Kemp vs trout is a joke
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@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
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@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
You can't use only offensive numbers and say WAR is evil. Look up their defensive stats too.
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@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
You can't use only offensive numbers and say WAR is evil. Look up their defensive stats too.
But it is a good argument for why Kemp is higher. Hitting stats contribute more to a players ranking in-game then defense does.
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@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
Or, maybe the value of WAR isn’t over-inflated and Zobrist was actually the better overall player, both in prime years and career.
Zobrist having a better Prime and career isn’t debatable at all.
Clearly you’re biased towards WAR being not good, so naturally you’re going to say that when it proves your believes wrong.
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@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
All this tells me is
- Gold gloves are useless.
Zobrist 2009 - 25 DRS, 23.7 UZR
Playing every position but catcher!Kemp 2011 - -7 DRS, -4.8 UZR in CF
That is why bud. WAR is actually very accurate in this case, and makes an even stronger case as to why the people who completely discredit it don't dive deep enough.
Also, WAR values against the comp of that position same year. This is where Zobrist is much more valuable than Kemp and where I'd argue WAR doesn't do a good enough job valuing Zobrist enough.
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@Nanthrax_1 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
All this tells me is
- Gold gloves are useless.
Zobrist 2009 - 25 DRS, 23.7 UZR
Playing every position but catcher!Kemp 2011 - -7 DRS, -4.8 UZR in CF
That is why bud. WAR is actually very accurate in this case, and makes an even stronger case as to why the people who completely discredit it don't dive deep enough.
Also, WAR values against the comp of that position same year. This is where Zobrist is much more valuable than Kemp and where I'd argue WAR doesn't do a good enough job valuing Zobrist enough.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. These people just don’t get it.
The fact that SDS’s rating calculations puts Kemp 3 points above Zobrist shows that they need to seriously update how they calculate attributes. Something is clearly not working right here.
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@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
All this tells me is
- Gold gloves are useless.
Zobrist 2009 - 25 DRS, 23.7 UZR
Playing every position but catcher!Kemp 2011 - -7 DRS, -4.8 UZR in CF
That is why bud. WAR is actually very accurate in this case, and makes an even stronger case as to why the people who completely discredit it don't dive deep enough.
Also, WAR values against the comp of that position same year. This is where Zobrist is much more valuable than Kemp and where I'd argue WAR doesn't do a good enough job valuing Zobrist enough.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. These people just don’t get it.
The fact that SDS’s rating calculations puts Kemp 3 points above Zobrist shows that they need to seriously update how they calculate attributes. Something is clearly not working right here.
If Kemp's card was an award card for 2011 only, then it could be justifiable.. or a Sig...
But I'm not surprised.. Zobrist is one of the most underrated players of the last 10 or so years.. only now is he seeing the credit, especially in the hardcore community.https://blogs.fangraphs.com/ben-zobrist-will-not-be-underrated-by-the-history-books/
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Sidenote: I remember during the 2015 deadline, the Jays (Anthopoulos) was going super hard after Zobrist, but the Royals beat his offer.
This may have played a part in ending up with Tulo instead.
I believe if the Jays ended up with Zobrist and still got Price, they might have beat the Royals in the ALCS that year... -
@Nanthrax_1 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
All this tells me is
- Gold gloves are useless.
Zobrist 2009 - 25 DRS, 23.7 UZR
Playing every position but catcher!Kemp 2011 - -7 DRS, -4.8 UZR in CF
That is why bud. WAR is actually very accurate in this case, and makes an even stronger case as to why the people who completely discredit it don't dive deep enough.
Also, WAR values against the comp of that position same year. This is where Zobrist is much more valuable than Kemp and where I'd argue WAR doesn't do a good enough job valuing Zobrist enough.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. These people just don’t get it.
The fact that SDS’s rating calculations puts Kemp 3 points above Zobrist shows that they need to seriously update how they calculate attributes. Something is clearly not working right here.
If Kemp's card was an award card for 2011 only, then it could be justifiable.. or a Sig...
But I'm not surprised.. Zobrist is one of the most underrated players of the last 10 or so years.. only now is he seeing the credit, especially in the hardcore community.https://blogs.fangraphs.com/ben-zobrist-will-not-be-underrated-by-the-history-books/
I wouldn’t even care if it was an award or Sig Kemp, because they obviously calculate those differently from prime cards. But the fact that both of these cards went through the same formulas and this and what came out is just wrong.
If both of these cards were Sigs instead of Prime though, it would be even worse. Zobrist’s career is much, much better than Kemp’s lmao.
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@eatyum said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
You can't use only offensive numbers and say WAR is evil. Look up their defensive stats too.
But it is a good argument for why Kemp is higher. Hitting stats contribute more to a players ranking in-game then defense does.
Each position weights attributes differently. Corner OF and IF don't value defense as much as C, middle IF, and CF. Kemp's inflated defensive attributes account for that 97. His numbers defensively don't warrant it.
Zobrist's lack of speed at 2B primary makes him a 94.
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@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
All this tells me is
- Gold gloves are useless.
Zobrist 2009 - 25 DRS, 23.7 UZR
Playing every position but catcher!Kemp 2011 - -7 DRS, -4.8 UZR in CF
That is why bud. WAR is actually very accurate in this case, and makes an even stronger case as to why the people who completely discredit it don't dive deep enough.
Also, WAR values against the comp of that position same year. This is where Zobrist is much more valuable than Kemp and where I'd argue WAR doesn't do a good enough job valuing Zobrist enough.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. These people just don’t get it.
The fact that SDS’s rating calculations puts Kemp 3 points above Zobrist shows that they need to seriously update how they calculate attributes. Something is clearly not working right here.
If Kemp's card was an award card for 2011 only, then it could be justifiable.. or a Sig...
But I'm not surprised.. Zobrist is one of the most underrated players of the last 10 or so years.. only now is he seeing the credit, especially in the hardcore community.https://blogs.fangraphs.com/ben-zobrist-will-not-be-underrated-by-the-history-books/
I wouldn’t even care if it was an award or Sig Kemp, because they obviously calculate those differently from prime cards. But the fact that both of these cards went through the same formulas and this and what came out is just wrong.
If both of these cards were Sigs instead of Prime though, it would be even worse. Zobrist’s career is much, much better than Kemp’s lmao.
The formula for CF isn't the same as 2B to dtermine overall ratings.
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@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@Original_Quad said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
I think the biggest reason Kemp is higher than Zobrist is because Zobrist’s defensive contributions are so much harder to measure than Kemp’s. Remember, Zobrist was the ultimate utility guy.
You’re not wrong, but that’s just another reason why SDS needs to update their rating calculations.
Zobrist was by far the better player, both prime and career. There’s no reason for Kemp to be higher than him, especially not by three points.
Both are somehow rated higher than Feller. He led the league in Ks, IP, CG (36!), SO, Wins, and even had 4 saves. He had a WAR of 10 that season.
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@formallyforearms said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@Original_Quad said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
I think the biggest reason Kemp is higher than Zobrist is because Zobrist’s defensive contributions are so much harder to measure than Kemp’s. Remember, Zobrist was the ultimate utility guy.
You’re not wrong, but that’s just another reason why SDS needs to update their rating calculations.
Zobrist was by far the better player, both prime and career. There’s no reason for Kemp to be higher than him, especially not by three points.
Both are somehow rated higher than Feller. He led the league in Ks, IP, CG (36!), SO, Wins, and even had 4 saves. He had a WAR of 10 that season.
Yeah, but it’s pointless to compare different types of cards though.
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@challengerjs said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@dark_Jsaac said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
SDS clearly can’t figure it out. Kemp was never better in his career than trout is now but he’s rated higher lmaoooooo
Makes sense why the game doesn’t work
THANK YOU. Every year this kinda stuff drives me insane. Especially when you don’t have money to spend on the game and have to grind for LS cards.
Last year there was about 100 players who were never as good as Trout is right now, but had better cards than his Live Series. And now this year every average minor league player apparently deserves a card as good as Trout. Makes no sense.
This game is 100% no money spent. Every single card can be earned with skill and/or strategic plan.
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@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
All this tells me is
- Gold gloves are useless.
Zobrist 2009 - 25 DRS, 23.7 UZR
Playing every position but catcher!Kemp 2011 - -7 DRS, -4.8 UZR in CF
That is why bud. WAR is actually very accurate in this case, and makes an even stronger case as to why the people who completely discredit it don't dive deep enough.
Also, WAR values against the comp of that position same year. This is where Zobrist is much more valuable than Kemp and where I'd argue WAR doesn't do a good enough job valuing Zobrist enough.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. These people just don’t get it.
The fact that SDS’s rating calculations puts Kemp 3 points above Zobrist shows that they need to seriously update how they calculate attributes. Something is clearly not working right here.
Ok look. First of all, I'm FAR from a novice baseball guy, a WAR denier, a guy who doesn't get it, or any of the other [censored] I've seen on this thread in the last 12 hrs lol. Second, think about attributes for a second -
Contact rating - theoretically linked to batting average: Other than the 1 year where he hit .297, Zobrist never hit higher than .275 for Tampa. He's a .266 career hitter. Kemp hit .290 or greater 5 out of 6 years, .342 in a shortened year, and .324 in his career year. Contact - NOT CLOSE.
Power - theoretically linked to slugging %. Kemp averaged about .506 from '07-'12. Zobrist has had 1 year in his whole career above .506. And Kemp hit a lot more homeruns too. So power isn't close.
Speed - Not close - we all know that.
Fielding - Zobrist was above average anywhere he played. Definitely valuable; more valuable than Kemp. But - it's not like Kemp wasn't good...range factor in CF consistently around league average. Fielding % consistently slightly above league average. And he had a very strong arm (more than 10 assists from CF 5 times - had 16 one year). There's a reason Kemp won 2 gold gloves, and it's not because observers were all stupid.
Plate discipline - Zobrist walked more, but not dramatically more.
Vision - Zobrist k'd a lot less, so Zobrist easily.
So when we go down the list, we see that Zobrist is an overall better defensive player, and the positional versatility of course factors in (though probably not in a video game). But, as offensive players these two weren't even close when they were both young. You'd have been hard-pressed to find a single coach or scout, other than Joe Maddon, who would have valued Zobrist ahead of Kemp at that time.
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@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
All this tells me is
- Gold gloves are useless.
Zobrist 2009 - 25 DRS, 23.7 UZR
Playing every position but catcher!Kemp 2011 - -7 DRS, -4.8 UZR in CF
That is why bud. WAR is actually very accurate in this case, and makes an even stronger case as to why the people who completely discredit it don't dive deep enough.
Also, WAR values against the comp of that position same year. This is where Zobrist is much more valuable than Kemp and where I'd argue WAR doesn't do a good enough job valuing Zobrist enough.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. These people just don’t get it.
The fact that SDS’s rating calculations puts Kemp 3 points above Zobrist shows that they need to seriously update how they calculate attributes. Something is clearly not working right here.
Ok look. First of all, I'm FAR from a novice baseball guy, a WAR denier, a guy who doesn't get it, or any of the other [censored] I've seen on this thread in the last 12 hrs lol. Second, think about attributes for a second -
Contact rating - theoretically linked to batting average: Other than the 1 year where he hit .297, Zobrist never hit higher than .275 for Tampa. He's a .266 career hitter. Kemp hit .290 or greater 5 out of 6 years, .342 in a shortened year, and .324 in his career year. Contact - NOT CLOSE.
Power - theoretically linked to slugging %. Kemp averaged about .506 from '07-'12. Zobrist has had 1 year in his whole career above .506. And Kemp hit a lot more homeruns too. So power isn't close.
Speed - Not close - we all know that.
Fielding - Zobrist was above average anywhere he played. Definitely valuable; more valuable than Kemp. But - it's not like Kemp wasn't good...range factor in CF consistently around league average. Fielding % consistently slightly above league average. And he had a very strong arm (more than 10 assists from CF 5 times - had 16 one year). There's a reason Kemp won 2 gold gloves, and it's not because observers were all stupid.
Plate discipline - Zobrist walked more, but not dramatically more.
Vision - Zobrist k'd a lot less, so Zobrist easily.
So when we go down the list, we see that Zobrist is an overall better defensive player, and the positional versatility of course factors in (though probably not in a video game). But, as offensive players these two weren't even close when they were both young. You'd have been hard-pressed to find a single coach or scout, other than Joe Maddon, who would have valued Zobrist ahead of Kemp at that time.
AB/HR seems to be the best choice for deciphering power attributes. It discredits guys who can still slug without hitting a lot of HRs but it is what it is.
I've been a proponent of breaking up power from HR ability. 30 HR that travel 390ft count the same as 30 HR that travel 450ft.
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@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
All this tells me is
- Gold gloves are useless.
Zobrist 2009 - 25 DRS, 23.7 UZR
Playing every position but catcher!Kemp 2011 - -7 DRS, -4.8 UZR in CF
That is why bud. WAR is actually very accurate in this case, and makes an even stronger case as to why the people who completely discredit it don't dive deep enough.
Also, WAR values against the comp of that position same year. This is where Zobrist is much more valuable than Kemp and where I'd argue WAR doesn't do a good enough job valuing Zobrist enough.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. These people just don’t get it.
The fact that SDS’s rating calculations puts Kemp 3 points above Zobrist shows that they need to seriously update how they calculate attributes. Something is clearly not working right here.
Ok look. First of all, I'm FAR from a novice baseball guy, a WAR denier, a guy who doesn't get it, or any of the other [censored] I've seen on this thread in the last 12 hrs lol. Second, think about attributes for a second -
Contact rating - theoretically linked to batting average: Other than the 1 year where he hit .297, Zobrist never hit higher than .275 for Tampa. He's a .266 career hitter. Kemp hit .290 or greater 5 out of 6 years, .342 in a shortened year, and .324 in his career year. Contact - NOT CLOSE.
Power - theoretically linked to slugging %. Kemp averaged about .506 from '07-'12. Zobrist has had 1 year in his whole career above .506. And Kemp hit a lot more homeruns too. So power isn't close.
Speed - Not close - we all know that.
Fielding - Zobrist was above average anywhere he played. Definitely valuable; more valuable than Kemp. But - it's not like Kemp wasn't good...range factor in CF consistently around league average. Fielding % consistently slightly above league average. And he had a very strong arm (more than 10 assists from CF 5 times - had 16 one year). There's a reason Kemp won 2 gold gloves, and it's not because observers were all stupid.
Plate discipline - Zobrist walked more, but not dramatically more.
Vision - Zobrist k'd a lot less, so Zobrist easily.
So when we go down the list, we see that Zobrist is an overall better defensive player, and the positional versatility of course factors in (though probably not in a video game). But, as offensive players these two weren't even close when they were both young. You'd have been hard-pressed to find a single coach or scout, other than Joe Maddon, who would have valued Zobrist ahead of Kemp at that time.
Great post! I'll give credit where it's due and you made a good counter argument..
While I don't agree that Kemp should be 3 points higher than Zobrist, as he's not a better player than Ben, with how SDS gets their ratings, you definitely made good points. Versatility doesn't add rating. -
I got a joke. How do you make a tissue dance?
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Pepe Alazar, greatest baseball player of all time.
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@AMKing_23 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
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Its a flashback card and Trout's is a live series and the cap on those is 95.
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Kemp almost went 40/40 and nearly won an MVP if it weren't for Braun on roids.
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Yes Trout is much better than Kemp ever was but its good for the game to release different elite level cards so lineups are more diverse
Is it possible to like a comment a million times cause that's what I want to do with this @AMKing_23
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