Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing

SefarR_PSN

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant.

Okay, one last time.

WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player.

None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense.

Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant.

WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout.

Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team

To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon.
Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that.

You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats!

Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser..

Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed

You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians

WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either.

Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts

I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial.

The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)).

OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s).

Defensively they arent remotely comparable.

You're missing the point that it is extremely difficult to provide additional wins into WAR and dWAR as a left fielder, but Gordon did. Meanwhile, Carter actually played under replacement level and actually cost his team games with his defense...

Why do you think Keith Hernandez' career dWAR is 1.3? Because although he was a great fielder, it is very difficult to provide additional defensive wins as a 1B. The fact that Gordon was able to produce 8.6 defensive wins based on dWAR as a left fielder is actually very impressive and shows that he actually had a net-positive impact there (unlike Carter).

Lastly, Bill James (not Will) is not the creator of WAR but win shares. He criticises WAR sure but how about you go to him and present your analysis between Carter and Gordon based on RBIs, stolen bases and all star appearances... Wonder what he would say to that....

We just disagree about the use of WAR as a singular stat. I think that ANY singular stat RBI, homers, BA etc is not as good as a full statistical analysis. I am not using ONE stat. When triangulating the data which any statistician on the planet would say is a better method of analyzing data than looking at any one stat you get a better idea of the player. Here are some facts

Carter is better stats in the following:

Homeruns (career, single season, per AB),
RBI (career, single season, per AB),
Steals (career, single season, per AB),
hits (career, single season, per AB),
Triples (career, single season, per AB),
Runs (career, single season, per AB),
BA (career)
Slugging (career, single season) - number of .500 SLG season
OPS (career, single season) - number of .800 OPS seasons
OPS+ (career)
All-Star selections
Top 10 MVP selections

Gordon played a great LF and a horrible 3B

WAR is a not a perfect stat. Here are a few articles that touch on it
WAR article
lThis WAR article touches other aspects of it that might directly impact this comparison

Here is an example of how BAD a stat WAR can be and you can find TONS when you start to look. Take a look at 1994 Carter
G AB R. H HR. RBI. SB BA. OBP. SLG. OPS
1994 34 TOR AL 111 435 70 118 27 103 11. .271 .317 .524 .841

I think its fair to say that a season like this that got him a top 10 MVP finish and an all star selection is not something that any typical replacement player could have pulled off. Clearly baseball people realize it was a great season thus the All Star selection and MVP votes. Those are good numbers. But according to WAR this won't even get you an extra win as the WAR for this season was 0.7. This is in large part due to his -1.6 dWAR. Wow such a bad dWAR you would think he was making tons of errors. Nope only 2 errors. So I guess he was missing balls? Really? won't get into how that is measured in WAR but it is VERY subjective.

Realistically, I'm not even writing this to you, but the other forum members, because I know nothing can make you change your mind.

Here is how baseball reference calculates defensive WAR:

W-L% = ((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player))/((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player) + ((League Runs/Game / 2)- Player Defensive Runs)^(Runs/Game involving Player))
DWAA = (W-L% - .5) * Games Played
DWRSE = Player Defensive Runs / ((2 * (league Runs/Game)^.715) - (2 * (Runs per Game involving Player)^.715))
DWAR = DWAA + DWRSE

How much do you think this has to do with how many errors Carter committed?

How valuable do you think a player that never commits an error but covers an area the size of a basketball is to a team?

You've decided that WAR is somehow an arbitrary stat but how about we put this thing to a vote here? How many people do you think will vote for Carter?

No, I don't think its arbitrary. I think it has a certain value. Just NOT enough value to overrule every other statistical measure. Also in the dWAR calculation you did not explain how the other stats are created. Also if you REALLY think DWar is accurate that means you think Cal Ripken Jr. is the greatest the 3rd greatest defensive player of all-time. Listen Cal was a solid defensive player but only an idiot would actually think he is the third best defensive player of all time. You also have to think Gary Carter is the second best defensive catcher of all-time. Once again....not knocking Carters defense it was good. But I think this shows how the stat might be flawed. D-War has Andrew Jones the greatest defensive CF, not Mays, not Mantle, not Devon White, not Griffey, not Tris Speaker

But its whatever, I don't feel like breaking down why WAR and dWAR especially is a very weak stat and an argument about a players value shouldn't be based ONLY on it.

You know why dWAR has Andruw Jones a better defender than Griffey, Speaker, Mantle or White? It's because he was.

Ripken benefits from a long career full of full seasons played, but he is still way behind Ozzie and Andrelton Simmons will overtake him. Who should be clearly ahead of him? Vizquel? His defensive metrics are still well reflected in dWAR.

Who should be ahead of Gary Carter but isn't?

Also, this is such a far stretch of my argument (dare I say that it's a straw man?). We're not talking about the order of all time defensive greats and whether they align perfectly in terms of defensive WAR. They won't. But there is no all time defensive great that doesnt have dWAR significantly on the plus side. It works that way because overall dWAR still works to differentiate poor defenders from good ones.

Joe Carter was a terrible fielder who was a net-negative for his teams as a defender. Gordon was the opposite.

of course that is a circular argument. He was a better fielder because he had a better dWar. but anyway...is Ripken the third greatest defensive player of all time can you attempt to say that honestly. I don't even think he is like the 4th best SS I have ever seen.

Johnny Bench, Fisk and Yadi Molina should be ahead of Carter just off the top of my head

Also yes, DWar is not a total waste and yes good defenders seem to pop up on the list. But great hitters seem to pop up on the all time hit list but we both can agree we would not use that measure alone to say who the great hitters are.

I am not arguing against WAR. I am arguing against the singular use of WAR and dWAR

Okay, here:

According to fangraphs Joe Carter's fielding value was -86 and defensive value was -175.7.

Alex Gordon's fielding value is 84.2 and defensive value 27.4.

Literally on any metric Carter was an awful defender who cost his teams games on that side of the ball.

Maverick31762

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

You can point out minute differences between all time defensive greats in terms of dWAR till the cows come home, but all those defenders are still shown as significant net-positives for their teams because while dWAR is not perfect - it is still useful.

However if you'd rather compare Gordon's and Carter's UZR, we can do that.

This is a straw man....Gordon is a waaaaay better defender than Carter no argument there. I am just saying I think despite that Carter is a superior overall player. Especially because that the position it is LF and not very important defensively. Furthermore, because WAR isn't a standards based measure but is relative to other players. Gordon is being compared to weak fielders. Which goes into why WAR is silly to begin with. Carter is compared to the likes of Belle, Gonzalez and a bunch of steroid era monsters. Gordon not so much. but its whatever. Reason number 100 why WAR is flawed.

Maverick31762

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant.

Okay, one last time.

WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player.

None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense.

Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant.

WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout.

Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team

To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon.
Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that.

You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats!

Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser..

Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed

You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians

WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either.

Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts

I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial.

The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)).

OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s).

Defensively they arent remotely comparable.

You're missing the point that it is extremely difficult to provide additional wins into WAR and dWAR as a left fielder, but Gordon did. Meanwhile, Carter actually played under replacement level and actually cost his team games with his defense...

Why do you think Keith Hernandez' career dWAR is 1.3? Because although he was a great fielder, it is very difficult to provide additional defensive wins as a 1B. The fact that Gordon was able to produce 8.6 defensive wins based on dWAR as a left fielder is actually very impressive and shows that he actually had a net-positive impact there (unlike Carter).

Lastly, Bill James (not Will) is not the creator of WAR but win shares. He criticises WAR sure but how about you go to him and present your analysis between Carter and Gordon based on RBIs, stolen bases and all star appearances... Wonder what he would say to that....

We just disagree about the use of WAR as a singular stat. I think that ANY singular stat RBI, homers, BA etc is not as good as a full statistical analysis. I am not using ONE stat. When triangulating the data which any statistician on the planet would say is a better method of analyzing data than looking at any one stat you get a better idea of the player. Here are some facts

Carter is better stats in the following:

Homeruns (career, single season, per AB),
RBI (career, single season, per AB),
Steals (career, single season, per AB),
hits (career, single season, per AB),
Triples (career, single season, per AB),
Runs (career, single season, per AB),
BA (career)
Slugging (career, single season) - number of .500 SLG season
OPS (career, single season) - number of .800 OPS seasons
OPS+ (career)
All-Star selections
Top 10 MVP selections

Gordon played a great LF and a horrible 3B

WAR is a not a perfect stat. Here are a few articles that touch on it
WAR article
lThis WAR article touches other aspects of it that might directly impact this comparison

Here is an example of how BAD a stat WAR can be and you can find TONS when you start to look. Take a look at 1994 Carter
G AB R. H HR. RBI. SB BA. OBP. SLG. OPS
1994 34 TOR AL 111 435 70 118 27 103 11. .271 .317 .524 .841

I think its fair to say that a season like this that got him a top 10 MVP finish and an all star selection is not something that any typical replacement player could have pulled off. Clearly baseball people realize it was a great season thus the All Star selection and MVP votes. Those are good numbers. But according to WAR this won't even get you an extra win as the WAR for this season was 0.7. This is in large part due to his -1.6 dWAR. Wow such a bad dWAR you would think he was making tons of errors. Nope only 2 errors. So I guess he was missing balls? Really? won't get into how that is measured in WAR but it is VERY subjective.

Realistically, I'm not even writing this to you, but the other forum members, because I know nothing can make you change your mind.

Here is how baseball reference calculates defensive WAR:

W-L% = ((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player))/((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player) + ((League Runs/Game / 2)- Player Defensive Runs)^(Runs/Game involving Player))
DWAA = (W-L% - .5) * Games Played
DWRSE = Player Defensive Runs / ((2 * (league Runs/Game)^.715) - (2 * (Runs per Game involving Player)^.715))
DWAR = DWAA + DWRSE

How much do you think this has to do with how many errors Carter committed?

How valuable do you think a player that never commits an error but covers an area the size of a basketball is to a team?

You've decided that WAR is somehow an arbitrary stat but how about we put this thing to a vote here? How many people do you think will vote for Carter?

No, I don't think its arbitrary. I think it has a certain value. Just NOT enough value to overrule every other statistical measure. Also in the dWAR calculation you did not explain how the other stats are created. Also if you REALLY think DWar is accurate that means you think Cal Ripken Jr. is the greatest the 3rd greatest defensive player of all-time. Listen Cal was a solid defensive player but only an idiot would actually think he is the third best defensive player of all time. You also have to think Gary Carter is the second best defensive catcher of all-time. Once again....not knocking Carters defense it was good. But I think this shows how the stat might be flawed. D-War has Andrew Jones the greatest defensive CF, not Mays, not Mantle, not Devon White, not Griffey, not Tris Speaker

But its whatever, I don't feel like breaking down why WAR and dWAR especially is a very weak stat and an argument about a players value shouldn't be based ONLY on it.

You know why dWAR has Andruw Jones a better defender than Griffey, Speaker, Mantle or White? It's because he was.

Ripken benefits from a long career full of full seasons played, but he is still way behind Ozzie and Andrelton Simmons will overtake him. Who should be clearly ahead of him? Vizquel? His defensive metrics are still well reflected in dWAR.

Who should be ahead of Gary Carter but isn't?

Also, this is such a far stretch of my argument (dare I say that it's a straw man?). We're not talking about the order of all time defensive greats and whether they align perfectly in terms of defensive WAR. They won't. But there is no all time defensive great that doesnt have dWAR significantly on the plus side. It works that way because overall dWAR still works to differentiate poor defenders from good ones.

Joe Carter was a terrible fielder who was a net-negative for his teams as a defender. Gordon was the opposite.

of course that is a circular argument. He was a better fielder because he had a better dWar. but anyway...is Ripken the third greatest defensive player of all time can you attempt to say that honestly. I don't even think he is like the 4th best SS I have ever seen.

Johnny Bench, Fisk and Yadi Molina should be ahead of Carter just off the top of my head

Also yes, DWar is not a total waste and yes good defenders seem to pop up on the list. But great hitters seem to pop up on the all time hit list but we both can agree we would not use that measure alone to say who the great hitters are.

I am not arguing against WAR. I am arguing against the singular use of WAR and dWAR

Okay, here:

According to fangraphs Joe Carter's fielding value was -86 and defensive value was -175.7.

Alex Gordon's fielding value is 84.2 and defensive value 27.4.

Literally on any metric Carter was an awful defender who cost his teams games on that side of the ball.

Well first you are misinterpreting WAR. He didn't cost his team games. It means that the average player during that time made that much of a difference. Furthermore, its a comparative stat. He could have been bad in an era when there were tons of good LF....like a Bonds. It also could mean that the manager did a bad job of where he positioned him or that he played in difficult LF...like Fenway and Yankee stadium. There are sooo many flaws to the measure that it just doesn't say much. And if you really think Joe Carter was Soooo bad on defense it nullified his offense that is silly on its face. How many balls went out to left that he made a bad play on vs the over 100 times he was able to drive a hitter in a season.

DriveByTrucker17

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant.

Okay, one last time.

WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player.

None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense.

Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant.

WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout.

Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team

To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon.
Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that.

You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats!

Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser..

Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed

You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians

WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either.

Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts

I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial.

The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)).

OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s).

Defensively they arent remotely comparable.

You're missing the point that it is extremely difficult to provide additional wins into WAR and dWAR as a left fielder, but Gordon did. Meanwhile, Carter actually played under replacement level and actually cost his team games with his defense...

Why do you think Keith Hernandez' career dWAR is 1.3? Because although he was a great fielder, it is very difficult to provide additional defensive wins as a 1B. The fact that Gordon was able to produce 8.6 defensive wins based on dWAR as a left fielder is actually very impressive and shows that he actually had a net-positive impact there (unlike Carter).

Lastly, Bill James (not Will) is not the creator of WAR but win shares. He criticises WAR sure but how about you go to him and present your analysis between Carter and Gordon based on RBIs, stolen bases and all star appearances... Wonder what he would say to that....

We just disagree about the use of WAR as a singular stat. I think that ANY singular stat RBI, homers, BA etc is not as good as a full statistical analysis. I am not using ONE stat. When triangulating the data which any statistician on the planet would say is a better method of analyzing data than looking at any one stat you get a better idea of the player. Here are some facts

Carter is better stats in the following:

Homeruns (career, single season, per AB),
RBI (career, single season, per AB),
Steals (career, single season, per AB),
hits (career, single season, per AB),
Triples (career, single season, per AB),
Runs (career, single season, per AB),
BA (career)
Slugging (career, single season) - number of .500 SLG season
OPS (career, single season) - number of .800 OPS seasons
OPS+ (career)
All-Star selections
Top 10 MVP selections

Gordon played a great LF and a horrible 3B

WAR is a not a perfect stat. Here are a few articles that touch on it
WAR article
lThis WAR article touches other aspects of it that might directly impact this comparison

Here is an example of how BAD a stat WAR can be and you can find TONS when you start to look. Take a look at 1994 Carter
G AB R. H HR. RBI. SB BA. OBP. SLG. OPS
1994 34 TOR AL 111 435 70 118 27 103 11. .271 .317 .524 .841

I think its fair to say that a season like this that got him a top 10 MVP finish and an all star selection is not something that any typical replacement player could have pulled off. Clearly baseball people realize it was a great season thus the All Star selection and MVP votes. Those are good numbers. But according to WAR this won't even get you an extra win as the WAR for this season was 0.7. This is in large part due to his -1.6 dWAR. Wow such a bad dWAR you would think he was making tons of errors. Nope only 2 errors. So I guess he was missing balls? Really? won't get into how that is measured in WAR but it is VERY subjective.

Realistically, I'm not even writing this to you, but the other forum members, because I know nothing can make you change your mind.

Here is how baseball reference calculates defensive WAR:

W-L% = ((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player))/((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player) + ((League Runs/Game / 2)- Player Defensive Runs)^(Runs/Game involving Player))
DWAA = (W-L% - .5) * Games Played
DWRSE = Player Defensive Runs / ((2 * (league Runs/Game)^.715) - (2 * (Runs per Game involving Player)^.715))
DWAR = DWAA + DWRSE

How much do you think this has to do with how many errors Carter committed?

How valuable do you think a player that never commits an error but covers an area the size of a basketball is to a team?

You've decided that WAR is somehow an arbitrary stat but how about we put this thing to a vote here? How many people do you think will vote for Carter?

No, I don't think its arbitrary. I think it has a certain value. Just NOT enough value to overrule every other statistical measure. Also in the dWAR calculation you did not explain how the other stats are created. Also if you REALLY think DWar is accurate that means you think Cal Ripken Jr. is the greatest the 3rd greatest defensive player of all-time. Listen Cal was a solid defensive player but only an idiot would actually think he is the third best defensive player of all time. You also have to think Gary Carter is the second best defensive catcher of all-time. Once again....not knocking Carters defense it was good. But I think this shows how the stat might be flawed. D-War has Andrew Jones the greatest defensive CF, not Mays, not Mantle, not Devon White, not Griffey, not Tris Speaker

But its whatever, I don't feel like breaking down why WAR and dWAR especially is a very weak stat and an argument about a players value shouldn't be based ONLY on it.

You know why dWAR has Andruw Jones a better defender than Griffey, Speaker, Mantle or White? It's because he was.

Ripken benefits from a long career full of full seasons played, but he is still way behind Ozzie and Andrelton Simmons will overtake him. Who should be clearly ahead of him? Vizquel? His defensive metrics are still well reflected in dWAR.

Who should be ahead of Gary Carter but isn't?

Also, this is such a far stretch of my argument (dare I say that it's a straw man?). We're not talking about the order of all time defensive greats and whether they align perfectly in terms of defensive WAR. They won't. But there is no all time defensive great that doesnt have dWAR significantly on the plus side. It works that way because overall dWAR still works to differentiate poor defenders from good ones.

Joe Carter was a terrible fielder who was a net-negative for his teams as a defender. Gordon was the opposite.

of course that is a circular argument. He was a better fielder because he had a better dWar. but anyway...is Ripken the third greatest defensive player of all time can you attempt to say that honestly. I don't even think he is like the 4th best SS I have ever seen.

Johnny Bench, Fisk and Yadi Molina should be ahead of Carter just off the top of my head

Also yes, DWar is not a total waste and yes good defenders seem to pop up on the list. But great hitters seem to pop up on the all time hit list but we both can agree we would not use that measure alone to say who the great hitters are.

I am not arguing against WAR. I am arguing against the singular use of WAR and dWAR

Okay, here:

According to fangraphs Joe Carter's fielding value was -86 and defensive value was -175.7.

Alex Gordon's fielding value is 84.2 and defensive value 27.4.

Literally on any metric Carter was an awful defender who cost his teams games on that side of the ball.

Just absolutely insane how this guy can NEVER admit he’s wrong.

Most people would agree that if two players have similar dWAR numbers, then you can’t really say one is definitively better than the other.

But in this case, they are SO far off that there isn’t a single argument to be made for Joe Carter being a good defender, and certainly not for him being better or equal to Alex Gordon. The sheer stubbornness being displayed in this thread is pretty embarrassing.

SefarR_PSN

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant.

Okay, one last time.

WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player.

None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense.

Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant.

WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout.

Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team

To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon.
Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that.

You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats!

Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser..

Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed

You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians

WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either.

Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts

I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial.

The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)).

OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s).

Defensively they arent remotely comparable.

You're missing the point that it is extremely difficult to provide additional wins into WAR and dWAR as a left fielder, but Gordon did. Meanwhile, Carter actually played under replacement level and actually cost his team games with his defense...

Why do you think Keith Hernandez' career dWAR is 1.3? Because although he was a great fielder, it is very difficult to provide additional defensive wins as a 1B. The fact that Gordon was able to produce 8.6 defensive wins based on dWAR as a left fielder is actually very impressive and shows that he actually had a net-positive impact there (unlike Carter).

Lastly, Bill James (not Will) is not the creator of WAR but win shares. He criticises WAR sure but how about you go to him and present your analysis between Carter and Gordon based on RBIs, stolen bases and all star appearances... Wonder what he would say to that....

We just disagree about the use of WAR as a singular stat. I think that ANY singular stat RBI, homers, BA etc is not as good as a full statistical analysis. I am not using ONE stat. When triangulating the data which any statistician on the planet would say is a better method of analyzing data than looking at any one stat you get a better idea of the player. Here are some facts

Carter is better stats in the following:

Homeruns (career, single season, per AB),
RBI (career, single season, per AB),
Steals (career, single season, per AB),
hits (career, single season, per AB),
Triples (career, single season, per AB),
Runs (career, single season, per AB),
BA (career)
Slugging (career, single season) - number of .500 SLG season
OPS (career, single season) - number of .800 OPS seasons
OPS+ (career)
All-Star selections
Top 10 MVP selections

Gordon played a great LF and a horrible 3B

WAR is a not a perfect stat. Here are a few articles that touch on it
WAR article
lThis WAR article touches other aspects of it that might directly impact this comparison

Here is an example of how BAD a stat WAR can be and you can find TONS when you start to look. Take a look at 1994 Carter
G AB R. H HR. RBI. SB BA. OBP. SLG. OPS
1994 34 TOR AL 111 435 70 118 27 103 11. .271 .317 .524 .841

I think its fair to say that a season like this that got him a top 10 MVP finish and an all star selection is not something that any typical replacement player could have pulled off. Clearly baseball people realize it was a great season thus the All Star selection and MVP votes. Those are good numbers. But according to WAR this won't even get you an extra win as the WAR for this season was 0.7. This is in large part due to his -1.6 dWAR. Wow such a bad dWAR you would think he was making tons of errors. Nope only 2 errors. So I guess he was missing balls? Really? won't get into how that is measured in WAR but it is VERY subjective.

Realistically, I'm not even writing this to you, but the other forum members, because I know nothing can make you change your mind.

Here is how baseball reference calculates defensive WAR:

W-L% = ((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player))/((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player) + ((League Runs/Game / 2)- Player Defensive Runs)^(Runs/Game involving Player))
DWAA = (W-L% - .5) * Games Played
DWRSE = Player Defensive Runs / ((2 * (league Runs/Game)^.715) - (2 * (Runs per Game involving Player)^.715))
DWAR = DWAA + DWRSE

How much do you think this has to do with how many errors Carter committed?

How valuable do you think a player that never commits an error but covers an area the size of a basketball is to a team?

You've decided that WAR is somehow an arbitrary stat but how about we put this thing to a vote here? How many people do you think will vote for Carter?

No, I don't think its arbitrary. I think it has a certain value. Just NOT enough value to overrule every other statistical measure. Also in the dWAR calculation you did not explain how the other stats are created. Also if you REALLY think DWar is accurate that means you think Cal Ripken Jr. is the greatest the 3rd greatest defensive player of all-time. Listen Cal was a solid defensive player but only an idiot would actually think he is the third best defensive player of all time. You also have to think Gary Carter is the second best defensive catcher of all-time. Once again....not knocking Carters defense it was good. But I think this shows how the stat might be flawed. D-War has Andrew Jones the greatest defensive CF, not Mays, not Mantle, not Devon White, not Griffey, not Tris Speaker

But its whatever, I don't feel like breaking down why WAR and dWAR especially is a very weak stat and an argument about a players value shouldn't be based ONLY on it.

You know why dWAR has Andruw Jones a better defender than Griffey, Speaker, Mantle or White? It's because he was.

Ripken benefits from a long career full of full seasons played, but he is still way behind Ozzie and Andrelton Simmons will overtake him. Who should be clearly ahead of him? Vizquel? His defensive metrics are still well reflected in dWAR.

Who should be ahead of Gary Carter but isn't?

Also, this is such a far stretch of my argument (dare I say that it's a straw man?). We're not talking about the order of all time defensive greats and whether they align perfectly in terms of defensive WAR. They won't. But there is no all time defensive great that doesnt have dWAR significantly on the plus side. It works that way because overall dWAR still works to differentiate poor defenders from good ones.

Joe Carter was a terrible fielder who was a net-negative for his teams as a defender. Gordon was the opposite.

of course that is a circular argument. He was a better fielder because he had a better dWar. but anyway...is Ripken the third greatest defensive player of all time can you attempt to say that honestly. I don't even think he is like the 4th best SS I have ever seen.

Johnny Bench, Fisk and Yadi Molina should be ahead of Carter just off the top of my head

Also yes, DWar is not a total waste and yes good defenders seem to pop up on the list. But great hitters seem to pop up on the all time hit list but we both can agree we would not use that measure alone to say who the great hitters are.

I am not arguing against WAR. I am arguing against the singular use of WAR and dWAR

Okay, here:

According to fangraphs Joe Carter's fielding value was -86 and defensive value was -175.7.

Alex Gordon's fielding value is 84.2 and defensive value 27.4.

Literally on any metric Carter was an awful defender who cost his teams games on that side of the ball.

Well first you are misinterpreting WAR. He didn't cost his team games. It means that the average player during that time made that much of a difference. Furthermore, its a comparative stat. He could have been bad in an era when there were tons of good LF....like a Bonds. It also could mean that the manager did a bad job of where he positioned him or that he played in difficult LF...like Fenway and Yankee stadium. There are sooo many flaws to the measure that it just doesn't say much. And if you really think Joe Carter was Soooo bad on defense it nullified his offense that is silly on its face. How many balls went out to left that he made a bad play on vs the over 100 times he was able to drive a hitter in a season.

Yeaaaahhh...

You're never going to understand this.

How about we just leave it to the other forum members to decide.

After you have the last word of course. (Or can you help it this time?)

Maverick31762

@DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant.

Okay, one last time.

WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player.

None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense.

Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant.

WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout.

Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team

To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon.
Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that.

You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats!

Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser..

Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed

You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians

WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either.

Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts

I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial.

The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)).

OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s).

Defensively they arent remotely comparable.

You're missing the point that it is extremely difficult to provide additional wins into WAR and dWAR as a left fielder, but Gordon did. Meanwhile, Carter actually played under replacement level and actually cost his team games with his defense...

Why do you think Keith Hernandez' career dWAR is 1.3? Because although he was a great fielder, it is very difficult to provide additional defensive wins as a 1B. The fact that Gordon was able to produce 8.6 defensive wins based on dWAR as a left fielder is actually very impressive and shows that he actually had a net-positive impact there (unlike Carter).

Lastly, Bill James (not Will) is not the creator of WAR but win shares. He criticises WAR sure but how about you go to him and present your analysis between Carter and Gordon based on RBIs, stolen bases and all star appearances... Wonder what he would say to that....

We just disagree about the use of WAR as a singular stat. I think that ANY singular stat RBI, homers, BA etc is not as good as a full statistical analysis. I am not using ONE stat. When triangulating the data which any statistician on the planet would say is a better method of analyzing data than looking at any one stat you get a better idea of the player. Here are some facts

Carter is better stats in the following:

Homeruns (career, single season, per AB),
RBI (career, single season, per AB),
Steals (career, single season, per AB),
hits (career, single season, per AB),
Triples (career, single season, per AB),
Runs (career, single season, per AB),
BA (career)
Slugging (career, single season) - number of .500 SLG season
OPS (career, single season) - number of .800 OPS seasons
OPS+ (career)
All-Star selections
Top 10 MVP selections

Gordon played a great LF and a horrible 3B

WAR is a not a perfect stat. Here are a few articles that touch on it
WAR article
lThis WAR article touches other aspects of it that might directly impact this comparison

Here is an example of how BAD a stat WAR can be and you can find TONS when you start to look. Take a look at 1994 Carter
G AB R. H HR. RBI. SB BA. OBP. SLG. OPS
1994 34 TOR AL 111 435 70 118 27 103 11. .271 .317 .524 .841

I think its fair to say that a season like this that got him a top 10 MVP finish and an all star selection is not something that any typical replacement player could have pulled off. Clearly baseball people realize it was a great season thus the All Star selection and MVP votes. Those are good numbers. But according to WAR this won't even get you an extra win as the WAR for this season was 0.7. This is in large part due to his -1.6 dWAR. Wow such a bad dWAR you would think he was making tons of errors. Nope only 2 errors. So I guess he was missing balls? Really? won't get into how that is measured in WAR but it is VERY subjective.

Realistically, I'm not even writing this to you, but the other forum members, because I know nothing can make you change your mind.

Here is how baseball reference calculates defensive WAR:

W-L% = ((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player))/((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player) + ((League Runs/Game / 2)- Player Defensive Runs)^(Runs/Game involving Player))
DWAA = (W-L% - .5) * Games Played
DWRSE = Player Defensive Runs / ((2 * (league Runs/Game)^.715) - (2 * (Runs per Game involving Player)^.715))
DWAR = DWAA + DWRSE

How much do you think this has to do with how many errors Carter committed?

How valuable do you think a player that never commits an error but covers an area the size of a basketball is to a team?

You've decided that WAR is somehow an arbitrary stat but how about we put this thing to a vote here? How many people do you think will vote for Carter?

No, I don't think its arbitrary. I think it has a certain value. Just NOT enough value to overrule every other statistical measure. Also in the dWAR calculation you did not explain how the other stats are created. Also if you REALLY think DWar is accurate that means you think Cal Ripken Jr. is the greatest the 3rd greatest defensive player of all-time. Listen Cal was a solid defensive player but only an idiot would actually think he is the third best defensive player of all time. You also have to think Gary Carter is the second best defensive catcher of all-time. Once again....not knocking Carters defense it was good. But I think this shows how the stat might be flawed. D-War has Andrew Jones the greatest defensive CF, not Mays, not Mantle, not Devon White, not Griffey, not Tris Speaker

But its whatever, I don't feel like breaking down why WAR and dWAR especially is a very weak stat and an argument about a players value shouldn't be based ONLY on it.

You know why dWAR has Andruw Jones a better defender than Griffey, Speaker, Mantle or White? It's because he was.

Ripken benefits from a long career full of full seasons played, but he is still way behind Ozzie and Andrelton Simmons will overtake him. Who should be clearly ahead of him? Vizquel? His defensive metrics are still well reflected in dWAR.

Who should be ahead of Gary Carter but isn't?

Also, this is such a far stretch of my argument (dare I say that it's a straw man?). We're not talking about the order of all time defensive greats and whether they align perfectly in terms of defensive WAR. They won't. But there is no all time defensive great that doesnt have dWAR significantly on the plus side. It works that way because overall dWAR still works to differentiate poor defenders from good ones.

Joe Carter was a terrible fielder who was a net-negative for his teams as a defender. Gordon was the opposite.

of course that is a circular argument. He was a better fielder because he had a better dWar. but anyway...is Ripken the third greatest defensive player of all time can you attempt to say that honestly. I don't even think he is like the 4th best SS I have ever seen.

Johnny Bench, Fisk and Yadi Molina should be ahead of Carter just off the top of my head

Also yes, DWar is not a total waste and yes good defenders seem to pop up on the list. But great hitters seem to pop up on the all time hit list but we both can agree we would not use that measure alone to say who the great hitters are.

I am not arguing against WAR. I am arguing against the singular use of WAR and dWAR

Okay, here:

According to fangraphs Joe Carter's fielding value was -86 and defensive value was -175.7.

Alex Gordon's fielding value is 84.2 and defensive value 27.4.

Literally on any metric Carter was an awful defender who cost his teams games on that side of the ball.

Just absolutely insane how this guy can NEVER admit he’s wrong.

Most people would agree that if two players have similar dWAR numbers, then you can’t really say one is definitively better than the other.

But in this case, they are SO far off that there isn’t a single argument to be made for Joe Carter being a good defender, and certainly not for him being better or equal to Alex Gordon. The sheer stubbornness being displayed in this thread is pretty embarrassing.

Actually I have admitted being wrong a few times

I have NEVER made the claim that Carter is in Gordon’s league on defense. If you can show me that go ahead

I have debated with you about the WAR stat before and you give poor arguments and revert to name calling.

Ironically, the real reason why I think Carter should get a SS is because all the other legends who were In first group all have. But anyway, for you this was just you jumping into a debate with nothing to say but being your usually sheep self

Maverick31762

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant.

Okay, one last time.

WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player.

None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense.

Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant.

WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout.

Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team

To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon.
Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that.

You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats!

Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser..

Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed

You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians

WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either.

Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts

I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial.

The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)).

OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s).

Defensively they arent remotely comparable.

You're missing the point that it is extremely difficult to provide additional wins into WAR and dWAR as a left fielder, but Gordon did. Meanwhile, Carter actually played under replacement level and actually cost his team games with his defense...

Why do you think Keith Hernandez' career dWAR is 1.3? Because although he was a great fielder, it is very difficult to provide additional defensive wins as a 1B. The fact that Gordon was able to produce 8.6 defensive wins based on dWAR as a left fielder is actually very impressive and shows that he actually had a net-positive impact there (unlike Carter).

Lastly, Bill James (not Will) is not the creator of WAR but win shares. He criticises WAR sure but how about you go to him and present your analysis between Carter and Gordon based on RBIs, stolen bases and all star appearances... Wonder what he would say to that....

We just disagree about the use of WAR as a singular stat. I think that ANY singular stat RBI, homers, BA etc is not as good as a full statistical analysis. I am not using ONE stat. When triangulating the data which any statistician on the planet would say is a better method of analyzing data than looking at any one stat you get a better idea of the player. Here are some facts

Carter is better stats in the following:

Homeruns (career, single season, per AB),
RBI (career, single season, per AB),
Steals (career, single season, per AB),
hits (career, single season, per AB),
Triples (career, single season, per AB),
Runs (career, single season, per AB),
BA (career)
Slugging (career, single season) - number of .500 SLG season
OPS (career, single season) - number of .800 OPS seasons
OPS+ (career)
All-Star selections
Top 10 MVP selections

Gordon played a great LF and a horrible 3B

WAR is a not a perfect stat. Here are a few articles that touch on it
WAR article
lThis WAR article touches other aspects of it that might directly impact this comparison

Here is an example of how BAD a stat WAR can be and you can find TONS when you start to look. Take a look at 1994 Carter
G AB R. H HR. RBI. SB BA. OBP. SLG. OPS
1994 34 TOR AL 111 435 70 118 27 103 11. .271 .317 .524 .841

I think its fair to say that a season like this that got him a top 10 MVP finish and an all star selection is not something that any typical replacement player could have pulled off. Clearly baseball people realize it was a great season thus the All Star selection and MVP votes. Those are good numbers. But according to WAR this won't even get you an extra win as the WAR for this season was 0.7. This is in large part due to his -1.6 dWAR. Wow such a bad dWAR you would think he was making tons of errors. Nope only 2 errors. So I guess he was missing balls? Really? won't get into how that is measured in WAR but it is VERY subjective.

Realistically, I'm not even writing this to you, but the other forum members, because I know nothing can make you change your mind.

Here is how baseball reference calculates defensive WAR:

W-L% = ((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player))/((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player) + ((League Runs/Game / 2)- Player Defensive Runs)^(Runs/Game involving Player))
DWAA = (W-L% - .5) * Games Played
DWRSE = Player Defensive Runs / ((2 * (league Runs/Game)^.715) - (2 * (Runs per Game involving Player)^.715))
DWAR = DWAA + DWRSE

How much do you think this has to do with how many errors Carter committed?

How valuable do you think a player that never commits an error but covers an area the size of a basketball is to a team?

You've decided that WAR is somehow an arbitrary stat but how about we put this thing to a vote here? How many people do you think will vote for Carter?

No, I don't think its arbitrary. I think it has a certain value. Just NOT enough value to overrule every other statistical measure. Also in the dWAR calculation you did not explain how the other stats are created. Also if you REALLY think DWar is accurate that means you think Cal Ripken Jr. is the greatest the 3rd greatest defensive player of all-time. Listen Cal was a solid defensive player but only an idiot would actually think he is the third best defensive player of all time. You also have to think Gary Carter is the second best defensive catcher of all-time. Once again....not knocking Carters defense it was good. But I think this shows how the stat might be flawed. D-War has Andrew Jones the greatest defensive CF, not Mays, not Mantle, not Devon White, not Griffey, not Tris Speaker

But its whatever, I don't feel like breaking down why WAR and dWAR especially is a very weak stat and an argument about a players value shouldn't be based ONLY on it.

You know why dWAR has Andruw Jones a better defender than Griffey, Speaker, Mantle or White? It's because he was.

Ripken benefits from a long career full of full seasons played, but he is still way behind Ozzie and Andrelton Simmons will overtake him. Who should be clearly ahead of him? Vizquel? His defensive metrics are still well reflected in dWAR.

Who should be ahead of Gary Carter but isn't?

Also, this is such a far stretch of my argument (dare I say that it's a straw man?). We're not talking about the order of all time defensive greats and whether they align perfectly in terms of defensive WAR. They won't. But there is no all time defensive great that doesnt have dWAR significantly on the plus side. It works that way because overall dWAR still works to differentiate poor defenders from good ones.

Joe Carter was a terrible fielder who was a net-negative for his teams as a defender. Gordon was the opposite.

of course that is a circular argument. He was a better fielder because he had a better dWar. but anyway...is Ripken the third greatest defensive player of all time can you attempt to say that honestly. I don't even think he is like the 4th best SS I have ever seen.

Johnny Bench, Fisk and Yadi Molina should be ahead of Carter just off the top of my head

Also yes, DWar is not a total waste and yes good defenders seem to pop up on the list. But great hitters seem to pop up on the all time hit list but we both can agree we would not use that measure alone to say who the great hitters are.

I am not arguing against WAR. I am arguing against the singular use of WAR and dWAR

Okay, here:

According to fangraphs Joe Carter's fielding value was -86 and defensive value was -175.7.

Alex Gordon's fielding value is 84.2 and defensive value 27.4.

Literally on any metric Carter was an awful defender who cost his teams games on that side of the ball.

Well first you are misinterpreting WAR. He didn't cost his team games. It means that the average player during that time made that much of a difference. Furthermore, its a comparative stat. He could have been bad in an era when there were tons of good LF....like a Bonds. It also could mean that the manager did a bad job of where he positioned him or that he played in difficult LF...like Fenway and Yankee stadium. There are sooo many flaws to the measure that it just doesn't say much. And if you really think Joe Carter was Soooo bad on defense it nullified his offense that is silly on its face. How many balls went out to left that he made a bad play on vs the over 100 times he was able to drive a hitter in a season.

Yeaaaahhh...

You're never going to understand this.

How about we just leave it to the other forum members to decide.

After you have the last word of course. (Or can you help it this time?)

I do understand I just disagree. It’s not a misunderstanding it’s a disagreement there is a difference.

Leaving it to forum members?

If you mean if Carter gets a SS that is up to SDS.
In terms of the WAR argument if a member can bring valid points sure. But decisions by popularity contest is not particularly intelligent imo
Last word. I thought you might be able to get through a conversation without being a douche. The last word thing is disingenuous. To call someone out and then say they need the last word is a lame attempt at getting the last word. If you wanted to end it you could have just said agree to disagree and move on. I think i did this a few times but whatever. You are what you are.

hegone44_PSN

Hopefully none. Already too many OP versions of players in this game already. And people stop saying Niekro and Tiant. Knucklers ruin the game.

ayman718_PSN

@SFennell3 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

Brett and Orel would be amazing.

5 others I'd like to see:
Don Mattingly
Hal Newhouser
Jake Arrieta
Pablo Sandoval
Pat Neshek

You want an SS Neshek??

hegone44_PSN

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant.

Okay, one last time.

WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player.

None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense.

Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant.

WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout.

Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team

To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon.
Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that.

You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats!

Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser..

Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed

You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians

WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either.

Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts

I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial.

The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)).

OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s).

Defensively they arent remotely comparable.

You're missing the point that it is extremely difficult to provide additional wins into WAR and dWAR as a left fielder, but Gordon did. Meanwhile, Carter actually played under replacement level and actually cost his team games with his defense...

Why do you think Keith Hernandez' career dWAR is 1.3? Because although he was a great fielder, it is very difficult to provide additional defensive wins as a 1B. The fact that Gordon was able to produce 8.6 defensive wins based on dWAR as a left fielder is actually very impressive and shows that he actually had a net-positive impact there (unlike Carter).

Lastly, Bill James (not Will) is not the creator of WAR but win shares. He criticises WAR sure but how about you go to him and present your analysis between Carter and Gordon based on RBIs, stolen bases and all star appearances... Wonder what he would say to that....

We just disagree about the use of WAR as a singular stat. I think that ANY singular stat RBI, homers, BA etc is not as good as a full statistical analysis. I am not using ONE stat. When triangulating the data which any statistician on the planet would say is a better method of analyzing data than looking at any one stat you get a better idea of the player. Here are some facts

Carter is better stats in the following:

Homeruns (career, single season, per AB),
RBI (career, single season, per AB),
Steals (career, single season, per AB),
hits (career, single season, per AB),
Triples (career, single season, per AB),
Runs (career, single season, per AB),
BA (career)
Slugging (career, single season) - number of .500 SLG season
OPS (career, single season) - number of .800 OPS seasons
OPS+ (career)
All-Star selections
Top 10 MVP selections

Gordon played a great LF and a horrible 3B

WAR is a not a perfect stat. Here are a few articles that touch on it
WAR article
lThis WAR article touches other aspects of it that might directly impact this comparison

Here is an example of how BAD a stat WAR can be and you can find TONS when you start to look. Take a look at 1994 Carter
G AB R. H HR. RBI. SB BA. OBP. SLG. OPS
1994 34 TOR AL 111 435 70 118 27 103 11. .271 .317 .524 .841

I think its fair to say that a season like this that got him a top 10 MVP finish and an all star selection is not something that any typical replacement player could have pulled off. Clearly baseball people realize it was a great season thus the All Star selection and MVP votes. Those are good numbers. But according to WAR this won't even get you an extra win as the WAR for this season was 0.7. This is in large part due to his -1.6 dWAR. Wow such a bad dWAR you would think he was making tons of errors. Nope only 2 errors. So I guess he was missing balls? Really? won't get into how that is measured in WAR but it is VERY subjective.

Realistically, I'm not even writing this to you, but the other forum members, because I know nothing can make you change your mind.

Here is how baseball reference calculates defensive WAR:

W-L% = ((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player))/((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player) + ((League Runs/Game / 2)- Player Defensive Runs)^(Runs/Game involving Player))
DWAA = (W-L% - .5) * Games Played
DWRSE = Player Defensive Runs / ((2 * (league Runs/Game)^.715) - (2 * (Runs per Game involving Player)^.715))
DWAR = DWAA + DWRSE

How much do you think this has to do with how many errors Carter committed?

How valuable do you think a player that never commits an error but covers an area the size of a basketball is to a team?

You've decided that WAR is somehow an arbitrary stat but how about we put this thing to a vote here? How many people do you think will vote for Carter?

WAR tells much more about a player than any of those base stats used together. Gordon’s career is better than Carter’s, and only a true moron would think otherwise.

Driver when you don't have a good argument the classic move of unintelligent people is to name call. I disagree with Sefar, but he is smart enough to have an intelligent argument without an insult. But when we last had a WAR debate I asked if you have EVER taken more than 6 credits in Math or statistics, if you have EVER taken a undergraduate or masters level statistics class. If you have have even 60 college credits. I also asked if you have ever had to use stats or develop statistical analysis in ANY professional manner. I can answer YES to all of those and to me that is not a high bar. So before you call someone a moron you should look in the mirror.

Hopefully I have enough college math credit to qualify for a conversation about baseball stats, but I digress...

Most people would argue, as you have, that Joe Carter was a far superior hitter, and that offensive superiority over Gordon outweighs Gordon's defensive superiority over Carter. Fair enough. I've seen both these guys play and, based on my memories, I'd have thought that too. However, our memories/eyes lie all the time. Here's a slash line comparison:

Gordon: .258/.339/.413/.752
Carter: .259/.306/.464/.770

Now defense. By ANY metric available Gordon is the far superior defensive player. Fangraphs Def rating difference is +27.4 for Gordon to -175.7 for Carter. Baseball Ref dWAR is +8.6 for Gordon to -15.7 for Carter.

So, to recap, OPS is essentially a pick-em, especially since Gordon has a decided edge in the most important offensive category (OBP). Defense is a landslide in Gordon's favor. That's why the difference in WAR is pretty dramatic.

So if I'm an AL team and can DH Carter then maybe I'll take him. But if he has to play a COF position, Gordon will help my team more in the long run. Bottom line is Joe Carter was not nearly as good as we remember.

SFennell3_PSN

@ayman718 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SFennell3 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

Brett and Orel would be amazing.

5 others I'd like to see:
Don Mattingly
Hal Newhouser
Jake Arrieta
Pablo Sandoval
Pat Neshek

You want an SS Neshek??

Heck yeah (although super unrealistic lol...) Bring on the cheese!

Maverick31762

@hegone44 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant.

Okay, one last time.

WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player.

None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense.

Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant.

WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout.

Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team

To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon.
Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that.

You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats!

Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser..

Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed

You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians

WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either.

Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts

I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial.

The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)).

OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s).

Defensively they arent remotely comparable.

You're missing the point that it is extremely difficult to provide additional wins into WAR and dWAR as a left fielder, but Gordon did. Meanwhile, Carter actually played under replacement level and actually cost his team games with his defense...

Why do you think Keith Hernandez' career dWAR is 1.3? Because although he was a great fielder, it is very difficult to provide additional defensive wins as a 1B. The fact that Gordon was able to produce 8.6 defensive wins based on dWAR as a left fielder is actually very impressive and shows that he actually had a net-positive impact there (unlike Carter).

Lastly, Bill James (not Will) is not the creator of WAR but win shares. He criticises WAR sure but how about you go to him and present your analysis between Carter and Gordon based on RBIs, stolen bases and all star appearances... Wonder what he would say to that....

We just disagree about the use of WAR as a singular stat. I think that ANY singular stat RBI, homers, BA etc is not as good as a full statistical analysis. I am not using ONE stat. When triangulating the data which any statistician on the planet would say is a better method of analyzing data than looking at any one stat you get a better idea of the player. Here are some facts

Carter is better stats in the following:

Homeruns (career, single season, per AB),
RBI (career, single season, per AB),
Steals (career, single season, per AB),
hits (career, single season, per AB),
Triples (career, single season, per AB),
Runs (career, single season, per AB),
BA (career)
Slugging (career, single season) - number of .500 SLG season
OPS (career, single season) - number of .800 OPS seasons
OPS+ (career)
All-Star selections
Top 10 MVP selections

Gordon played a great LF and a horrible 3B

WAR is a not a perfect stat. Here are a few articles that touch on it
WAR article
lThis WAR article touches other aspects of it that might directly impact this comparison

Here is an example of how BAD a stat WAR can be and you can find TONS when you start to look. Take a look at 1994 Carter
G AB R. H HR. RBI. SB BA. OBP. SLG. OPS
1994 34 TOR AL 111 435 70 118 27 103 11. .271 .317 .524 .841

I think its fair to say that a season like this that got him a top 10 MVP finish and an all star selection is not something that any typical replacement player could have pulled off. Clearly baseball people realize it was a great season thus the All Star selection and MVP votes. Those are good numbers. But according to WAR this won't even get you an extra win as the WAR for this season was 0.7. This is in large part due to his -1.6 dWAR. Wow such a bad dWAR you would think he was making tons of errors. Nope only 2 errors. So I guess he was missing balls? Really? won't get into how that is measured in WAR but it is VERY subjective.

Realistically, I'm not even writing this to you, but the other forum members, because I know nothing can make you change your mind.

Here is how baseball reference calculates defensive WAR:

W-L% = ((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player))/((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player) + ((League Runs/Game / 2)- Player Defensive Runs)^(Runs/Game involving Player))
DWAA = (W-L% - .5) * Games Played
DWRSE = Player Defensive Runs / ((2 * (league Runs/Game)^.715) - (2 * (Runs per Game involving Player)^.715))
DWAR = DWAA + DWRSE

How much do you think this has to do with how many errors Carter committed?

How valuable do you think a player that never commits an error but covers an area the size of a basketball is to a team?

You've decided that WAR is somehow an arbitrary stat but how about we put this thing to a vote here? How many people do you think will vote for Carter?

WAR tells much more about a player than any of those base stats used together. Gordon’s career is better than Carter’s, and only a true moron would think otherwise.

Driver when you don't have a good argument the classic move of unintelligent people is to name call. I disagree with Sefar, but he is smart enough to have an intelligent argument without an insult. But when we last had a WAR debate I asked if you have EVER taken more than 6 credits in Math or statistics, if you have EVER taken a undergraduate or masters level statistics class. If you have have even 60 college credits. I also asked if you have ever had to use stats or develop statistical analysis in ANY professional manner. I can answer YES to all of those and to me that is not a high bar. So before you call someone a moron you should look in the mirror.

Hopefully I have enough college math credit to qualify for a conversation about baseball stats, but I digress...

Most people would argue, as you have, that Joe Carter was a far superior hitter, and that offensive superiority over Gordon outweighs Gordon's defensive superiority over Carter. Fair enough. I've seen both these guys play and, based on my memories, I'd have thought that too. However, our memories/eyes lie all the time. Here's a slash line comparison:

Gordon: .258/.339/.413/.752
Carter: .259/.306/.464/.770

Now defense. By ANY metric available Gordon is the far superior defensive player. Fangraphs Def rating difference is +27.4 for Gordon to -175.7 for Carter. Baseball Ref dWAR is +8.6 for Gordon to -15.7 for Carter.

So, to recap, OPS is essentially a pick-em, especially since Gordon has a decided edge in the most important offensive category (OBP). Defense is a landslide in Gordon's favor. That's why the difference in WAR is pretty dramatic.

So if I'm an AL team and can DH Carter then maybe I'll take him. But if he has to play a COF position, Gordon will help my team more in the long run. Bottom line is Joe Carter was not nearly as good as we remember.

Your education is only an issue if you call someone a moron. You haven’t so you are good. Plus you are bringing a solid argument.
You bring up some great points. The slash line being close and the defense being a landslide. And players NOT always being as good as our memory. However, I never really remember Gordon being consistently good. So in his case maybe he isn’t as bad as I remember.
Although at second look at the slash lines I would say they are just different. Gordon walked more but Carter had more power. You add in steals as an additional dimension and I think Carter offensively is just a different animal
I still lean towards Carter when I look at the totality of the seasons. I feel Alex had 4 solid offensive seasons 2011-2014 maybe 2015 whereas while Carter had easily 12 solid seasons.
To the larger point, If SS represents the best seasons of each dude. I think that Carters card would have waaay higher offensive numbers and at his best defensivley he was average. For that reason and because he is the only card in the original choice grouping that doesn’t have a SS.

Maverick31762

@ayman718 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SFennell3 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

Brett and Orel would be amazing.

5 others I'd like to see:
Don Mattingly
Hal Newhouser
Jake Arrieta
Pablo Sandoval
Pat Neshek

You want an SS Neshek??

Meshed feels almost standard. Like every MLB the show should have that annoying Nesbek card...lol

I certainly wouldn’t mind Mattingly. The Keith Hernandez card being so much better is annoying

SefarR_PSN

@hegone44 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant.

Okay, one last time.

WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player.

None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense.

Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant.

WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout.

Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team

To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon.
Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that.

You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats!

Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser..

Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed

You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians

WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either.

Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts

I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial.

The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)).

OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s).

Defensively they arent remotely comparable.

You're missing the point that it is extremely difficult to provide additional wins into WAR and dWAR as a left fielder, but Gordon did. Meanwhile, Carter actually played under replacement level and actually cost his team games with his defense...

Why do you think Keith Hernandez' career dWAR is 1.3? Because although he was a great fielder, it is very difficult to provide additional defensive wins as a 1B. The fact that Gordon was able to produce 8.6 defensive wins based on dWAR as a left fielder is actually very impressive and shows that he actually had a net-positive impact there (unlike Carter).

Lastly, Bill James (not Will) is not the creator of WAR but win shares. He criticises WAR sure but how about you go to him and present your analysis between Carter and Gordon based on RBIs, stolen bases and all star appearances... Wonder what he would say to that....

We just disagree about the use of WAR as a singular stat. I think that ANY singular stat RBI, homers, BA etc is not as good as a full statistical analysis. I am not using ONE stat. When triangulating the data which any statistician on the planet would say is a better method of analyzing data than looking at any one stat you get a better idea of the player. Here are some facts

Carter is better stats in the following:

Homeruns (career, single season, per AB),
RBI (career, single season, per AB),
Steals (career, single season, per AB),
hits (career, single season, per AB),
Triples (career, single season, per AB),
Runs (career, single season, per AB),
BA (career)
Slugging (career, single season) - number of .500 SLG season
OPS (career, single season) - number of .800 OPS seasons
OPS+ (career)
All-Star selections
Top 10 MVP selections

Gordon played a great LF and a horrible 3B

WAR is a not a perfect stat. Here are a few articles that touch on it
WAR article
lThis WAR article touches other aspects of it that might directly impact this comparison

Here is an example of how BAD a stat WAR can be and you can find TONS when you start to look. Take a look at 1994 Carter
G AB R. H HR. RBI. SB BA. OBP. SLG. OPS
1994 34 TOR AL 111 435 70 118 27 103 11. .271 .317 .524 .841

I think its fair to say that a season like this that got him a top 10 MVP finish and an all star selection is not something that any typical replacement player could have pulled off. Clearly baseball people realize it was a great season thus the All Star selection and MVP votes. Those are good numbers. But according to WAR this won't even get you an extra win as the WAR for this season was 0.7. This is in large part due to his -1.6 dWAR. Wow such a bad dWAR you would think he was making tons of errors. Nope only 2 errors. So I guess he was missing balls? Really? won't get into how that is measured in WAR but it is VERY subjective.

Realistically, I'm not even writing this to you, but the other forum members, because I know nothing can make you change your mind.

Here is how baseball reference calculates defensive WAR:

W-L% = ((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player))/((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player) + ((League Runs/Game / 2)- Player Defensive Runs)^(Runs/Game involving Player))
DWAA = (W-L% - .5) * Games Played
DWRSE = Player Defensive Runs / ((2 * (league Runs/Game)^.715) - (2 * (Runs per Game involving Player)^.715))
DWAR = DWAA + DWRSE

How much do you think this has to do with how many errors Carter committed?

How valuable do you think a player that never commits an error but covers an area the size of a basketball is to a team?

You've decided that WAR is somehow an arbitrary stat but how about we put this thing to a vote here? How many people do you think will vote for Carter?

WAR tells much more about a player than any of those base stats used together. Gordon’s career is better than Carter’s, and only a true moron would think otherwise.

Driver when you don't have a good argument the classic move of unintelligent people is to name call. I disagree with Sefar, but he is smart enough to have an intelligent argument without an insult. But when we last had a WAR debate I asked if you have EVER taken more than 6 credits in Math or statistics, if you have EVER taken a undergraduate or masters level statistics class. If you have have even 60 college credits. I also asked if you have ever had to use stats or develop statistical analysis in ANY professional manner. I can answer YES to all of those and to me that is not a high bar. So before you call someone a moron you should look in the mirror.

Hopefully I have enough college math credit to qualify for a conversation about baseball stats, but I digress...

Most people would argue, as you have, that Joe Carter was a far superior hitter, and that offensive superiority over Gordon outweighs Gordon's defensive superiority over Carter. Fair enough. I've seen both these guys play and, based on my memories, I'd have thought that too. However, our memories/eyes lie all the time. Here's a slash line comparison:

Gordon: .258/.339/.413/.752
Carter: .259/.306/.464/.770

Now defense. By ANY metric available Gordon is the far superior defensive player. Fangraphs Def rating difference is +27.4 for Gordon to -175.7 for Carter. Baseball Ref dWAR is +8.6 for Gordon to -15.7 for Carter.

So, to recap, OPS is essentially a pick-em, especially since Gordon has a decided edge in the most important offensive category (OBP). Defense is a landslide in Gordon's favor. That's why the difference in WAR is pretty dramatic.

So if I'm an AL team and can DH Carter then maybe I'll take him. But if he has to play a COF position, Gordon will help my team more in the long run. Bottom line is Joe Carter was not nearly as good as we remember.

I very much appreciate you reiterating this. It's nothing that wasn't already stated on the previous pages, but sometimes repetition is helpful. It's definitely interesting that Joe Carter specifically has this tendency of making people view him through - in one way or another - tinted glasses.

Maverick31762

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@hegone44 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant.

Okay, one last time.

WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player.

None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense.

Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant.

WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout.

Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team

To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon.
Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that.

You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats!

Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser..

Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed

You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians

WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either.

Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts

I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial.

The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)).

OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s).

Defensively they arent remotely comparable.

You're missing the point that it is extremely difficult to provide additional wins into WAR and dWAR as a left fielder, but Gordon did. Meanwhile, Carter actually played under replacement level and actually cost his team games with his defense...

Why do you think Keith Hernandez' career dWAR is 1.3? Because although he was a great fielder, it is very difficult to provide additional defensive wins as a 1B. The fact that Gordon was able to produce 8.6 defensive wins based on dWAR as a left fielder is actually very impressive and shows that he actually had a net-positive impact there (unlike Carter).

Lastly, Bill James (not Will) is not the creator of WAR but win shares. He criticises WAR sure but how about you go to him and present your analysis between Carter and Gordon based on RBIs, stolen bases and all star appearances... Wonder what he would say to that....

We just disagree about the use of WAR as a singular stat. I think that ANY singular stat RBI, homers, BA etc is not as good as a full statistical analysis. I am not using ONE stat. When triangulating the data which any statistician on the planet would say is a better method of analyzing data than looking at any one stat you get a better idea of the player. Here are some facts

Carter is better stats in the following:

Homeruns (career, single season, per AB),
RBI (career, single season, per AB),
Steals (career, single season, per AB),
hits (career, single season, per AB),
Triples (career, single season, per AB),
Runs (career, single season, per AB),
BA (career)
Slugging (career, single season) - number of .500 SLG season
OPS (career, single season) - number of .800 OPS seasons
OPS+ (career)
All-Star selections
Top 10 MVP selections

Gordon played a great LF and a horrible 3B

WAR is a not a perfect stat. Here are a few articles that touch on it
WAR article
lThis WAR article touches other aspects of it that might directly impact this comparison

Here is an example of how BAD a stat WAR can be and you can find TONS when you start to look. Take a look at 1994 Carter
G AB R. H HR. RBI. SB BA. OBP. SLG. OPS
1994 34 TOR AL 111 435 70 118 27 103 11. .271 .317 .524 .841

I think its fair to say that a season like this that got him a top 10 MVP finish and an all star selection is not something that any typical replacement player could have pulled off. Clearly baseball people realize it was a great season thus the All Star selection and MVP votes. Those are good numbers. But according to WAR this won't even get you an extra win as the WAR for this season was 0.7. This is in large part due to his -1.6 dWAR. Wow such a bad dWAR you would think he was making tons of errors. Nope only 2 errors. So I guess he was missing balls? Really? won't get into how that is measured in WAR but it is VERY subjective.

Realistically, I'm not even writing this to you, but the other forum members, because I know nothing can make you change your mind.

Here is how baseball reference calculates defensive WAR:

W-L% = ((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player))/((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player) + ((League Runs/Game / 2)- Player Defensive Runs)^(Runs/Game involving Player))
DWAA = (W-L% - .5) * Games Played
DWRSE = Player Defensive Runs / ((2 * (league Runs/Game)^.715) - (2 * (Runs per Game involving Player)^.715))
DWAR = DWAA + DWRSE

How much do you think this has to do with how many errors Carter committed?

How valuable do you think a player that never commits an error but covers an area the size of a basketball is to a team?

You've decided that WAR is somehow an arbitrary stat but how about we put this thing to a vote here? How many people do you think will vote for Carter?

WAR tells much more about a player than any of those base stats used together. Gordon’s career is better than Carter’s, and only a true moron would think otherwise.

Driver when you don't have a good argument the classic move of unintelligent people is to name call. I disagree with Sefar, but he is smart enough to have an intelligent argument without an insult. But when we last had a WAR debate I asked if you have EVER taken more than 6 credits in Math or statistics, if you have EVER taken a undergraduate or masters level statistics class. If you have have even 60 college credits. I also asked if you have ever had to use stats or develop statistical analysis in ANY professional manner. I can answer YES to all of those and to me that is not a high bar. So before you call someone a moron you should look in the mirror.

Hopefully I have enough college math credit to qualify for a conversation about baseball stats, but I digress...

Most people would argue, as you have, that Joe Carter was a far superior hitter, and that offensive superiority over Gordon outweighs Gordon's defensive superiority over Carter. Fair enough. I've seen both these guys play and, based on my memories, I'd have thought that too. However, our memories/eyes lie all the time. Here's a slash line comparison:

Gordon: .258/.339/.413/.752
Carter: .259/.306/.464/.770

Now defense. By ANY metric available Gordon is the far superior defensive player. Fangraphs Def rating difference is +27.4 for Gordon to -175.7 for Carter. Baseball Ref dWAR is +8.6 for Gordon to -15.7 for Carter.

So, to recap, OPS is essentially a pick-em, especially since Gordon has a decided edge in the most important offensive category (OBP). Defense is a landslide in Gordon's favor. That's why the difference in WAR is pretty dramatic.

So if I'm an AL team and can DH Carter then maybe I'll take him. But if he has to play a COF position, Gordon will help my team more in the long run. Bottom line is Joe Carter was not nearly as good as we remember.

I very much appreciate you reiterating this. It's nothing that wasn't already stated on the previous pages, but sometimes repetition is helpful. It's definitely interesting that Joe Carter specifically has this tendency of making people view him through - in one way or another - tinted glasses.

No it was quite different in that they brought in the overall slash line and not JUST WAR.

I think Joe Carter is looked at positively because he was a very good player. I think the change in narrative about him is about the cult of WAR that has become popular especially amongst non-athletes since his retirement.

His poor WAR is silly on the face of it. The example I gave of his 1994 WAR illustrates my point.

Now you can have your new last word

Maverick31762

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@hegone44 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant.

Okay, one last time.

WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player.

None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense.

Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant.

WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout.

Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team

To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon.
Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that.

You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats!

Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser..

Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed

You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians

WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either.

Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts

I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial.

The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)).

OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s).

Defensively they arent remotely comparable.

You're missing the point that it is extremely difficult to provide additional wins into WAR and dWAR as a left fielder, but Gordon did. Meanwhile, Carter actually played under replacement level and actually cost his team games with his defense...

Why do you think Keith Hernandez' career dWAR is 1.3? Because although he was a great fielder, it is very difficult to provide additional defensive wins as a 1B. The fact that Gordon was able to produce 8.6 defensive wins based on dWAR as a left fielder is actually very impressive and shows that he actually had a net-positive impact there (unlike Carter).

Lastly, Bill James (not Will) is not the creator of WAR but win shares. He criticises WAR sure but how about you go to him and present your analysis between Carter and Gordon based on RBIs, stolen bases and all star appearances... Wonder what he would say to that....

We just disagree about the use of WAR as a singular stat. I think that ANY singular stat RBI, homers, BA etc is not as good as a full statistical analysis. I am not using ONE stat. When triangulating the data which any statistician on the planet would say is a better method of analyzing data than looking at any one stat you get a better idea of the player. Here are some facts

Carter is better stats in the following:

Homeruns (career, single season, per AB),
RBI (career, single season, per AB),
Steals (career, single season, per AB),
hits (career, single season, per AB),
Triples (career, single season, per AB),
Runs (career, single season, per AB),
BA (career)
Slugging (career, single season) - number of .500 SLG season
OPS (career, single season) - number of .800 OPS seasons
OPS+ (career)
All-Star selections
Top 10 MVP selections

Gordon played a great LF and a horrible 3B

WAR is a not a perfect stat. Here are a few articles that touch on it
WAR article
lThis WAR article touches other aspects of it that might directly impact this comparison

Here is an example of how BAD a stat WAR can be and you can find TONS when you start to look. Take a look at 1994 Carter
G AB R. H HR. RBI. SB BA. OBP. SLG. OPS
1994 34 TOR AL 111 435 70 118 27 103 11. .271 .317 .524 .841

I think its fair to say that a season like this that got him a top 10 MVP finish and an all star selection is not something that any typical replacement player could have pulled off. Clearly baseball people realize it was a great season thus the All Star selection and MVP votes. Those are good numbers. But according to WAR this won't even get you an extra win as the WAR for this season was 0.7. This is in large part due to his -1.6 dWAR. Wow such a bad dWAR you would think he was making tons of errors. Nope only 2 errors. So I guess he was missing balls? Really? won't get into how that is measured in WAR but it is VERY subjective.

Realistically, I'm not even writing this to you, but the other forum members, because I know nothing can make you change your mind.

Here is how baseball reference calculates defensive WAR:

W-L% = ((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player))/((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player) + ((League Runs/Game / 2)- Player Defensive Runs)^(Runs/Game involving Player))
DWAA = (W-L% - .5) * Games Played
DWRSE = Player Defensive Runs / ((2 * (league Runs/Game)^.715) - (2 * (Runs per Game involving Player)^.715))
DWAR = DWAA + DWRSE

How much do you think this has to do with how many errors Carter committed?

How valuable do you think a player that never commits an error but covers an area the size of a basketball is to a team?

You've decided that WAR is somehow an arbitrary stat but how about we put this thing to a vote here? How many people do you think will vote for Carter?

WAR tells much more about a player than any of those base stats used together. Gordon’s career is better than Carter’s, and only a true moron would think otherwise.

Driver when you don't have a good argument the classic move of unintelligent people is to name call. I disagree with Sefar, but he is smart enough to have an intelligent argument without an insult. But when we last had a WAR debate I asked if you have EVER taken more than 6 credits in Math or statistics, if you have EVER taken a undergraduate or masters level statistics class. If you have have even 60 college credits. I also asked if you have ever had to use stats or develop statistical analysis in ANY professional manner. I can answer YES to all of those and to me that is not a high bar. So before you call someone a moron you should look in the mirror.

Hopefully I have enough college math credit to qualify for a conversation about baseball stats, but I digress...

Most people would argue, as you have, that Joe Carter was a far superior hitter, and that offensive superiority over Gordon outweighs Gordon's defensive superiority over Carter. Fair enough. I've seen both these guys play and, based on my memories, I'd have thought that too. However, our memories/eyes lie all the time. Here's a slash line comparison:

Gordon: .258/.339/.413/.752
Carter: .259/.306/.464/.770

Now defense. By ANY metric available Gordon is the far superior defensive player. Fangraphs Def rating difference is +27.4 for Gordon to -175.7 for Carter. Baseball Ref dWAR is +8.6 for Gordon to -15.7 for Carter.

So, to recap, OPS is essentially a pick-em, especially since Gordon has a decided edge in the most important offensive category (OBP). Defense is a landslide in Gordon's favor. That's why the difference in WAR is pretty dramatic.

So if I'm an AL team and can DH Carter then maybe I'll take him. But if he has to play a COF position, Gordon will help my team more in the long run. Bottom line is Joe Carter was not nearly as good as we remember.

I very much appreciate you reiterating this. It's nothing that wasn't already stated on the previous pages, but sometimes repetition is helpful. It's definitely interesting that Joe Carter specifically has this tendency of making people view him through - in one way or another - tinted glasses.

No it was quite different in that they brought in the overall slash line and not JUST WAR.

I think Joe Carter is looked at positively because he was a very good player. I think the change in narrative about him is about the cult of WAR that has become popular especially amongst non-athletes since his retirement.

His poor WAR is silly on the face of it. The example I gave of his 1994 WAR illustrates my point.

Now you can have your new last word

SefarR_PSN

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@hegone44 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@MiKySaK said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant.

Okay, one last time.

WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player.

None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense.

Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant.

WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout.

Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team

To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon.
Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that.

You are incredible. I bet you are one of those guys who thinks Earth is flat. Another interesting thread destroyed by you and your flawed “logic”. Congrats!

Back to the topic. Pretty much the only player I am waiting for is SS Gossage. I don’t think anyone else will make my team. Maybe starting pitchers Hersheiser, Vida, Newhouser..

Ok troll if you are going to talk [censored] please explain my flawed logic. Nobody as insulting anyone. Not sure why you are bringing that douche energy. Here are the points to my argument please point to the one that is flawed

You should not use a single stat to determine players ability. You should use multiple stats. This is a premise used by real life statisticians

WAR is a very flawed stat. The inventor of WAR says as much. There are many poor assumptions. I am not alone in this MLB doesn’t use the stat. You can’t find an incentive based contract that uses it either.

Carter is better than Gordon in every offensive stat but WAR. By other less objective measures it still informative measures like all Star appearances and MVP finishes he is superior. These are facts

I concede that Gordon is a better fielder. However, I am saying that given LF is the least important defensive position that it doesn’t rally add to the case. Especially because most corner OF are there primarily because their offense. I don’t see how the statement is even controversial.

The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)).

OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s).

Defensively they arent remotely comparable.

You're missing the point that it is extremely difficult to provide additional wins into WAR and dWAR as a left fielder, but Gordon did. Meanwhile, Carter actually played under replacement level and actually cost his team games with his defense...

Why do you think Keith Hernandez' career dWAR is 1.3? Because although he was a great fielder, it is very difficult to provide additional defensive wins as a 1B. The fact that Gordon was able to produce 8.6 defensive wins based on dWAR as a left fielder is actually very impressive and shows that he actually had a net-positive impact there (unlike Carter).

Lastly, Bill James (not Will) is not the creator of WAR but win shares. He criticises WAR sure but how about you go to him and present your analysis between Carter and Gordon based on RBIs, stolen bases and all star appearances... Wonder what he would say to that....

We just disagree about the use of WAR as a singular stat. I think that ANY singular stat RBI, homers, BA etc is not as good as a full statistical analysis. I am not using ONE stat. When triangulating the data which any statistician on the planet would say is a better method of analyzing data than looking at any one stat you get a better idea of the player. Here are some facts

Carter is better stats in the following:

Homeruns (career, single season, per AB),
RBI (career, single season, per AB),
Steals (career, single season, per AB),
hits (career, single season, per AB),
Triples (career, single season, per AB),
Runs (career, single season, per AB),
BA (career)
Slugging (career, single season) - number of .500 SLG season
OPS (career, single season) - number of .800 OPS seasons
OPS+ (career)
All-Star selections
Top 10 MVP selections

Gordon played a great LF and a horrible 3B

WAR is a not a perfect stat. Here are a few articles that touch on it
WAR article
lThis WAR article touches other aspects of it that might directly impact this comparison

Here is an example of how BAD a stat WAR can be and you can find TONS when you start to look. Take a look at 1994 Carter
G AB R. H HR. RBI. SB BA. OBP. SLG. OPS
1994 34 TOR AL 111 435 70 118 27 103 11. .271 .317 .524 .841

I think its fair to say that a season like this that got him a top 10 MVP finish and an all star selection is not something that any typical replacement player could have pulled off. Clearly baseball people realize it was a great season thus the All Star selection and MVP votes. Those are good numbers. But according to WAR this won't even get you an extra win as the WAR for this season was 0.7. This is in large part due to his -1.6 dWAR. Wow such a bad dWAR you would think he was making tons of errors. Nope only 2 errors. So I guess he was missing balls? Really? won't get into how that is measured in WAR but it is VERY subjective.

Realistically, I'm not even writing this to you, but the other forum members, because I know nothing can make you change your mind.

Here is how baseball reference calculates defensive WAR:

W-L% = ((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player))/((League Runs/Game / 2)^(Runs/Game involving Player) + ((League Runs/Game / 2)- Player Defensive Runs)^(Runs/Game involving Player))
DWAA = (W-L% - .5) * Games Played
DWRSE = Player Defensive Runs / ((2 * (league Runs/Game)^.715) - (2 * (Runs per Game involving Player)^.715))
DWAR = DWAA + DWRSE

How much do you think this has to do with how many errors Carter committed?

How valuable do you think a player that never commits an error but covers an area the size of a basketball is to a team?

You've decided that WAR is somehow an arbitrary stat but how about we put this thing to a vote here? How many people do you think will vote for Carter?

WAR tells much more about a player than any of those base stats used together. Gordon’s career is better than Carter’s, and only a true moron would think otherwise.

Driver when you don't have a good argument the classic move of unintelligent people is to name call. I disagree with Sefar, but he is smart enough to have an intelligent argument without an insult. But when we last had a WAR debate I asked if you have EVER taken more than 6 credits in Math or statistics, if you have EVER taken a undergraduate or masters level statistics class. If you have have even 60 college credits. I also asked if you have ever had to use stats or develop statistical analysis in ANY professional manner. I can answer YES to all of those and to me that is not a high bar. So before you call someone a moron you should look in the mirror.

Hopefully I have enough college math credit to qualify for a conversation about baseball stats, but I digress...

Most people would argue, as you have, that Joe Carter was a far superior hitter, and that offensive superiority over Gordon outweighs Gordon's defensive superiority over Carter. Fair enough. I've seen both these guys play and, based on my memories, I'd have thought that too. However, our memories/eyes lie all the time. Here's a slash line comparison:

Gordon: .258/.339/.413/.752
Carter: .259/.306/.464/.770

Now defense. By ANY metric available Gordon is the far superior defensive player. Fangraphs Def rating difference is +27.4 for Gordon to -175.7 for Carter. Baseball Ref dWAR is +8.6 for Gordon to -15.7 for Carter.

So, to recap, OPS is essentially a pick-em, especially since Gordon has a decided edge in the most important offensive category (OBP). Defense is a landslide in Gordon's favor. That's why the difference in WAR is pretty dramatic.

So if I'm an AL team and can DH Carter then maybe I'll take him. But if he has to play a COF position, Gordon will help my team more in the long run. Bottom line is Joe Carter was not nearly as good as we remember.

I very much appreciate you reiterating this. It's nothing that wasn't already stated on the previous pages, but sometimes repetition is helpful. It's definitely interesting that Joe Carter specifically has this tendency of making people view him through - in one way or another - tinted glasses.

No it was quite different in that they brought in the overall slash line and not JUST WAR.

I think Joe Carter is looked at positively because he was a very good player. I think the change in narrative about him is about the cult of WAR that has become popular especially amongst non-athletes since his retirement.

His poor WAR is silly on the face of it. The example I gave of his 1994 WAR illustrates my point.

Now you can have your new last word

Thank you for graciously offering me the last word.

This is what I stated two days ago:

"The point is WAR, even if it is a singular stat, is better than the stats you're referring to (I.e. RBIs (meaningless), SBs (almost as meaningless), All star appearances (utterly meaningless)).

OPS-wise Carter and Gordon are easily comparable with neither having elite-production seasons and both ranging seasonally in the 700s or low 800s).

Defensively they aren't remotely comparable.."

OPS (and the minuscule difference between Gordon's and Carter's career OPS) has been referred to several times in this thread.

You ignored that and instead referred to RBI's, stolen bases and all star appearances as some sort of a difference maker. Problem is, RBI's and all star appearances are useless when it comes to comparing players. Stolen bases have been clearly shown to be much less valuable than previously thought, this is why the overall number of stolen bases has steadily declined. Furthermore, Carter was never some standout speed demon, in his best year he had 31 stolen bases and was caught stealing 1/6 times (Rickey Henderson, who played at the same time, recorded more SB's in a year 23 times).

Considering the similarity of the OPS numbers between the two players, you essentially value the extra 10 stolen bases per year, regardless of how atrocious that player is as a fielder, over elite defense in LF.

This is another losing argument you simply were not able to let go off because "you are what you are".

Maverick31762

In addition to Joe Carter the obvious SS is Warren Spahn. Dude was best lefty of his era. His elite wins total, ERA and Innings make him a stud from that era. Oh and he has a high WAR if you need just one stat.

I do worry that he won’t translate well in game. Not a hard thrower. He threw a lot of breaking stuff. He might get the Mathewson treatment

hegone44_PSN

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

In addition to Joe Carter the obvious SS is Warren Spahn. Dude was best lefty of his era. His elite wins total, ERA and Innings make him a stud from that era. Oh and he has a high WAR if you need just one stat.

I do worry that he won’t translate well in game. Not a hard thrower. He threw a lot of breaking stuff. He might get the Mathewson treatment

Could make a fairly compelling argument for him being the greatest LHP of all time, and he's only got that 89 that's been out all year. I'd be SHOCKED if they don't put in a SS this month sometime.

Maverick31762

@hegone44 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:

In addition to Joe Carter the obvious SS is Warren Spahn. Dude was best lefty of his era. His elite wins total, ERA and Innings make him a stud from that era. Oh and he has a high WAR if you need just one stat.

I do worry that he won’t translate well in game. Not a hard thrower. He threw a lot of breaking stuff. He might get the Mathewson treatment

Could make a fairly compelling argument for him being the greatest LHP of all time, and he's only got that 89 that's been out all year. I'd be SHOCKED if they don't put in a SS this month sometime.m

No, no no! He could only be considered the greatest lefty EVER if you looked at Wins, innings, complete games and ERA. Randy Johnson and Lefty Grove have better WAR and that is all that matters here.

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Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing