Kemp vs trout is a joke
-
@Original_Quad said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
I think the biggest reason Kemp is higher than Zobrist is because Zobrist’s defensive contributions are so much harder to measure than Kemp’s. Remember, Zobrist was the ultimate utility guy.
You’re not wrong, but that’s just another reason why SDS needs to update their rating calculations.
Zobrist was by far the better player, both prime and career. There’s no reason for Kemp to be higher than him, especially not by three points.
-
So since Trout will go down as arguably the best player to ever play and he’s in his prime right now, then we should have NO cards higher than a 94 but him.
Let’s think before we start spitting out complaints. Trout will have his 99.
-
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@Original_Quad said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
I think the biggest reason Kemp is higher than Zobrist is because Zobrist’s defensive contributions are so much harder to measure than Kemp’s. Remember, Zobrist was the ultimate utility guy.
You’re not wrong, but that’s just another reason why SDS needs to update their rating calculations.
Zobrist was by far the better player, both prime and career. There’s no reason for Kemp to be higher than him, especially not by three points.
Yup. This is a case where Kemp was an extremely overrated player (1 elite season and a couple good ones, that's it) and Zobrist was a criminally underrated player.
It pays to play in LA and date Rihanna
-
Isn't it weird how particular people get about card ratings? Especially outfielders. Always gotta compare it to LS Trout.
Why don't we get a thread about every player that is at or above 95?
Paul Molitor is a 96?!?! He's no Trout!
Ozzie Smith is a 95?!? Is SDS saying Ozzie Smith = Mike Trout???
-
@PennStateFencer said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@the_dragon1912 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@PennStateFencer said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
I can’t wait until Trout retires and gets back in the game. He is going to have 150 attributes across the board.
And then we won’t have these stupid arguments comparing live series players to flaskbacks/legends when LS cards have shown they aren’t supposed to be for anything other than investing/collections
And BR of course. Otherwise, who would ever use a silver or gold live series in their lineup after day one?
I would. It’s fun to mix things up now and then and theme teams do that for me. It’s impossible to make full squads of some teams without resorting to silvers and golds now and then.
-
That’s not a joke, here’s a joke: what’s the difference between a donkey and a bmw?
The donkeys (censored) is on the outside
-
@sersimpleton said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
That’s not a joke, here’s a joke: what’s the difference between a donkey and a bmw?
The donkeys (censored) is on the outside
Haha nice. I was gonna say, the answer sure isn't either using turn signals
-
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
-
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
You can't use only offensive numbers and say WAR is evil. Look up their defensive stats too.
-
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
You can't use only offensive numbers and say WAR is evil. Look up their defensive stats too.
But it is a good argument for why Kemp is higher. Hitting stats contribute more to a players ranking in-game then defense does.
-
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
Or, maybe the value of WAR isn’t over-inflated and Zobrist was actually the better overall player, both in prime years and career.
Zobrist having a better Prime and career isn’t debatable at all.
Clearly you’re biased towards WAR being not good, so naturally you’re going to say that when it proves your believes wrong.
-
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
All this tells me is
- Gold gloves are useless.
Zobrist 2009 - 25 DRS, 23.7 UZR
Playing every position but catcher!Kemp 2011 - -7 DRS, -4.8 UZR in CF
That is why bud. WAR is actually very accurate in this case, and makes an even stronger case as to why the people who completely discredit it don't dive deep enough.
Also, WAR values against the comp of that position same year. This is where Zobrist is much more valuable than Kemp and where I'd argue WAR doesn't do a good enough job valuing Zobrist enough.
-
@Nanthrax_1 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
All this tells me is
- Gold gloves are useless.
Zobrist 2009 - 25 DRS, 23.7 UZR
Playing every position but catcher!Kemp 2011 - -7 DRS, -4.8 UZR in CF
That is why bud. WAR is actually very accurate in this case, and makes an even stronger case as to why the people who completely discredit it don't dive deep enough.
Also, WAR values against the comp of that position same year. This is where Zobrist is much more valuable than Kemp and where I'd argue WAR doesn't do a good enough job valuing Zobrist enough.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. These people just don’t get it.
The fact that SDS’s rating calculations puts Kemp 3 points above Zobrist shows that they need to seriously update how they calculate attributes. Something is clearly not working right here.
-
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
All this tells me is
- Gold gloves are useless.
Zobrist 2009 - 25 DRS, 23.7 UZR
Playing every position but catcher!Kemp 2011 - -7 DRS, -4.8 UZR in CF
That is why bud. WAR is actually very accurate in this case, and makes an even stronger case as to why the people who completely discredit it don't dive deep enough.
Also, WAR values against the comp of that position same year. This is where Zobrist is much more valuable than Kemp and where I'd argue WAR doesn't do a good enough job valuing Zobrist enough.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. These people just don’t get it.
The fact that SDS’s rating calculations puts Kemp 3 points above Zobrist shows that they need to seriously update how they calculate attributes. Something is clearly not working right here.
If Kemp's card was an award card for 2011 only, then it could be justifiable.. or a Sig...
But I'm not surprised.. Zobrist is one of the most underrated players of the last 10 or so years.. only now is he seeing the credit, especially in the hardcore community.https://blogs.fangraphs.com/ben-zobrist-will-not-be-underrated-by-the-history-books/
-
Sidenote: I remember during the 2015 deadline, the Jays (Anthopoulos) was going super hard after Zobrist, but the Royals beat his offer.
This may have played a part in ending up with Tulo instead.
I believe if the Jays ended up with Zobrist and still got Price, they might have beat the Royals in the ALCS that year... -
@Nanthrax_1 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
All this tells me is
- Gold gloves are useless.
Zobrist 2009 - 25 DRS, 23.7 UZR
Playing every position but catcher!Kemp 2011 - -7 DRS, -4.8 UZR in CF
That is why bud. WAR is actually very accurate in this case, and makes an even stronger case as to why the people who completely discredit it don't dive deep enough.
Also, WAR values against the comp of that position same year. This is where Zobrist is much more valuable than Kemp and where I'd argue WAR doesn't do a good enough job valuing Zobrist enough.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. These people just don’t get it.
The fact that SDS’s rating calculations puts Kemp 3 points above Zobrist shows that they need to seriously update how they calculate attributes. Something is clearly not working right here.
If Kemp's card was an award card for 2011 only, then it could be justifiable.. or a Sig...
But I'm not surprised.. Zobrist is one of the most underrated players of the last 10 or so years.. only now is he seeing the credit, especially in the hardcore community.https://blogs.fangraphs.com/ben-zobrist-will-not-be-underrated-by-the-history-books/
I wouldn’t even care if it was an award or Sig Kemp, because they obviously calculate those differently from prime cards. But the fact that both of these cards went through the same formulas and this and what came out is just wrong.
If both of these cards were Sigs instead of Prime though, it would be even worse. Zobrist’s career is much, much better than Kemp’s lmao.
-
@eatyum said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
You can't use only offensive numbers and say WAR is evil. Look up their defensive stats too.
But it is a good argument for why Kemp is higher. Hitting stats contribute more to a players ranking in-game then defense does.
Each position weights attributes differently. Corner OF and IF don't value defense as much as C, middle IF, and CF. Kemp's inflated defensive attributes account for that 97. His numbers defensively don't warrant it.
Zobrist's lack of speed at 2B primary makes him a 94.
-
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
All this tells me is
- Gold gloves are useless.
Zobrist 2009 - 25 DRS, 23.7 UZR
Playing every position but catcher!Kemp 2011 - -7 DRS, -4.8 UZR in CF
That is why bud. WAR is actually very accurate in this case, and makes an even stronger case as to why the people who completely discredit it don't dive deep enough.
Also, WAR values against the comp of that position same year. This is where Zobrist is much more valuable than Kemp and where I'd argue WAR doesn't do a good enough job valuing Zobrist enough.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. These people just don’t get it.
The fact that SDS’s rating calculations puts Kemp 3 points above Zobrist shows that they need to seriously update how they calculate attributes. Something is clearly not working right here.
If Kemp's card was an award card for 2011 only, then it could be justifiable.. or a Sig...
But I'm not surprised.. Zobrist is one of the most underrated players of the last 10 or so years.. only now is he seeing the credit, especially in the hardcore community.https://blogs.fangraphs.com/ben-zobrist-will-not-be-underrated-by-the-history-books/
I wouldn’t even care if it was an award or Sig Kemp, because they obviously calculate those differently from prime cards. But the fact that both of these cards went through the same formulas and this and what came out is just wrong.
If both of these cards were Sigs instead of Prime though, it would be even worse. Zobrist’s career is much, much better than Kemp’s lmao.
The formula for CF isn't the same as 2B to dtermine overall ratings.
-
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@Original_Quad said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
I think the biggest reason Kemp is higher than Zobrist is because Zobrist’s defensive contributions are so much harder to measure than Kemp’s. Remember, Zobrist was the ultimate utility guy.
You’re not wrong, but that’s just another reason why SDS needs to update their rating calculations.
Zobrist was by far the better player, both prime and career. There’s no reason for Kemp to be higher than him, especially not by three points.
Both are somehow rated higher than Feller. He led the league in Ks, IP, CG (36!), SO, Wins, and even had 4 saves. He had a WAR of 10 that season.
-
@formallyforearms said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@Original_Quad said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
I think the biggest reason Kemp is higher than Zobrist is because Zobrist’s defensive contributions are so much harder to measure than Kemp’s. Remember, Zobrist was the ultimate utility guy.
You’re not wrong, but that’s just another reason why SDS needs to update their rating calculations.
Zobrist was by far the better player, both prime and career. There’s no reason for Kemp to be higher than him, especially not by three points.
Both are somehow rated higher than Feller. He led the league in Ks, IP, CG (36!), SO, Wins, and even had 4 saves. He had a WAR of 10 that season.
Yeah, but it’s pointless to compare different types of cards though.
