Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever"

dbarmonstar_PSN

@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

It comes down to this: even with pitching and hitting combined, ohtani’s season is still statistically less valuable than many non-combined seasons, both position players and pitchers.

It’s a great season and any team would love to have him, but statistically it’s far from the best season ever. You don’t even have to go back to the old days to find much better seasons.

QFT.

Exactly right. You don't even have to look far to find better overall seasons. He's not even going to sniff any of the seasons of his own teammate (MIKE TROUT!).

Because Mike Trout pitches every fifth day right? I can’t recall the last center fielder to win a Cy Young award and I can’t remember the last time a pitcher hit 40 homers in the same year he won a Cy Young award. But heck that might actually happen this year. And if not this year possibly in the very near future!

Ohtani should not be winning any CY young award this year. We are talking about this year. Only thing that stands out is his HR and RBI in hitting stats, None of his pitching stats stand out, but the fact that he is doing both above avg is impressive, His power numbers will win him a MVP this year. I do not see him being a top pitcher and winning a CY young or deserving a CY Young award. This is what I think. Not an arguement.

You’re good, I was simply stating that Ohtani has the ability and that him winning a Cy young is not out of the realm of possibility if not this year than sometime in the very near future. I did qualify that statement when I posted the reply. I don’t have a horse in this race because I really don’t care what Ohtani does as I’m not angels fan. I do however have great respect for his accomplishments. And regardless of what the OP says there is not a single player in MLB history who has accomplished what Ohtani has done from both disciplines in the same statistical season. Not even the great Babe Ruth. We are witnessing history. I just get ticked when I read these silly posts from this particular OP trying to make asinine comparison between the MLB today and the era of Baseball that Babe Ruth played in. These comparison can’t be made simply because the game has changed too much and the players have evolved to the point that these comparison cannot possibly be quantified. Like I said in previous posts there isn’t a stat out there that can make any of the OP’s comparisons valid. They’re two different generations of the game. Babe was great but would 1920’s version of Babe be the same great player nowadays given the exact same skill set he had back then and would Ohtani given the exact same skill set he has now be on the same playing level as the Babe in 1920. This is not a question that can be answered. This is why the OP’s argument has no basis in reality, because it’s not realistic. This is the OP’s problem, he speaks in hyperbole and uses stats that can’t be properly quantified. He is a homer for the Yankees and is mad because some guy on a show on the MLB network said Ohtani is having one of the greatest seasons ever. Which is that dude’s opinion, which the OP is trying to either discredit or invalidate using today’s saber metrics to make his argument valid which is not valid due to the differences in the game today when compared to the same game 100 years ago. The OP is notorious for these kinds shenanigans. I posted earlier that this dude claimed he could hit major league pitching. Tried to sell another forum post on this and got shredded. He does this stuff all the time.

I understand that, I do not like comparing players from different era's, It does come down to opinion based on stats what one thinks. You can make arguements for a hand full of player's who was the best ever. We can only look at what a player did in time they played and how the game was played with the equipment which they used. If you google Ohtani vs Ruth it is just more than MLB network talking about it. This happens in sports alot especially in Basketball. Others on this forum that are saying Ohtani blah blah blah is what got me started not the OP. I went and looked at Ohtani actual stats and that is where IMO what he can do is impressive but nothing about his stats really stand out. I think for him to be a elite pitcher and win a cy young he would have to step back from hitting. I am not saying it is not possible for him to do but I do not think he is at that level as a pitcher yet and only time will tell. I have stated in Post about how the game has changed as well and how would each play if they were brought up in different era. We really do not know. People seem to assume Ruth would be the same exact person and player that would not be great in today's game as if he would be that person from 1920 that was mind boggling to me. That is like saying Mike Trout going back and playing in 1920 as the player he is today, which he would not be, maybe he would be better, maybe he would have never played baseball in the 1920's. The reality is the comparison of players from today to then is really hard to make.IMO I never saw him play but by the stats Ty Cobb the is the Best, you could say Ted Williams, the man fought 3 years in World War II came back as if he never left that is impressive. Hank Aaron, Barry Bonds (I do not care about the Roids) I agree with the OP that Ohtani is not having one of the Best years ever, What he can do is great and great for baseball, He is very talented and good. How good his career will be we will see. That will depend on health. Not playing a position besides Pitcher does not make him a true two way player, He has 317 games at DH in 4 years and only 14 games as a position player in 4 years.

Huh?

Huh what? Yes Ty Cobb IMO

You said stats say Ty Cobb is the best. This is why I'm asking. What stats can you point to that have Cobb as the best?

All of his stats go look for yourself.

So you mean like hits and batting average or something? Because Ruth beats him in WAR, oWAR, dWAR, OBP, SLG, OPS, OPS+, and Ruth decimates him in stats like WPA.

I would appreciate it if you could clarify your position, as I cant conclude anything close to what you are claiming.

Edit: and this is without including any of Ruth's pitching.

First off i do not need to clarify anything, Go learn the history of the game and what players actually did, Like I said it is my opinion. There are more stats then power numbers and other things to learn about.

Stop being a homer, I Could say Jackie Robinson was the best ever, I could say Koufax or Kershaw was the best pitchers ever if I choose to Stop with the WAR,Owar DWar, You only stated things that Ruth was good at which is power not all the stats. go away now you have your opinion and I have mine.

Babe Ruth literally has 3 MVP seasons worth of WAR more than any player ever

Ruth is 1 in WAR with 183 and Cobb is 6 with 151 is not much of a difference there.

QuinnyMcQuinn

@bob_loblaw1984 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

Articles are being posted every day about Ohtani having the "Greatest Season Ever". Ohtani is about to hit the impressive 9 WAR in a season club, this is an elite club that certainly gives credit to this argument, right.

Ohtani's season is on track to be 130th all-time in WAR. For my non-sabermetrics guys, that basically means it isn't the greatest season ever, it isn't even close.

But who has the greatest season ever? Babe Ruth in 1923, the man who Ohtani is often compared to, with a 14.2 WAR season, more WAR than Ohtani has amassed in his MLB career.

How about the 2nd greatest season ever? That goes to a man by the name of Babe Ruth, who in 1921 posted a 12.9 WAR season.

How about the 3rd greatest season ever? That title goes to little-known former superstar by the name of George, George Herman, or as you may know him... Babe Ruth, with 12.6 WAR in 1927.

As a matter of fact, 5 of the 10 greatest seasons ever, and 6 of the top 11, belong to Babe Ruth.

So Shohei Ohtani, "The Next Babe Ruth" is on pace to have the 130th best season ever, whereas Ruth has half of the top 10 best seasons ever, including the top 3.

Ruth had 16 years where he played at least 100 games. This Ohtani season people are calling maybe the best in MLB history, would only be Ruth's 11th best season, and a down year for him.

Let's end with some stats simpler:

Ohtani 2021 OPS: .986
Ruth career OPS: 1.164
Ruth 1919-1924 OPS: 1.262

Ohtani 2021 ERA: 3.31
Babe Ruth career ERA: 2.28

Let's stop comparing a .260 hitter to a dude who hit over .370 for half a dozen seasons, to a dude who hit more home runs than the entire American League in seasons, and to a dude who beats him in almost any stat. And before the argument that Ruth played in an easier time: (1) Ruth didn't chose his era and if it was so much easier, why was he vastly better than ever other player?

I’d like to see Shohei’s numbers against 1920s pitchers and hitters…

White only? Check.
Low velo? Check.
Strength training? Nah.
Hot dogs and beer? Of course.

You can’t compare the hot dogs and beer today to the hot dogs and beer back then.

Today we have hot dogs with out nitrates and you have a wider selection and transparency of what goes into that Weiner. You can get an all beef dog, veggie dog, now of days at most stadiums.

Also beer has healthier options or lower cal options today.

Bob_Loblaw1984_PSN

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

It comes down to this: even with pitching and hitting combined, ohtani’s season is still statistically less valuable than many non-combined seasons, both position players and pitchers.

It’s a great season and any team would love to have him, but statistically it’s far from the best season ever. You don’t even have to go back to the old days to find much better seasons.

QFT.

Exactly right. You don't even have to look far to find better overall seasons. He's not even going to sniff any of the seasons of his own teammate (MIKE TROUT!).

Because Mike Trout pitches every fifth day right? I can’t recall the last center fielder to win a Cy Young award and I can’t remember the last time a pitcher hit 40 homers in the same year he won a Cy Young award. But heck that might actually happen this year. And if not this year possibly in the very near future!

Ohtani should not be winning any CY young award this year. We are talking about this year. Only thing that stands out is his HR and RBI in hitting stats, None of his pitching stats stand out, but the fact that he is doing both above avg is impressive, His power numbers will win him a MVP this year. I do not see him being a top pitcher and winning a CY young or deserving a CY Young award. This is what I think. Not an arguement.

You’re good, I was simply stating that Ohtani has the ability and that him winning a Cy young is not out of the realm of possibility if not this year than sometime in the very near future. I did qualify that statement when I posted the reply. I don’t have a horse in this race because I really don’t care what Ohtani does as I’m not angels fan. I do however have great respect for his accomplishments. And regardless of what the OP says there is not a single player in MLB history who has accomplished what Ohtani has done from both disciplines in the same statistical season. Not even the great Babe Ruth. We are witnessing history. I just get ticked when I read these silly posts from this particular OP trying to make asinine comparison between the MLB today and the era of Baseball that Babe Ruth played in. These comparison can’t be made simply because the game has changed too much and the players have evolved to the point that these comparison cannot possibly be quantified. Like I said in previous posts there isn’t a stat out there that can make any of the OP’s comparisons valid. They’re two different generations of the game. Babe was great but would 1920’s version of Babe be the same great player nowadays given the exact same skill set he had back then and would Ohtani given the exact same skill set he has now be on the same playing level as the Babe in 1920. This is not a question that can be answered. This is why the OP’s argument has no basis in reality, because it’s not realistic. This is the OP’s problem, he speaks in hyperbole and uses stats that can’t be properly quantified. He is a homer for the Yankees and is mad because some guy on a show on the MLB network said Ohtani is having one of the greatest seasons ever. Which is that dude’s opinion, which the OP is trying to either discredit or invalidate using today’s saber metrics to make his argument valid which is not valid due to the differences in the game today when compared to the same game 100 years ago. The OP is notorious for these kinds shenanigans. I posted earlier that this dude claimed he could hit major league pitching. Tried to sell another forum post on this and got shredded. He does this stuff all the time.

I understand that, I do not like comparing players from different era's, It does come down to opinion based on stats what one thinks. You can make arguements for a hand full of player's who was the best ever. We can only look at what a player did in time they played and how the game was played with the equipment which they used. If you google Ohtani vs Ruth it is just more than MLB network talking about it. This happens in sports alot especially in Basketball. Others on this forum that are saying Ohtani blah blah blah is what got me started not the OP. I went and looked at Ohtani actual stats and that is where IMO what he can do is impressive but nothing about his stats really stand out. I think for him to be a elite pitcher and win a cy young he would have to step back from hitting. I am not saying it is not possible for him to do but I do not think he is at that level as a pitcher yet and only time will tell. I have stated in Post about how the game has changed as well and how would each play if they were brought up in different era. We really do not know. People seem to assume Ruth would be the same exact person and player that would not be great in today's game as if he would be that person from 1920 that was mind boggling to me. That is like saying Mike Trout going back and playing in 1920 as the player he is today, which he would not be, maybe he would be better, maybe he would have never played baseball in the 1920's. The reality is the comparison of players from today to then is really hard to make.IMO I never saw him play but by the stats Ty Cobb the is the Best, you could say Ted Williams, the man fought 3 years in World War II came back as if he never left that is impressive. Hank Aaron, Barry Bonds (I do not care about the Roids) I agree with the OP that Ohtani is not having one of the Best years ever, What he can do is great and great for baseball, He is very talented and good. How good his career will be we will see. That will depend on health. Not playing a position besides Pitcher does not make him a true two way player, He has 317 games at DH in 4 years and only 14 games as a position player in 4 years.

Huh?

Huh what? Yes Ty Cobb IMO

You said stats say Ty Cobb is the best. This is why I'm asking. What stats can you point to that have Cobb as the best?

All of his stats go look for yourself.

So you mean like hits and batting average or something? Because Ruth beats him in WAR, oWAR, dWAR, OBP, SLG, OPS, OPS+, and Ruth decimates him in stats like WPA.

I would appreciate it if you could clarify your position, as I cant conclude anything close to what you are claiming.

Edit: and this is without including any of Ruth's pitching.

First off i do not need to clarify anything, Go learn the history of the game and what players actually did, Like I said it is my opinion. There are more stats then power numbers and other things to learn about.

Stop being a homer, I Could say Jackie Robinson was the best ever, I could say Koufax or Kershaw was the best pitchers ever if I choose to Stop with the WAR,Owar DWar, You only stated things that Ruth was good at which is power not all the stats. go away now you have your opinion and I have mine.

Babe Ruth literally has 3 MVP seasons worth of WAR more than any player ever

Ruth is 1 in WAR with 183 and Cobb is 6 with 151 is not much of a difference there.

There was this kid I played in HS with named Clint. He’s actually #1 in WAR.

Bob_Loblaw1984_PSN

@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@bob_loblaw1984 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

Articles are being posted every day about Ohtani having the "Greatest Season Ever". Ohtani is about to hit the impressive 9 WAR in a season club, this is an elite club that certainly gives credit to this argument, right.

Ohtani's season is on track to be 130th all-time in WAR. For my non-sabermetrics guys, that basically means it isn't the greatest season ever, it isn't even close.

But who has the greatest season ever? Babe Ruth in 1923, the man who Ohtani is often compared to, with a 14.2 WAR season, more WAR than Ohtani has amassed in his MLB career.

How about the 2nd greatest season ever? That goes to a man by the name of Babe Ruth, who in 1921 posted a 12.9 WAR season.

How about the 3rd greatest season ever? That title goes to little-known former superstar by the name of George, George Herman, or as you may know him... Babe Ruth, with 12.6 WAR in 1927.

As a matter of fact, 5 of the 10 greatest seasons ever, and 6 of the top 11, belong to Babe Ruth.

So Shohei Ohtani, "The Next Babe Ruth" is on pace to have the 130th best season ever, whereas Ruth has half of the top 10 best seasons ever, including the top 3.

Ruth had 16 years where he played at least 100 games. This Ohtani season people are calling maybe the best in MLB history, would only be Ruth's 11th best season, and a down year for him.

Let's end with some stats simpler:

Ohtani 2021 OPS: .986
Ruth career OPS: 1.164
Ruth 1919-1924 OPS: 1.262

Ohtani 2021 ERA: 3.31
Babe Ruth career ERA: 2.28

Let's stop comparing a .260 hitter to a dude who hit over .370 for half a dozen seasons, to a dude who hit more home runs than the entire American League in seasons, and to a dude who beats him in almost any stat. And before the argument that Ruth played in an easier time: (1) Ruth didn't chose his era and if it was so much easier, why was he vastly better than ever other player?

I’d like to see Shohei’s numbers against 1920s pitchers and hitters…

White only? Check.
Low velo? Check.
Strength training? Nah.
Hot dogs and beer? Of course.

You can’t compare the hot dogs and beer today to the hot dogs and beer back then.

Today we have hot dogs with out nitrates and you have a wider selection and transparency of what goes into that Weiner. You can get an all beef dog, veggie dog, now of days at most stadiums.

Also beer has healthier options or lower cal options today.

Lol. Good stuff.

dbarmonstar_PSN

@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

Here is an article on Cobb
https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/ty-cobb-numbers-article-1.2466507

Cobb was the greatest all around player ever IMO.

Everyone wants to keep discluding Ruth's pitching.

I did not saying anything about his pitching, IMO which I am entitled to is Cobb, Comparing Cobb to Ruth, is do you value Power over the Best hitter ever to play the game, One of the best base runners ever to play the game, I am not discrediting anything Ruth did but IMO it is COBB so get over it that I think Cobb was the best all around player ever.

All around includes pitching though should it not? Or is that Super all around? We are talking about it in a thread about Ohtani.

I have already stated what I think of Ohtani, We are talking about who had the best season ever and who is the best ever. You know what it comes down to opinion. You all need to get over it that I think it is Cobb. I am not arguing that you are wrong to think it is Ruth. For some reason you do not like that I said Cobb. You two are Homers.

dbarmonstar_PSN

BABE RUTH CONSIDERS TY COBB GREATEST PLAYER EVER.

   Make no mistake about that. The old boy was the greatest player I ever saw or hoped to see. When I was pitching, I had fair success against all the other great hitters, but Cobb was one guy I could never get out.

   I had a reputation for being a slugger and I guess I could hit'em pretty far at that, but that guy Cobb could do everything - better that any player I ever saw. Old Georgia Peach was a great hitter, a spectacular fielder, a wonderful thrower and oh boy how he could run. 

   You think I set a lot of records, why the old boy still owns, how many records is it? 42? 

   They say I used to scare pitchers just by strolling to the plate but those guys always had a remedy for me. Whenever they were afraid I'd knock one out of the park, they'd walk me and their worries would be over. But once Cobb got on base then their worries really began. He would upset not only the pitcher or catcher, but the infield as well by going from first to third on a sacrifice bunt, scoring from second on an infield out, taking two bases on an outfield fly and making delayed steals.

   One of the greatest thrills I ever got out of baseball was to watch Cobb head into a base. He alwas reminded me of Man o' War tearing through the home stretch.

   Fans still talk about the home run I hit in the 1932 World Series off Charley Root of the Cubs after I pointed to the rightfield stands. Well, I once remember Cobb beating out four bunts down the third base line in one game against Billy Bradley, a wonderful third base-man for Cleveland. That was after Cobb warned Bradley he would bunt to him every time he got up. Another time Cobb warned Lou Criger, a great catcher with Boston, that he would steal second, third and home on him first chance he got. Well, the first time up Cobb walked and on three pitches stole second, third and home against the dumbfounded Criger.

   Yes, add that to the fact Cobb led the league twelve times in 13 years, three times with over .400 averages, finished with a lifetime mark of .367 and tops all hitters in total hits, runs, triples, total bases and stolen bases and you have the greatest player of them all.

poksey_MLBTS

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

Here is an article on Cobb
https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/ty-cobb-numbers-article-1.2466507

Cobb was the greatest all around player ever IMO.

Everyone wants to keep discluding Ruth's pitching.

I did not saying anything about his pitching, IMO which I am entitled to is Cobb, Comparing Cobb to Ruth, is do you value Power over the Best hitter ever to play the game, One of the best base runners ever to play the game, I am not discrediting anything Ruth did but IMO it is COBB so get over it that I think Cobb was the best all around player ever.

All around includes pitching though should it not? Or is that Super all around? We are talking about it in a thread about Ohtani.

I have already stated what I think of Ohtani, We are talking about who had the best season ever and who is the best ever. You know what it comes down to opinion. You all need to get over it that I think it is Cobb. I am not arguing that you are wrong to think it is Ruth. For some reason you do not like that I said Cobb. You two are Homers.

LOL

dbarmonstar_PSN

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

BABE RUTH CONSIDERS TY COBB GREATEST PLAYER EVER.

   Make no mistake about that. The old boy was the greatest player I ever saw or hoped to see. When I was pitching, I had fair success against all the other great hitters, but Cobb was one guy I could never get out.

   I had a reputation for being a slugger and I guess I could hit'em pretty far at that, but that guy Cobb could do everything - better that any player I ever saw. Old Georgia Peach was a great hitter, a spectacular fielder, a wonderful thrower and oh boy how he could run. 

   You think I set a lot of records, why the old boy still owns, how many records is it? 42? 

   They say I used to scare pitchers just by strolling to the plate but those guys always had a remedy for me. Whenever they were afraid I'd knock one out of the park, they'd walk me and their worries would be over. But once Cobb got on base then their worries really began. He would upset not only the pitcher or catcher, but the infield as well by going from first to third on a sacrifice bunt, scoring from second on an infield out, taking two bases on an outfield fly and making delayed steals.

   One of the greatest thrills I ever got out of baseball was to watch Cobb head into a base. He alwas reminded me of Man o' War tearing through the home stretch.

   Fans still talk about the home run I hit in the 1932 World Series off Charley Root of the Cubs after I pointed to the rightfield stands. Well, I once remember Cobb beating out four bunts down the third base line in one game against Billy Bradley, a wonderful third base-man for Cleveland. That was after Cobb warned Bradley he would bunt to him every time he got up. Another time Cobb warned Lou Criger, a great catcher with Boston, that he would steal second, third and home on him first chance he got. Well, the first time up Cobb walked and on three pitches stole second, third and home against the dumbfounded Criger.

   Yes, add that to the fact Cobb led the league twelve times in 13 years, three times with over .400 averages, finished with a lifetime mark of .367 and tops all hitters in total hits, runs, triples, total bases and stolen bases and you have the greatest player of them all.

https://www.tycobb.org/babe-ruth-on-ty-cobb

KDClemson_PSN

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

Here is an article on Cobb
https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/ty-cobb-numbers-article-1.2466507

Cobb was the greatest all around player ever IMO.

Everyone wants to keep discluding Ruth's pitching.

I did not saying anything about his pitching, IMO which I am entitled to is Cobb, Comparing Cobb to Ruth, is do you value Power over the Best hitter ever to play the game, One of the best base runners ever to play the game, I am not discrediting anything Ruth did but IMO it is COBB so get over it that I think Cobb was the best all around player ever.

Modern mathematics literally tells us that guys who hit for power but strikeout more are much more valuable that contact hitters who rarely strikeout but hit less HRs.

Thing is, Ruth hit for power while hitting .360 still, it’s not close dude. Cobb is top ten but he’s not one.

KDClemson_PSN

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

It comes down to this: even with pitching and hitting combined, ohtani’s season is still statistically less valuable than many non-combined seasons, both position players and pitchers.

It’s a great season and any team would love to have him, but statistically it’s far from the best season ever. You don’t even have to go back to the old days to find much better seasons.

QFT.

Exactly right. You don't even have to look far to find better overall seasons. He's not even going to sniff any of the seasons of his own teammate (MIKE TROUT!).

Because Mike Trout pitches every fifth day right? I can’t recall the last center fielder to win a Cy Young award and I can’t remember the last time a pitcher hit 40 homers in the same year he won a Cy Young award. But heck that might actually happen this year. And if not this year possibly in the very near future!

Ohtani should not be winning any CY young award this year. We are talking about this year. Only thing that stands out is his HR and RBI in hitting stats, None of his pitching stats stand out, but the fact that he is doing both above avg is impressive, His power numbers will win him a MVP this year. I do not see him being a top pitcher and winning a CY young or deserving a CY Young award. This is what I think. Not an arguement.

You’re good, I was simply stating that Ohtani has the ability and that him winning a Cy young is not out of the realm of possibility if not this year than sometime in the very near future. I did qualify that statement when I posted the reply. I don’t have a horse in this race because I really don’t care what Ohtani does as I’m not angels fan. I do however have great respect for his accomplishments. And regardless of what the OP says there is not a single player in MLB history who has accomplished what Ohtani has done from both disciplines in the same statistical season. Not even the great Babe Ruth. We are witnessing history. I just get ticked when I read these silly posts from this particular OP trying to make asinine comparison between the MLB today and the era of Baseball that Babe Ruth played in. These comparison can’t be made simply because the game has changed too much and the players have evolved to the point that these comparison cannot possibly be quantified. Like I said in previous posts there isn’t a stat out there that can make any of the OP’s comparisons valid. They’re two different generations of the game. Babe was great but would 1920’s version of Babe be the same great player nowadays given the exact same skill set he had back then and would Ohtani given the exact same skill set he has now be on the same playing level as the Babe in 1920. This is not a question that can be answered. This is why the OP’s argument has no basis in reality, because it’s not realistic. This is the OP’s problem, he speaks in hyperbole and uses stats that can’t be properly quantified. He is a homer for the Yankees and is mad because some guy on a show on the MLB network said Ohtani is having one of the greatest seasons ever. Which is that dude’s opinion, which the OP is trying to either discredit or invalidate using today’s saber metrics to make his argument valid which is not valid due to the differences in the game today when compared to the same game 100 years ago. The OP is notorious for these kinds shenanigans. I posted earlier that this dude claimed he could hit major league pitching. Tried to sell another forum post on this and got shredded. He does this stuff all the time.

I understand that, I do not like comparing players from different era's, It does come down to opinion based on stats what one thinks. You can make arguements for a hand full of player's who was the best ever. We can only look at what a player did in time they played and how the game was played with the equipment which they used. If you google Ohtani vs Ruth it is just more than MLB network talking about it. This happens in sports alot especially in Basketball. Others on this forum that are saying Ohtani blah blah blah is what got me started not the OP. I went and looked at Ohtani actual stats and that is where IMO what he can do is impressive but nothing about his stats really stand out. I think for him to be a elite pitcher and win a cy young he would have to step back from hitting. I am not saying it is not possible for him to do but I do not think he is at that level as a pitcher yet and only time will tell. I have stated in Post about how the game has changed as well and how would each play if they were brought up in different era. We really do not know. People seem to assume Ruth would be the same exact person and player that would not be great in today's game as if he would be that person from 1920 that was mind boggling to me. That is like saying Mike Trout going back and playing in 1920 as the player he is today, which he would not be, maybe he would be better, maybe he would have never played baseball in the 1920's. The reality is the comparison of players from today to then is really hard to make.IMO I never saw him play but by the stats Ty Cobb the is the Best, you could say Ted Williams, the man fought 3 years in World War II came back as if he never left that is impressive. Hank Aaron, Barry Bonds (I do not care about the Roids) I agree with the OP that Ohtani is not having one of the Best years ever, What he can do is great and great for baseball, He is very talented and good. How good his career will be we will see. That will depend on health. Not playing a position besides Pitcher does not make him a true two way player, He has 317 games at DH in 4 years and only 14 games as a position player in 4 years.

Huh?

Huh what? Yes Ty Cobb IMO

You said stats say Ty Cobb is the best. This is why I'm asking. What stats can you point to that have Cobb as the best?

All of his stats go look for yourself.

So you mean like hits and batting average or something? Because Ruth beats him in WAR, oWAR, dWAR, OBP, SLG, OPS, OPS+, and Ruth decimates him in stats like WPA.

I would appreciate it if you could clarify your position, as I cant conclude anything close to what you are claiming.

Edit: and this is without including any of Ruth's pitching.

First off i do not need to clarify anything, Go learn the history of the game and what players actually did, Like I said it is my opinion. There are more stats then power numbers and other things to learn about.

Stop being a homer, I Could say Jackie Robinson was the best ever, I could say Koufax or Kershaw was the best pitchers ever if I choose to Stop with the WAR,Owar DWar, You only stated things that Ruth was good at which is power not all the stats. go away now you have your opinion and I have mine.

Babe Ruth literally has 3 MVP seasons worth of WAR more than any player ever

Ruth is 1 in WAR with 183 and Cobb is 6 with 151 is not much of a difference there.

What do you mean not much of a difference? That’s like 4 MVP seasons better than Cobb don’t tell me there’s not a huge difference there

dbarmonstar_PSN

@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

Here is an article on Cobb
https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/ty-cobb-numbers-article-1.2466507

Cobb was the greatest all around player ever IMO.

Everyone wants to keep discluding Ruth's pitching.

I did not saying anything about his pitching, IMO which I am entitled to is Cobb, Comparing Cobb to Ruth, is do you value Power over the Best hitter ever to play the game, One of the best base runners ever to play the game, I am not discrediting anything Ruth did but IMO it is COBB so get over it that I think Cobb was the best all around player ever.

Modern mathematics literally tells us that guys who hit for power but strikeout more are much more valuable that contact hitters who rarely strikeout but hit less HRs.

Thing is, Ruth hit for power while hitting .360 still, it’s not close dude. Cobb is top ten but he’s not one.

Ruth himself said it. Read the Article yourself and think what you want. Cobb is the greatest IMO get over it and move on

dbarmonstar_PSN

@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

Here is an article on Cobb
https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/ty-cobb-numbers-article-1.2466507

Cobb was the greatest all around player ever IMO.

Everyone wants to keep discluding Ruth's pitching.

I did not saying anything about his pitching, IMO which I am entitled to is Cobb, Comparing Cobb to Ruth, is do you value Power over the Best hitter ever to play the game, One of the best base runners ever to play the game, I am not discrediting anything Ruth did but IMO it is COBB so get over it that I think Cobb was the best all around player ever.

Modern mathematics literally tells us that guys who hit for power but strikeout more are much more valuable that contact hitters who rarely strikeout but hit less HRs.

Thing is, Ruth hit for power while hitting .360 still, it’s not close dude. Cobb is top ten but he’s not one.

Can you prove that or is that your opinion, I presented my side with what I think based off facts and as well as what Ruth said about Cobb himself.

writetoshawn_PSN

@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@bob_loblaw1984 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

Articles are being posted every day about Ohtani having the "Greatest Season Ever". Ohtani is about to hit the impressive 9 WAR in a season club, this is an elite club that certainly gives credit to this argument, right.

Ohtani's season is on track to be 130th all-time in WAR. For my non-sabermetrics guys, that basically means it isn't the greatest season ever, it isn't even close.

But who has the greatest season ever? Babe Ruth in 1923, the man who Ohtani is often compared to, with a 14.2 WAR season, more WAR than Ohtani has amassed in his MLB career.

How about the 2nd greatest season ever? That goes to a man by the name of Babe Ruth, who in 1921 posted a 12.9 WAR season.

How about the 3rd greatest season ever? That title goes to little-known former superstar by the name of George, George Herman, or as you may know him... Babe Ruth, with 12.6 WAR in 1927.

As a matter of fact, 5 of the 10 greatest seasons ever, and 6 of the top 11, belong to Babe Ruth.

So Shohei Ohtani, "The Next Babe Ruth" is on pace to have the 130th best season ever, whereas Ruth has half of the top 10 best seasons ever, including the top 3.

Ruth had 16 years where he played at least 100 games. This Ohtani season people are calling maybe the best in MLB history, would only be Ruth's 11th best season, and a down year for him.

Let's end with some stats simpler:

Ohtani 2021 OPS: .986
Ruth career OPS: 1.164
Ruth 1919-1924 OPS: 1.262

Ohtani 2021 ERA: 3.31
Babe Ruth career ERA: 2.28

Let's stop comparing a .260 hitter to a dude who hit over .370 for half a dozen seasons, to a dude who hit more home runs than the entire American League in seasons, and to a dude who beats him in almost any stat. And before the argument that Ruth played in an easier time: (1) Ruth didn't chose his era and if it was so much easier, why was he vastly better than ever other player?

I’d like to see Shohei’s numbers against 1920s pitchers and hitters…

White only? Check.
Low velo? Check.
Strength training? Nah.
Hot dogs and beer? Of course.

You can’t compare the hot dogs and beer today to the hot dogs and beer back then.

Today we have hot dogs with out nitrates and you have a wider selection and transparency of what goes into that Weiner. You can get an all beef dog, veggie dog, now of days at most stadiums.

Also beer has healthier options or lower cal options today.

But did they have India Pale Ale back then?

KDClemson_PSN

@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

Here is an article on Cobb
https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/ty-cobb-numbers-article-1.2466507

Cobb was the greatest all around player ever IMO.

Everyone wants to keep discluding Ruth's pitching.

I did not saying anything about his pitching, IMO which I am entitled to is Cobb, Comparing Cobb to Ruth, is do you value Power over the Best hitter ever to play the game, One of the best base runners ever to play the game, I am not discrediting anything Ruth did but IMO it is COBB so get over it that I think Cobb was the best all around player ever.

All around includes pitching though should it not? Or is that Super all around? We are talking about it in a thread about Ohtani.

I have already stated what I think of Ohtani, We are talking about who had the best season ever and who is the best ever. You know what it comes down to opinion. You all need to get over it that I think it is Cobb. I am not arguing that you are wrong to think it is Ruth. For some reason you do not like that I said Cobb. You two are Homers.

LOL

We’re homers for thinking the guy with 32 more WAR is better, hear that?

For reference that’s the same WAR difference between Derek Jeter and Jason Heyward.

I can’t tell if your trolling by this point, you even cited that he’s 6th in WAR all time and still think he’s the best

KDClemson_PSN

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

Here is an article on Cobb
https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/ty-cobb-numbers-article-1.2466507

Cobb was the greatest all around player ever IMO.

Everyone wants to keep discluding Ruth's pitching.

I did not saying anything about his pitching, IMO which I am entitled to is Cobb, Comparing Cobb to Ruth, is do you value Power over the Best hitter ever to play the game, One of the best base runners ever to play the game, I am not discrediting anything Ruth did but IMO it is COBB so get over it that I think Cobb was the best all around player ever.

Modern mathematics literally tells us that guys who hit for power but strikeout more are much more valuable that contact hitters who rarely strikeout but hit less HRs.

Thing is, Ruth hit for power while hitting .360 still, it’s not close dude. Cobb is top ten but he’s not one.

Can you prove that or is that your opinion, I presented my side with what I think based off facts and as well as what Ruth said about Cobb himself.

Can I prove that modern math values power with strikeouts over contact? Yeah it’s called WAR.
Joey Gallo is batting .201 and he’s having an amazing season this year, 4.1 WAR so far.

Or an even better comparison, using the actual players. Ruth has 32 more WAR than Cobb, that’s a huge difference

writetoshawn_PSN

WAR - what is it good for? Absolutely nothing.

dbarmonstar_PSN

@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

Here is an article on Cobb
https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/ty-cobb-numbers-article-1.2466507

Cobb was the greatest all around player ever IMO.

Everyone wants to keep discluding Ruth's pitching.

I did not saying anything about his pitching, IMO which I am entitled to is Cobb, Comparing Cobb to Ruth, is do you value Power over the Best hitter ever to play the game, One of the best base runners ever to play the game, I am not discrediting anything Ruth did but IMO it is COBB so get over it that I think Cobb was the best all around player ever.

All around includes pitching though should it not? Or is that Super all around? We are talking about it in a thread about Ohtani.

I have already stated what I think of Ohtani, We are talking about who had the best season ever and who is the best ever. You know what it comes down to opinion. You all need to get over it that I think it is Cobb. I am not arguing that you are wrong to think it is Ruth. For some reason you do not like that I said Cobb. You two are Homers.

LOL

We’re homers for thinking the guy with 32 more WAR is better, hear that?

For reference that’s the same WAR difference between Derek Jeter and Jason Heyward.

I can’t tell if your trolling by this point, you even cited that he’s 6th in WAR all time and still think he’s the best

Trolling I am not trolling you asked me remember why I said Cobb, you refuse to accept my opinion. I found an article that Ruth said it himself. You two are the ones Trolling. As long as you want to keep going we can, I do not think at this point there is much more to say, You should respect my opinion and move on, I have no problem that you say it is Ruth for some reason you can not get over why I said it is Cobb. At the end of the day it is an opinion is it not.

JellyRoll198_PSN

@writetoshawn_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@bob_loblaw1984 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

Articles are being posted every day about Ohtani having the "Greatest Season Ever". Ohtani is about to hit the impressive 9 WAR in a season club, this is an elite club that certainly gives credit to this argument, right.

Ohtani's season is on track to be 130th all-time in WAR. For my non-sabermetrics guys, that basically means it isn't the greatest season ever, it isn't even close.

But who has the greatest season ever? Babe Ruth in 1923, the man who Ohtani is often compared to, with a 14.2 WAR season, more WAR than Ohtani has amassed in his MLB career.

How about the 2nd greatest season ever? That goes to a man by the name of Babe Ruth, who in 1921 posted a 12.9 WAR season.

How about the 3rd greatest season ever? That title goes to little-known former superstar by the name of George, George Herman, or as you may know him... Babe Ruth, with 12.6 WAR in 1927.

As a matter of fact, 5 of the 10 greatest seasons ever, and 6 of the top 11, belong to Babe Ruth.

So Shohei Ohtani, "The Next Babe Ruth" is on pace to have the 130th best season ever, whereas Ruth has half of the top 10 best seasons ever, including the top 3.

Ruth had 16 years where he played at least 100 games. This Ohtani season people are calling maybe the best in MLB history, would only be Ruth's 11th best season, and a down year for him.

Let's end with some stats simpler:

Ohtani 2021 OPS: .986
Ruth career OPS: 1.164
Ruth 1919-1924 OPS: 1.262

Ohtani 2021 ERA: 3.31
Babe Ruth career ERA: 2.28

Let's stop comparing a .260 hitter to a dude who hit over .370 for half a dozen seasons, to a dude who hit more home runs than the entire American League in seasons, and to a dude who beats him in almost any stat. And before the argument that Ruth played in an easier time: (1) Ruth didn't chose his era and if it was so much easier, why was he vastly better than ever other player?

I’d like to see Shohei’s numbers against 1920s pitchers and hitters…

White only? Check.
Low velo? Check.
Strength training? Nah.
Hot dogs and beer? Of course.

You can’t compare the hot dogs and beer today to the hot dogs and beer back then.

Today we have hot dogs with out nitrates and you have a wider selection and transparency of what goes into that Weiner. You can get an all beef dog, veggie dog, now of days at most stadiums.

Also beer has healthier options or lower cal options today.

But did they have India Pale Ale back

Yes they did! IPAs were popular by the early 1800s in England and certainly found fans in America by the 20th Century. Though prohibition would have slowed it’s growth in the States.

poksey_MLBTS

@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

Here is an article on Cobb
https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/ty-cobb-numbers-article-1.2466507

Cobb was the greatest all around player ever IMO.

Everyone wants to keep discluding Ruth's pitching.

I did not saying anything about his pitching, IMO which I am entitled to is Cobb, Comparing Cobb to Ruth, is do you value Power over the Best hitter ever to play the game, One of the best base runners ever to play the game, I am not discrediting anything Ruth did but IMO it is COBB so get over it that I think Cobb was the best all around player ever.

Modern mathematics literally tells us that guys who hit for power but strikeout more are much more valuable that contact hitters who rarely strikeout but hit less HRs.

Thing is, Ruth hit for power while hitting .360 still, it’s not close dude. Cobb is top ten but he’s not one.

Can you prove that or is that your opinion, I presented my side with what I think based off facts and as well as what Ruth said about Cobb himself.

Can I prove that modern math values power with strikeouts over contact? Yeah it’s called WAR.
Joey Gallo is batting .201 and he’s having an amazing season this year, 4.1 WAR so far.

Or an even better comparison, using the actual players. Ruth has 32 more WAR than Cobb, that’s a huge difference

He would have Richie Ashburn as a better hitter than Trout under his qualifications. Higher BA, more hits, lower Ks.

KDClemson_PSN

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":

Here is an article on Cobb
https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/ty-cobb-numbers-article-1.2466507

Cobb was the greatest all around player ever IMO.

Everyone wants to keep discluding Ruth's pitching.

I did not saying anything about his pitching, IMO which I am entitled to is Cobb, Comparing Cobb to Ruth, is do you value Power over the Best hitter ever to play the game, One of the best base runners ever to play the game, I am not discrediting anything Ruth did but IMO it is COBB so get over it that I think Cobb was the best all around player ever.

All around includes pitching though should it not? Or is that Super all around? We are talking about it in a thread about Ohtani.

I have already stated what I think of Ohtani, We are talking about who had the best season ever and who is the best ever. You know what it comes down to opinion. You all need to get over it that I think it is Cobb. I am not arguing that you are wrong to think it is Ruth. For some reason you do not like that I said Cobb. You two are Homers.

LOL

We’re homers for thinking the guy with 32 more WAR is better, hear that?

For reference that’s the same WAR difference between Derek Jeter and Jason Heyward.

I can’t tell if your trolling by this point, you even cited that he’s 6th in WAR all time and still think he’s the best

Trolling I am not trolling you asked me remember why I said Cobb, you refuse to accept my opinion. I found an article that Ruth said it himself. You two are the ones Trolling. As long as you want to keep going we can, I do not think at this point there is much more to say, You should respect my opinion and move on, I have no problem that you say it is Ruth for some reason you can not get over why I said it is Cobb. At the end of the day it is an opinion is it not.

I accept that it’s your opinion, I also know that it’s wrong. My opinion could be that Brett Gardner is better than Ty Cobb and it would be a bad take if math and stats proves me wrong.

Like that’s like you showing me the stats that say Cobb is better than Gardner and I’m just responding with “Yes but my opinion is that Gardner is better” that’s not how debates work.

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Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever"