99 Posey Incoming
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@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
World championships:
Posey: 3
Molina: 2I personally don't think that should be a factor as WS Championships are a team accomplishment. But that is just my opinion.
In the end it is up to the writers who vote on the ballots. While offensive stats and awards are good indicators they are not the only criteria. Ozzie Smith got inducted almost entirely based on his glove.
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@quinnymcquinn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
Before we discuss Posey vs Molina, can we see if Joe Mauer gets in first? If it’s tough when he is eligible that might set the table for Posey and Molina’s hall cases.
Mauer basically was Posey without the accolades. So if Mauer doesnt get in, and he shouldnt, I still think Posey could easily. Honestly though Poseys short career might hurt him. But catchers have an intangible that other players dont. The whole calling games and framing pitch type stuff that dont have stats. Posey also had that over Mauer.
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@mottledaxe86_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@mrad2010_xbl said in 99 Posey Incoming:
I talked to a baseball scout once that said Posey was the best high school baseball player he had ever seen. He’s the type of catcher to make all his pitchers better by calling the right pitchers and managing the game. Sure shot hall of famer in my book.
@mrad2010_xbl said in 99 Posey Incoming:
I talked to a baseball scout once that said Posey was the best high school baseball player he had ever seen. He’s the type of catcher to make all his pitchers better by calling the right pitchers and managing the game. Sure shot hall of famer in my book.
Was Clint Eastwood, Amy Adams, or Justin Timberlake the scout by any chance
Listen man. I’m not a Giants fan. I’m not even really a Posey fan. I’m an Orioles fan. That being said I agreed with that man and think Posey is a legitimate hall of famer. Also wasn’t Posey a inning boss and had a couple 99 cards already? -
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@quinnymcquinn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
Probably a silly question but is he a hall of famer?
So 1-MVP, 3-WS, ROTY, 7x AS. From a award perspective I’d say yes. From a statistical perspective it’s very borderline.
If people think Molina will be in the HoF, then Posey is 100% guaranteed to get in.
Ah the Posey v. Molina debate.
Personally I agree though I definitely think Molina has overall the better chance because of his defense and longevity. But they are extremely close in other areas.
War:
Posey: 44.1
Yadi: 42. 8World championships:
Posey: 3
Molina: 2MVP:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 0ROTY:
Posey:1
Yadi:0Those all favor Posey
Here is what favors Molina
Gold Gloves:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 9Hits:
Posey: 1,500
Molina: 2,112 (and counting)HRs:
Posey: 158
Yadi: 171 (and counting)Games:
Posey: 1,371
Yadi: 2,146 (and counting)RBIs:
Posey: 729
Yadi: 998 (and counting)Posey was like a Koufax of catchers in that he was elite for a short period of time and also had some large injuries. But there was no denying his impact and I think he will get in. But Yadi's longevity and defense make him a shoe in.
They’re very different players for sure, but I think Posey putting up 57.8 fWAR from 2010-2021 (57.6 if you add in 2009) is much more impressive than Molina’s 55.6 fWAR from 2004-21. Posey being the all-around better player makes him more of a guarantee than Molina is. Posey’s career offensive rate stats (not counting stats lmao) are far and away better than Molina’s, while still being a fantastic defensive catcher for most of his career as well. They’ll both probably make it in though.
I agree. But I'm an old head and counting stats matter. Being on the field matters. And consistently producing over time matters. I freely admit that stats like RBIs are not the amazing tell all that older fans think they are, it involves having guys on base in front of you, how you are pitched to based on who is behind you etc.
That said, the prime objective on offense is to score. And when you are responsible for doing that or hitting the ball so others do, it matters.
Now, I really only went into that because of the (not counting stats lmao) comment. They are not as archaic as some believe. They are not the best benchmark for success but they are a good benchmark.
Molina's longevity and durability are reflected in his games played and he has perfectly respectable numbers from a defense first catcher. But 9 gold gloves to 1 in the most important defensive position on the field is a big deal.
I'm really not knocking Posey, he is certainly the better hitter. Had he been healthy, not had a catastrophic broken leg which has haunted him year after year, he would have been a GOAT catcher candidate.
In closing, I think they should both get in. But if I were a pitcher, I'd rather face Molina than Posey, and I'd rather he call my game from begind the plate as well.
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@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@quinnymcquinn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
Probably a silly question but is he a hall of famer?
So 1-MVP, 3-WS, ROTY, 7x AS. From a award perspective I’d say yes. From a statistical perspective it’s very borderline.
If people think Molina will be in the HoF, then Posey is 100% guaranteed to get in.
Ah the Posey v. Molina debate.
Personally I agree though I definitely think Molina has overall the better chance because of his defense and longevity. But they are extremely close in other areas.
War:
Posey: 44.1
Yadi: 42. 8World championships:
Posey: 3
Molina: 2MVP:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 0ROTY:
Posey:1
Yadi:0Those all favor Posey
Here is what favors Molina
Gold Gloves:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 9Hits:
Posey: 1,500
Molina: 2,112 (and counting)HRs:
Posey: 158
Yadi: 171 (and counting)Games:
Posey: 1,371
Yadi: 2,146 (and counting)RBIs:
Posey: 729
Yadi: 998 (and counting)Posey was like a Koufax of catchers in that he was elite for a short period of time and also had some large injuries. But there was no denying his impact and I think he will get in. But Yadi's longevity and defense make him a shoe in.
They’re very different players for sure, but I think Posey putting up 57.8 fWAR from 2010-2021 (57.6 if you add in 2009) is much more impressive than Molina’s 55.6 fWAR from 2004-21. Posey being the all-around better player makes him more of a guarantee than Molina is. Posey’s career offensive rate stats (not counting stats lmao) are far and away better than Molina’s, while still being a fantastic defensive catcher for most of his career as well. They’ll both probably make it in though.
I agree. But I'm an old head and counting stats matter. Being on the field matters. And consistently producing over time matters. I freely admit that stats like RBIs are not the amazing tell all that older fans think they are, it involves having guys on base in front of you, how you are pitched to based in who is behind you etc.
That said, the prime objective on offense is to score. And when you are responsible for doing that or hitting the ball so others do, it matters.
Now, I really only went into that because of the (not counting stats lmao) comment. They are not as archaic as some believe. They are not the best benchmark for success but the are a good benchmark.
Molinas longevity and durability are reflected in his games played and that he has perfectly respectable numbers from a defense first catcher. But 9 gold gloves to 1 in the most important defensive position on the field is a big deal.
I'm really not knocking Posey, he is certainly the better hitter. Had he been healthy, not had a catastrophic broken leg which has haunted him year after year, he would have been a GOAT catcher candidate.
In closing, I think they should both get in. But if I were a pitcher, I'd rather face Molina than Posey, and I'd rather pitch to him as well.
Well said.
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@dolenz_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
World championships:
Posey: 3
Molina: 2I personally don't think that should be a factor as WS Championships are a team accomplishment. But that is just my opinion.
In the end it is up to the writers who vote on the ballots. While offensive stats and awards are good indicators they are not the only criteria. Ozzie Smith got inducted almost entirely based on his glove.
I definitely don't think it should hinder a guy but I can help. Championships are less crucial in baseball then as a quarterback in football or a top star in basketball. When evaluating the best quarterback, number of championships always cone into play. Sane with the LeBron v Jordan debate. Baseball because a guy like Trout can easily a hall of famer GOAT candidate and never sniff the series because of the nature of baseball, 1 player simply can't effect the season enough on his own.
For Posey and Molina though, I think it helps to highlight their accomplishments. Posey had a massive impact in a short period of time and helped bring 3 championships out of nowhere to a franchise who hadn't won in 60+ years. They definitely push the needle.
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@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@dolenz_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
World championships:
Posey: 3
Molina: 2I personally don't think that should be a factor as WS Championships are a team accomplishment. But that is just my opinion.
In the end it is up to the writers who vote on the ballots. While offensive stats and awards are good indicators they are not the only criteria. Ozzie Smith got inducted almost entirely based on his glove.
I definitely don't think it should hinder a guy but I can help. Championships are less crucial in baseball then as a quarterback in football or a top star in basketball. When evaluating the best quarterback, number of championships always cone into play. Sane with the LeBron v Jordan debate. Baseball because a guy like Trout can easily a hall of famer GOAT candidate and never sniff the series because of the nature of baseball, 1 player simply can't effect the season enough on his own.
For Posey and Molina though, I think it helps to highlight their accomplishments. Posey had a massive impact in a short period of time and helped bring 3 championships out of nowhere to a franchise who hadn't won in 60+ years. They definitely push the needle.
True.
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@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@quinnymcquinn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
Probably a silly question but is he a hall of famer?
So 1-MVP, 3-WS, ROTY, 7x AS. From a award perspective I’d say yes. From a statistical perspective it’s very borderline.
If people think Molina will be in the HoF, then Posey is 100% guaranteed to get in.
Ah the Posey v. Molina debate.
Personally I agree though I definitely think Molina has overall the better chance because of his defense and longevity. But they are extremely close in other areas.
War:
Posey: 44.1
Yadi: 42. 8World championships:
Posey: 3
Molina: 2MVP:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 0ROTY:
Posey:1
Yadi:0Those all favor Posey
Here is what favors Molina
Gold Gloves:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 9Hits:
Posey: 1,500
Molina: 2,112 (and counting)HRs:
Posey: 158
Yadi: 171 (and counting)Games:
Posey: 1,371
Yadi: 2,146 (and counting)RBIs:
Posey: 729
Yadi: 998 (and counting)Posey was like a Koufax of catchers in that he was elite for a short period of time and also had some large injuries. But there was no denying his impact and I think he will get in. But Yadi's longevity and defense make him a shoe in.
They’re very different players for sure, but I think Posey putting up 57.8 fWAR from 2010-2021 (57.6 if you add in 2009) is much more impressive than Molina’s 55.6 fWAR from 2004-21. Posey being the all-around better player makes him more of a guarantee than Molina is. Posey’s career offensive rate stats (not counting stats lmao) are far and away better than Molina’s, while still being a fantastic defensive catcher for most of his career as well. They’ll both probably make it in though.
I agree. But I'm an old head and counting stats matter. Being on the field matters. And consistently producing over time matters. I freely admit that stats like RBIs are not the amazing tell all that older fans think they are, it involves having guys on base in front of you, how you are pitched to based on who is behind you etc.
That said, the prime objective on offense is to score. And when you are responsible for doing that or hitting the ball so others do, it matters.
Now, I really only went into that because of the (not counting stats lmao) comment. They are not as archaic as some believe. They are not the best benchmark for success but they are a good benchmark.
Molina's longevity and durability are reflected in his games played and he has perfectly respectable numbers from a defense first catcher. But 9 gold gloves to 1 in the most important defensive position on the field is a big deal.
I'm really not knocking Posey, he is certainly the better hitter. Had he been healthy, not had a catastrophic broken leg which has haunted him year after year, he would have been a GOAT catcher candidate.
In closing, I think they should both get in. But if I were a pitcher, I'd rather face Molina than Posey, and I'd rather he call my game from begind the plate as well.
The issue with you using tally stats in this situation is the fact that Molina has played so many more games than Posey. It’s only natural that his tally stats are going to be higher. You have to look at rate stats to get an accurate comparison of how good their careers have been. It has nothing to do with RBIs being a useless stat for evaluating a hitter (which they are).
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@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@quinnymcquinn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
Probably a silly question but is he a hall of famer?
So 1-MVP, 3-WS, ROTY, 7x AS. From a award perspective I’d say yes. From a statistical perspective it’s very borderline.
If people think Molina will be in the HoF, then Posey is 100% guaranteed to get in.
Ah the Posey v. Molina debate.
Personally I agree though I definitely think Molina has overall the better chance because of his defense and longevity. But they are extremely close in other areas.
War:
Posey: 44.1
Yadi: 42. 8World championships:
Posey: 3
Molina: 2MVP:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 0ROTY:
Posey:1
Yadi:0Those all favor Posey
Here is what favors Molina
Gold Gloves:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 9Hits:
Posey: 1,500
Molina: 2,112 (and counting)HRs:
Posey: 158
Yadi: 171 (and counting)Games:
Posey: 1,371
Yadi: 2,146 (and counting)RBIs:
Posey: 729
Yadi: 998 (and counting)Posey was like a Koufax of catchers in that he was elite for a short period of time and also had some large injuries. But there was no denying his impact and I think he will get in. But Yadi's longevity and defense make him a shoe in.
They’re very different players for sure, but I think Posey putting up 57.8 fWAR from 2010-2021 (57.6 if you add in 2009) is much more impressive than Molina’s 55.6 fWAR from 2004-21. Posey being the all-around better player makes him more of a guarantee than Molina is. Posey’s career offensive rate stats (not counting stats lmao) are far and away better than Molina’s, while still being a fantastic defensive catcher for most of his career as well. They’ll both probably make it in though.
I agree. But I'm an old head and counting stats matter. Being on the field matters. And consistently producing over time matters. I freely admit that stats like RBIs are not the amazing tell all that older fans think they are, it involves having guys on base in front of you, how you are pitched to based on who is behind you etc.
That said, the prime objective on offense is to score. And when you are responsible for doing that or hitting the ball so others do, it matters.
Now, I really only went into that because of the (not counting stats lmao) comment. They are not as archaic as some believe. They are not the best benchmark for success but they are a good benchmark.
Molina's longevity and durability are reflected in his games played and he has perfectly respectable numbers from a defense first catcher. But 9 gold gloves to 1 in the most important defensive position on the field is a big deal.
I'm really not knocking Posey, he is certainly the better hitter. Had he been healthy, not had a catastrophic broken leg which has haunted him year after year, he would have been a GOAT catcher candidate.
In closing, I think they should both get in. But if I were a pitcher, I'd rather face Molina than Posey, and I'd rather he call my game from begind the plate as well.
The issue with you using tally stats in this situation is the fact that Molina has played so many more games than Posey. It’s only natural that his tally stats are going to be higher. You have to look at rate stats to get an accurate comparison of how good their careers have been. It has nothing to do with RBIs being a useless stat for evaluating a hitter (which they are).
I agree (not with the rbi part). But with the comparing the two. Yes, Posey’s rate stats are better which is why I conceded that he is the better hitter. But getting hurt unfortunately effects your standing. This is why guys like Mark Prior, Mark Mulder, Nomar etc aren't in higher regard, they couldn't stay healthy. Now we have guys like Syndagaard and Straburg facing the same issue.
Posey is the better hitter, Molina is not only a better fielder, but one of the 5 best fielding catchers of the last 60 years if not ever.
And RBIs are not a useless stat. If there is a runner on base, give me the guy who gets a hit, puts the ball in play without a double play or even walks in a run. It's not the best stat. And as a comparative tool, stats like wRC+ are far better. But it has it's place.
However, I brought the RBI thing up as a seperate argument and I do agree that it's unfair to compare the two based on RBIs or Hits. I just have to comment when someone knocks the basics hahaha.
Funny enough, we're not really in disagreement. I think Molina and Posey are both greats, HOFers for sure. But to be able to stay on the field for 18 years as a catcher and still play at an elite level (for most of those years) deserves kudos.
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@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@quinnymcquinn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
Probably a silly question but is he a hall of famer?
So 1-MVP, 3-WS, ROTY, 7x AS. From a award perspective I’d say yes. From a statistical perspective it’s very borderline.
If people think Molina will be in the HoF, then Posey is 100% guaranteed to get in.
Ah the Posey v. Molina debate.
Personally I agree though I definitely think Molina has overall the better chance because of his defense and longevity. But they are extremely close in other areas.
War:
Posey: 44.1
Yadi: 42. 8World championships:
Posey: 3
Molina: 2MVP:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 0ROTY:
Posey:1
Yadi:0Those all favor Posey
Here is what favors Molina
Gold Gloves:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 9Hits:
Posey: 1,500
Molina: 2,112 (and counting)HRs:
Posey: 158
Yadi: 171 (and counting)Games:
Posey: 1,371
Yadi: 2,146 (and counting)RBIs:
Posey: 729
Yadi: 998 (and counting)Posey was like a Koufax of catchers in that he was elite for a short period of time and also had some large injuries. But there was no denying his impact and I think he will get in. But Yadi's longevity and defense make him a shoe in.
They’re very different players for sure, but I think Posey putting up 57.8 fWAR from 2010-2021 (57.6 if you add in 2009) is much more impressive than Molina’s 55.6 fWAR from 2004-21. Posey being the all-around better player makes him more of a guarantee than Molina is. Posey’s career offensive rate stats (not counting stats lmao) are far and away better than Molina’s, while still being a fantastic defensive catcher for most of his career as well. They’ll both probably make it in though.
I agree. But I'm an old head and counting stats matter. Being on the field matters. And consistently producing over time matters. I freely admit that stats like RBIs are not the amazing tell all that older fans think they are, it involves having guys on base in front of you, how you are pitched to based on who is behind you etc.
That said, the prime objective on offense is to score. And when you are responsible for doing that or hitting the ball so others do, it matters.
Now, I really only went into that because of the (not counting stats lmao) comment. They are not as archaic as some believe. They are not the best benchmark for success but they are a good benchmark.
Molina's longevity and durability are reflected in his games played and he has perfectly respectable numbers from a defense first catcher. But 9 gold gloves to 1 in the most important defensive position on the field is a big deal.
I'm really not knocking Posey, he is certainly the better hitter. Had he been healthy, not had a catastrophic broken leg which has haunted him year after year, he would have been a GOAT catcher candidate.
In closing, I think they should both get in. But if I were a pitcher, I'd rather face Molina than Posey, and I'd rather he call my game from begind the plate as well.
The issue with you using tally stats in this situation is the fact that Molina has played so many more games than Posey. It’s only natural that his tally stats are going to be higher. You have to look at rate stats to get an accurate comparison of how good their careers have been. It has nothing to do with RBIs being a useless stat for evaluating a hitter (which they are).
I agree (not with the rbi part). But with the comparing the two. Yes, Posey’s rate stats are better which is why I conceded that he is the better hitter. But getting hurt unfortunately effects your standing. This is why guys like Mark Prior, Mark Mulder, Nomar etc aren't in higher regard, they couldn't stay healthy. Now we have guys like Syndagaard and Straburg facing the same issue.
Posey is the better hitter, Molina is not only a better fielder, but one of the 5 best fielding catchers of the last 60 years if not ever.
And RBIs are not a useless stat. If there is a runner on base, give me the guy who gets a hit, puts the ball in play without a double play or even walks in a run. It's not the best stat. And as a comparative tool, stats like wRC+ are far better. But it has it's place.
However, I brought the RBI thing up as a seperate argument and I do agree that it's unfair to compare the two based on RBIs or Hits. I just have to comment when someone knocks the basics hahaha.
Funny enough, we're not really in disagreement. I think Molina and Posey are both greats, HOFers for sure. But to be able to stay on the field for 18 years as a catcher and still play at an elite level (for most of those years) deserves kudos.
We don’t know why Posey has decided to retire, but it certainly isn’t because injuries kept him from being a great player. I mean, he’s retiring after putting up a 4.9 fWAR season with a 140 wRC+. He could clearly keep playing at a very high level if he wanted to.
Posey being in the top 10 in Fangraphs’ Def among catchers while also being in the top 20 in Fangraphs’ Off among catchers is more impressive to me than Molina being 1st in Fangraphs’ Def and 531 in Fangraphs’ Off. They’ve both put up similar value in different ways obviously, but I’d give Posey the edge for being consistently elite in both offense and defense.
RBIs are interesting to look at along with other stats, but they in no way tell anything about the quality of a hitter. A weak groundout can result in an RBI, just like a lazy flyout can too. A bad/average hitter with lots of opportunities can have more RBI than an amazing hitter with much fewer opportunities. The NL RBI leader this year was only 3% better than league-average, and put up exactly 0.0 Off. While the best hitter in baseball only had 84 RBI and was 70% better than league-average. RBI has no place when comparing players.
Molina has had a fine career, but only putting up the amount of fWAR he has with how long he’s played does hurt him a bit, especially when you see that someone like Posey has put up more in nearly 2,700 less PA.
Either way, Posey, Molina, and Mauer will all end up being inducted at some point.
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@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@ericulous1_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@quinnymcquinn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
Probably a silly question but is he a hall of famer?
So 1-MVP, 3-WS, ROTY, 7x AS. From a award perspective I’d say yes. From a statistical perspective it’s very borderline.
If people think Molina will be in the HoF, then Posey is 100% guaranteed to get in.
Ah the Posey v. Molina debate.
Personally I agree though I definitely think Molina has overall the better chance because of his defense and longevity. But they are extremely close in other areas.
War:
Posey: 44.1
Yadi: 42. 8World championships:
Posey: 3
Molina: 2MVP:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 0ROTY:
Posey:1
Yadi:0Those all favor Posey
Here is what favors Molina
Gold Gloves:
Posey: 1
Yadi: 9Hits:
Posey: 1,500
Molina: 2,112 (and counting)HRs:
Posey: 158
Yadi: 171 (and counting)Games:
Posey: 1,371
Yadi: 2,146 (and counting)RBIs:
Posey: 729
Yadi: 998 (and counting)Posey was like a Koufax of catchers in that he was elite for a short period of time and also had some large injuries. But there was no denying his impact and I think he will get in. But Yadi's longevity and defense make him a shoe in.
They’re very different players for sure, but I think Posey putting up 57.8 fWAR from 2010-2021 (57.6 if you add in 2009) is much more impressive than Molina’s 55.6 fWAR from 2004-21. Posey being the all-around better player makes him more of a guarantee than Molina is. Posey’s career offensive rate stats (not counting stats lmao) are far and away better than Molina’s, while still being a fantastic defensive catcher for most of his career as well. They’ll both probably make it in though.
I agree. But I'm an old head and counting stats matter. Being on the field matters. And consistently producing over time matters. I freely admit that stats like RBIs are not the amazing tell all that older fans think they are, it involves having guys on base in front of you, how you are pitched to based on who is behind you etc.
That said, the prime objective on offense is to score. And when you are responsible for doing that or hitting the ball so others do, it matters.
Now, I really only went into that because of the (not counting stats lmao) comment. They are not as archaic as some believe. They are not the best benchmark for success but they are a good benchmark.
Molina's longevity and durability are reflected in his games played and he has perfectly respectable numbers from a defense first catcher. But 9 gold gloves to 1 in the most important defensive position on the field is a big deal.
I'm really not knocking Posey, he is certainly the better hitter. Had he been healthy, not had a catastrophic broken leg which has haunted him year after year, he would have been a GOAT catcher candidate.
In closing, I think they should both get in. But if I were a pitcher, I'd rather face Molina than Posey, and I'd rather he call my game from begind the plate as well.
The issue with you using tally stats in this situation is the fact that Molina has played so many more games than Posey. It’s only natural that his tally stats are going to be higher. You have to look at rate stats to get an accurate comparison of how good their careers have been. It has nothing to do with RBIs being a useless stat for evaluating a hitter (which they are).
I agree (not with the rbi part). But with the comparing the two. Yes, Posey’s rate stats are better which is why I conceded that he is the better hitter. But getting hurt unfortunately effects your standing. This is why guys like Mark Prior, Mark Mulder, Nomar etc aren't in higher regard, they couldn't stay healthy. Now we have guys like Syndagaard and Straburg facing the same issue.
Posey is the better hitter, Molina is not only a better fielder, but one of the 5 best fielding catchers of the last 60 years if not ever.
And RBIs are not a useless stat. If there is a runner on base, give me the guy who gets a hit, puts the ball in play without a double play or even walks in a run. It's not the best stat. And as a comparative tool, stats like wRC+ are far better. But it has it's place.
However, I brought the RBI thing up as a seperate argument and I do agree that it's unfair to compare the two based on RBIs or Hits. I just have to comment when someone knocks the basics hahaha.
Funny enough, we're not really in disagreement. I think Molina and Posey are both greats, HOFers for sure. But to be able to stay on the field for 18 years as a catcher and still play at an elite level (for most of those years) deserves kudos.
We don’t know why Posey has decided to retire, but it certainly isn’t because injuries kept him from being a great player. I mean, he’s retiring after putting up a 4.9 fWAR season with a 140 wRC+. He could clearly keep playing at a very high level if he wanted to.
Posey being in the top 10 in Fangraphs’ Def while also being in the top 20 in Fangraphs’ Off is more impressive to me than Molina being 1st in Fangraphs’ Def and 531 in Fangraphs’ Off. They’ve both put up similar value in different ways obviously, but I’d give Posey the edge for being consistently elite in both offense and defense.
RBIs are interesting to look at along with other stats, but they in no way tell anything about the quality of a hitter. A weak groundout can result in an RBI, just like a lazy flyout can too. A bad/average hitter with lots of opportunities can have more RBI than an amazing hitter with much fewer opportunities. The NL RBI leader this year was only 3% better than league-average, and put up exactly 0.0 Off. While the best hitter in baseball only had 84 RBI and was 70% better than league-average. RBI has no place when comparing players.
Molina has had a fine career, but only putting up the amount of fWAR he has with how long he’s played does hurt him a bit, especially when you see that someone like Posey has put up more in nearly 2,700 less PA.
Either way, Posey, Molina, and Mauer will all end up being inducted at some point.
An old baseball nerd (not that old haha) versus a new age stat head. Well, I tip my cap to you.
It's funny how much the commentators were gushing over guys simply being able to put a ball in play. And while you can absolutely get an rbi after being beaten by a sinker and hitting a 6 hopper to first and not if you barrel up and hit a line drive right to 3rd, it still indicates that you put the ball in play. A fundamental that seems to be lost in baseball this year.I agree that Posey is most likely not retiring due to injury as he had a fantastic year and is still young enough to play at a high level. Maybe he just wants to go out on top and not hang around too long like my favorite player ever: Albert Pujols. He has nothing left to accomplish. I think Posey won a batting title too, yeah?
Shifting a bit, I like that you included Mauer. To me, having 3 batting titles especially in the last 2 decades where hitting for average isn't in huge supply, that's a big deal. That he was the only AL catcher to win even 1 is also relevant and it's not like he got it the cheap way like Gurriel this year (no offense to Yuli who had an excellent season. But .313 is your batting champ? Come on. Didn't Mauer hit over .360 a few times? If I check my phone will drop this post so I'll hope I'm right:).
Anyway, I'll put this to rest. Well debated and we didn't have to resort to name calling and such.
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@chuckclc_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@quinnymcquinn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
Before we discuss Posey vs Molina, can we see if Joe Mauer gets in first? If it’s tough when he is eligible that might set the table for Posey and Molina’s hall cases.
Mauer basically was Posey without the accolades. So if Mauer doesnt get in, and he shouldnt, I still think Posey could easily. Honestly though Poseys short career might hurt him. But catchers have an intangible that other players dont. The whole calling games and framing pitch type stuff that dont have stats. Posey also had that over Mauer.
I don’t disagree. I know Mauer didn’t spend his entire career behind the plate but it was about 10 years. I think between Molina, Posey and Mauer you have an interesting dynamic and I could argue for or against either.
To me Posey is the better career player. His mixture of both Defense and offense makes him very balanced and very good.
Molina put up good counting stats on offense. Never was he dominate or an offensive anchor. Now on defense you’re looking at a top 5 defensive catcher of all time. Much like Ozzie if Molina gets in it’ll be based highly off his defensive output.
Mauer had a great start to his career and for a three or four year stretch was considered one of the best players in baseball. Defensively he is not on par with either of these guys but he wasn’t a slouch either. As far as accolades he really only lacks a ring.
I just think people assume Molina is a no doubt hall of famer, but compared to these two guys I’d say if he’s a shoe in then why wouldn’t Mauer or Posey be considered tge same?
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My thoughts on Posey/Yadi/Mauer. I think Yadi has the best shot of the 3 to make the HOF due to his longevity, plus he is the best defensive catcher ever. Posey and Mauer are superior offensive players than Yadi when it comes to averages, Mauer being the best offensive player overall of the 3. A lot of people are bringing up WS rings with Posey and it doesn't help him as much as people think it does. I think posey was a fantastic player, but he is Basically Jorge Posada with better defense and an MVP award. Posada dropped off the ballot after his first year. Gary Carter(who is undoubtably a top 5 catcher of all time) took 6 tries to get in the hall. While many may look at posey and think he is a clear cut hall of famer, you just don't know the voters. They are extremely strict with how they evaluate. And before anyone says Harold Baines, he got in because of his buddies on the veterans committee, not the BBWAA
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@the_dragon1912 said in 99 Posey Incoming:
My thoughts on Posey/Yadi/Mauer. I think Yadi has the best shot of the 3 to make the HOF due to his longevity, plus he is the best defensive catcher ever. Posey and Mauer are superior offensive players than Yadi when it comes to averages, Mauer being the best offensive player overall of the 3. A lot of people are bringing up WS rings with Posey and it doesn't help him as much as people think it does. I think posey was a fantastic player, but he is Basically Jorge Posada with better defense and an MVP award. Posada dropped off the ballot after his first year. Gary Carter(who is undoubtably a top 5 catcher of all time) took 6 tries to get in the hall. While many may look at posey and think he is a clear cut hall of famer, you just don't know the voters. They are extremely strict with how they evaluate. And before anyone says Harold Baines, he got in because of his buddies on the veterans committee, not the BBWAA
Posey has the best shot due to his fWAR total in such a short amount of time, along with being a top 10 defensive catcher based on Fangraphs’ Def, being a top 20 offensive catcher based on Fangraphs’ Off, and in the top 10 among wRC+ for catchers. Posey is currently the 8th best catcher in terms of fWAR, while Molina is the 10th. However, Posey doing that in nearly 2,700 less PA than Molina makes it even more impressive. Posey’s shorter career only helps him, not hurt him. Posey’s combination of being an all all-time elite offensive catcher while being in the top 10 all-time defensive catchers gives him the edge over Molina being 1st defensively and around 530th in Fangraphs’ Off (149th in wRC+) among catchers.
Posada and Posey aren’t even comparable tbh. Posada has 40.4 career fWAR, while Posey has 57.6 in 1500 less PA. Posey was slightly better in terms of wRC+, and also had elite defense to go with it. Posada shouldn’t be in the hall of fame with only 40 fWAR, but Posey will be with nearly 60. If analytics were as widespread then as they are now, Carter would’ve been in on the first ballot guaranteed. Voters are looking at advanced stats more and more these days as old voters leave and younger ones take their place, and the stats highly favor Posey as a first ballot hall of famer.
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@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@the_dragon1912 said in 99 Posey Incoming:
My thoughts on Posey/Yadi/Mauer. I think Yadi has the best shot of the 3 to make the HOF due to his longevity, plus he is the best defensive catcher ever. Posey and Mauer are superior offensive players than Yadi when it comes to averages, Mauer being the best offensive player overall of the 3. A lot of people are bringing up WS rings with Posey and it doesn't help him as much as people think it does. I think posey was a fantastic player, but he is Basically Jorge Posada with better defense and an MVP award. Posada dropped off the ballot after his first year. Gary Carter(who is undoubtably a top 5 catcher of all time) took 6 tries to get in the hall. While many may look at posey and think he is a clear cut hall of famer, you just don't know the voters. They are extremely strict with how they evaluate. And before anyone says Harold Baines, he got in because of his buddies on the veterans committee, not the BBWAA
Posey has the best shot due to his fWAR total in such a short amount of time, along with being a top 10 defensive catcher based on Fangraphs’ Def, being a top 20 offensive catcher based on Fangraphs’ Off, and in the top 10 among wRC+ for catchers. Posey is currently the 8th best catcher in terms of fWAR, while Molina is the 10th. However, Posey doing that in nearly 2,700 less PA than Molina makes it even more impressive. Posey’s shorter career only helps him, not hurt him. Posey’s combination of being an all all-time elite offensive catcher while being in the top 10 all-time defensive catchers gives him the edge over Molina being 1st defensively and around 530th in Fangraphs’ Off (149th in wRC+) among catchers.
Posada and Posey aren’t even comparable tbh. Posada has 40.4 career fWAR, while Posey has 57.6 in 1500 less PA. Posey was slightly better in terms of wRC+, and also had elite defense to go with it. Posada shouldn’t be in the hall of fame with only 40 fWAR, but Posey will be with nearly 60. If they had the analytics back then that we have now, Carter would’ve been in on the first ballot guaranteed. Voters are looking at advanced stats more and more these days, and the stats highly favor Posey as a first ballot hall of famer.
While I agree with you on your assessment, voters are still not looking at advanced stats as much as they should be. If they were, Scott Rolen and Billy Wagner would be in by now. Rolen has gained traction in the past few years, but the best left handed reliever of all time is not on track to make the HOF. If I personally had a vote, I would take Posey out of the 3. Also if you are only looking at offensive numbers Posey and Posada are extremely comparable. Posey better batting average, Posada better slugging and OPS. Posey's defense sets him apart from Posada, absolutely, and taking both sides of the game into account Posey is certainly the most well rounded. That being said I would like to see what Mauers first couple of years on the ballot look like before claiming Posey to be a HOF lock. I know Mauer played 1B at the end of his career, but longevity means a lot to voters, and Posey just doesn't have that
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@the_dragon1912 said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@the_dragon1912 said in 99 Posey Incoming:
My thoughts on Posey/Yadi/Mauer. I think Yadi has the best shot of the 3 to make the HOF due to his longevity, plus he is the best defensive catcher ever. Posey and Mauer are superior offensive players than Yadi when it comes to averages, Mauer being the best offensive player overall of the 3. A lot of people are bringing up WS rings with Posey and it doesn't help him as much as people think it does. I think posey was a fantastic player, but he is Basically Jorge Posada with better defense and an MVP award. Posada dropped off the ballot after his first year. Gary Carter(who is undoubtably a top 5 catcher of all time) took 6 tries to get in the hall. While many may look at posey and think he is a clear cut hall of famer, you just don't know the voters. They are extremely strict with how they evaluate. And before anyone says Harold Baines, he got in because of his buddies on the veterans committee, not the BBWAA
Posey has the best shot due to his fWAR total in such a short amount of time, along with being a top 10 defensive catcher based on Fangraphs’ Def, being a top 20 offensive catcher based on Fangraphs’ Off, and in the top 10 among wRC+ for catchers. Posey is currently the 8th best catcher in terms of fWAR, while Molina is the 10th. However, Posey doing that in nearly 2,700 less PA than Molina makes it even more impressive. Posey’s shorter career only helps him, not hurt him. Posey’s combination of being an all all-time elite offensive catcher while being in the top 10 all-time defensive catchers gives him the edge over Molina being 1st defensively and around 530th in Fangraphs’ Off (149th in wRC+) among catchers.
Posada and Posey aren’t even comparable tbh. Posada has 40.4 career fWAR, while Posey has 57.6 in 1500 less PA. Posey was slightly better in terms of wRC+, and also had elite defense to go with it. Posada shouldn’t be in the hall of fame with only 40 fWAR, but Posey will be with nearly 60. If they had the analytics back then that we have now, Carter would’ve been in on the first ballot guaranteed. Voters are looking at advanced stats more and more these days, and the stats highly favor Posey as a first ballot hall of famer.
While I agree with you on your assessment, voters are still not looking at advanced stats as much as they should be. If they were, Scott Rolen and Billy Wagner would be in by now. Rolen has gained traction in the past few years, but the best left handed reliever of all time is not on track to make the HOF. If I personally had a vote, I would take Posey out of the 3. Also if you are only looking at offensive numbers Posey and Posada are extremely comparable. Posey better batting average, Posada better slugging and OPS. Posey's defense sets him apart from Posada, absolutely, and taking both sides of the game into account Posey is certainly the most well rounded. That being said I would like to see what Mauers first couple of years on the ballot look like before claiming Posey to be a HOF lock. I know Mauer played 1B at the end of his career, but longevity means a lot to voters, and Posey just doesn't have that
I also agree that they could absolutely be looking at advanced stats even more than they already do. I think that’ll change pretty considerably in the next 5 years before Posey is on the ballot. Personally, I think Posey is in a tier above Mauer, so I wouldn’t be worried about what happens with him. I do think voters and other people place way too much emphasis on longevity. If two players that play the same position have the exact same fWAR, but one did it in 10 years while the other did it in 18, the one that did it in 10 years is a much more impressive player.
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@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@the_dragon1912 said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@the_dragon1912 said in 99 Posey Incoming:
My thoughts on Posey/Yadi/Mauer. I think Yadi has the best shot of the 3 to make the HOF due to his longevity, plus he is the best defensive catcher ever. Posey and Mauer are superior offensive players than Yadi when it comes to averages, Mauer being the best offensive player overall of the 3. A lot of people are bringing up WS rings with Posey and it doesn't help him as much as people think it does. I think posey was a fantastic player, but he is Basically Jorge Posada with better defense and an MVP award. Posada dropped off the ballot after his first year. Gary Carter(who is undoubtably a top 5 catcher of all time) took 6 tries to get in the hall. While many may look at posey and think he is a clear cut hall of famer, you just don't know the voters. They are extremely strict with how they evaluate. And before anyone says Harold Baines, he got in because of his buddies on the veterans committee, not the BBWAA
Posey has the best shot due to his fWAR total in such a short amount of time, along with being a top 10 defensive catcher based on Fangraphs’ Def, being a top 20 offensive catcher based on Fangraphs’ Off, and in the top 10 among wRC+ for catchers. Posey is currently the 8th best catcher in terms of fWAR, while Molina is the 10th. However, Posey doing that in nearly 2,700 less PA than Molina makes it even more impressive. Posey’s shorter career only helps him, not hurt him. Posey’s combination of being an all all-time elite offensive catcher while being in the top 10 all-time defensive catchers gives him the edge over Molina being 1st defensively and around 530th in Fangraphs’ Off (149th in wRC+) among catchers.
Posada and Posey aren’t even comparable tbh. Posada has 40.4 career fWAR, while Posey has 57.6 in 1500 less PA. Posey was slightly better in terms of wRC+, and also had elite defense to go with it. Posada shouldn’t be in the hall of fame with only 40 fWAR, but Posey will be with nearly 60. If they had the analytics back then that we have now, Carter would’ve been in on the first ballot guaranteed. Voters are looking at advanced stats more and more these days, and the stats highly favor Posey as a first ballot hall of famer.
While I agree with you on your assessment, voters are still not looking at advanced stats as much as they should be. If they were, Scott Rolen and Billy Wagner would be in by now. Rolen has gained traction in the past few years, but the best left handed reliever of all time is not on track to make the HOF. If I personally had a vote, I would take Posey out of the 3. Also if you are only looking at offensive numbers Posey and Posada are extremely comparable. Posey better batting average, Posada better slugging and OPS. Posey's defense sets him apart from Posada, absolutely, and taking both sides of the game into account Posey is certainly the most well rounded. That being said I would like to see what Mauers first couple of years on the ballot look like before claiming Posey to be a HOF lock. I know Mauer played 1B at the end of his career, but longevity means a lot to voters, and Posey just doesn't have that
I also agree that they could absolutely be looking at advanced stats even more than they already do. I think that’ll change pretty considerably in the next 5 years before Posey is on the ballot. Personally, I think Posey is in a tier above Mauer, so I wouldn’t be worried about what happens with him. I do think voters and other people place way too much emphasis on longevity. If two players that play the same position have the exact same fWAR, but one did it in 10 years while the other did it in 18, the one that did it in 10 years is a much more impressive player.
I absolutely agree, and I would love to see the voters thought processes change in the next few years, I'm just not holding my breath. We shall wait and see I suppose. I wish the voters were more objective when selecting players to the hall. My almost every statistic you can think of, Scott Rolen is a top 10 3B of all time, he just doesn't have that wow factor that voters tend to use. On this years ballot i am very interested to see if any voters cast Arod on their ballots but not Bonds/ Clemens. I know it will happen, but that will still be rediculous
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@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@the_dragon1912 said in 99 Posey Incoming:
My thoughts on Posey/Yadi/Mauer. I think Yadi has the best shot of the 3 to make the HOF due to his longevity, plus he is the best defensive catcher ever. Posey and Mauer are superior offensive players than Yadi when it comes to averages, Mauer being the best offensive player overall of the 3. A lot of people are bringing up WS rings with Posey and it doesn't help him as much as people think it does. I think posey was a fantastic player, but he is Basically Jorge Posada with better defense and an MVP award. Posada dropped off the ballot after his first year. Gary Carter(who is undoubtably a top 5 catcher of all time) took 6 tries to get in the hall. While many may look at posey and think he is a clear cut hall of famer, you just don't know the voters. They are extremely strict with how they evaluate. And before anyone says Harold Baines, he got in because of his buddies on the veterans committee, not the BBWAA
Posey has the best shot due to his fWAR total in such a short amount of time, along with being a top 10 defensive catcher based on Fangraphs’ Def, being a top 20 offensive catcher based on Fangraphs’ Off, and in the top 10 among wRC+ for catchers. Posey is currently the 8th best catcher in terms of fWAR, while Molina is the 10th. However, Posey doing that in nearly 2,700 less PA than Molina makes it even more impressive. Posey’s shorter career only helps him, not hurt him. Posey’s combination of being an all all-time elite offensive catcher while being in the top 10 all-time defensive catchers gives him the edge over Molina being 1st defensively and around 530th in Fangraphs’ Off (149th in wRC+) among catchers.
Posada and Posey aren’t even comparable tbh. Posada has 40.4 career fWAR, while Posey has 57.6 in 1500 less PA. Posey was slightly better in terms of wRC+, and also had elite defense to go with it. Posada shouldn’t be in the hall of fame with only 40 fWAR, but Posey will be with nearly 60. If analytics were as widespread then as they are now, Carter would’ve been in on the first ballot guaranteed. Voters are looking at advanced stats more and more these days as old voters leave and younger ones take their place, and the stats highly favor Posey as a first ballot hall of famer.
It's interesting how different bWAR vs fWAR are for some players. Baseball Reference has Posada at 42.7, very close to fWAR, while its 44.9 for Posey, which is quite the difference between his fWAR you stated above. Its interesting.
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@gradekthebard said in 99 Posey Incoming:
Hall of really good, but borderline hall of famer at best. He might get in, but I don’t think it’s a sure thing.
The Post Season will help his cause to get in.
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@poksey_mlbts said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@jogger171717_psn said in 99 Posey Incoming:
@the_dragon1912 said in 99 Posey Incoming:
My thoughts on Posey/Yadi/Mauer. I think Yadi has the best shot of the 3 to make the HOF due to his longevity, plus he is the best defensive catcher ever. Posey and Mauer are superior offensive players than Yadi when it comes to averages, Mauer being the best offensive player overall of the 3. A lot of people are bringing up WS rings with Posey and it doesn't help him as much as people think it does. I think posey was a fantastic player, but he is Basically Jorge Posada with better defense and an MVP award. Posada dropped off the ballot after his first year. Gary Carter(who is undoubtably a top 5 catcher of all time) took 6 tries to get in the hall. While many may look at posey and think he is a clear cut hall of famer, you just don't know the voters. They are extremely strict with how they evaluate. And before anyone says Harold Baines, he got in because of his buddies on the veterans committee, not the BBWAA
Posey has the best shot due to his fWAR total in such a short amount of time, along with being a top 10 defensive catcher based on Fangraphs’ Def, being a top 20 offensive catcher based on Fangraphs’ Off, and in the top 10 among wRC+ for catchers. Posey is currently the 8th best catcher in terms of fWAR, while Molina is the 10th. However, Posey doing that in nearly 2,700 less PA than Molina makes it even more impressive. Posey’s shorter career only helps him, not hurt him. Posey’s combination of being an all all-time elite offensive catcher while being in the top 10 all-time defensive catchers gives him the edge over Molina being 1st defensively and around 530th in Fangraphs’ Off (149th in wRC+) among catchers.
Posada and Posey aren’t even comparable tbh. Posada has 40.4 career fWAR, while Posey has 57.6 in 1500 less PA. Posey was slightly better in terms of wRC+, and also had elite defense to go with it. Posada shouldn’t be in the hall of fame with only 40 fWAR, but Posey will be with nearly 60. If analytics were as widespread then as they are now, Carter would’ve been in on the first ballot guaranteed. Voters are looking at advanced stats more and more these days as old voters leave and younger ones take their place, and the stats highly favor Posey as a first ballot hall of famer.
It's interesting how different bWAR vs fWAR are for some players. Baseball Reference has Posada at 42.7, very close to fWAR, while its 44.9 for Posey, which is quite the difference between his fWAR you stated above. Its interesting.
Generally fWAR is considered the more reliable and better formula of the two, for position players at least.
