Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood
-
@nflman2033 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
Zobrist lead league in Sac Flies one time. That is it. Lifetime slash in PS is .241/.306/.377 not sure how hes in this
Pedroia PS isnt good either. .233/.313/.374
He does have an MVP, but basically that is his only Hall of fame worthy year. Not sure why you brought him up.
Lead league in 3B twice, RBI once. Runs once. 3 AS. Post season slash sucks too. So again dont see it.
Holiday has best case of those you said, 7 time AS, RBI champ and batting champion, but in same year. Take away his 2007 he has very little. Again not a good post season slash. So that is a no too
So fWAR is the only thing you look at for Hall considerations, seems really close minded of you.
Brock 8 time SB leader. 2 times Runs. 2Bs and 3Bs twice. Played in an era with less offense than all those guys you mentioned. Slashed. 391/.424/.655 in postseason.
Use fWAR all you want, to compare players of the same era. But those guys didnt play in the league in 1968 when the mound was higher. So yes that is why I dont see those guys as HOFers but I do Brock. I am done with this, it's stupid that we cant have a different opinion, so goodbye.
Clearly you don’t understand that fWAR is the best stat we have that encompasses a player’s entire value and career. fWAR is also context, league, and park neutral, meaning it can absolutely be used to compare players from different eras.
I also used wRC+, which is based off league average, so it’s perfectly acceptable to compare players with. It also shows a player’s full offensive value, as opposed to your base stats.
We aren’t talking just talking about a player’s PS stats, we’re talking career stats. All of those guys were better overall players than Brock. Does Mike Trout not belong in the hall of fame because of his nonexistent postseason stats?
You used RBI, which is essentially a team stat, not an individual stat. Runs also do not matter, as they depend on teammates. A player does not have to lead the league in a stat to be a better player. Was Tim Anderson the best offensive player just because he lead the league in AVG? Should Whit Merrifield be in the hall of fame because he led the league in stolen bases once? Your idea that a player has to lead the league in a stat is archaic.
If stolen bases were so valuable, Brock would not have a 109 career wRC+. The only closed minded person here is you, since you continue to stubbornly use inferior and outdated base stats to compare players. Get with the times, old man.
-
The mound was higher, and the seams on the ball were raised more back then. So yes it was probly more difficult to hit back then. And every stat is relevant when discussing the hall of fame! Just some more than others.
-
@mjfc_363 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
The mound was higher, and the seams on the ball were raised more back then. So yes it was probly more difficult to hit back then. And every stat is relevant when discussing the hall of fame! Just some more than others.
It definitely was not more difficult to hit back then lmao.
Average fastball velocity has increased dramatically. Spin rate has also increased. Pitchers have highly detailed scouting reports on every batter. Hitting is tougher than it’s ever been.
-
those who say Brock is boarder line or should not be, you must understand how the HOF works, Go back and look at who was on the ballot with Brock at that time. What voters looked at back then and how they looked at things over the different decades to vote a player in has changed. Y
-
If you compared him to guys that played before him and during his time you can see how he was not just boarder line. During that time SB was a huge part of the game. Now it all about hitting 250 and 40 plus HR. with over 200 k's.
-
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@nflman2033 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@nflman2033 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@nflman2033 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@nflman2033 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@nflman2033 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@nflman2033 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@nflman2033 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@mjfc_363 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@nflman2033 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@mjfc_363 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
Curt Floods career was average because he sacrificed his career. He would’ve been a guy that got elected because of his accumulative stats. For example, Lou Brock never won a batting title. In fact was only a .293 career hitter. Only led the league in doubles once. Only led the league in triples once. Only led the league in runs twice. NEVER led the league in hits. Yet there he is in the Hall. The argument is Flood would’ve had a similar career. Because of his sacrifice, players now have free agency. I happen to agree, I think he should be in there!
On top of owning the single Season SB record and career SB record when he retired, go back and look at what Brock did in the postseason and especially the World Series.
Brock is fully deserving of his HOF spot.
I never said Brock didn’t deserve to get in. He absolutely does!! I’m saying he got mostly because of his longevity. He had a great career. I do stand by what I said! Everything I said is correct. By the way, I’m also a Cards fan. Have been since 1980.
Yeah it surprised me that you wouldn't have, but I have seen Brocks name come up a lot as being unworthy. Really irritating. I'm a Reds fan I hate the Cardinals, but he is no doubt worthy.
Ehh, Brock is a borderline hall of famer. He’s near the bottom of hall members for sure.
Hell, Ben zobrist has slightly more career fWAR in 1000 less games than Brock.
Look at his postseason play, oh and did I say most SBs in a season and a career when he retired.
I've heard this from sabermetrics people for years. It's not correct. Seriously look at what he did on the big stage of the WS. One of the best ever in WS play.
What did those SBs add to his offensive value? Hardly anything. That’s why barely anybody even bothers with them anymore.
It doesn’t matter what he did in the postseason, it’s about his career. His career was decent, but there’s plenty of solid reasons against him being in the Hall.
In the grand scheme of things, his career is near the bottom among hall of famers.
It took him 18 years to get 43.2 fWAR. That’s pretty underwhelming. He only had two seasons with 5 fWAR. He only had a 108 wRC+ the year he stole 118 bases. He was basically a league average offensive player that year, and only had 3.0 fWAR.
Good player, but him being in the hall of fame is highly debatable.
I disagree comp and think you undervalue everything that was fantastic about him
I don’t undervalue him, I’m just saying what the stats show. And the stats show that he was good but not amazing, and that he just played for forever.
No you undervalue SB and postseason play. He was electrifying on the base paths and came through on the big stage when he was most needed. You said so what to both, so you undervalue the 2 biggest things about him. So there is no point continuing this discussion.
Like I said, I don’t undervalue him. Stolen bases just aren’t valuable. He was good in a couple postseason runs, but those are small sample sizes. In a full season, he wasn’t anything special.
If we’re going off postseason play for getting guys into the Hall, we might as well just put Joe Carter in there for his WS homerun.
Seriously I keep saying you undervalue those stats, and you counter by saying that you dont undervalue him you undervalue his stats, its like you are deliberately ignoring what I am saying.
How many records did Joe Carter break? How many times did he lead the league in any one stat?
If I said Brock should be in because he had a solid career and 1 big WS moment you'd have a case comparing him. But brock had a very good long career and if he didnt have his postseason play and was a 20 SB a year guy, he wouldn't be hall worthy. But those two metrics added to a very good very long career locks him in as a Hall guy. Unless you want to completely ignore them because you dont think SBs are important and what you do in the postseason is irrelevant. Which is basically what you are saying, I have no way to convince you to change your mind on that and that's fine, you are allowed to your opinion. Just know that I dont agree with your opinion and that is my right.
I’m not ignoring anything. I don’t undervalue stolen bases, I’m saying that statistically it has been proven they barely add any value to a player. That’s not my opinion, that’s what the stats say.
It’s laughable that you think a guy should be in the hall of fame because of a statistic that is proven to provide little value, and a couple postseason runs. Along with a long, usually slightly above average, career.
Just curious, what’s your opinion on somebody like Zobrist getting into the hof? Or Ian Kinsler? Matt Holliday? Dustin Perdoia? Curtis Granderson?
So my opinion is laughable. I've been nice, but I'm done.
Thanks for not answering the question.
Without looking at anything. My answer is no to all. Did any one of those players retire as the career leader on any stat, significant or not? So if not then then they do not have the same case as Brock.
All of those guys have had equal or better careers than Brock.
Zobrist: 44.4 fWAR in 1651 games, 116 wRC+
Kinsler: 47.7 fWAR in 1888 games, 107 wRC+
Holliday: 49.7 fWAR in 1903 games, 135 wRC+
Pedroia: 46.6 fWAR in 1512 games, 115 wRC+
Granderson: 47.6 fWAR in 2057 games, 115 wRC+
Lou Brock: 43.2 fWAR in 2616 games, 109 wRC+It’s a bit contradictory to say Brock had a hall of fame career and not all of those guys, just because they were never the best at any one individual stat.
None of them played in Brocks era. WAR is overrated
-
No matter what formula you use you can not compare players in different eras. Rules were different, Stadiums or Parks were different, 4 man rotations, CP games were a thing. Less teams in the leaugue. Overall players were better, the pitching was better, We have SP now that can not pitch past 4 or 5 innings. The game evolves and changes. To compare guys who played in the 60's to guys playing now off a formula is crazy. Some of those guys you mentioned like Zobrist Kinsler Pedroia, Granderson, Holliday, might have not made it to the MLB level and same goes for Brock if he was playing now..
-
@dbarmonstar said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
No matter what formula you use you can not compare players in different eras. Rules were different, Stadiums or Parks were different, 4 man rotations, CP games were a thing. Less teams in the leaugue. Overall players were better, the pitching was better, We have SP now that can not pitch past 4 or 5 innings. The game evolves and changes. To compare guys who played in the 60's to guys playing now off a formula is crazy. Some of those guys you mentioned like Zobrist Kinsler Pedroia, Granderson, Holliday, might have not made it to the MLB level and same goes for Brock if he was playing now..
True statement!
-
In my opinion, probly the main reason guys don’t steal bases anymore, is the organizations don’t want them to. It’s extremely hard on the body! Jammed fingers, broken fingers, broken wrists, pulled hamstrings, etc. the fact that guys like Brock, Rickey and Tim Raines were able to do it for so long is remarkable.
-
@dbarmonstar said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
No matter what formula you use you can not compare players in different eras. Rules were different, Stadiums or Parks were different, 4 man rotations, CP games were a thing. Less teams in the leaugue. Overall players were better, the pitching was better, We have SP now that can not pitch past 4 or 5 innings. The game evolves and changes. To compare guys who played in the 60's to guys playing now off a formula is crazy. Some of those guys you mentioned like Zobrist Kinsler Pedroia, Granderson, Holliday, might have not made it to the MLB level and same goes for Brock if he was playing now..
Except you literally can use WAR to compare players from different years, eras, leagues, parks, etc.
Same for wRC+, it’s based on league averages so it’s perfectly acceptable to use between eras.
That’s the beauty of having these formulas, they let us make comparisons that couldn’t be made before.
Also, saying pitchers were better back then is absurd. Pitching has gotten drastically better in recent years. Overall players are better now than they ever have been.
-
@mjfc_363 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
In my opinion, probly the main reason guys don’t steal bases anymore, is the organizations don’t want them to. It’s extremely hard on the body! Jammed fingers, broken fingers, broken wrists, pulled hamstrings, etc. the fact that guys like Brock, Rickey and Tim Raines were able to do it for so long is remarkable.
No lol, it’s because they aren’t worth the risk.
Highly recommend you read this article.
https://batflipsandnerds.com/2018/11/03/analytics-and-its-effects-on-the-mlb-the-stolen-base/
-
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@dbarmonstar said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
No matter what formula you use you can not compare players in different eras. Rules were different, Stadiums or Parks were different, 4 man rotations, CP games were a thing. Less teams in the leaugue. Overall players were better, the pitching was better, We have SP now that can not pitch past 4 or 5 innings. The game evolves and changes. To compare guys who played in the 60's to guys playing now off a formula is crazy. Some of those guys you mentioned like Zobrist Kinsler Pedroia, Granderson, Holliday, might have not made it to the MLB level and same goes for Brock if he was playing now..
Except you literally can use WAR to compare players from different years, eras, leagues, parks, etc.
Same for wRC+, it’s based on league averages so it’s perfectly acceptable to use between eras.
That’s the beauty of having these formulas, they let us make comparisons that couldn’t be made before.
Also, saying pitchers were better back then is absurd. Pitching has gotten drastically better in recent years. Overall players are better now than they ever have been.
No you can not, because the players never actually played in that era, A useless formula to try and compare players in different ERA's is not reality, you use your numbers all you want but unless those players played in those times you really would not know what type of player they would be. WAR means nothing for comparing players from different ERA's. Yes pitching was better, pitching is so watered down now guys can not even go 9 innings the last true 9 inning pitcher was Roy Halliday. If pitching is better now how come teams need so many failed SP to be in the bullpen. 5 6 is probably the avg innings for a pitcher in today's game. CP in the 80's could go 2 or 3 innings now limited to 1. Using WAR to compare is ABSURBED, tell with 100 percent fact that any of those players playing now would have the war they do or would be higher? Wait you can not because WAR in comparison how a player would have played is speculation you can take that to the bank.
-
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@mjfc_363 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
In my opinion, probly the main reason guys don’t steal bases anymore, is the organizations don’t want them to. It’s extremely hard on the body! Jammed fingers, broken fingers, broken wrists, pulled hamstrings, etc. the fact that guys like Brock, Rickey and Tim Raines were able to do it for so long is remarkable.
No lol, it’s because they aren’t worth the risk.
Highly recommend you read this article.
https://batflipsandnerds.com/2018/11/03/analytics-and-its-effects-on-the-mlb-the-stolen-base/
They want the guy coming up to hit a HR or K, teams hardly even hit and run in today's game.
-
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@dbarmonstar said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
No matter what formula you use you can not compare players in different eras. Rules were different, Stadiums or Parks were different, 4 man rotations, CP games were a thing. Less teams in the leaugue. Overall players were better, the pitching was better, We have SP now that can not pitch past 4 or 5 innings. The game evolves and changes. To compare guys who played in the 60's to guys playing now off a formula is crazy. Some of those guys you mentioned like Zobrist Kinsler Pedroia, Granderson, Holliday, might have not made it to the MLB level and same goes for Brock if he was playing now..
Except you literally can use WAR to compare players from different years, eras, leagues, parks, etc.
Same for wRC+, it’s based on league averages so it’s perfectly acceptable to use between eras.
That’s the beauty of having these formulas, they let us make comparisons that couldn’t be made before.
Also, saying pitchers were better back then is absurd. Pitching has gotten drastically better in recent years. Overall players are better now than they ever have been.
Oh and just cause guys can throw harder does not mean pitching is better.
-
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@dbarmonstar said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
No matter what formula you use you can not compare players in different eras. Rules were different, Stadiums or Parks were different, 4 man rotations, CP games were a thing. Less teams in the leaugue. Overall players were better, the pitching was better, We have SP now that can not pitch past 4 or 5 innings. The game evolves and changes. To compare guys who played in the 60's to guys playing now off a formula is crazy. Some of those guys you mentioned like Zobrist Kinsler Pedroia, Granderson, Holliday, might have not made it to the MLB level and same goes for Brock if he was playing now..
Except you literally can use WAR to compare players from different years, eras, leagues, parks, etc.
Same for wRC+, it’s based on league averages so it’s perfectly acceptable to use between eras.
That’s the beauty of having these formulas, they let us make comparisons that couldn’t be made before.
Also, saying pitchers were better back then is absurd. Pitching has gotten drastically better in recent years. Overall players are better now than they ever have been.
Go research in 1968 AL TOP 25 ERA leaders, and then go look at 2019 AL top 25 it is so laughable how bad pitching is today.
-
How and why are you guys measuring the careers of players in the HoF against stats that did not exist until after the player had retired? Would it be fair to evaluate you for job performance against a metric you had no way to know you were going to be measured against? How can one know to elevate one's game above a bar which has not yet been established.
Of course Lou Brock belongs in the HOF because according to the metrics used when he retired and was eventually voted in he was among the best of his era.
Can a person be voted into the HoF based on historical impact upon the game? Some day Billy Beane will get into the HoF for his historical impact on the game from the front office...even if he never wins a World Series.
-
@dbarmonstar said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@dbarmonstar said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
No matter what formula you use you can not compare players in different eras. Rules were different, Stadiums or Parks were different, 4 man rotations, CP games were a thing. Less teams in the leaugue. Overall players were better, the pitching was better, We have SP now that can not pitch past 4 or 5 innings. The game evolves and changes. To compare guys who played in the 60's to guys playing now off a formula is crazy. Some of those guys you mentioned like Zobrist Kinsler Pedroia, Granderson, Holliday, might have not made it to the MLB level and same goes for Brock if he was playing now..
Except you literally can use WAR to compare players from different years, eras, leagues, parks, etc.
Same for wRC+, it’s based on league averages so it’s perfectly acceptable to use between eras.
That’s the beauty of having these formulas, they let us make comparisons that couldn’t be made before.
Also, saying pitchers were better back then is absurd. Pitching has gotten drastically better in recent years. Overall players are better now than they ever have been.
Go research in 1968 AL TOP 25 ERA leaders, and then go look at 2019 AL top 25 it is so laughable how bad pitching is today.
I haven't looked up the stats but what did 69' ERA leaders look like, or even 70'? I know MLB lowered the mounds after 68' because the pitchers were dominating. I wouldn't say pitching is bad today. It's the fact that MLB is more about how hard someone throws rather than hitting spots with movement at 92MPH. I think the strike zone has also dramatically decreased since the 60's. MLB wants more offense with a little bit of pitching.
-
@dbarmonstar said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@mjfc_363 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
In my opinion, probly the main reason guys don’t steal bases anymore, is the organizations don’t want them to. It’s extremely hard on the body! Jammed fingers, broken fingers, broken wrists, pulled hamstrings, etc. the fact that guys like Brock, Rickey and Tim Raines were able to do it for so long is remarkable.
No lol, it’s because they aren’t worth the risk.
Highly recommend you read this article.
https://batflipsandnerds.com/2018/11/03/analytics-and-its-effects-on-the-mlb-the-stolen-base/
They want the guy coming up to hit a HR or K, teams hardly even hit and run in today's game.
I read you’re article. It’s very interesting!!! A little over a month ago MLB Network did a special on the 80’s Redbirds. It was well done!! Smoltz just came right out and said “I know what the numbers say, but as a former pitcher who had to deal with that, I dont know why teams don’t utilize that more.” I believe analytics have value, but I don’t live by them!
The Cards made it to the WS 3 times in 6 years playing that way. That style of play is so much more exciting than watching guys sit back and hit bombs. Just my opinion though. -
@Matt_42187 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@dbarmonstar said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
@dbarmonstar said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
No matter what formula you use you can not compare players in different eras. Rules were different, Stadiums or Parks were different, 4 man rotations, CP games were a thing. Less teams in the leaugue. Overall players were better, the pitching was better, We have SP now that can not pitch past 4 or 5 innings. The game evolves and changes. To compare guys who played in the 60's to guys playing now off a formula is crazy. Some of those guys you mentioned like Zobrist Kinsler Pedroia, Granderson, Holliday, might have not made it to the MLB level and same goes for Brock if he was playing now..
Except you literally can use WAR to compare players from different years, eras, leagues, parks, etc.
Same for wRC+, it’s based on league averages so it’s perfectly acceptable to use between eras.
That’s the beauty of having these formulas, they let us make comparisons that couldn’t be made before.
Also, saying pitchers were better back then is absurd. Pitching has gotten drastically better in recent years. Overall players are better now than they ever have been.
Go research in 1968 AL TOP 25 ERA leaders, and then go look at 2019 AL top 25 it is so laughable how bad pitching is today.
I haven't looked up the stats but what did 69' ERA leaders look like, or even 70'? I know MLB lowered the mounds after 68' because the pitchers were dominating. I wouldn't say pitching is bad today. It's the fact that MLB is more about how hard someone throws rather than hitting spots with movement at 92MPH. I think the strike zone has also dramatically decreased since the 60's. MLB wants more offense with a little bit of pitching.
4 MAN Rotation vs 5, more bullpen arms. More teams is part of that reason, there were 4 teams added in the 90's, that's 20 SP and add 30 more with the 5 man rotations. New ball parks that are hitter friendly. Coors field alone has ruined pitchers. I did say it is not about pitching as much as it is about just throwing Hard. In 1969 it was still a lot better than what it is now. The highest ERA out of the top 25 era in 1969 AL was 3.52. In 2019 AL only 5 were under 3.52.
https://www.baseball-almanac.com/yearly/top25.php?s=ERA&l=AL&y=1969
www.baseball-almanac.com/yearly/top25.php?s=ERA&l=AL&y=2019 -
@Some_Schmuck_22 said in Hall of Fame Asked by Congress Members to Enshrine Curt Flood:
How and why are you guys measuring the careers of players in the HoF against stats that did not exist until after the player had retired? Would it be fair to evaluate you for job performance against a metric you had no way to know you were going to be measured against? How can one know to elevate one's game above a bar which has not yet been established.
Of course Lou Brock belongs in the HOF because according to the metrics used when he retired and was eventually voted in he was among the best of his era.
Can a person be voted into the HoF based on historical impact upon the game? Some day Billy Beane will get into the HoF for his historical impact on the game from the front office...even if he never wins a World Series.
Totally Agree
