Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood
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@dbarmonstar said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
No matter what formula you use you can not compare players in different eras. Rules were different, Stadiums or Parks were different, 4 man rotations, CP games were a thing. Less teams in the leaugue. Overall players were better, the pitching was better, We have SP now that can not pitch past 4 or 5 innings. The game evolves and changes. To compare guys who played in the 60's to guys playing now off a formula is crazy. Some of those guys you mentioned like Zobrist Kinsler Pedroia, Granderson, Holliday, might have not made it to the MLB level and same goes for Brock if he was playing now..
Except you literally can use WAR to compare players from different years, eras, leagues, parks, etc.
Same for wRC+, it’s based on league averages so it’s perfectly acceptable to use between eras.
That’s the beauty of having these formulas, they let us make comparisons that couldn’t be made before.
Also, saying pitchers were better back then is absurd. Pitching has gotten drastically better in recent years. Overall players are better now than they ever have been.
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@mjfc_363 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
In my opinion, probly the main reason guys don’t steal bases anymore, is the organizations don’t want them to. It’s extremely hard on the body! Jammed fingers, broken fingers, broken wrists, pulled hamstrings, etc. the fact that guys like Brock, Rickey and Tim Raines were able to do it for so long is remarkable.
No lol, it’s because they aren’t worth the risk.
Highly recommend you read this article.
https://batflipsandnerds.com/2018/11/03/analytics-and-its-effects-on-the-mlb-the-stolen-base/
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@DriveByTrucker17 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@dbarmonstar said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
No matter what formula you use you can not compare players in different eras. Rules were different, Stadiums or Parks were different, 4 man rotations, CP games were a thing. Less teams in the leaugue. Overall players were better, the pitching was better, We have SP now that can not pitch past 4 or 5 innings. The game evolves and changes. To compare guys who played in the 60's to guys playing now off a formula is crazy. Some of those guys you mentioned like Zobrist Kinsler Pedroia, Granderson, Holliday, might have not made it to the MLB level and same goes for Brock if he was playing now..
Except you literally can use WAR to compare players from different years, eras, leagues, parks, etc.
Same for wRC+, it’s based on league averages so it’s perfectly acceptable to use between eras.
That’s the beauty of having these formulas, they let us make comparisons that couldn’t be made before.
Also, saying pitchers were better back then is absurd. Pitching has gotten drastically better in recent years. Overall players are better now than they ever have been.
No you can not, because the players never actually played in that era, A useless formula to try and compare players in different ERA's is not reality, you use your numbers all you want but unless those players played in those times you really would not know what type of player they would be. WAR means nothing for comparing players from different ERA's. Yes pitching was better, pitching is so watered down now guys can not even go 9 innings the last true 9 inning pitcher was Roy Halliday. If pitching is better now how come teams need so many failed SP to be in the bullpen. 5 6 is probably the avg innings for a pitcher in today's game. CP in the 80's could go 2 or 3 innings now limited to 1. Using WAR to compare is ABSURBED, tell with 100 percent fact that any of those players playing now would have the war they do or would be higher? Wait you can not because WAR in comparison how a player would have played is speculation you can take that to the bank.
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@DriveByTrucker17 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@mjfc_363 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
In my opinion, probly the main reason guys don’t steal bases anymore, is the organizations don’t want them to. It’s extremely hard on the body! Jammed fingers, broken fingers, broken wrists, pulled hamstrings, etc. the fact that guys like Brock, Rickey and Tim Raines were able to do it for so long is remarkable.
No lol, it’s because they aren’t worth the risk.
Highly recommend you read this article.
https://batflipsandnerds.com/2018/11/03/analytics-and-its-effects-on-the-mlb-the-stolen-base/
They want the guy coming up to hit a HR or K, teams hardly even hit and run in today's game.
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@DriveByTrucker17 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@dbarmonstar said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
No matter what formula you use you can not compare players in different eras. Rules were different, Stadiums or Parks were different, 4 man rotations, CP games were a thing. Less teams in the leaugue. Overall players were better, the pitching was better, We have SP now that can not pitch past 4 or 5 innings. The game evolves and changes. To compare guys who played in the 60's to guys playing now off a formula is crazy. Some of those guys you mentioned like Zobrist Kinsler Pedroia, Granderson, Holliday, might have not made it to the MLB level and same goes for Brock if he was playing now..
Except you literally can use WAR to compare players from different years, eras, leagues, parks, etc.
Same for wRC+, it’s based on league averages so it’s perfectly acceptable to use between eras.
That’s the beauty of having these formulas, they let us make comparisons that couldn’t be made before.
Also, saying pitchers were better back then is absurd. Pitching has gotten drastically better in recent years. Overall players are better now than they ever have been.
Oh and just cause guys can throw harder does not mean pitching is better.
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@DriveByTrucker17 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@dbarmonstar said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
No matter what formula you use you can not compare players in different eras. Rules were different, Stadiums or Parks were different, 4 man rotations, CP games were a thing. Less teams in the leaugue. Overall players were better, the pitching was better, We have SP now that can not pitch past 4 or 5 innings. The game evolves and changes. To compare guys who played in the 60's to guys playing now off a formula is crazy. Some of those guys you mentioned like Zobrist Kinsler Pedroia, Granderson, Holliday, might have not made it to the MLB level and same goes for Brock if he was playing now..
Except you literally can use WAR to compare players from different years, eras, leagues, parks, etc.
Same for wRC+, it’s based on league averages so it’s perfectly acceptable to use between eras.
That’s the beauty of having these formulas, they let us make comparisons that couldn’t be made before.
Also, saying pitchers were better back then is absurd. Pitching has gotten drastically better in recent years. Overall players are better now than they ever have been.
Go research in 1968 AL TOP 25 ERA leaders, and then go look at 2019 AL top 25 it is so laughable how bad pitching is today.
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How and why are you guys measuring the careers of players in the HoF against stats that did not exist until after the player had retired? Would it be fair to evaluate you for job performance against a metric you had no way to know you were going to be measured against? How can one know to elevate one's game above a bar which has not yet been established.
Of course Lou Brock belongs in the HOF because according to the metrics used when he retired and was eventually voted in he was among the best of his era.
Can a person be voted into the HoF based on historical impact upon the game? Some day Billy Beane will get into the HoF for his historical impact on the game from the front office...even if he never wins a World Series.
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@dbarmonstar said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@dbarmonstar said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
No matter what formula you use you can not compare players in different eras. Rules were different, Stadiums or Parks were different, 4 man rotations, CP games were a thing. Less teams in the leaugue. Overall players were better, the pitching was better, We have SP now that can not pitch past 4 or 5 innings. The game evolves and changes. To compare guys who played in the 60's to guys playing now off a formula is crazy. Some of those guys you mentioned like Zobrist Kinsler Pedroia, Granderson, Holliday, might have not made it to the MLB level and same goes for Brock if he was playing now..
Except you literally can use WAR to compare players from different years, eras, leagues, parks, etc.
Same for wRC+, it’s based on league averages so it’s perfectly acceptable to use between eras.
That’s the beauty of having these formulas, they let us make comparisons that couldn’t be made before.
Also, saying pitchers were better back then is absurd. Pitching has gotten drastically better in recent years. Overall players are better now than they ever have been.
Go research in 1968 AL TOP 25 ERA leaders, and then go look at 2019 AL top 25 it is so laughable how bad pitching is today.
I haven't looked up the stats but what did 69' ERA leaders look like, or even 70'? I know MLB lowered the mounds after 68' because the pitchers were dominating. I wouldn't say pitching is bad today. It's the fact that MLB is more about how hard someone throws rather than hitting spots with movement at 92MPH. I think the strike zone has also dramatically decreased since the 60's. MLB wants more offense with a little bit of pitching.
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@dbarmonstar said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@mjfc_363 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
In my opinion, probly the main reason guys don’t steal bases anymore, is the organizations don’t want them to. It’s extremely hard on the body! Jammed fingers, broken fingers, broken wrists, pulled hamstrings, etc. the fact that guys like Brock, Rickey and Tim Raines were able to do it for so long is remarkable.
No lol, it’s because they aren’t worth the risk.
Highly recommend you read this article.
https://batflipsandnerds.com/2018/11/03/analytics-and-its-effects-on-the-mlb-the-stolen-base/
They want the guy coming up to hit a HR or K, teams hardly even hit and run in today's game.
I read you’re article. It’s very interesting!!! A little over a month ago MLB Network did a special on the 80’s Redbirds. It was well done!! Smoltz just came right out and said “I know what the numbers say, but as a former pitcher who had to deal with that, I dont know why teams don’t utilize that more.” I believe analytics have value, but I don’t live by them!
The Cards made it to the WS 3 times in 6 years playing that way. That style of play is so much more exciting than watching guys sit back and hit bombs. Just my opinion though. -
@Matt_42187 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@dbarmonstar said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@dbarmonstar said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
No matter what formula you use you can not compare players in different eras. Rules were different, Stadiums or Parks were different, 4 man rotations, CP games were a thing. Less teams in the leaugue. Overall players were better, the pitching was better, We have SP now that can not pitch past 4 or 5 innings. The game evolves and changes. To compare guys who played in the 60's to guys playing now off a formula is crazy. Some of those guys you mentioned like Zobrist Kinsler Pedroia, Granderson, Holliday, might have not made it to the MLB level and same goes for Brock if he was playing now..
Except you literally can use WAR to compare players from different years, eras, leagues, parks, etc.
Same for wRC+, it’s based on league averages so it’s perfectly acceptable to use between eras.
That’s the beauty of having these formulas, they let us make comparisons that couldn’t be made before.
Also, saying pitchers were better back then is absurd. Pitching has gotten drastically better in recent years. Overall players are better now than they ever have been.
Go research in 1968 AL TOP 25 ERA leaders, and then go look at 2019 AL top 25 it is so laughable how bad pitching is today.
I haven't looked up the stats but what did 69' ERA leaders look like, or even 70'? I know MLB lowered the mounds after 68' because the pitchers were dominating. I wouldn't say pitching is bad today. It's the fact that MLB is more about how hard someone throws rather than hitting spots with movement at 92MPH. I think the strike zone has also dramatically decreased since the 60's. MLB wants more offense with a little bit of pitching.
4 MAN Rotation vs 5, more bullpen arms. More teams is part of that reason, there were 4 teams added in the 90's, that's 20 SP and add 30 more with the 5 man rotations. New ball parks that are hitter friendly. Coors field alone has ruined pitchers. I did say it is not about pitching as much as it is about just throwing Hard. In 1969 it was still a lot better than what it is now. The highest ERA out of the top 25 era in 1969 AL was 3.52. In 2019 AL only 5 were under 3.52.
https://www.baseball-almanac.com/yearly/top25.php?s=ERA&l=AL&y=1969
www.baseball-almanac.com/yearly/top25.php?s=ERA&l=AL&y=2019 -
@Some_Schmuck_22 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
How and why are you guys measuring the careers of players in the HoF against stats that did not exist until after the player had retired? Would it be fair to evaluate you for job performance against a metric you had no way to know you were going to be measured against? How can one know to elevate one's game above a bar which has not yet been established.
Of course Lou Brock belongs in the HOF because according to the metrics used when he retired and was eventually voted in he was among the best of his era.
Can a person be voted into the HoF based on historical impact upon the game? Some day Billy Beane will get into the HoF for his historical impact on the game from the front office...even if he never wins a World Series.
Totally Agree
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this is AL TOP 25 in 1968 huge difference
https://www.baseball-almanac.com/yearly/top25.php?s=ERA&l=AL&y=1968 -
In 1985 pitchers were better than today based on ERA
https://www.baseball-almanac.com/yearly/top25.php?s=ERA&l=NL&y=1985 -
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