AB), hits (career, single season, per AB), Triples (career, single season, per AB), Runs (career, single season, per AB), BA (career) Slugging (career, single season) - number of .500 SLG season OPS (career, single season) - number of .800 OPS seasons OPS+ (career) All-Star selections Top 10 MVP selections Gordon played a great LF and a horrible 3B WAR is a not a perfect stat. Here are a few articles that touch on it WAR article lThis WAR article touches other aspects of it that might directly impact this comparison Here is an example of how BAD a stat WAR can be and you can find TONS when you start to look. Take a look at 1994 Carter G AB R. H HR. RBI. SB BA. OBP. SLG. OPS 1994 34 TOR AL 111 435 70 118 27 103 11. .271 .317 .524 .841 I think its fair to say that a season like this that got him a top 10 MVP finish and an all star selection is not something that any typical replacement player could have pulled off. Clearly baseball people realize it was a great season thus the All Star selection and MVP votes. Those are good numbers. But according to WAR this won't even get you an extra win as the WAR for this season was 0.7. This is in large part due to his -1.6 dWAR. Wow such a bad dWAR you would think he was making tons of errors. Nope only 2 errors. So I guess he was missing balls? Really? won't get into how that is measured in WAR but it is VERY subjective. Realistically, I'm not even writing this to you, but the other forum members, because I know nothing can make you change your mind. Here is how baseball reference calculates defensive WAR: W-L% = ((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player))/((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player) + ((League Runs/Game / 2)- Player Defensive Runs)^(Runs/Game involving Player)) DWAA = (W-L% - .5) * Games Played DWRSE = Player Defensive Runs / ((2 * (league Runs/Game)^.715) - (2 * (Runs per Game involving Player)^.715)) DWAR = DWAA + DWRSE How much do you think this has to do with how many errors Carter committed? How valuable do you think a player that never commits an error but covers an area the size of a basketball is to a team? You've decided that WAR is somehow an arbitrary stat but how about we put this thing to a vote here? How many people do you think will vote for Carter? No, I don't think its arbitrary. I think it has a certain value. Just NOT enough value to overrule every other statistical measure. Also in the dWAR calculation you did not explain how the other stats are created. Also if you REALLY think DWar is accurate that means you think Cal Ripken Jr. is the greatest the 3rd greatest defensive player of all-time. Listen Cal was a solid defensive player but only an idiot would actually think he is the third best defensive player of all time. You also have to think Gary Carter is the second best defensive catcher of all-time. Once again....not knocking Carters defense it was good. But I think this shows how the stat might be flawed. D-War has Andrew Jones the greatest defensive CF, not Mays, not Mantle, not Devon White, not Griffey, not Tris Speaker But its whatever, I don't feel like breaking down why WAR and dWAR especially is a very weak stat and an argument about a players value shouldn't be based ONLY on it. You know why dWAR has Andruw Jones a better defender than Griffey, Speaker, Mantle or White? It's because he was. Ripken benefits from a long career full of full seasons played, but he is still way behind Ozzie and Andrelton Simmons will overtake him. Who should be clearly ahead of him? Vizquel? His defensive metrics are still well reflected in dWAR. Who should be ahead of Gary Carter but isn't? Also, this is such a far stretch of my argument (dare I say that it's a straw man?). We're not talking about the order of all time defensive greats and whether they align perfectly in terms of defensive WAR. They won't. But there is no all time defensive great that doesnt have dWAR significantly on the plus side. It works that way because overall dWAR still works to differentiate poor defenders from good ones. Joe Carter was a terrible fielder who was a net-negative for his teams as a defender. Gordon was the opposite.
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant. Okay, one last time. WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player. None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense. Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant. WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout. Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon. Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that. You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats! Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser.. Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either. Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial. The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)). OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s). Defensively they arent remotely comparable. You're missing the point that it is extremely difficult to provide additional wins into WAR and dWAR as a left fielder, but Gordon did. Meanwhile, Carter actually played under replacement level and actually cost his team games with his defense... Why do you think Keith Hernandez' career dWAR is 1.3? Because although he was a great fielder, it is very difficult to provide additional defensive wins as a 1B. The fact that Gordon was able to produce 8.6 defensive wins based on dWAR as a left fielder is actually very impressive and shows that he actually had a net-positive impact there (unlike Carter). Lastly, Bill James (not Will) is not the creator of WAR but win shares. He criticises WAR sure but how about you go to him and present your analysis between Carter and Gordon based on RBIs, stolen bases and all star appearances... Wonder what he would say to that.... We just disagree about the use of WAR as a singular stat. I think that ANY singular stat RBI, homers, BA etc is not as good as a full statistical analysis. I am not using ONE stat. When triangulating the data which any statistician on the planet would say is a better method of analyzing data than looking at any one stat you get a better idea of the player. Here are some facts Carter is better stats in the following: Homeruns (career, single season, per AB), RBI (career, single season, per AB), Steals (career, single season, per AB), hits (career, single season, per AB), Triples (career, single season, per AB), Runs (career, single season, per AB), BA (career) Slugging (career, single season) - number of .500 SLG season OPS (career, single season) - number of .800 OPS seasons OPS+ (career) All-Star selections Top 10 MVP selections Gordon played a great LF and a horrible 3B WAR is a not a perfect stat. Here are a few articles that touch on it WAR article lThis WAR article touches other aspects of it that might directly impact this comparison Here is an example of how BAD a stat WAR can be and you can find TONS when you start to look. Take a look at 1994 Carter G AB R. H HR. RBI. SB BA. OBP. SLG. OPS 1994 34 TOR AL 111 435 70 118 27 103 11. .271 .317 .524 .841 I think its fair to say that a season like this that got him a top 10 MVP finish and an all star selection is not something that any typical replacement player could have pulled off. Clearly baseball people realize it was a great season thus the All Star selection and MVP votes. Those are good numbers. But according to WAR this won't even get you an extra win as the WAR for this season was 0.7. This is in large part due to his -1.6 dWAR. Wow such a bad dWAR you would think he was making tons of errors. Nope only 2 errors. So I guess he was missing balls? Really? won't get into how that is measured in WAR but it is VERY subjective. Realistically, I'm not even writing this to you, but the other forum members, because I know nothing can make you change your mind. Here is how baseball reference calculates defensive WAR: W-L% = ((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player))/((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player) + ((League Runs/Game / 2)- Player Defensive Runs)^(Runs/Game involving Player)) DWAA = (W-L% - .5) * Games Played DWRSE = Player Defensive Runs / ((2 * (league Runs/Game)^.715) - (2 * (Runs per Game involving Player)^.715)) DWAR = DWAA + DWRSE How much do you think this has to do with how many errors Carter committed? How valuable do you think a player that never commits an error but covers an area the size of a basketball is to a team? You've decided that WAR is somehow an arbitrary stat but how about we put this thing to a vote here? How many people do you think will vote for Carter? No, I don't think its arbitrary. I think it has a certain value. Just NOT enough value to overrule every other statistical measure. Also in the dWAR calculation you did not explain how the other stats are created. Also if you REALLY think DWar is accurate that means you think Cal Ripken Jr. is the greatest the 3rd greatest defensive player of all-time. Listen Cal was a solid defensive player but only an idiot would actually think he is the third best defensive player of all time. You also have to think Gary Carter is the second best defensive catcher of all-time. Once again....not knocking Carters defense it was good. But I think this shows how the stat might be flawed. D-War has Andrew Jones the greatest defensive CF, not Mays, not Mantle, not Devon White, not Griffey, not Tris Speaker But its whatever, I don't feel like breaking down why WAR and dWAR especially is a very weak stat and an argument about a players value shouldn't be based ONLY on it.
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant. Okay, one last time. WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player. None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense. Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant. WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout. Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon. Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that. You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats! Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser.. Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either. Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial. The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)). OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s). Defensively they arent remotely comparable. You're missing the point that it is extremely difficult to provide additional wins into WAR and dWAR as a left fielder, but Gordon did. Meanwhile, Carter actually played under replacement level and actually cost his team games with his defense... Why do you think Keith Hernandez' career dWAR is 1.3? Because although he was a great fielder, it is very difficult to provide additional defensive wins as a 1B. The fact that Gordon was able to produce 8.6 defensive wins based on dWAR as a left fielder is actually very impressive and shows that he actually had a net-positive impact there (unlike Carter). Lastly, Bill James (not Will) is not the creator of WAR but win shares. He criticises WAR sure but how about you go to him and present your analysis between Carter and Gordon based on RBIs, stolen bases and all star appearances... Wonder what he would say to that.... We just disagree about the use of WAR as a singular stat. I think that ANY singular stat RBI, homers, BA etc is not as good as a full statistical analysis. I am not using ONE stat. When triangulating the data which any statistician on the planet would say is a better method of analyzing data than looking at any one stat you get a better idea of the player. Here are some facts Carter is better stats in the following: Homeruns (career, single season, per AB), RBI (career, single season, per AB), Steals (career, single season, per AB), hits (career, single season, per AB), Triples (career, single season, per AB), Runs (career, single season, per AB), BA (career) Slugging (career, single season) - number of .500 SLG season OPS (career, single season) - number of .800 OPS seasons OPS+ (career) All-Star selections Top 10 MVP selections Gordon played a great LF and a horrible 3B WAR is a not a perfect stat. Here are a few articles that touch on it WAR article lThis WAR article touches other aspects of it that might directly impact this comparison Here is an example of how BAD a stat WAR can be and you can find TONS when you start to look. Take a look at 1994 Carter G AB R. H HR. RBI. SB BA. OBP. SLG. OPS 1994 34 TOR AL 111 435 70 118 27 103 11. .271 .317 .524 .841 I think its fair to say that a season like this that got him a top 10 MVP finish and an all star selection is not something that any typical replacement player could have pulled off. Clearly baseball people realize it was a great season thus the All Star selection and MVP votes. Those are good numbers. But according to WAR this won't even get you an extra win as the WAR for this season was 0.7. This is in large part due to his -1.6 dWAR. Wow such a bad dWAR you would think he was making tons of errors. Nope only 2 errors. So I guess he was missing balls? Really? won't get into how that is measured in WAR but it is VERY subjective. Realistically, I'm not even writing this to you, but the other forum members, because I know nothing can make you change your mind. Here is how baseball reference calculates defensive WAR: W-L% = ((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player))/((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player) + ((League Runs/Game / 2)- Player Defensive Runs)^(Runs/Game involving Player)) DWAA = (W-L% - .5) * Games Played DWRSE = Player Defensive Runs / ((2 * (league Runs/Game)^.715) - (2 * (Runs per Game involving Player)^.715)) DWAR = DWAA + DWRSE How much do you think this has to do with how many errors Carter committed? How valuable do you think a player that never commits an error but covers an area the size of a basketball is to a team? You've decided that WAR is somehow an arbitrary stat but how about we put this thing to a vote here? How many people do you think will vote for Carter?
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant. Okay, one last time. WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player. None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense. Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant. WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout. Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon. Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that. You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats! Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser.. Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either. Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial. The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)). OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s). Defensively they arent remotely comparable. You're missing the point that it is extremely difficult to provide additional wins into WAR and dWAR as a left fielder, but Gordon did. Meanwhile, Carter actually played under replacement level and actually cost his team games with his defense... Why do you think Keith Hernandez' career dWAR is 1.3? Because although he was a great fielder, it is very difficult to provide additional defensive wins as a 1B. The fact that Gordon was able to produce 8.6 defensive wins based on dWAR as a left fielder is actually very impressive and shows that he actually had a net-positive impact there (unlike Carter). Lastly, Bill James (not Will) is not the creator of WAR but win shares. He criticises WAR sure but how about you go to him and present your analysis between Carter and Gordon based on RBIs, stolen bases and all star appearances... Wonder what he would say to that.... We just disagree about the use of WAR as a singular stat. I think that ANY singular stat RBI, homers, BA etc is not as good as a full statistical analysis. I am not using ONE stat. When triangulating the data which any statistician on the planet would say is a better method of analyzing data than looking at any one stat you get a better idea of the player. Here are some facts Carter is better stats in the following: Homeruns (career, single season, per AB), RBI (career, single season, per AB), Steals (career, single season, per AB), hits (career, single season, per AB), Triples (career, single season, per AB), Runs (career, single season, per AB), BA (career) Slugging (career, single season) - number of .500 SLG season OPS (career, single season) - number of .800 OPS seasons OPS+ (career) All-Star selections Top 10 MVP selections Gordon played a great LF and a horrible 3B WAR is a not a perfect stat. Here are a few articles that touch on it WAR article lThis WAR article touches other aspects of it that might directly impact this comparison Here is an example of how BAD a stat WAR can be and you can find TONS when you start to look. Take a look at 1994 Carter G AB R. H HR. RBI. SB BA. OBP. SLG. OPS 1994 34 TOR AL 111 435 70 118 27 103 11. .271 .317 .524 .841 I think its fair to say that a season like this that got him a top 10 MVP finish and an all star selection is not something that any typical replacement player could have pulled off. Clearly baseball people realize it was a great season thus the All Star selection and MVP votes. Those are good numbers. But according to WAR this won't even get you an extra win as the WAR for this season was 0.7. This is in large part due to his -1.6 dWAR. Wow such a bad dWAR you would think he was making tons of errors. Nope only 2 errors. So I guess he was missing balls? Really? won't get into how that is measured in WAR but it is VERY subjective.
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant. Okay, one last time. WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player. None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense. Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant. WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout. Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon. Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that. You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats! Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser.. Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either. Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial. The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)). OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s). Defensively they arent remotely comparable. You're missing the point that it is extremely difficult to provide additional wins into WAR and dWAR as a left fielder, but Gordon did. Meanwhile, Carter actually played under replacement level and actually cost his team games with his defense... Why do you think Keith Hernandez' career dWAR is 1.3? Because although he was a great fielder, it is very difficult to provide additional defensive wins as a 1B. The fact that Gordon was able to produce 8.6 defensive wins based on dWAR as a left fielder is actually very impressive and shows that he actually had a net-positive impact there (unlike Carter). Lastly, Bill James (not Will) is not the creator of WAR but win shares. He criticises WAR sure but how about you go to him and present your analysis between Carter and Gordon based on RBIs, stolen bases and all star appearances... Wonder what he would say to that....
We just disagree about the use of WAR as a singular stat. I think that ANY singular stat RBI, homers, BA etc is not as good as a full statistical analysis. I am not using ONE stat. When triangulating the data which any statistician on the planet would say is a better method of analyzing data than looking at any one stat you get a better idea of the player. Here are some facts
Homeruns (career, single season, per AB), RBI (career, single season, per AB), Steals (career, single season, per AB), hits (career, single season, per AB), Triples (career, single season, per AB), Runs (career, single season, per AB), BA (career) Slugging (career, single season) - number of .500 SLG season OPS (career, single season) - number of .800 OPS seasons OPS+ (career) All-Star selections Top 10 MVP selections
Gordon played a great LF and a horrible 3B
WAR is a not a perfect stat. Here are a few articles that touch on it WAR article lThis WAR article touches other aspects of it that might directly impact this comparison
Here is an example of how BAD a stat WAR can be and you can find TONS when you start to look. Take a look at 1994 Carter G AB R. H HR. RBI. SB BA. OBP. SLG. OPS 1994 34 TOR AL 111 435 70 118 27 103 11. .271 .317 .524 .841
I think its fair to say that a season like this that got him a top 10 MVP finish and an all star selection is not something that any typical replacement player could have pulled off. Clearly baseball people realize it was a great season thus the All Star selection and MVP votes. Those are good numbers. But according to WAR this won't even get you an extra win as the WAR for this season was 0.7. This is in large part due to his -1.6 dWAR. Wow such a bad dWAR you would think he was making tons of errors. Nope only 2 errors. So I guess he was missing balls? Really? won't get into how that is measured in WAR but it is VERY subjective.
Realistically, I'm not even writing this to you, but the other forum members, because I know nothing can make you change your mind.
Here is how baseball reference calculates defensive WAR:
W-L% = ((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player))/((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player) + ((League Runs/Game / 2)- Player Defensive Runs)^(Runs/Game involving Player)) DWAA = (W-L% - .5) * Games Played DWRSE = Player Defensive Runs / ((2 * (league Runs/Game)^.715) - (2 * (Runs per Game involving Player)^.715)) DWAR = DWAA + DWRSE
How much do you think this has to do with how many errors Carter committed?
How valuable do you think a player that never commits an error but covers an area the size of a basketball is to a team?
You've decided that WAR is somehow an arbitrary stat but how about we put this thing to a vote here? How many people do you think will vote for Carter?
No, I don't think its arbitrary. I think it has a certain value. Just NOT enough value to overrule every other statistical measure. Also in the dWAR calculation you did not explain how the other stats are created. Also if you REALLY think DWar is accurate that means you think Cal Ripken Jr. is the greatest the 3rd greatest defensive player of all-time. Listen Cal was a solid defensive player but only an idiot would actually think he is the third best defensive player of all time. You also have to think Gary Carter is the second best defensive catcher of all-time. Once again....not knocking Carters defense it was good. But I think this shows how the stat might be flawed. D-War has Andrew Jones the greatest defensive CF, not Mays, not Mantle, not Devon White, not Griffey, not Tris Speaker
But its whatever, I don't feel like breaking down why WAR and dWAR especially is a very weak stat and an argument about a players value shouldn't be based ONLY on it.
You know why dWAR has Andruw Jones a better defender than Griffey, Speaker, Mantle or White? It's because he was.
Ripken benefits from a long career full of full seasons played, but he is still way behind Ozzie and Andrelton Simmons will overtake him. Who should be clearly ahead of him? Vizquel? His defensive metrics are still well reflected in dWAR.
Who should be ahead of Gary Carter but isn't?
Also, this is such a far stretch of my argument (dare I say that it's a straw man?). We're not talking about the order of all time defensive greats and whether they align perfectly in terms of defensive WAR. They won't. But there is no all time defensive great that doesnt have dWAR significantly on the plus side. It works that way because overall dWAR still works to differentiate poor defenders from good ones.
Joe Carter was a terrible fielder who was a net-negative for his teams as a defender. Gordon was the opposite.
of course that is a circular argument. He was a better fielder because he had a better dWar. but anyway...is Ripken the third greatest defensive player of all time can you attempt to say that honestly. I don't even think he is like the 4th best SS I have ever seen.
Johnny Bench, Fisk and Yadi Molina should be ahead of Carter just off the top of my head
Also yes, DWar is not a total waste and yes good defenders seem to pop up on the list. But great hitters seem to pop up on the all time hit list but we both can agree we would not use that measure alone to say who the great hitters are.
I am not arguing against WAR. I am arguing against the singular use of WAR and dWAR
Okay, here:
According to fangraphs Joe Carter's fielding value was -86 and defensive value was -175.7.
Alex Gordon's fielding value is 84.2 and defensive value 27.4.
Literally on any metric Carter was an awful defender who cost his teams games on that side of the ball.
Well first you are misinterpreting WAR. He didn't cost his team games. It means that the average player during that time made that much of a difference. Furthermore, its a comparative stat. He could have been bad in an era when there were tons of good LF....like a Bonds. It also could mean that the manager did a bad job of where he positioned him or that he played in difficult LF...like Fenway and Yankee stadium. There are sooo many flaws to the measure that it just doesn't say much. And if you really think Joe Carter was Soooo bad on defense it nullified his offense that is silly on its face. How many balls went out to left that he made a bad play on vs the over 100 times he was able to drive a hitter in a season.
Yeaaaahhh...
You're never going to understand this.
How about we just leave it to the other forum members to decide.
After you have the last word of course. (Or can you help it this time?)
@nflman2033 said in Please don’t neglect the older legends.:
Google search pulls up an article from a few years ago that says researchers say Cobb and Speaker were members, but it hasn't been conclusively verified. He was a white man who grew up in Texas at the end of the 19th century, chances are he was a racist, but as far as being a Klan member, that is still currently a rumor. Since Cobb is in, I cant see that rumor keeping him out of the game.
Obviously there is no way now to verify these stories, but it is worth noting that there are various reasons for why some of these people may have been unfairly or even outright dishonestly vilified:
https://nypost.com/2015/05/31/how-ty-cobb-was-framed-as-a-racist/
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @hegone44 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant. Okay, one last time. WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player. None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense. Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant. WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout. Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon. Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that. You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats! Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser.. Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either. Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial. The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)). OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s). Defensively they arent remotely comparable. You're missing the point that it is extremely difficult to provide additional wins into WAR and dWAR as a left fielder, but Gordon did. Meanwhile, Carter actually played under replacement level and actually cost his team games with his defense... Why do you think Keith Hernandez' career dWAR is 1.3? Because although he was a great fielder, it is very difficult to provide additional defensive wins as a 1B. The fact that Gordon was able to produce 8.6 defensive wins based on dWAR as a left fielder is actually very impressive and shows that he actually had a net-positive impact there (unlike Carter). Lastly, Bill James (not Will) is not the creator of WAR but win shares. He criticises WAR sure but how about you go to him and present your analysis between Carter and Gordon based on RBIs, stolen bases and all star appearances... Wonder what he would say to that.... We just disagree about the use of WAR as a singular stat. I think that ANY singular stat RBI, homers, BA etc is not as good as a full statistical analysis. I am not using ONE stat. When triangulating the data which any statistician on the planet would say is a better method of analyzing data than looking at any one stat you get a better idea of the player. Here are some facts Carter is better stats in the following: Homeruns (career, single season, per AB), RBI (career, single season, per AB), Steals (career, single season, per AB), hits (career, single season, per AB), Triples (career, single season, per AB), Runs (career, single season, per AB), BA (career) Slugging (career, single season) - number of .500 SLG season OPS (career, single season) - number of .800 OPS seasons OPS+ (career) All-Star selections Top 10 MVP selections Gordon played a great LF and a horrible 3B WAR is a not a perfect stat. Here are a few articles that touch on it WAR article lThis WAR article touches other aspects of it that might directly impact this comparison Here is an example of how BAD a stat WAR can be and you can find TONS when you start to look. Take a look at 1994 Carter G AB R. H HR. RBI. SB BA. OBP. SLG. OPS 1994 34 TOR AL 111 435 70 118 27 103 11. .271 .317 .524 .841 I think its fair to say that a season like this that got him a top 10 MVP finish and an all star selection is not something that any typical replacement player could have pulled off. Clearly baseball people realize it was a great season thus the All Star selection and MVP votes. Those are good numbers. But according to WAR this won't even get you an extra win as the WAR for this season was 0.7. This is in large part due to his -1.6 dWAR. Wow such a bad dWAR you would think he was making tons of errors. Nope only 2 errors. So I guess he was missing balls? Really? won't get into how that is measured in WAR but it is VERY subjective. Realistically, I'm not even writing this to you, but the other forum members, because I know nothing can make you change your mind. Here is how baseball reference calculates defensive WAR: W-L% = ((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player))/((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player) + ((League Runs/Game / 2)- Player Defensive Runs)^(Runs/Game involving Player)) DWAA = (W-L% - .5) * Games Played DWRSE = Player Defensive Runs / ((2 * (league Runs/Game)^.715) - (2 * (Runs per Game involving Player)^.715)) DWAR = DWAA + DWRSE How much do you think this has to do with how many errors Carter committed? How valuable do you think a player that never commits an error but covers an area the size of a basketball is to a team? You've decided that WAR is somehow an arbitrary stat but how about we put this thing to a vote here? How many people do you think will vote for Carter? WAR tells much more about a player than any of those base stats used together. Gordon’s career is better than Carter’s, and only a true moron would think otherwise. Driver when you don't have a good argument the classic move of unintelligent people is to name call. I disagree with Sefar, but he is smart enough to have an intelligent argument without an insult. But when we last had a WAR debate I asked if you have EVER taken more than 6 credits in Math or statistics, if you have EVER taken a undergraduate or masters level statistics class. If you have have even 60 college credits. I also asked if you have ever had to use stats or develop statistical analysis in ANY professional manner. I can answer YES to all of those and to me that is not a high bar. So before you call someone a moron you should look in the mirror. Hopefully I have enough college math credit to qualify for a conversation about baseball stats, but I digress... Most people would argue, as you have, that Joe Carter was a far superior hitter, and that offensive superiority over Gordon outweighs Gordon's defensive superiority over Carter. Fair enough. I've seen both these guys play and, based on my memories, I'd have thought that too. However, our memories/eyes lie all the time. Here's a slash line comparison: Gordon: .258/.339/.413/.752 Carter: .259/.306/.464/.770 Now defense. By ANY metric available Gordon is the far superior defensive player. Fangraphs Def rating difference is +27.4 for Gordon to -175.7 for Carter. Baseball Ref dWAR is +8.6 for Gordon to -15.7 for Carter. So, to recap, OPS is essentially a pick-em, especially since Gordon has a decided edge in the most important offensive category (OBP). Defense is a landslide in Gordon's favor. That's why the difference in WAR is pretty dramatic. So if I'm an AL team and can DH Carter then maybe I'll take him. But if he has to play a COF position, Gordon will help my team more in the long run. Bottom line is Joe Carter was not nearly as good as we remember. I very much appreciate you reiterating this. It's nothing that wasn't already stated on the previous pages, but sometimes repetition is helpful. It's definitely interesting that Joe Carter specifically has this tendency of making people view him through - in one way or another - tinted glasses. No it was quite different in that they brought in the overall slash line and not JUST WAR. I think Joe Carter is looked at positively because he was a very good player. I think the change in narrative about him is about the cult of WAR that has become popular especially amongst non-athletes since his retirement. His poor WAR is silly on the face of it. The example I gave of his 1994 WAR illustrates my point. Now you can have your new last word
@hegone44 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant. Okay, one last time. WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player. None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense. Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant. WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout. Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon. Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that. You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats! Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser.. Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either. Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial. The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)). OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s). Defensively they arent remotely comparable. You're missing the point that it is extremely difficult to provide additional wins into WAR and dWAR as a left fielder, but Gordon did. Meanwhile, Carter actually played under replacement level and actually cost his team games with his defense... Why do you think Keith Hernandez' career dWAR is 1.3? Because although he was a great fielder, it is very difficult to provide additional defensive wins as a 1B. The fact that Gordon was able to produce 8.6 defensive wins based on dWAR as a left fielder is actually very impressive and shows that he actually had a net-positive impact there (unlike Carter). Lastly, Bill James (not Will) is not the creator of WAR but win shares. He criticises WAR sure but how about you go to him and present your analysis between Carter and Gordon based on RBIs, stolen bases and all star appearances... Wonder what he would say to that.... We just disagree about the use of WAR as a singular stat. I think that ANY singular stat RBI, homers, BA etc is not as good as a full statistical analysis. I am not using ONE stat. When triangulating the data which any statistician on the planet would say is a better method of analyzing data than looking at any one stat you get a better idea of the player. Here are some facts Carter is better stats in the following: Homeruns (career, single season, per AB), RBI (career, single season, per AB), Steals (career, single season, per AB), hits (career, single season, per AB), Triples (career, single season, per AB), Runs (career, single season, per AB), BA (career) Slugging (career, single season) - number of .500 SLG season OPS (career, single season) - number of .800 OPS seasons OPS+ (career) All-Star selections Top 10 MVP selections Gordon played a great LF and a horrible 3B WAR is a not a perfect stat. Here are a few articles that touch on it WAR article lThis WAR article touches other aspects of it that might directly impact this comparison Here is an example of how BAD a stat WAR can be and you can find TONS when you start to look. Take a look at 1994 Carter G AB R. H HR. RBI. SB BA. OBP. SLG. OPS 1994 34 TOR AL 111 435 70 118 27 103 11. .271 .317 .524 .841 I think its fair to say that a season like this that got him a top 10 MVP finish and an all star selection is not something that any typical replacement player could have pulled off. Clearly baseball people realize it was a great season thus the All Star selection and MVP votes. Those are good numbers. But according to WAR this won't even get you an extra win as the WAR for this season was 0.7. This is in large part due to his -1.6 dWAR. Wow such a bad dWAR you would think he was making tons of errors. Nope only 2 errors. So I guess he was missing balls? Really? won't get into how that is measured in WAR but it is VERY subjective. Realistically, I'm not even writing this to you, but the other forum members, because I know nothing can make you change your mind. Here is how baseball reference calculates defensive WAR: W-L% = ((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player))/((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player) + ((League Runs/Game / 2)- Player Defensive Runs)^(Runs/Game involving Player)) DWAA = (W-L% - .5) * Games Played DWRSE = Player Defensive Runs / ((2 * (league Runs/Game)^.715) - (2 * (Runs per Game involving Player)^.715)) DWAR = DWAA + DWRSE How much do you think this has to do with how many errors Carter committed? How valuable do you think a player that never commits an error but covers an area the size of a basketball is to a team? You've decided that WAR is somehow an arbitrary stat but how about we put this thing to a vote here? How many people do you think will vote for Carter? WAR tells much more about a player than any of those base stats used together. Gordon’s career is better than Carter’s, and only a true moron would think otherwise. Driver when you don't have a good argument the classic move of unintelligent people is to name call. I disagree with Sefar, but he is smart enough to have an intelligent argument without an insult. But when we last had a WAR debate I asked if you have EVER taken more than 6 credits in Math or statistics, if you have EVER taken a undergraduate or masters level statistics class. If you have have even 60 college credits. I also asked if you have ever had to use stats or develop statistical analysis in ANY professional manner. I can answer YES to all of those and to me that is not a high bar. So before you call someone a moron you should look in the mirror. Hopefully I have enough college math credit to qualify for a conversation about baseball stats, but I digress... Most people would argue, as you have, that Joe Carter was a far superior hitter, and that offensive superiority over Gordon outweighs Gordon's defensive superiority over Carter. Fair enough. I've seen both these guys play and, based on my memories, I'd have thought that too. However, our memories/eyes lie all the time. Here's a slash line comparison: Gordon: .258/.339/.413/.752 Carter: .259/.306/.464/.770 Now defense. By ANY metric available Gordon is the far superior defensive player. Fangraphs Def rating difference is +27.4 for Gordon to -175.7 for Carter. Baseball Ref dWAR is +8.6 for Gordon to -15.7 for Carter. So, to recap, OPS is essentially a pick-em, especially since Gordon has a decided edge in the most important offensive category (OBP). Defense is a landslide in Gordon's favor. That's why the difference in WAR is pretty dramatic. So if I'm an AL team and can DH Carter then maybe I'll take him. But if he has to play a COF position, Gordon will help my team more in the long run. Bottom line is Joe Carter was not nearly as good as we remember. I very much appreciate you reiterating this. It's nothing that wasn't already stated on the previous pages, but sometimes repetition is helpful. It's definitely interesting that Joe Carter specifically has this tendency of making people view him through - in one way or another - tinted glasses.
@hegone44 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant. Okay, one last time. WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player. None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense. Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant. WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout. Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon. Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that. You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats! Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser.. Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either. Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial. The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)). OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s). Defensively they arent remotely comparable. You're missing the point that it is extremely difficult to provide additional wins into WAR and dWAR as a left fielder, but Gordon did. Meanwhile, Carter actually played under replacement level and actually cost his team games with his defense... Why do you think Keith Hernandez' career dWAR is 1.3? Because although he was a great fielder, it is very difficult to provide additional defensive wins as a 1B. The fact that Gordon was able to produce 8.6 defensive wins based on dWAR as a left fielder is actually very impressive and shows that he actually had a net-positive impact there (unlike Carter). Lastly, Bill James (not Will) is not the creator of WAR but win shares. He criticises WAR sure but how about you go to him and present your analysis between Carter and Gordon based on RBIs, stolen bases and all star appearances... Wonder what he would say to that.... We just disagree about the use of WAR as a singular stat. I think that ANY singular stat RBI, homers, BA etc is not as good as a full statistical analysis. I am not using ONE stat. When triangulating the data which any statistician on the planet would say is a better method of analyzing data than looking at any one stat you get a better idea of the player. Here are some facts Carter is better stats in the following: Homeruns (career, single season, per AB), RBI (career, single season, per AB), Steals (career, single season, per AB), hits (career, single season, per AB), Triples (career, single season, per AB), Runs (career, single season, per AB), BA (career) Slugging (career, single season) - number of .500 SLG season OPS (career, single season) - number of .800 OPS seasons OPS+ (career) All-Star selections Top 10 MVP selections Gordon played a great LF and a horrible 3B WAR is a not a perfect stat. Here are a few articles that touch on it WAR article lThis WAR article touches other aspects of it that might directly impact this comparison Here is an example of how BAD a stat WAR can be and you can find TONS when you start to look. Take a look at 1994 Carter G AB R. H HR. RBI. SB BA. OBP. SLG. OPS 1994 34 TOR AL 111 435 70 118 27 103 11. .271 .317 .524 .841 I think its fair to say that a season like this that got him a top 10 MVP finish and an all star selection is not something that any typical replacement player could have pulled off. Clearly baseball people realize it was a great season thus the All Star selection and MVP votes. Those are good numbers. But according to WAR this won't even get you an extra win as the WAR for this season was 0.7. This is in large part due to his -1.6 dWAR. Wow such a bad dWAR you would think he was making tons of errors. Nope only 2 errors. So I guess he was missing balls? Really? won't get into how that is measured in WAR but it is VERY subjective. Realistically, I'm not even writing this to you, but the other forum members, because I know nothing can make you change your mind. Here is how baseball reference calculates defensive WAR: W-L% = ((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player))/((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player) + ((League Runs/Game / 2)- Player Defensive Runs)^(Runs/Game involving Player)) DWAA = (W-L% - .5) * Games Played DWRSE = Player Defensive Runs / ((2 * (league Runs/Game)^.715) - (2 * (Runs per Game involving Player)^.715)) DWAR = DWAA + DWRSE How much do you think this has to do with how many errors Carter committed? How valuable do you think a player that never commits an error but covers an area the size of a basketball is to a team? You've decided that WAR is somehow an arbitrary stat but how about we put this thing to a vote here? How many people do you think will vote for Carter? WAR tells much more about a player than any of those base stats used together. Gordon’s career is better than Carter’s, and only a true moron would think otherwise. Driver when you don't have a good argument the classic move of unintelligent people is to name call. I disagree with Sefar, but he is smart enough to have an intelligent argument without an insult. But when we last had a WAR debate I asked if you have EVER taken more than 6 credits in Math or statistics, if you have EVER taken a undergraduate or masters level statistics class. If you have have even 60 college credits. I also asked if you have ever had to use stats or develop statistical analysis in ANY professional manner. I can answer YES to all of those and to me that is not a high bar. So before you call someone a moron you should look in the mirror. Hopefully I have enough college math credit to qualify for a conversation about baseball stats, but I digress... Most people would argue, as you have, that Joe Carter was a far superior hitter, and that offensive superiority over Gordon outweighs Gordon's defensive superiority over Carter. Fair enough. I've seen both these guys play and, based on my memories, I'd have thought that too. However, our memories/eyes lie all the time. Here's a slash line comparison: Gordon: .258/.339/.413/.752 Carter: .259/.306/.464/.770 Now defense. By ANY metric available Gordon is the far superior defensive player. Fangraphs Def rating difference is +27.4 for Gordon to -175.7 for Carter. Baseball Ref dWAR is +8.6 for Gordon to -15.7 for Carter. So, to recap, OPS is essentially a pick-em, especially since Gordon has a decided edge in the most important offensive category (OBP). Defense is a landslide in Gordon's favor. That's why the difference in WAR is pretty dramatic. So if I'm an AL team and can DH Carter then maybe I'll take him. But if he has to play a COF position, Gordon will help my team more in the long run. Bottom line is Joe Carter was not nearly as good as we remember.
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant. Okay, one last time. WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player. None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense. Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant. WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout. Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon. Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that. You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats! Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser.. Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either. Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial. The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)). OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s). Defensively they arent remotely comparable. You're missing the point that it is extremely difficult to provide additional wins into WAR and dWAR as a left fielder, but Gordon did. Meanwhile, Carter actually played under replacement level and actually cost his team games with his defense... Why do you think Keith Hernandez' career dWAR is 1.3? Because although he was a great fielder, it is very difficult to provide additional defensive wins as a 1B. The fact that Gordon was able to produce 8.6 defensive wins based on dWAR as a left fielder is actually very impressive and shows that he actually had a net-positive impact there (unlike Carter). Lastly, Bill James (not Will) is not the creator of WAR but win shares. He criticises WAR sure but how about you go to him and present your analysis between Carter and Gordon based on RBIs, stolen bases and all star appearances... Wonder what he would say to that.... We just disagree about the use of WAR as a singular stat. I think that ANY singular stat RBI, homers, BA etc is not as good as a full statistical analysis. I am not using ONE stat. When triangulating the data which any statistician on the planet would say is a better method of analyzing data than looking at any one stat you get a better idea of the player. Here are some facts Carter is better stats in the following: Homeruns (career, single season, per AB), RBI (career, single season, per AB), Steals (career, single season, per AB), hits (career, single season, per AB), Triples (career, single season, per AB), Runs (career, single season, per AB), BA (career) Slugging (career, single season) - number of .500 SLG season OPS (career, single season) - number of .800 OPS seasons OPS+ (career) All-Star selections Top 10 MVP selections Gordon played a great LF and a horrible 3B WAR is a not a perfect stat. Here are a few articles that touch on it WAR article lThis WAR article touches other aspects of it that might directly impact this comparison Here is an example of how BAD a stat WAR can be and you can find TONS when you start to look. Take a look at 1994 Carter G AB R. H HR. RBI. SB BA. OBP. SLG. OPS 1994 34 TOR AL 111 435 70 118 27 103 11. .271 .317 .524 .841 I think its fair to say that a season like this that got him a top 10 MVP finish and an all star selection is not something that any typical replacement player could have pulled off. Clearly baseball people realize it was a great season thus the All Star selection and MVP votes. Those are good numbers. But according to WAR this won't even get you an extra win as the WAR for this season was 0.7. This is in large part due to his -1.6 dWAR. Wow such a bad dWAR you would think he was making tons of errors. Nope only 2 errors. So I guess he was missing balls? Really? won't get into how that is measured in WAR but it is VERY subjective. Realistically, I'm not even writing this to you, but the other forum members, because I know nothing can make you change your mind. Here is how baseball reference calculates defensive WAR: W-L% = ((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player))/((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player) + ((League Runs/Game / 2)- Player Defensive Runs)^(Runs/Game involving Player)) DWAA = (W-L% - .5) * Games Played DWRSE = Player Defensive Runs / ((2 * (league Runs/Game)^.715) - (2 * (Runs per Game involving Player)^.715)) DWAR = DWAA + DWRSE How much do you think this has to do with how many errors Carter committed? How valuable do you think a player that never commits an error but covers an area the size of a basketball is to a team? You've decided that WAR is somehow an arbitrary stat but how about we put this thing to a vote here? How many people do you think will vote for Carter? WAR tells much more about a player than any of those base stats used together. Gordon’s career is better than Carter’s, and only a true moron would think otherwise. Driver when you don't have a good argument the classic move of unintelligent people is to name call. I disagree with Sefar, but he is smart enough to have an intelligent argument without an insult. But when we last had a WAR debate I asked if you have EVER taken more than 6 credits in Math or statistics, if you have EVER taken a undergraduate or masters level statistics class. If you have have even 60 college credits. I also asked if you have ever had to use stats or develop statistical analysis in ANY professional manner. I can answer YES to all of those and to me that is not a high bar. So before you call someone a moron you should look in the mirror.
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: @Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing: I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant. Okay, one last time. WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player. None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense. Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant. WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout. Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon. Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that. You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats! Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser.. Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either. Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial. The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)). OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s). Defensively they arent remotely comparable. You're missing the point that it is extremely difficult to provide additional wins into WAR and dWAR as a left fielder, but Gordon did. Meanwhile, Carter actually played under replacement level and actually cost his team games with his defense... Why do you think Keith Hernandez' career dWAR is 1.3? Because although he was a great fielder, it is very difficult to provide additional defensive wins as a 1B. The fact that Gordon was able to produce 8.6 defensive wins based on dWAR as a left fielder is actually very impressive and shows that he actually had a net-positive impact there (unlike Carter). Lastly, Bill James (not Will) is not the creator of WAR but win shares. He criticises WAR sure but how about you go to him and present your analysis between Carter and Gordon based on RBIs, stolen bases and all star appearances... Wonder what he would say to that.... We just disagree about the use of WAR as a singular stat. I think that ANY singular stat RBI, homers, BA etc is not as good as a full statistical analysis. I am not using ONE stat. When triangulating the data which any statistician on the planet would say is a better method of analyzing data than looking at any one stat you get a better idea of the player. Here are some facts Carter is better stats in the following: Homeruns (career, single season, per AB), RBI (career, single season, per AB), Steals (career, single season, per AB), hits (career, single season, per AB), Triples (career, single season, per AB), Runs (career, single season, per AB), BA (career) Slugging (career, single season) - number of .500 SLG season OPS (career, single season) - number of .800 OPS seasons OPS+ (career) All-Star selections Top 10 MVP selections Gordon played a great LF and a horrible 3B WAR is a not a perfect stat. Here are a few articles that touch on it WAR article lThis WAR article touches other aspects of it that might directly impact this comparison Here is an example of how BAD a stat WAR can be and you can find TONS when you start to look. Take a look at 1994 Carter G AB R. H HR. RBI. SB BA. OBP. SLG. OPS 1994 34 TOR AL 111 435 70 118 27 103 11. .271 .317 .524 .841 I think its fair to say that a season like this that got him a top 10 MVP finish and an all star selection is not something that any typical replacement player could have pulled off. Clearly baseball people realize it was a great season thus the All Star selection and MVP votes. Those are good numbers. But according to WAR this won't even get you an extra win as the WAR for this season was 0.7. This is in large part due to his -1.6 dWAR. Wow such a bad dWAR you would think he was making tons of errors. Nope only 2 errors. So I guess he was missing balls? Really? won't get into how that is measured in WAR but it is VERY subjective. Realistically, I'm not even writing this to you, but the other forum members, because I know nothing can make you change your mind. Here is how baseball reference calculates defensive WAR: W-L% = ((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player))/((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player) + ((League Runs/Game / 2)- Player Defensive Runs)^(Runs/Game involving Player)) DWAA = (W-L% - .5) * Games Played DWRSE = Player Defensive Runs / ((2 * (league Runs/Game)^.715) - (2 * (Runs per Game involving Player)^.715)) DWAR = DWAA + DWRSE How much do you think this has to do with how many errors Carter committed? How valuable do you think a player that never commits an error but covers an area the size of a basketball is to a team? You've decided that WAR is somehow an arbitrary stat but how about we put this thing to a vote here? How many people do you think will vote for Carter? WAR tells much more about a player than any of those base stats used together. Gordon’s career is better than Carter’s, and only a true moron would think otherwise.
WAR tells much more about a player than any of those base stats used together. Gordon’s career is better than Carter’s, and only a true moron would think otherwise.
Driver when you don't have a good argument the classic move of unintelligent people is to name call. I disagree with Sefar, but he is smart enough to have an intelligent argument without an insult. But when we last had a WAR debate I asked if you have EVER taken more than 6 credits in Math or statistics, if you have EVER taken a undergraduate or masters level statistics class. If you have have even 60 college credits. I also asked if you have ever had to use stats or develop statistical analysis in ANY professional manner. I can answer YES to all of those and to me that is not a high bar. So before you call someone a moron you should look in the mirror.
Hopefully I have enough college math credit to qualify for a conversation about baseball stats, but I digress...
Most people would argue, as you have, that Joe Carter was a far superior hitter, and that offensive superiority over Gordon outweighs Gordon's defensive superiority over Carter. Fair enough. I've seen both these guys play and, based on my memories, I'd have thought that too. However, our memories/eyes lie all the time. Here's a slash line comparison:
Gordon: .258/.339/.413/.752 Carter: .259/.306/.464/.770
Now defense. By ANY metric available Gordon is the far superior defensive player. Fangraphs Def rating difference is +27.4 for Gordon to -175.7 for Carter. Baseball Ref dWAR is +8.6 for Gordon to -15.7 for Carter.
So, to recap, OPS is essentially a pick-em, especially since Gordon has a decided edge in the most important offensive category (OBP). Defense is a landslide in Gordon's favor. That's why the difference in WAR is pretty dramatic.
So if I'm an AL team and can DH Carter then maybe I'll take him. But if he has to play a COF position, Gordon will help my team more in the long run. Bottom line is Joe Carter was not nearly as good as we remember.
I very much appreciate you reiterating this. It's nothing that wasn't already stated on the previous pages, but sometimes repetition is helpful. It's definitely interesting that Joe Carter specifically has this tendency of making people view him through - in one way or another - tinted glasses.
No it was quite different in that they brought in the overall slash line and not JUST WAR.
I think Joe Carter is looked at positively because he was a very good player. I think the change in narrative about him is about the cult of WAR that has become popular especially amongst non-athletes since his retirement.
His poor WAR is silly on the face of it. The example I gave of his 1994 WAR illustrates my point.
Now you can have your new last word
Thank you for graciously offering me the last word.
This is what I stated two days ago:
"The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)).
Defensively they aren't remotely comparable.."
OPS (and the minuscule difference between Gordon's and Carter's career OPS) has been referred to several times in this thread.
You ignored that and instead referred to RBI's, stolen bases and all star appearances as some sort of a difference maker. Problem is, RBI's and all star appearances are useless when it comes to comparing players. Stolen bases have been clearly shown to be much less valuable than previously thought, this is why the overall number of stolen bases has steadily declined. Furthermore, Carter was never some standout speed demon, in his best year he had 31 stolen bases and was caught stealing 1/6 times (Rickey Henderson, who played at the same time, recorded more SB's in a year 23 times).
Considering the similarity of the OPS numbers between the two players, you essentially value the extra 10 stolen bases per year, regardless of how atrocious that player is as a fielder, over elite defense in LF.
This is another losing argument you simply were not able to let go off because "you are what you are".
@Furious_Boogers said in How close should this game have been?:
Dude... It's February. If you haven't come to grips with the fact that MLBTS plays like a glorified mobile game, I don't know what to tell you. Nothing is going to change as long as DD is separating fools from their money. It's clear that SDS/Sony has determined the whales suck at this game which is why the game plays like it does, and why people are becoming increasingly frustrated with these DD/Ultimate Team modes. Gameplay is no longer developed to simulate the physical act of playing baseball - this game's sole purpose is to keep the 2% of the player base that spend gobs of money engaged and continuing to open their wallets. So unless those players magically get better, fretting over whether you're being proportionately rewarded is an act of insanity.
Dude... It's February. If you haven't come to grips with the fact that MLBTS plays like a glorified mobile game, I don't know what to tell you.
Nothing is going to change as long as DD is separating fools from their money. It's clear that SDS/Sony has determined the whales suck at this game which is why the game plays like it does, and why people are becoming increasingly frustrated with these DD/Ultimate Team modes.
Gameplay is no longer developed to simulate the physical act of playing baseball - this game's sole purpose is to keep the 2% of the player base that spend gobs of money engaged and continuing to open their wallets. So unless those players magically get better, fretting over whether you're being proportionately rewarded is an act of insanity.
So, in essense, you agree.
Personally, I'm never gonna stop caring because 1) this is realistically the only baseball game available to me and because 2) however insane it may seem, I have hopes that things could still veer back towards how the game used to play in 15 and 16.
@Maverick31762 said in Jimmie Foxx is unjammable:
Glad you admitted you don’t know why he wasn’t included. That was the point You didn’t make a point about WAR you copied and pasted parts of the formula. Go get your last word. I am bored with you
Glad you admitted you don’t know why he wasn’t included. That was the point
You didn’t make a point about WAR you copied and pasted parts of the formula.
Go get your last word. I am bored with you
That wasn't my point - you specifically stated that wRC+ is a derivative of WAR
I didn't attempt to make a point about WAR. I simply demonstrated that wRC+ is not a derivative of WAR unlike incorrectly asserted by you.
Yup, same issue - didn't get the chance to open any of the pre-order stuff and the stubbs are gone of course. Now the entire point of early access is gone... Well done SDS.
Same here - I redeemed two items in the store but I don't have any of the preorder packs or stubbs. @Victor_SDS_PSN where do I file the complaint to make sure I receive these things?
Yup, I claimed my [censored] and now everything is gone - Didn't get the chance to open any packs and the preorder stubbs are gone. Where can I file a complaint about this?
I think I have the same issue, I reclaimed my preorder stuff (two items) and now everything is gone. How the hell do I unlink the account? This [censored] is insanely counter-intuitive to the point of being inoperative...
I've seen directional hitters hit absolute jacks on pitches on the black low and in, low and away, up and in, up and away. It used to be the case that directional hitters couldn't hit those pitches, but that has certainly changed.
@nobuttonstickpro said in Get rid of X button hitting:
5 hits 5hr, 4 hits hr. It always seems to be early swing with the x buttons gets the button mashers hrs.
One question. Do you use zone?
There's no question that guys like Rebel, Notorious etc. are amazingly good at putting the PCI on the ball. Still, look at the lineups of all the top guys. There's a reason why all of them have Mantle, Biggio etc.
@ComebackLogic said in “Skill matters more than ever”:
You should try moving to England. I regularly have the pleasure of seeing warping 200mph sinkers on all star, seemingly due to being geographically distant from the majority of my opponents. HoF is currently unplayable for me, despite the fact I’ve played for five years, use a monitor and have made WS every season for the past couple of years. I couldn’t even get to CS last season and I’ve given up playing past 700 now because it’s just garbage. Speaking to other players in the USA, they share your opinion that HoF is still the best setting, as I too believed last year, not much has changed. Speaking to a European friend who is much better than me, goes 12-0 multiple times a year and generally competes with good players on HoF and legend and he agrees it’s impossible to hit a sinker or even straight fastball in some games due to the crazy timing windows. TLDR; SDS problem
Playing from Finland, I can confirm all of the above.
Thing is, I've played since 15 and I can't recall it ever being this bad with respect to how much of a handicap non-Americans give to Americans.
@rumpl34oreskn said in So I can hit on Legend in custom practice..:
@ChuckCLC said in So I can hit on Legend in custom practice..: @aaronjw76 said in So I can hit on Legend in custom practice..: @ChuckCLC said in So I can hit on Legend in custom practice..: Cuz RS is is faster and harder on All Star then Legend vs CPU. What else do you want? Want them to lie to you? Cuz they will Shouldnt legend offline be at least comparable to AS online? You would think. But it aint.. You're right, it's not. However, you can make it as difficult as online by adjusting the sliders. I increase the velocity of fb and lower change up velocity.
@ChuckCLC said in So I can hit on Legend in custom practice..:
@aaronjw76 said in So I can hit on Legend in custom practice..: @ChuckCLC said in So I can hit on Legend in custom practice..: Cuz RS is is faster and harder on All Star then Legend vs CPU. What else do you want? Want them to lie to you? Cuz they will Shouldnt legend offline be at least comparable to AS online? You would think. But it aint..
@aaronjw76 said in So I can hit on Legend in custom practice..:
@ChuckCLC said in So I can hit on Legend in custom practice..: Cuz RS is is faster and harder on All Star then Legend vs CPU. What else do you want? Want them to lie to you? Cuz they will Shouldnt legend offline be at least comparable to AS online?
Cuz RS is is faster and harder on All Star then Legend vs CPU. What else do you want? Want them to lie to you? Cuz they will
Shouldnt legend offline be at least comparable to AS online?
You would think. But it aint..
You're right, it's not. However, you can make it as difficult as online by adjusting the sliders. I increase the velocity of fb and lower change up velocity.
For myself, even if I slide the sliders max to the right and set it on legend the pitch speeds still won't reach even those of hof in online games.
What is even worse though, the pitch speeds vary A LOT from game to game even on the same difficulty based on connection.
The most obvious question is, are you already playing on a monitor?
Although, to be fair, this year fastballs can come in at seemingly insane speeds even when using a monitor - and the pitch speeds vary a lot even within the same difficulty (probably due to connection).
I know I give a massive handicap to US based players simply being located in Europe, but it is what it is.
The other suggestion I would have for you is, try hitting with the PCI turned entirely invisible. It will help you focus on the ball. Once you have the pitch speeds down you can move back to using whichever PCI appearance you prefer.