Joe Carter most underrated player
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@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@abbyspapa said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
So these managers put someone with a very low average and OBP in the spot where they wanted someone who would drive in the runners that were on base?
Man, these guys had no idea how baseball works!
They wrote a book about it and everything!
https://www.amazon.com/Moneyball-Art-Winning-Unfair-Game/dp/0393324818
Thank god for that! Really helped the A's win all those World Series since it was published in 2004.
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@abbyspapa said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Original_Quad said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@abbyspapa said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Original_Quad said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Okay, but Carter wasn’t even that good by traditional statistics. He was a stat packer. He hit .259 in his career and only led the league once in a major stat (RBI’s). He was a below average defender, and yeah he could hit home runs, but again, he never led the league in that stat. The only reason he accumulated the stats he did was because he avoided injuries and was consistently put in a lineup spot that allowed him to drive in so many runs.
Guess those managers who put him in those lineup spots didn't know much about baseball...because...uh..WAR and stuff. Lol
I’m not saying he wasn’t a good hitter. But he had a low average, very low OBP, and the reason he drove in those runs is because the people in front of him could get on base, therefore, he had many more opportunities to drive them in.
The reason his managers hit him in middle of the order spots is because they based their lineups off the same ideas you’re suggesting.
So these managers put someone with a very low average and OBP in the spot where they wanted someone who would drive in the runners that were on base?
Man, these guys had no idea how baseball works!
Lucky for them it worked out so well!
You can make suboptimal decisions and still succeed sometimes and still succeed, especially when everybody else is making those same suboptimal decisions. But you have a better chance at winning when you optimize those decisions, hence why every team bases their decisions today on WAR and advanced Sabermetrics.
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Joe Carter didn't hit for average, had solid but unspectacular power numbers, didn't draw walks, wasn't a particularly feared baserunner, didn't do anything special with his glove or his arm, and was considerably similar to Ruben Sierra, who I have never seen defended as an underrated great on this board.
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
WAR is terribly defensive heavy I find. You’ll find some players with high WAR that can’t hit a lick
Name 10
Lol I’ll just go with Jays’ outfielders. Carter ranks 13th among all jays outfielders in team history behind guys like:
Jose Cruz Jr.
Otto Velez
Shannon Stewart
Kevin PillarIdk about you but any manager would take Carter ahead of any of these guys
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@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
WAR is terribly defensive heavy I find. You’ll find some players with high WAR that can’t hit a lick
Name 10
Lo
Lol I’ll just go with Jays’ outfielders. Carter ranks 13th among all jays outfielders in team history behind guys like:Jose Cruz Jr.
Otto Velez
Shannon Stewart
Kevin PillarIdk about you but any manager would take Carter ahead of any of these guys
Jose cruz and Carter are both at 19.6 on baseball reference. Cruz had a higher career OPS...... im not even going to bother looking at the rest because you were already off base on the first one.
Carter had a career 306 OBP. He just wasnt that good man.....He has to be one of the worst 5 time all stars ever. He never OPSed above 850.
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
WAR is terribly defensive heavy I find. You’ll find some players with high WAR that can’t hit a lick
Name 10
Lo
Lol I’ll just go with Jays’ outfielders. Carter ranks 13th among all jays outfielders in team history behind guys like:Jose Cruz Jr.
Otto Velez
Shannon Stewart
Kevin PillarIdk about you but any manager would take Carter ahead of any of these guys
Jose cruz and Carter are both at 19.6 on baseball reference. Cruz had a higher career OPS...... im not even going to bother looking at the rest because you were already off base on the first one.
Carter had a career 306 OBP. He just wasnt that good man.....He has to be one of the worst 5 time all stars ever. He never OPSed above 850.
You’re looking at career, I’m talking during the Jays tenure. All these guys are ahead of Carter. Its just to demonstrate how WAR values defense first. No one would take these guys ahead of Carter
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@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Joe Carter didn't hit for average, had solid but unspectacular power numbers, didn't draw walks, wasn't a particularly feared baserunner, didn't do anything special with his glove or his arm, and was considerably similar to Ruben Sierra, who I have never seen defended as an underrated great on this board.
Robin Yount should still be tried for aggravated theft for stealing Reuben's 89 MVP award.
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@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
WAR is terribly defensive heavy I find. You’ll find some players with high WAR that can’t hit a lick
Name 10
Lo
Lol I’ll just go with Jays’ outfielders. Carter ranks 13th among all jays outfielders in team history behind guys like:Jose Cruz Jr.
Otto Velez
Shannon Stewart
Kevin PillarIdk about you but any manager would take Carter ahead of any of these guys
Jose cruz and Carter are both at 19.6 on baseball reference. Cruz had a higher career OPS...... im not even going to bother looking at the rest because you were already off base on the first one.
Carter had a career 306 OBP. He just wasnt that good man.....He has to be one of the worst 5 time all stars ever. He never OPSed above 850.
You’re looking at career, I’m talking during the Jays tenure. All these guys are ahead of Carter. Its just to demonstrate how WAR values defense first
Bruh. What. Why would I just look at their Jays career? Carter and cruz were pretty similar players. Their War reflects that. It doesnt value defense first lmao. It values all things. Hitting. Base running. Fielding. Yelich is a poor fielder. Still posted 7-8 war the past two years. seriously go look at the top WAR leaders the past three years and find me a guy who is only up there because of defense. You wont.
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@notoriousHEB said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Neil Walker has a higher career WAR than Carter. Neil. Walker. In fewer years.
The stats don't lie.
WAR is a terrible stat, it's an estimation with a bunch of assumptions and makes for horrible baseball conversation. It's not meant to be used the way most use it either.
The rest of Joe Carters stats, his actual real production -- very vanilla. Solid player but not great.
One of the all time most clutch moments though.
But overall it's laughable he's a 93 overall.
If WAR is terrible. Why do all the best players have the best WAR?......
“WAR is a terrible stat”
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
It's terrible because there is no standard, every source calculates their WAR differently. WAR attempts to provide a single holistic number to value players based upon more or less the premise that runs created = wins and values players as wins above replacement level. There are an array of assumptions abd positional adjustments assumed by whoever is calculating, these calculations utilize estimates and source-determined adjustments as they see fit.
It is not a factual statistic. It is a mathematical estimation the calculator has leeway to determine as they see fit.
Best part is you cant even total up a team's WAR and compare it to their actual wins, no back-testing!
But back on track it's terrible for baseball conversation because people quote WAR as if that's the single number representing a player and shuts down discussion, rather than adding to it... and baseball is far far more complex than a single figure can capture, especially when that single figure has positional assumptions for adjustments and relies on flawed defensive metrics.
Also you claim the best players have the best WAR... Really? Because according to the fangraphs calculation Lance Lynn was #11 last year and more valuable than both Justin Verlander and Max Scherzer... Hahaha right... And German Marquez and his 4.76 ERA in 176 IP was just as valuable as Luis Castillo and his 3.40 ERA in 190 IP... RIGHT... Oh and Mark Cahna was just as valuable as Freddie Freeman!
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Anyone with 400 career homeruns is pretty good. Carter is a clutch homerun hitter a guy you want batting in the 9th with the game on the line. Hit a homerun to win the world series that's about as clutch as it gets. Hes not trout but to say hes not that good with whatever advanced stat you can find is just dumb.
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“Touch em all Joe” could be a catchy slogan for Biden
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@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Neil Walker has a higher career WAR than Carter. Neil. Walker. In fewer years.
The stats don't lie.
Well, I would argue that it begs the opposite, since it’s a cumulative stat. If it were like QB rating, where its like an avg, I would agree. But Neil Walker being above in a cumulative stat makes no sense. That or his position (2B) is weighed really heavily and they should sort a batting only WAR.
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
WAR is terribly defensive heavy I find. You’ll find some players with high WAR that can’t hit a lick
Name 10
Lo
Lol I’ll just go with Jays’ outfielders. Carter ranks 13th among all jays outfielders in team history behind guys like:Jose Cruz Jr.
Otto Velez
Shannon Stewart
Kevin PillarIdk about you but any manager would take Carter ahead of any of these guys
Jose cruz and Carter are both at 19.6 on baseball reference. Cruz had a higher career OPS...... im not even going to bother looking at the rest because you were already off base on the first one.
Carter had a career 306 OBP. He just wasnt that good man.....He has to be one of the worst 5 time all stars ever. He never OPSed above 850.
You’re looking at career, I’m talking during the Jays tenure. All these guys are ahead of Carter. Its just to demonstrate how WAR values defense first
Bruh. What. Why would I just look at their Jays career? Carter and cruz were pretty similar players. Their War reflects that. It doesnt value defense first lmao. It values all things. Hitting. Base running. Fielding. Yelich is a poor fielder. Still posted 7-8 war the past two years. seriously go look at the top WAR leaders the past three years and find me a guy who is only up there because of defense. You wont.
Cruz was terrible and overrated too
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@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@abbyspapa said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
So these managers put someone with a very low average and OBP in the spot where they wanted someone who would drive in the runners that were on base?
Man, these guys had no idea how baseball works!
They wrote a book about it and everything!
https://www.amazon.com/Moneyball-Art-Winning-Unfair-Game/dp/0393324818
Yeah, people that keep bringing it up always willfully omit 3 things:
- Mulder
- Zito
- Hudson
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@notoriousHEB said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@notoriousHEB said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Neil Walker has a higher career WAR than Carter. Neil. Walker. In fewer years.
The stats don't lie.
WAR is a terrible stat, it's an estimation with a bunch of assumptions and makes for horrible baseball conversation. It's not meant to be used the way most use it either.
The rest of Joe Carters stats, his actual real production -- very vanilla. Solid player but not great.
One of the all time most clutch moments though.
But overall it's laughable he's a 93 overall.
If WAR is terrible. Why do all the best players have the best WAR?......
“WAR is a terrible stat”
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
It's terrible because there is no standard, every source calculates their WAR differently. WAR attempts to provide a single holistic number to value players based upon more or less the premise that runs created = wins and values players as wins above replacement level. There are an array of assumptions abd positional adjustments assumed by whoever is calculating, these calculations utilize estimates and source-determined adjustments as they see fit.
It is not a factual statistic. It is a mathematical estimation the calculator has leeway to determine as they see fit.
Best part is you cant even total up a team's WAR and compare it to their actual wins, no back-testing!
But back on track it's terrible for baseball conversation because people quote WAR as if that's the single number representing a player and shuts down discussion, rather than adding to it... and baseball is far far more complex than a single figure can capture, especially when that single figure has positional assumptions for adjustments and relies on flawed defensive metrics.
Also you claim the best players have the best WAR... Really? Because according to the fangraphs calculation Lance Lynn was #11 last year and more valuable than both Justin Verlander and Max Scherzer... Hahaha right... And German Marquez and his 4.76 ERA in 176 IP was just as valuable as Luis Castillo and his 3.40 ERA in 190 IP... RIGHT... Oh and Mark Cahna was just as valuable as Freddie Freeman!
There are 2 forms of WAR people use. Thats it.
If people use it as an end all stat they just arent smart. Im not saying that. It is however a useful stat to understand a players worth. Im not sure how that can be denied.
Really? Trout belli and bregman werent the top 3 last year? Or is that a mirage? Are ruth bonds and mays not top 3 position players in WAR? Or is that a mirage? So yes i can claim the best players have the best war. Baseball reference is free. Lynn started 6 more games than max. Lynn had a better FIP than JV in a hitters park. So hahaha right.....Outta at least look into things before talking about it. Ill keep going though. Freeman plays the easiest position in the field. They both OPSed about the same. Mark almost had a 400 on base! Hes good! You didnt look much into this did you? You just saw names and ran with it. German and castillio had pretty close FIPs. 3.7. 4.0. Would you like to try again and find better examples? Those werent great.
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@yankblan said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
WAR is terribly defensive heavy I find. You’ll find some players with high WAR that can’t hit a lick
Name 10
Lo
Lol I’ll just go with Jays’ outfielders. Carter ranks 13th among all jays outfielders in team history behind guys like:Jose Cruz Jr.
Otto Velez
Shannon Stewart
Kevin PillarIdk about you but any manager would take Carter ahead of any of these guys
Jose cruz and Carter are both at 19.6 on baseball reference. Cruz had a higher career OPS...... im not even going to bother looking at the rest because you were already off base on the first one.
Carter had a career 306 OBP. He just wasnt that good man.....He has to be one of the worst 5 time all stars ever. He never OPSed above 850.
You’re looking at career, I’m talking during the Jays tenure. All these guys are ahead of Carter. Its just to demonstrate how WAR values defense first
Bruh. What. Why would I just look at their Jays career? Carter and cruz were pretty similar players. Their War reflects that. It doesnt value defense first lmao. It values all things. Hitting. Base running. Fielding. Yelich is a poor fielder. Still posted 7-8 war the past two years. seriously go look at the top WAR leaders the past three years and find me a guy who is only up there because of defense. You wont.
Cruz was terrible and overrated too
Except he had better numbers than carter. So what does that make carter???
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@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
WAR is terribly defensive heavy I find. You’ll find some players with high WAR that can’t hit a lick
There is a dWAR and an oWAR. But honestly in my opinion if you just want offensive production look at OPS. But if you line up all the players stats and sort by oWAR and then sort by OPS its neat identical.
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He literally lived every baseball players dream by hitting a walk off hr to win the world series....does that mean he is the best player ever? No it doesn't but it makes him a legend in my book no matter the stats
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@yankblan said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
WAR is terribly defensive heavy I find. You’ll find some players with high WAR that can’t hit a lick
Name 10
Lo
Lol I’ll just go with Jays’ outfielders. Carter ranks 13th among all jays outfielders in team history behind guys like:Jose Cruz Jr.
Otto Velez
Shannon Stewart
Kevin PillarIdk about you but any manager would take Carter ahead of any of these guys
Jose cruz and Carter are both at 19.6 on baseball reference. Cruz had a higher career OPS...... im not even going to bother looking at the rest because you were already off base on the first one.
Carter had a career 306 OBP. He just wasnt that good man.....He has to be one of the worst 5 time all stars ever. He never OPSed above 850.
You’re looking at career, I’m talking during the Jays tenure. All these guys are ahead of Carter. Its just to demonstrate how WAR values defense first
Bruh. What. Why would I just look at their Jays career? Carter and cruz were pretty similar players. Their War reflects that. It doesnt value defense first lmao. It values all things. Hitting. Base running. Fielding. Yelich is a poor fielder. Still posted 7-8 war the past two years. seriously go look at the top WAR leaders the past three years and find me a guy who is only up there because of defense. You wont.
Cruz was terrible and overrated too
Except he had better numbers than carter. So what does that make carter???
Cruz Jr, started his career in the juiced era, got 30 dingers twice and 70+ RBIs 4 times. He swung for the cameras instead of the game
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@adam_sheffield said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
He literally lived every baseball players dream by hitting a walk off hr to win the world series....does that mean he is the best player ever? No it doesn't but it makes him a legend in my book no matter the stats
He's the professional Warren Morris.
