HOF
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I'm a biased sox fan, but hearing "Ortiz is a know PED user" isn't accurate. His name was on a list that got leaked years after the fact. Also, that whole testing program in 2003 had serious problems. Manfred even said it's possible he wasn't even on that list. But I say let in the juicers like Bonds and Clemens, just mention their histories on their plaques. Same with Pete Rose.
But Scott Rolen and Curt Schilling? Lol, hall of FAME not hall of very good. -
@ndb34_psn said in HOF:
I'm a biased sox fan, but hearing "Ortiz is a know PED user" isn't accurate. His name was on a list that got leaked years after the fact. Also, that whole testing program in 2003 had serious problems. Manfred even said it's possible he wasn't even on that list. But I say let in the juicers like Bonds and Clemens, just mention their histories on their plaques. Same with Pete Rose.
But Scott Rolen and Curt Schilling? Lol, hall of FAME not hall of very good.Then by you’re own words Schilling gets in just because of the [censored] sock. Not to mention his pitching in the playoffs and World Series.
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@ndb34_psn said in HOF:
I'm a biased sox fan, but hearing "Ortiz is a know PED user" isn't accurate. His name was on a list that got leaked years after the fact. Also, that whole testing program in 2003 had serious problems. Manfred even said it's possible he wasn't even on that list. But I say let in the juicers like Bonds and Clemens, just mention their histories on their plaques. Same with Pete Rose.
But Scott Rolen and Curt Schilling? Lol, hall of FAME not hall of very good.I fail to believe he wasn't a PED user. I obviously have no direct knowledge, but I bet everyone was using PEDs back then. If you didn't, you lost your competitive edge and you lost your multi-million dollar contract. Ortiz was a user and abuser. I never liked him anyways but that I'm not saying this because I never like him, he's just part of that generation. If he gets in, Bonds gets in. Bonds was 1,000x a better player was than Ortiz ever ways before he started juicing.
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I agree with most what you said, except for "Ortiz was a user and abuser". What are you basing that on? The era? I'm inclined to believe he was using, but also acknowledge he has plausible deniability. So if we accept that, he doesn't really belong in the same group as Bonds and Clemens. Same with Griffey Jr. There hasn't been even a whisper to Griffey using, but he was part of that era so he probably was. That logic is flimsy at best, but it's all we got. But again, I do agree that Bonds and Clemens should be in. But the Hall should acknowledge that era for what it was and their role in it.
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@raesone_psn said in HOF:
@texas10pt_psn said in HOF:
@raesone_psn said in HOF:
The hall is nothing more than a biased joke at this point. How can you not put Pete Rose, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens in? You can make all the arguments against them in the world, but there are guys with similar questionable backgrounds who did make it and their legacy was nowhere close to that of these 3 guys. Arguably the best pure hitter of all time, the guy who got intentionally walked with the bases loaded (let that sink in for a moment) and the guy who won 7 CY Young awards. They don't deserve to be in the hall? It's laughable honestly and the hypocrisy is even worse.
The same morons who kept Bonds and Clemens out of the HOF are the same knuckleheads who were voting them in as MVP's and Cy Young awards. If they thought they were using PED's then, why give them the awards? And talk about integrity, if you are a writer and turn in an empty ballet you should be banned from voting for life. So many things wrong now.
Imo it shouldn't even be the writers in the first place who cast the votes. Let baseball executives and fans vote. These writers have way too much power in this process.
Fans vote?!?! No thank you. We have popularity contests already in the major sports, they are called All Star Starting Lineups.
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@ncstatehokie_mlbts said in HOF:
@raesone_psn said in HOF:
@texas10pt_psn said in HOF:
@raesone_psn said in HOF:
The hall is nothing more than a biased joke at this point. How can you not put Pete Rose, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens in? You can make all the arguments against them in the world, but there are guys with similar questionable backgrounds who did make it and their legacy was nowhere close to that of these 3 guys. Arguably the best pure hitter of all time, the guy who got intentionally walked with the bases loaded (let that sink in for a moment) and the guy who won 7 CY Young awards. They don't deserve to be in the hall? It's laughable honestly and the hypocrisy is even worse.
The same morons who kept Bonds and Clemens out of the HOF are the same knuckleheads who were voting them in as MVP's and Cy Young awards. If they thought they were using PED's then, why give them the awards? And talk about integrity, if you are a writer and turn in an empty ballet you should be banned from voting for life. So many things wrong now.
Imo it shouldn't even be the writers in the first place who cast the votes. Let baseball executives and fans vote. These writers have way too much power in this process.
Fans vote?!?! No thank you. We have popularity contests already in the major sports, they are called All Star Starting Lineups.
Yeah on second thought fan vote wouldn't be a good idea I agree.
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@ndb34_psn said in HOF:
I'm a biased sox fan, but hearing "Ortiz is a know PED user" isn't accurate. His name was on a list that got leaked years after the fact. Also, that whole testing program in 2003 had serious problems. Manfred even said it's possible he wasn't even on that list. But I say let in the juicers like Bonds and Clemens, just mention their histories on their plaques. Same with Pete Rose.
But Scott Rolen and Curt Schilling? Lol, hall of FAME not hall of very good.Rolen is by almost every metric a top 10 3rd baseman of all time. If Schilling wasn't a scumbag he would have been first ballot HOF. Him and Clemens are the only 2 members of the 3000 strikeout club to not be in. (Besides Sabathia who isn't on the Ballot yet and Verlander/Scherzer)
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@raesone_psn said in HOF:
The hall is nothing more than a biased joke at this point. How can you not put Pete Rose, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens in?
Pete Rose is banned from baseball. You can't lay that one at the feet of the HOF voters.
The other two? Who knows. I don't know if there are degrees of guilt and suspicion that the writers bake into their decision.
At this point I kind of respect McGwire for coming out and admitting it, realizing that it would disqualify him from the Hall when he did. He went so far as to call Maris' wife and apologize and said that Maris' sons had every right to still believe that 61 was the legitimate record (this all happened before Bonds).
Back to the HOF. Anytime you have a small group of people deciding on the HOF inductees then bias will always sneak in to the picture. Another example of that is the Rock and Roll Hall Of Fame. In the case of baseball, many of the BBWOA membership still skews on the older end of the spectrum and seem less forgiving.
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@ndb34_psn said in HOF:
I'm a biased sox fan, but hearing "Ortiz is a know PED user" isn't accurate. His name was on a list that got leaked years after the fact. Also, that whole testing program in 2003 had serious problems. Manfred even said it's possible he wasn't even on that list. But I say let in the juicers like Bonds and Clemens, just mention their histories on their plaques. Same with Pete Rose.
But Scott Rolen and Curt Schilling? Lol, hall of FAME not hall of very good.Alright I can admit when I'm wrong and I appear to be wrong here, known steroid used may have been to strong of a phrase. I apologize for that.
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So, do we get a David Ortiz HOF card to hold us until next game? Give him at least 80 speed
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@thegoaler_psn said in HOF:
So, do we get a David Ortiz HOF card to hold us until next game? Give him at least 80 speed
And can we get an animation of him breaking the bullpen phone in the dugout when he strikes out?
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@samguenther1987 said in HOF:
@ndb34_psn said in HOF:
I'm a biased sox fan, but hearing "Ortiz is a know PED user" isn't accurate. His name was on a list that got leaked years after the fact. Also, that whole testing program in 2003 had serious problems. Manfred even said it's possible he wasn't even on that list. But I say let in the juicers like Bonds and Clemens, just mention their histories on their plaques. Same with Pete Rose.
But Scott Rolen and Curt Schilling? Lol, hall of FAME not hall of very good.Alright I can admit when I'm wrong and I appear to be wrong here, known steroid used may have been to strong of a phrase. I apologize for that.
All good man
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@raylewissb47_psn said in HOF:
@thegoaler_psn said in HOF:
So, do we get a David Ortiz HOF card to hold us until next game? Give him at least 80 speed
And can we get an animation of him breaking the bullpen phone in the dugout when he strikes out?
Hahaha, but only if we can get Pedro duct taped to a pole in the dugout.
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@ndb34_psn said in HOF:
I'm a biased sox fan, but hearing "Ortiz is a know PED user" isn't accurate. His name was on a list that got leaked years after the fact. Also, that whole testing program in 2003 had serious problems. Manfred even said it's possible he wasn't even on that list. But I say let in the juicers like Bonds and Clemens, just mention their histories on their plaques. Same with Pete Rose.
But Scott Rolen and Curt Schilling? Lol, hall of FAME not hall of very good.So like, you haven’t even looked at Rolen’s stats have you? His 69.9 career fWAR is just slightly below Santo’s 70.9 and Cabrera’s 70.3, while it’s higher than Molitor’s 67.7 and Killebrew’s 66.1
It’s also slightly higher than Gary Carter’s 69.4, Pudge’s 69.2, Thome’s 69.1, Walker’s 68.7, Fisk’s 68.3, Whitaker’s 68.1, Larkin’s 67.0, Yount’s 66.5, Manny Ramirez’s 66.4, Gwynn’s 65.0, etc., and way higher than Ortiz’s 51.0
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@mjfc_363_psn said in HOF:
Congrats to Ortiz. [censored] good hitter.
You want to impress me - get a freeze off against yourself...lol
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@jogger171717_psn said in HOF:
@ndb34_psn said in HOF:
I'm a biased sox fan, but hearing "Ortiz is a know PED user" isn't accurate. His name was on a list that got leaked years after the fact. Also, that whole testing program in 2003 had serious problems. Manfred even said it's possible he wasn't even on that list. But I say let in the juicers like Bonds and Clemens, just mention their histories on their plaques. Same with Pete Rose.
But Scott Rolen and Curt Schilling? Lol, hall of FAME not hall of very good.So like, you haven’t even looked at Rolen’s stats have you? His 69.9 career fWAR is just slightly below Santo’s 70.9 and Cabrera’s 70.3, while it’s higher than Molitor’s 67.7 and Killebrew’s 66.1
It’s also slightly higher than Gary Carter’s 69.4, Pudge’s 69.2, Thome’s 69.1, Walker’s 68.7, Fisk’s 68.3, Whitaker’s 68.1, Larkin’s 67.0, Yount’s 66.5, Manny Ramirez’s 66.4, Gwynn’s 65.0, etc., and way higher than Ortiz’s 51.0
Rolen is a clear example that a well rounded baseball player is incredibly valuable. No, his numbers weren't always flashy but he's one of the greatest defensive 3B in history with plenty of offense, great base running and just steady production.
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@jogger171717_psn said in HOF:
@ndb34_psn said in HOF:
I'm a biased sox fan, but hearing "Ortiz is a know PED user" isn't accurate. His name was on a list that got leaked years after the fact. Also, that whole testing program in 2003 had serious problems. Manfred even said it's possible he wasn't even on that list. But I say let in the juicers like Bonds and Clemens, just mention their histories on their plaques. Same with Pete Rose.
But Scott Rolen and Curt Schilling? Lol, hall of FAME not hall of very good.So like, you haven’t even looked at Rolen’s stats have you? His 69.9 career fWAR is just slightly below Santo’s 70.9 and Cabrera’s 70.3, while it’s higher than Molitor’s 67.7 and Killebrew’s 66.1
It’s also slightly higher than Gary Carter’s 69.4, Pudge’s 69.2, Thome’s 69.1, Walker’s 68.7, Fisk’s 68.3, Whitaker’s 68.1, Larkin’s 67.0, Yount’s 66.5, Manny Ramirez’s 66.4, Gwynn’s 65.0, etc., and way higher than Ortiz’s 51.0
I have looked at Rolen's stats and they are all very good. Career .280ish hitter not bad. Career OBP is very good, decent power numbers, great fielder, rookie of the year etc. You lose me at WAR. I get it, WAR is a valuable stat and now it's being used in collective bargaining and blah blah blah. Stats like that are fun if you're into that sort of deep analysis, but for the rest of us who just like watching games and seeing simple stats, WAR is a bit much. And on top of that there are multiple versions of WAR? Popsicle headache.
There will always be debates and statistical comparisons with who should get in versus who is already in. I dunno, for me Rolen is close but just not enough for the hall. -
@ndb34_psn said in HOF:
@jogger171717_psn said in HOF:
@ndb34_psn said in HOF:
I'm a biased sox fan, but hearing "Ortiz is a know PED user" isn't accurate. His name was on a list that got leaked years after the fact. Also, that whole testing program in 2003 had serious problems. Manfred even said it's possible he wasn't even on that list. But I say let in the juicers like Bonds and Clemens, just mention their histories on their plaques. Same with Pete Rose.
But Scott Rolen and Curt Schilling? Lol, hall of FAME not hall of very good.So like, you haven’t even looked at Rolen’s stats have you? His 69.9 career fWAR is just slightly below Santo’s 70.9 and Cabrera’s 70.3, while it’s higher than Molitor’s 67.7 and Killebrew’s 66.1
It’s also slightly higher than Gary Carter’s 69.4, Pudge’s 69.2, Thome’s 69.1, Walker’s 68.7, Fisk’s 68.3, Whitaker’s 68.1, Larkin’s 67.0, Yount’s 66.5, Manny Ramirez’s 66.4, Gwynn’s 65.0, etc., and way higher than Ortiz’s 51.0
I have looked at Rolen's stats and they are all very good. Career .280ish hitter not bad. Career OBP is very good, decent power numbers, great fielder, rookie of the year etc. You lose me at WAR. I get it, WAR is a valuable stat and now it's being used in collective bargaining and blah blah blah. Stats like that are fun if you're into that sort of deep analysis, but for the rest of us who just like watching games and seeing simple stats, WAR is a bit much. And on top of that there are multiple versions of WAR? Popsicle headache.
There will always be debates and statistical comparisons with who should get in versus who is already in. I dunno, for me Rolen is close but just not enough for the hall.I understand where you’re coming from, but it’s not as complicated as you think it is. The two main types of WAR are fWAR and bWAR (some people call it rWAR). Fangraphs uses fWAR (hence the “f”) and Baseball Reference uses bWAR (hence the “b”). The only difference is the stats the make up each formula. Most people that are really into stats will say fWAR is better for position players, and it’s also the version that MLB is proposing to use in arbitration hearings.
Basically, it takes offense, defense, and baserunning (to a lesser extent) and combines them into a single number. Base stats like AVG and OBP are already included in it in the form of wRC+ for fWAR. This allows us to see a player’s total value to his team, regardless of his strengths. A pure hitter that’s terrible on defense can put up the same amount of value as a below average hitter with fantastic defense. There’s more to it, so I highly suggest reading some articles that explain everything better. Fangraphs has plenty on their site. The fact of the matter is that 69.9 fWAR should be a guaranteed ticket to the HoF based on other players that are already in. As of now, Rolen is the 11th best 3B of all time by fWAR. If being the 11th best at a position in a sport that’s been around for well over a century and has had over 1500 thirdbasemen isn’t enough to get into the hall of fame, I don’t know what is.
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I hear ya, we'll just agree to disagree on WAR and Rolen. One more point about Rolen: For MVP voting he only cracked the top 5 once, and received any votes at all only 4 times. That doesn't feel like a hall of famer to me. But I digress, fun debate though.
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The HOF should be about one thing: How the player performed on the field.
MLB created the unfair competitive environment by creating and tolerating the steroid culture in their sport. The players should not be punished for wanting to even the playing field. Besides, a lot of these players were HOF potential before their alleged steroid use.
In addition, Pete Rose is the all-time Hits leader and played the game with unparalleled passion. His "alleged" gambling has NOTHING to do with his greatness. it is pathetic for MLB to cancel him out -- hypocrites they are.
