Judge is the GOAT?
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Amazing player, not much bad to say about him but he is going to have to have more than 1 fully healthy season of being a beast to even sniff GOAT status.
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Judge is definitely the GOTS
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@dbub_PSN said in Judge is the GOAT?:
Judge is definitely the GOTS
(Greatest Of This Season)I’m curious to see how his contract plays out next. He’ll be 31 next year and already turned down 200+ million and while production this year is certainly elite and major, contracts are written for future production not past.
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I love Judge and I hope he wins the triple crown. His HR chase has been very good for baseball. He and Pujols have managed to take a little focus off the Tatis story, so that's very good. But even with the insane season he's having, I still would lean toward Ohtani for MVP. Obviously he's having a great season on both sides of the ball. And the ripple effect of only having to use one roster spot for an ace and a DH is nuts. That means you can have an extra starter to stretch out your rotation, or carry a 3rd catcher, or have a Terence Gore type player on the bench whose only job is to steal bags. That kind of roster flexibility is something no one else in the league can provide.
And to put it further into perspective, Ohtani is having a very, very comparable offensive year to Austin Riley, and he also has very comparable pitching numbers to Alek Manoah (though Manoah does have 35 more IP, which is a big deal). So he really does have the value of two all-star players. Judge is having an absolutely nutso year and will almost certainly win the MVP, but I don't think Ohtani should be forgotten (even if his team could end up in 4th place).
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@SchnauzerFace_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
I love Judge and I hope he wins the triple crown. His HR chase has been very good for baseball. He and Pujols have managed to take a little focus off the Tatis story, so that's very good. But even with the insane season he's having, I still would lean toward Ohtani for MVP. Obviously he's having a great season on both sides of the ball. And the ripple effect of only having to use one roster spot for an ace and a DH is nuts. That means you can have an extra starter to stretch out your rotation, or carry a 3rd catcher, or have a Terence Gore type player on the bench whose only job is to steal bags. That kind of roster flexibility is something no one else in the league can provide.
And to put it further into perspective, Ohtani is having a very, very comparable offensive year to Austin Riley, and he also has very comparable pitching numbers to Alek Manoah (though Manoah does have 35 more IP, which is a big deal). So he really does have the value of two all-star players. Judge is having an absolutely nutso year and will almost certainly win the MVP, but I don't think Ohtani should be forgotten (even if his team could end up in 4th place).
If Ohtani wins MVP with the year Judge is having, they should just make a separate award for Shohei. Ohtani is a phenomenal talent and we will never see anything like him again, but Judge is probably going to break the non-juiced single season homerun record. Judge is having one of the best non Bonds or Ruth offensive seasons ever. It's just really not fair to anyone if they just give the MVP to Ohtani every year. Hall of fame voters don't give 2 spits about who wins the Hank Aaron award. Ohtani might literally be taking some guys out of the hall just for existing. (Not saying Judge is a hall of famer per se, just that if Ohtani does this for 10 years and wins 9 or 10 MVP awards, he's weakening other players HOF' cases)
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@the_dragon1912 said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@SchnauzerFace_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
I love Judge and I hope he wins the triple crown. His HR chase has been very good for baseball. He and Pujols have managed to take a little focus off the Tatis story, so that's very good. But even with the insane season he's having, I still would lean toward Ohtani for MVP. Obviously he's having a great season on both sides of the ball. And the ripple effect of only having to use one roster spot for an ace and a DH is nuts. That means you can have an extra starter to stretch out your rotation, or carry a 3rd catcher, or have a Terence Gore type player on the bench whose only job is to steal bags. That kind of roster flexibility is something no one else in the league can provide.
And to put it further into perspective, Ohtani is having a very, very comparable offensive year to Austin Riley, and he also has very comparable pitching numbers to Alek Manoah (though Manoah does have 35 more IP, which is a big deal). So he really does have the value of two all-star players. Judge is having an absolutely nutso year and will almost certainly win the MVP, but I don't think Ohtani should be forgotten (even if his team could end up in 4th place).
If Ohtani wins MVP with the year Judge is having, they should just make a separate award for Shohei. Ohtani is a phenomenal talent and we will never see anything like him again, but Judge is probably going to break the non-juiced single season homerun record. Judge is having one of the best non Bonds or Ruth offensive seasons ever. It's just really not fair to anyone if they just give the MVP to Ohtani every year. Hall of fame voters don't give 2 spits about who wins the Hank Aaron award. Ohtani might literally be taking some guys out of the hall just for existing. (Not saying Judge is a hall of famer per se, just that if Ohtani does this for 10 years and wins 9 or 10 MVP awards, he's weakening other players HOF' cases)
Eh, I wouldn't be in favor of that kind of rule. If you're the MVP then you're the MVP. It's not the Most-ish Valuable Player. If Ohtani performs at this level for 10 years then he deserves to win 10 MVPs. I don't think we should water down or arbitrarily spread around what is perhaps the most prestigious MLB award just so players can have a stronger HoF resume.
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@tmichae10_PSN said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@dbub_PSN said in Judge is the GOAT?:
Judge is definitely the GOTS
(Greatest Of This Season)I’m curious to see how his contract plays out next. He’ll be 31 next year and already turned down 200+ million and while production this year is certainly elite and major, contracts are written for future production not past.
Mega contracts are more often payment for past production with the hope that 1/2 the life of the contract proves worth the cost.
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@the_dragon1912 said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@SchnauzerFace_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
I love Judge and I hope he wins the triple crown. His HR chase has been very good for baseball. He and Pujols have managed to take a little focus off the Tatis story, so that's very good. But even with the insane season he's having, I still would lean toward Ohtani for MVP. Obviously he's having a great season on both sides of the ball. And the ripple effect of only having to use one roster spot for an ace and a DH is nuts. That means you can have an extra starter to stretch out your rotation, or carry a 3rd catcher, or have a Terence Gore type player on the bench whose only job is to steal bags. That kind of roster flexibility is something no one else in the league can provide.
And to put it further into perspective, Ohtani is having a very, very comparable offensive year to Austin Riley, and he also has very comparable pitching numbers to Alek Manoah (though Manoah does have 35 more IP, which is a big deal). So he really does have the value of two all-star players. Judge is having an absolutely nutso year and will almost certainly win the MVP, but I don't think Ohtani should be forgotten (even if his team could end up in 4th place).
If Ohtani wins MVP with the year Judge is having, they should just make a separate award for Shohei. Ohtani is a phenomenal talent and we will never see anything like him again, but Judge is probably going to break the non-juiced single season homerun record. Judge is having one of the best non Bonds or Ruth offensive seasons ever. It's just really not fair to anyone if they just give the MVP to Ohtani every year. Hall of fame voters don't give 2 spits about who wins the Hank Aaron award. Ohtani might literally be taking some guys out of the hall just for existing. (Not saying Judge is a hall of famer per se, just that if Ohtani does this for 10 years and wins 9 or 10 MVP awards, he's weakening other players HOF' cases)
Not sure about non-juiced. Drugging is always three steps ahead of testing. Then the balls are certainly juiced. And finally he's playing in a little league field.
Still a great player and a great season.
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@SchnauzerFace_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@the_dragon1912 said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@SchnauzerFace_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
I love Judge and I hope he wins the triple crown. His HR chase has been very good for baseball. He and Pujols have managed to take a little focus off the Tatis story, so that's very good. But even with the insane season he's having, I still would lean toward Ohtani for MVP. Obviously he's having a great season on both sides of the ball. And the ripple effect of only having to use one roster spot for an ace and a DH is nuts. That means you can have an extra starter to stretch out your rotation, or carry a 3rd catcher, or have a Terence Gore type player on the bench whose only job is to steal bags. That kind of roster flexibility is something no one else in the league can provide.
And to put it further into perspective, Ohtani is having a very, very comparable offensive year to Austin Riley, and he also has very comparable pitching numbers to Alek Manoah (though Manoah does have 35 more IP, which is a big deal). So he really does have the value of two all-star players. Judge is having an absolutely nutso year and will almost certainly win the MVP, but I don't think Ohtani should be forgotten (even if his team could end up in 4th place).
If Ohtani wins MVP with the year Judge is having, they should just make a separate award for Shohei. Ohtani is a phenomenal talent and we will never see anything like him again, but Judge is probably going to break the non-juiced single season homerun record. Judge is having one of the best non Bonds or Ruth offensive seasons ever. It's just really not fair to anyone if they just give the MVP to Ohtani every year. Hall of fame voters don't give 2 spits about who wins the Hank Aaron award. Ohtani might literally be taking some guys out of the hall just for existing. (Not saying Judge is a hall of famer per se, just that if Ohtani does this for 10 years and wins 9 or 10 MVP awards, he's weakening other players HOF' cases)
Eh, I wouldn't be in favor of that kind of rule. If you're the MVP then you're the MVP. It's not the Most-ish Valuable Player. If Ohtani performs at this level for 10 years then he deserves to win 10 MVPs. I don't think we should water down or arbitrarily spread around what is perhaps the most prestigious MLB award just so players can have a stronger HoF resume.
I don't think Ohtani will perform to this exact level for 10 years, but this conversation will still happen if Ohtani has a 4 ERA and 25 homers in a season. Just because he does both doesn't mean he should automatically be in MVP conversation. That's just my 2¢. I don't think it should take a record breaking season to even be in conversation for MVP
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@the_dragon1912 said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@SchnauzerFace_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@the_dragon1912 said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@SchnauzerFace_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
I love Judge and I hope he wins the triple crown. His HR chase has been very good for baseball. He and Pujols have managed to take a little focus off the Tatis story, so that's very good. But even with the insane season he's having, I still would lean toward Ohtani for MVP. Obviously he's having a great season on both sides of the ball. And the ripple effect of only having to use one roster spot for an ace and a DH is nuts. That means you can have an extra starter to stretch out your rotation, or carry a 3rd catcher, or have a Terence Gore type player on the bench whose only job is to steal bags. That kind of roster flexibility is something no one else in the league can provide.
And to put it further into perspective, Ohtani is having a very, very comparable offensive year to Austin Riley, and he also has very comparable pitching numbers to Alek Manoah (though Manoah does have 35 more IP, which is a big deal). So he really does have the value of two all-star players. Judge is having an absolutely nutso year and will almost certainly win the MVP, but I don't think Ohtani should be forgotten (even if his team could end up in 4th place).
If Ohtani wins MVP with the year Judge is having, they should just make a separate award for Shohei. Ohtani is a phenomenal talent and we will never see anything like him again, but Judge is probably going to break the non-juiced single season homerun record. Judge is having one of the best non Bonds or Ruth offensive seasons ever. It's just really not fair to anyone if they just give the MVP to Ohtani every year. Hall of fame voters don't give 2 spits about who wins the Hank Aaron award. Ohtani might literally be taking some guys out of the hall just for existing. (Not saying Judge is a hall of famer per se, just that if Ohtani does this for 10 years and wins 9 or 10 MVP awards, he's weakening other players HOF' cases)
Eh, I wouldn't be in favor of that kind of rule. If you're the MVP then you're the MVP. It's not the Most-ish Valuable Player. If Ohtani performs at this level for 10 years then he deserves to win 10 MVPs. I don't think we should water down or arbitrarily spread around what is perhaps the most prestigious MLB award just so players can have a stronger HoF resume.
I don't think Ohtani will perform to this exact level for 10 years, but this conversation will still happen if Ohtani has a 4 ERA and 25 homers in a season. Just because he does both doesn't mean he should automatically be in MVP conversation. That's just my 2¢. I don't think it should take a record breaking season to even be in conversation for MVP
If he had a 4 ERA and 25 HRs then I don't think he's the MVP vs. someone like Judge. But this year he's got a 2.43 ERA and a 1.04 WHIP with the best K/9 among all AL starters. He's also just a few points shy of a .900 OPS with 34 HRs (and even 11 stolen bags!)
It's kind of unfortunate for all other AL players right now, but he's just that good and just that valuable (at least imo). It's kinda like all the NL 3B who have played for the last 10 years... they're up against one of the all-time greatest defensive 3B. So anyone who wants a GG on their shelf has to be better than arguably the best of all time. That's a bummer and unfortunate luck of the draw, but it's just how it is. I feel like the same thought process needs to go into the AL MVP -- if you want to win the MVP, you need to be better/more valuable than anyone else in the league. And as good as Judge is, I feel like an ace starter + a .900 OPS DH in one is better and more valuable. But, again, that's just my opinion, which is what makes this an interesting debate.
I still think Judge will probably win, and I don't think that would be an outrage or anything. He's having one of the best offensive seasons of the last 2 decades, so I can't fault any voters who put Judge 1 and Ohtani 2.
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Judge is slightly ahead of Ohtani in war, so I think Judge should get it. If Ohtani were ahead, I would think he should get it (even if Judge had 70 homers…or 85 homers)
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@LIONED-33_XBL said in Judge is the GOAT?:
GOAT? No. Great Player? Yes
I'd put it in the category of GOAS (Greatest of all seasons). Right up there anyway.
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I love how everyone says he plays in a little league stadium , like he is hitting wall scrapers.The guy hits monster shots that would be hr’s anywhere and also plays half his games on the road.
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@Possum80_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
Judge is slightly ahead of Ohtani in war, so I think Judge should get it. If Ohtani were ahead, I would think he should get it (even if Judge had 70 homers…or 85 homers)
I'm not a huge fan of WAR, particularly not if the idea is to use it as the sole determining factor for the MVP. If I'm reading this right:
https://www.espn.com/mlb/war/leaders
it looks like Ohtani has been penalized -1.4 WAR for defense? As far as I can tell, Ohtani has not played any position other than P and DH. He's got a spotless 1.000 fielding percentage from the mound (in 4 attempts lol). So he loses -1.4 points just for being DH? That feels arbitrary. And if you take that -1.4 deduction away, he actually has a better WAR than Judge (10.2 vs. 9.7).
You could say that Ohtani being a DH should count against him, but that site says Judge has a -0.1 defensive WAR. So it's not like he's in the MVP talks for his glove, so it feels unfair to penalize Ohtani -1.4 WAR for not playing defense when Judge is playing defense but apparently not all that well.
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@NCStateHokie_PSN said in Judge is the GOAT?:
I guess people just enjoying saying or typing the word GOAT. It gets thrown around WAY too often. Judge is having a heck of a season but the dude is 30 and only in his 7th season. He's not even in the discussion yet.
Once he breaks that record, you bet your a55 he will be.
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@SchnauzerFace_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@Possum80_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
Judge is slightly ahead of Ohtani in war, so I think Judge should get it. If Ohtani were ahead, I would think he should get it (even if Judge had 70 homers…or 85 homers)
I'm not a huge fan of WAR, particularly not if the idea is to use it as the sole determining factor for the MVP. If I'm reading this right:
https://www.espn.com/mlb/war/leaders
it looks like Ohtani has been penalized -1.4 WAR for defense? As far as I can tell, Ohtani has not played any position other than P and DH. He's got a spotless 1.000 fielding percentage from the mound (in 4 attempts lol). So he loses -1.4 points just for being DH? That feels arbitrary. And if you take that -1.4 deduction away, he actually has a better WAR than Judge (10.2 vs. 9.7).
You could say that Ohtani being a DH should count against him, but that site says Judge has a -0.1 defensive WAR. So it's not like he's in the MVP talks for his glove, so it feels unfair to penalize Ohtani -1.4 WAR for not playing defense when Judge is playing defense but apparently not all that well.
Its not without flaws but I still think its probably the best way to generally show the value of a player.
The issue is that its not just so simple as adding OFF+DEF because of the positional adjustments that are used in both calculations. The ESPN chart shows not a single player has a total WAR that equals their OFF+DEF war. It also doesn't help that the calculations vary a bit (fangraphs have a bigger edge for Judge https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/war?season=&wartype=&lg=&team=)
Ohtani being a DH does count against his offensive WAR numbers, but its only a few tenths of a point at most. Its not as extreme as the defense-only WAR numbers indicate.
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@Khain24_PSN said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@SchnauzerFace_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@Possum80_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
Judge is slightly ahead of Ohtani in war, so I think Judge should get it. If Ohtani were ahead, I would think he should get it (even if Judge had 70 homers…or 85 homers)
I'm not a huge fan of WAR, particularly not if the idea is to use it as the sole determining factor for the MVP. If I'm reading this right:
https://www.espn.com/mlb/war/leaders
it looks like Ohtani has been penalized -1.4 WAR for defense? As far as I can tell, Ohtani has not played any position other than P and DH. He's got a spotless 1.000 fielding percentage from the mound (in 4 attempts lol). So he loses -1.4 points just for being DH? That feels arbitrary. And if you take that -1.4 deduction away, he actually has a better WAR than Judge (10.2 vs. 9.7).
You could say that Ohtani being a DH should count against him, but that site says Judge has a -0.1 defensive WAR. So it's not like he's in the MVP talks for his glove, so it feels unfair to penalize Ohtani -1.4 WAR for not playing defense when Judge is playing defense but apparently not all that well.
Its not without flaws but I still think its probably the best way to generally show the value of a player.
The issue is that its not just so simple as adding OFF+DEF because of the positional adjustments that are used in both calculations. The ESPN chart shows not a single player has a total WAR that equals their OFF+DEF war. It also doesn't help that the calculations vary a bit (fangraphs have a bigger edge for Judge https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/war?season=&wartype=&lg=&team=)
Ohtani being a DH does count against his offensive WAR numbers, but its only a few tenths of a point at most. Its not as extreme as the defense-only WAR numbers indicate.
Another good way is to watch. Ohtani is clearly better than Judge.
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Even as a Red Sox fan I have to say Judge deserves the MVP hands-down.
I mean if Judge's season isn't good enough to beat out Shohei, then what would it take?
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@DeleteyourTTVBTW_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@Khain24_PSN said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@SchnauzerFace_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@Possum80_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
Judge is slightly ahead of Ohtani in war, so I think Judge should get it. If Ohtani were ahead, I would think he should get it (even if Judge had 70 homers…or 85 homers)
I'm not a huge fan of WAR, particularly not if the idea is to use it as the sole determining factor for the MVP. If I'm reading this right:
https://www.espn.com/mlb/war/leaders
it looks like Ohtani has been penalized -1.4 WAR for defense? As far as I can tell, Ohtani has not played any position other than P and DH. He's got a spotless 1.000 fielding percentage from the mound (in 4 attempts lol). So he loses -1.4 points just for being DH? That feels arbitrary. And if you take that -1.4 deduction away, he actually has a better WAR than Judge (10.2 vs. 9.7).
You could say that Ohtani being a DH should count against him, but that site says Judge has a -0.1 defensive WAR. So it's not like he's in the MVP talks for his glove, so it feels unfair to penalize Ohtani -1.4 WAR for not playing defense when Judge is playing defense but apparently not all that well.
Its not without flaws but I still think its probably the best way to generally show the value of a player.
The issue is that its not just so simple as adding OFF+DEF because of the positional adjustments that are used in both calculations. The ESPN chart shows not a single player has a total WAR that equals their OFF+DEF war. It also doesn't help that the calculations vary a bit (fangraphs have a bigger edge for Judge https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/war?season=&wartype=&lg=&team=)
Ohtani being a DH does count against his offensive WAR numbers, but its only a few tenths of a point at most. Its not as extreme as the defense-only WAR numbers indicate.
Another good way is to watch. Ohtani is clearly better than Judge.
Better at what? Pitching?
Ohtani is extremely talented, he’s having a very good year. Even with that, Judge should not only win MVP, it should be unanimous.
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@Mike__Honcho_361 said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@DeleteyourTTVBTW_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@Khain24_PSN said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@SchnauzerFace_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@Possum80_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
Judge is slightly ahead of Ohtani in war, so I think Judge should get it. If Ohtani were ahead, I would think he should get it (even if Judge had 70 homers…or 85 homers)
I'm not a huge fan of WAR, particularly not if the idea is to use it as the sole determining factor for the MVP. If I'm reading this right:
https://www.espn.com/mlb/war/leaders
it looks like Ohtani has been penalized -1.4 WAR for defense? As far as I can tell, Ohtani has not played any position other than P and DH. He's got a spotless 1.000 fielding percentage from the mound (in 4 attempts lol). So he loses -1.4 points just for being DH? That feels arbitrary. And if you take that -1.4 deduction away, he actually has a better WAR than Judge (10.2 vs. 9.7).
You could say that Ohtani being a DH should count against him, but that site says Judge has a -0.1 defensive WAR. So it's not like he's in the MVP talks for his glove, so it feels unfair to penalize Ohtani -1.4 WAR for not playing defense when Judge is playing defense but apparently not all that well.
Its not without flaws but I still think its probably the best way to generally show the value of a player.
The issue is that its not just so simple as adding OFF+DEF because of the positional adjustments that are used in both calculations. The ESPN chart shows not a single player has a total WAR that equals their OFF+DEF war. It also doesn't help that the calculations vary a bit (fangraphs have a bigger edge for Judge https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/war?season=&wartype=&lg=&team=)
Ohtani being a DH does count against his offensive WAR numbers, but its only a few tenths of a point at most. Its not as extreme as the defense-only WAR numbers indicate.
Another good way is to watch. Ohtani is clearly better than Judge.
Better at what? Pitching?
Ohtani is extremely talented, he’s having a very good year. Even with that, Judge should not only win MVP, it should be unanimous.
Well its clearly not offensively so must be it. Even head to head Judge has an OPS of 3.500.
I'd love to see what Ohtani could do on a decent team in actual pressure/clutch situations. He's crumbled every time he plays in NY.
