99 Posey Incoming
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@mrad2010_xbl said in 99 Posey Incoming:
I talked to a baseball scout once that said Posey was the best high school baseball player he had ever seen. He’s the type of catcher to make all his pitchers better by calling the right pitchers and managing the game. Sure shot hall of famer in my book.
@mrad2010_xbl said in 99 Posey Incoming:
I talked to a baseball scout once that said Posey was the best high school baseball player he had ever seen. He’s the type of catcher to make all his pitchers better by calling the right pitchers and managing the game. Sure shot hall of famer in my book.
Was Clint Eastwood, Amy Adams, or Justin Timberlake the scout by any chance
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@gradekthebard said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@quinnymcquinn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
Probably a silly question but is he a hall of famer?
So 1-MVP, 3-WS, ROTY, 7x AS. From a award perspective I’d say yes. From a statistical perspective it’s very borderline.
I give you Dale Murphy. On the other hand, Harold Baines got in.
Very true sir. Which reminds me, where is our Dale Murphy card this year? Yes I know. They probably didn’t renew his rights.
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@quinnymcquinn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
Probably a silly question but is he a hall of famer?
So 1-MVP, 3-WS, ROTY, 7x AS. From a award perspective I’d say yes. From a statistical perspective it’s very borderline.
If people think Molina will be in the HoF, then Posey is 100% guaranteed to get in.
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What the hell? How many catchers have played and finished with 150+ HR and hit .300+? All hall of farmers, that's who. Statistically he's a shoe in for catcher.
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I cannot wait for this program
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@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@quinnymcquinn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
Probably a silly question but is he a hall of famer?
So 1-MVP, 3-WS, ROTY, 7x AS. From a award perspective I’d say yes. From a statistical perspective it’s very borderline.
If people think Molina will be in the HoF, then Posey is 100% guaranteed to get in.
Ah the Posey v. Molina debate.
Personally I agree though I definitely think Molina has overall the better chance because of his defense and longevity. But they are extremely close in other areas.
War:
Posey: 44.1
Yadi: 42. 8World championships:
Posey: 3
Molina: 2MVP:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 0ROTY:
Posey:1
Yadi:0Those all favor Posey
Here is what favors Molina
Gold Gloves:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 9Hits:
Posey: 1,500
Molina: 2,112 (and counting)HRs:
Posey: 158
Yadi: 171 (and counting)Games:
Posey: 1,371
Yadi: 2,146 (and counting)RBIs:
Posey: 729
Yadi: 998 (and counting)Posey was like a Koufax of catchers in that he was elite for a short period of time and also had some large injuries. But there was no denying his impact and I think he will get in. But Yadi's longevity and defense make him a shoe in.
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@nymets1987_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
I cannot wait for this program
So you think there will be a program just for Posey like they did with Scherzer and Miggy? That would be rad.
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@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@quinnymcquinn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
Probably a silly question but is he a hall of famer?
So 1-MVP, 3-WS, ROTY, 7x AS. From a award perspective I’d say yes. From a statistical perspective it’s very borderline.
If people think Molina will be in the HoF, then Posey is 100% guaranteed to get in.
Ah the Posey v. Molina debate.
Personally I agree though I definitely think Molina has overall the better chance because of his defense and longevity. But they are extremely close in other areas.
War:
Posey: 44.1
Yadi: 42. 8World championships:
Posey: 3
Molina: 2MVP:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 0ROTY:
Posey:1
Yadi:0Those all favor Posey
Here is what favors Molina
Gold Gloves:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 9Hits:
Posey: 1,500
Molina: 2,112 (and counting)HRs:
Posey: 158
Yadi: 171 (and counting)Games:
Posey: 1,371
Yadi: 2,146 (and counting)RBIs:
Posey: 729
Yadi: 998 (and counting)Posey was like a Koufax of catchers in that he was elite for a short period of time and also had some large injuries. But there was no denying his impact and I think he will get in. But Yadi's longevity and defense make him a shoe in.
They’re very different players for sure, but I think Posey putting up 57.8 fWAR from 2010-2021 (57.6 if you add in 2009) is much more impressive than Molina’s 55.6 fWAR from 2004-21. Posey being the all-around better player makes him more of a guarantee than Molina is. Posey’s career offensive rate stats (not counting stats lmao) are far and away better than Molina’s, while still being a fantastic defensive catcher for most of his career as well. They’ll both probably make it in though.
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Before we discuss Posey vs Molina, can we see if Joe Mauer gets in first? If it’s tough when he is eligible that might set the table for Posey and Molina’s hall cases.
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@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@quinnymcquinn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
Probably a silly question but is he a hall of famer?
So 1-MVP, 3-WS, ROTY, 7x AS. From a award perspective I’d say yes. From a statistical perspective it’s very borderline.
If people think Molina will be in the HoF, then Posey is 100% guaranteed to get in.
Ah the Posey v. Molina debate.
Personally I agree though I definitely think Molina has overall the better chance because of his defense and longevity. But they are extremely close in other areas.
War:
Posey: 44.1
Yadi: 42. 8World championships:
Posey: 3
Molina: 2MVP:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 0ROTY:
Posey:1
Yadi:0Those all favor Posey
Here is what favors Molina
Gold Gloves:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 9Hits:
Posey: 1,500
Molina: 2,112 (and counting)HRs:
Posey: 158
Yadi: 171 (and counting)Games:
Posey: 1,371
Yadi: 2,146 (and counting)RBIs:
Posey: 729
Yadi: 998 (and counting)Posey was like a Koufax of catchers in that he was elite for a short period of time and also had some large injuries. But there was no denying his impact and I think he will get in. But Yadi's longevity and defense make him a shoe in.
For what it’s worth he’s nominated for a Silver Slugger this year.
And any HOF debate always regurgitates the criteria for getting in. Personally I think it’s should be more open.
And of course Posey should be a shoe-in. But then you have guys like Scoscia who are never mentioned.
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@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
World championships:
Posey: 3
Molina: 2I personally don't think that should be a factor as WS Championships are a team accomplishment. But that is just my opinion.
In the end it is up to the writers who vote on the ballots. While offensive stats and awards are good indicators they are not the only criteria. Ozzie Smith got inducted almost entirely based on his glove.
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@quinnymcquinn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
Before we discuss Posey vs Molina, can we see if Joe Mauer gets in first? If it’s tough when he is eligible that might set the table for Posey and Molina’s hall cases.
Mauer basically was Posey without the accolades. So if Mauer doesnt get in, and he shouldnt, I still think Posey could easily. Honestly though Poseys short career might hurt him. But catchers have an intangible that other players dont. The whole calling games and framing pitch type stuff that dont have stats. Posey also had that over Mauer.
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@mottledaxe86_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@mrad2010_xbl said in 99 Posey Incoming:
I talked to a baseball scout once that said Posey was the best high school baseball player he had ever seen. He’s the type of catcher to make all his pitchers better by calling the right pitchers and managing the game. Sure shot hall of famer in my book.
@mrad2010_xbl said in 99 Posey Incoming:
I talked to a baseball scout once that said Posey was the best high school baseball player he had ever seen. He’s the type of catcher to make all his pitchers better by calling the right pitchers and managing the game. Sure shot hall of famer in my book.
Was Clint Eastwood, Amy Adams, or Justin Timberlake the scout by any chance
Listen man. I’m not a Giants fan. I’m not even really a Posey fan. I’m an Orioles fan. That being said I agreed with that man and think Posey is a legitimate hall of famer. Also wasn’t Posey a inning boss and had a couple 99 cards already? -
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@quinnymcquinn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
Probably a silly question but is he a hall of famer?
So 1-MVP, 3-WS, ROTY, 7x AS. From a award perspective I’d say yes. From a statistical perspective it’s very borderline.
If people think Molina will be in the HoF, then Posey is 100% guaranteed to get in.
Ah the Posey v. Molina debate.
Personally I agree though I definitely think Molina has overall the better chance because of his defense and longevity. But they are extremely close in other areas.
War:
Posey: 44.1
Yadi: 42. 8World championships:
Posey: 3
Molina: 2MVP:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 0ROTY:
Posey:1
Yadi:0Those all favor Posey
Here is what favors Molina
Gold Gloves:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 9Hits:
Posey: 1,500
Molina: 2,112 (and counting)HRs:
Posey: 158
Yadi: 171 (and counting)Games:
Posey: 1,371
Yadi: 2,146 (and counting)RBIs:
Posey: 729
Yadi: 998 (and counting)Posey was like a Koufax of catchers in that he was elite for a short period of time and also had some large injuries. But there was no denying his impact and I think he will get in. But Yadi's longevity and defense make him a shoe in.
They’re very different players for sure, but I think Posey putting up 57.8 fWAR from 2010-2021 (57.6 if you add in 2009) is much more impressive than Molina’s 55.6 fWAR from 2004-21. Posey being the all-around better player makes him more of a guarantee than Molina is. Posey’s career offensive rate stats (not counting stats lmao) are far and away better than Molina’s, while still being a fantastic defensive catcher for most of his career as well. They’ll both probably make it in though.
I agree. But I'm an old head and counting stats matter. Being on the field matters. And consistently producing over time matters. I freely admit that stats like RBIs are not the amazing tell all that older fans think they are, it involves having guys on base in front of you, how you are pitched to based on who is behind you etc.
That said, the prime objective on offense is to score. And when you are responsible for doing that or hitting the ball so others do, it matters.
Now, I really only went into that because of the (not counting stats lmao) comment. They are not as archaic as some believe. They are not the best benchmark for success but they are a good benchmark.
Molina's longevity and durability are reflected in his games played and he has perfectly respectable numbers from a defense first catcher. But 9 gold gloves to 1 in the most important defensive position on the field is a big deal.
I'm really not knocking Posey, he is certainly the better hitter. Had he been healthy, not had a catastrophic broken leg which has haunted him year after year, he would have been a GOAT catcher candidate.
In closing, I think they should both get in. But if I were a pitcher, I'd rather face Molina than Posey, and I'd rather he call my game from begind the plate as well.
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@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@quinnymcquinn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
Probably a silly question but is he a hall of famer?
So 1-MVP, 3-WS, ROTY, 7x AS. From a award perspective I’d say yes. From a statistical perspective it’s very borderline.
If people think Molina will be in the HoF, then Posey is 100% guaranteed to get in.
Ah the Posey v. Molina debate.
Personally I agree though I definitely think Molina has overall the better chance because of his defense and longevity. But they are extremely close in other areas.
War:
Posey: 44.1
Yadi: 42. 8World championships:
Posey: 3
Molina: 2MVP:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 0ROTY:
Posey:1
Yadi:0Those all favor Posey
Here is what favors Molina
Gold Gloves:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 9Hits:
Posey: 1,500
Molina: 2,112 (and counting)HRs:
Posey: 158
Yadi: 171 (and counting)Games:
Posey: 1,371
Yadi: 2,146 (and counting)RBIs:
Posey: 729
Yadi: 998 (and counting)Posey was like a Koufax of catchers in that he was elite for a short period of time and also had some large injuries. But there was no denying his impact and I think he will get in. But Yadi's longevity and defense make him a shoe in.
They’re very different players for sure, but I think Posey putting up 57.8 fWAR from 2010-2021 (57.6 if you add in 2009) is much more impressive than Molina’s 55.6 fWAR from 2004-21. Posey being the all-around better player makes him more of a guarantee than Molina is. Posey’s career offensive rate stats (not counting stats lmao) are far and away better than Molina’s, while still being a fantastic defensive catcher for most of his career as well. They’ll both probably make it in though.
I agree. But I'm an old head and counting stats matter. Being on the field matters. And consistently producing over time matters. I freely admit that stats like RBIs are not the amazing tell all that older fans think they are, it involves having guys on base in front of you, how you are pitched to based in who is behind you etc.
That said, the prime objective on offense is to score. And when you are responsible for doing that or hitting the ball so others do, it matters.
Now, I really only went into that because of the (not counting stats lmao) comment. They are not as archaic as some believe. They are not the best benchmark for success but the are a good benchmark.
Molinas longevity and durability are reflected in his games played and that he has perfectly respectable numbers from a defense first catcher. But 9 gold gloves to 1 in the most important defensive position on the field is a big deal.
I'm really not knocking Posey, he is certainly the better hitter. Had he been healthy, not had a catastrophic broken leg which has haunted him year after year, he would have been a GOAT catcher candidate.
In closing, I think they should both get in. But if I were a pitcher, I'd rather face Molina than Posey, and I'd rather pitch to him as well.
Well said.
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@dolenz_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
World championships:
Posey: 3
Molina: 2I personally don't think that should be a factor as WS Championships are a team accomplishment. But that is just my opinion.
In the end it is up to the writers who vote on the ballots. While offensive stats and awards are good indicators they are not the only criteria. Ozzie Smith got inducted almost entirely based on his glove.
I definitely don't think it should hinder a guy but I can help. Championships are less crucial in baseball then as a quarterback in football or a top star in basketball. When evaluating the best quarterback, number of championships always cone into play. Sane with the LeBron v Jordan debate. Baseball because a guy like Trout can easily a hall of famer GOAT candidate and never sniff the series because of the nature of baseball, 1 player simply can't effect the season enough on his own.
For Posey and Molina though, I think it helps to highlight their accomplishments. Posey had a massive impact in a short period of time and helped bring 3 championships out of nowhere to a franchise who hadn't won in 60+ years. They definitely push the needle.
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@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@dolenz_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
World championships:
Posey: 3
Molina: 2I personally don't think that should be a factor as WS Championships are a team accomplishment. But that is just my opinion.
In the end it is up to the writers who vote on the ballots. While offensive stats and awards are good indicators they are not the only criteria. Ozzie Smith got inducted almost entirely based on his glove.
I definitely don't think it should hinder a guy but I can help. Championships are less crucial in baseball then as a quarterback in football or a top star in basketball. When evaluating the best quarterback, number of championships always cone into play. Sane with the LeBron v Jordan debate. Baseball because a guy like Trout can easily a hall of famer GOAT candidate and never sniff the series because of the nature of baseball, 1 player simply can't effect the season enough on his own.
For Posey and Molina though, I think it helps to highlight their accomplishments. Posey had a massive impact in a short period of time and helped bring 3 championships out of nowhere to a franchise who hadn't won in 60+ years. They definitely push the needle.
True.
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@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@quinnymcquinn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
Probably a silly question but is he a hall of famer?
So 1-MVP, 3-WS, ROTY, 7x AS. From a award perspective I’d say yes. From a statistical perspective it’s very borderline.
If people think Molina will be in the HoF, then Posey is 100% guaranteed to get in.
Ah the Posey v. Molina debate.
Personally I agree though I definitely think Molina has overall the better chance because of his defense and longevity. But they are extremely close in other areas.
War:
Posey: 44.1
Yadi: 42. 8World championships:
Posey: 3
Molina: 2MVP:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 0ROTY:
Posey:1
Yadi:0Those all favor Posey
Here is what favors Molina
Gold Gloves:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 9Hits:
Posey: 1,500
Molina: 2,112 (and counting)HRs:
Posey: 158
Yadi: 171 (and counting)Games:
Posey: 1,371
Yadi: 2,146 (and counting)RBIs:
Posey: 729
Yadi: 998 (and counting)Posey was like a Koufax of catchers in that he was elite for a short period of time and also had some large injuries. But there was no denying his impact and I think he will get in. But Yadi's longevity and defense make him a shoe in.
They’re very different players for sure, but I think Posey putting up 57.8 fWAR from 2010-2021 (57.6 if you add in 2009) is much more impressive than Molina’s 55.6 fWAR from 2004-21. Posey being the all-around better player makes him more of a guarantee than Molina is. Posey’s career offensive rate stats (not counting stats lmao) are far and away better than Molina’s, while still being a fantastic defensive catcher for most of his career as well. They’ll both probably make it in though.
I agree. But I'm an old head and counting stats matter. Being on the field matters. And consistently producing over time matters. I freely admit that stats like RBIs are not the amazing tell all that older fans think they are, it involves having guys on base in front of you, how you are pitched to based on who is behind you etc.
That said, the prime objective on offense is to score. And when you are responsible for doing that or hitting the ball so others do, it matters.
Now, I really only went into that because of the (not counting stats lmao) comment. They are not as archaic as some believe. They are not the best benchmark for success but they are a good benchmark.
Molina's longevity and durability are reflected in his games played and he has perfectly respectable numbers from a defense first catcher. But 9 gold gloves to 1 in the most important defensive position on the field is a big deal.
I'm really not knocking Posey, he is certainly the better hitter. Had he been healthy, not had a catastrophic broken leg which has haunted him year after year, he would have been a GOAT catcher candidate.
In closing, I think they should both get in. But if I were a pitcher, I'd rather face Molina than Posey, and I'd rather he call my game from begind the plate as well.
The issue with you using tally stats in this situation is the fact that Molina has played so many more games than Posey. It’s only natural that his tally stats are going to be higher. You have to look at rate stats to get an accurate comparison of how good their careers have been. It has nothing to do with RBIs being a useless stat for evaluating a hitter (which they are).
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@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@quinnymcquinn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
Probably a silly question but is he a hall of famer?
So 1-MVP, 3-WS, ROTY, 7x AS. From a award perspective I’d say yes. From a statistical perspective it’s very borderline.
If people think Molina will be in the HoF, then Posey is 100% guaranteed to get in.
Ah the Posey v. Molina debate.
Personally I agree though I definitely think Molina has overall the better chance because of his defense and longevity. But they are extremely close in other areas.
War:
Posey: 44.1
Yadi: 42. 8World championships:
Posey: 3
Molina: 2MVP:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 0ROTY:
Posey:1
Yadi:0Those all favor Posey
Here is what favors Molina
Gold Gloves:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 9Hits:
Posey: 1,500
Molina: 2,112 (and counting)HRs:
Posey: 158
Yadi: 171 (and counting)Games:
Posey: 1,371
Yadi: 2,146 (and counting)RBIs:
Posey: 729
Yadi: 998 (and counting)Posey was like a Koufax of catchers in that he was elite for a short period of time and also had some large injuries. But there was no denying his impact and I think he will get in. But Yadi's longevity and defense make him a shoe in.
They’re very different players for sure, but I think Posey putting up 57.8 fWAR from 2010-2021 (57.6 if you add in 2009) is much more impressive than Molina’s 55.6 fWAR from 2004-21. Posey being the all-around better player makes him more of a guarantee than Molina is. Posey’s career offensive rate stats (not counting stats lmao) are far and away better than Molina’s, while still being a fantastic defensive catcher for most of his career as well. They’ll both probably make it in though.
I agree. But I'm an old head and counting stats matter. Being on the field matters. And consistently producing over time matters. I freely admit that stats like RBIs are not the amazing tell all that older fans think they are, it involves having guys on base in front of you, how you are pitched to based on who is behind you etc.
That said, the prime objective on offense is to score. And when you are responsible for doing that or hitting the ball so others do, it matters.
Now, I really only went into that because of the (not counting stats lmao) comment. They are not as archaic as some believe. They are not the best benchmark for success but they are a good benchmark.
Molina's longevity and durability are reflected in his games played and he has perfectly respectable numbers from a defense first catcher. But 9 gold gloves to 1 in the most important defensive position on the field is a big deal.
I'm really not knocking Posey, he is certainly the better hitter. Had he been healthy, not had a catastrophic broken leg which has haunted him year after year, he would have been a GOAT catcher candidate.
In closing, I think they should both get in. But if I were a pitcher, I'd rather face Molina than Posey, and I'd rather he call my game from begind the plate as well.
The issue with you using tally stats in this situation is the fact that Molina has played so many more games than Posey. It’s only natural that his tally stats are going to be higher. You have to look at rate stats to get an accurate comparison of how good their careers have been. It has nothing to do with RBIs being a useless stat for evaluating a hitter (which they are).
I agree (not with the rbi part). But with the comparing the two. Yes, Posey’s rate stats are better which is why I conceded that he is the better hitter. But getting hurt unfortunately effects your standing. This is why guys like Mark Prior, Mark Mulder, Nomar etc aren't in higher regard, they couldn't stay healthy. Now we have guys like Syndagaard and Straburg facing the same issue.
Posey is the better hitter, Molina is not only a better fielder, but one of the 5 best fielding catchers of the last 60 years if not ever.
And RBIs are not a useless stat. If there is a runner on base, give me the guy who gets a hit, puts the ball in play without a double play or even walks in a run. It's not the best stat. And as a comparative tool, stats like wRC+ are far better. But it has it's place.
However, I brought the RBI thing up as a seperate argument and I do agree that it's unfair to compare the two based on RBIs or Hits. I just have to comment when someone knocks the basics hahaha.
Funny enough, we're not really in disagreement. I think Molina and Posey are both greats, HOFers for sure. But to be able to stay on the field for 18 years as a catcher and still play at an elite level (for most of those years) deserves kudos.
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@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@quinnymcquinn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
Probably a silly question but is he a hall of famer?
So 1-MVP, 3-WS, ROTY, 7x AS. From a award perspective I’d say yes. From a statistical perspective it’s very borderline.
If people think Molina will be in the HoF, then Posey is 100% guaranteed to get in.
Ah the Posey v. Molina debate.
Personally I agree though I definitely think Molina has overall the better chance because of his defense and longevity. But they are extremely close in other areas.
War:
Posey: 44.1
Yadi: 42. 8World championships:
Posey: 3
Molina: 2MVP:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 0ROTY:
Posey:1
Yadi:0Those all favor Posey
Here is what favors Molina
Gold Gloves:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 9Hits:
Posey: 1,500
Molina: 2,112 (and counting)HRs:
Posey: 158
Yadi: 171 (and counting)Games:
Posey: 1,371
Yadi: 2,146 (and counting)RBIs:
Posey: 729
Yadi: 998 (and counting)Posey was like a Koufax of catchers in that he was elite for a short period of time and also had some large injuries. But there was no denying his impact and I think he will get in. But Yadi's longevity and defense make him a shoe in.
They’re very different players for sure, but I think Posey putting up 57.8 fWAR from 2010-2021 (57.6 if you add in 2009) is much more impressive than Molina’s 55.6 fWAR from 2004-21. Posey being the all-around better player makes him more of a guarantee than Molina is. Posey’s career offensive rate stats (not counting stats lmao) are far and away better than Molina’s, while still being a fantastic defensive catcher for most of his career as well. They’ll both probably make it in though.
I agree. But I'm an old head and counting stats matter. Being on the field matters. And consistently producing over time matters. I freely admit that stats like RBIs are not the amazing tell all that older fans think they are, it involves having guys on base in front of you, how you are pitched to based on who is behind you etc.
That said, the prime objective on offense is to score. And when you are responsible for doing that or hitting the ball so others do, it matters.
Now, I really only went into that because of the (not counting stats lmao) comment. They are not as archaic as some believe. They are not the best benchmark for success but they are a good benchmark.
Molina's longevity and durability are reflected in his games played and he has perfectly respectable numbers from a defense first catcher. But 9 gold gloves to 1 in the most important defensive position on the field is a big deal.
I'm really not knocking Posey, he is certainly the better hitter. Had he been healthy, not had a catastrophic broken leg which has haunted him year after year, he would have been a GOAT catcher candidate.
In closing, I think they should both get in. But if I were a pitcher, I'd rather face Molina than Posey, and I'd rather he call my game from begind the plate as well.
The issue with you using tally stats in this situation is the fact that Molina has played so many more games than Posey. It’s only natural that his tally stats are going to be higher. You have to look at rate stats to get an accurate comparison of how good their careers have been. It has nothing to do with RBIs being a useless stat for evaluating a hitter (which they are).
I agree (not with the rbi part). But with the comparing the two. Yes, Posey’s rate stats are better which is why I conceded that he is the better hitter. But getting hurt unfortunately effects your standing. This is why guys like Mark Prior, Mark Mulder, Nomar etc aren't in higher regard, they couldn't stay healthy. Now we have guys like Syndagaard and Straburg facing the same issue.
Posey is the better hitter, Molina is not only a better fielder, but one of the 5 best fielding catchers of the last 60 years if not ever.
And RBIs are not a useless stat. If there is a runner on base, give me the guy who gets a hit, puts the ball in play without a double play or even walks in a run. It's not the best stat. And as a comparative tool, stats like wRC+ are far better. But it has it's place.
However, I brought the RBI thing up as a seperate argument and I do agree that it's unfair to compare the two based on RBIs or Hits. I just have to comment when someone knocks the basics hahaha.
Funny enough, we're not really in disagreement. I think Molina and Posey are both greats, HOFers for sure. But to be able to stay on the field for 18 years as a catcher and still play at an elite level (for most of those years) deserves kudos.
We don’t know why Posey has decided to retire, but it certainly isn’t because injuries kept him from being a great player. I mean, he’s retiring after putting up a 4.9 fWAR season with a 140 wRC+. He could clearly keep playing at a very high level if he wanted to.
Posey being in the top 10 in Fangraphs’ Def among catchers while also being in the top 20 in Fangraphs’ Off among catchers is more impressive to me than Molina being 1st in Fangraphs’ Def and 531 in Fangraphs’ Off. They’ve both put up similar value in different ways obviously, but I’d give Posey the edge for being consistently elite in both offense and defense.
RBIs are interesting to look at along with other stats, but they in no way tell anything about the quality of a hitter. A weak groundout can result in an RBI, just like a lazy flyout can too. A bad/average hitter with lots of opportunities can have more RBI than an amazing hitter with much fewer opportunities. The NL RBI leader this year was only 3% better than league-average, and put up exactly 0.0 Off. While the best hitter in baseball only had 84 RBI and was 70% better than league-average. RBI has no place when comparing players.
Molina has had a fine career, but only putting up the amount of fWAR he has with how long he’s played does hurt him a bit, especially when you see that someone like Posey has put up more in nearly 2,700 less PA.
Either way, Posey, Molina, and Mauer will all end up being inducted at some point.
