Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever"
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@chuckclc_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lets not pretend WAR is the end all be all of evaluating a player. How well did Babe pitch in those seasons? Babe definitely has the most impressive hitting numbers of all time, but when you add in Pitching and Speed it does become a legit argument between the 2.
Plus of course the obvious 100 hundred year difference in athletic era. Apples and Oranges.
Between hitting, pitching and speed.
Babe was miles better hitting, miles better pitching, and slightly worse if that in speed. -
Babe Ruth never hit and pitched full time in the same season. Could maybe make an argument for 1919. Also, the game evolves. Babe didn’t play against the shift, analytical tendencies, and let alone had players from majority one race playing against him.
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@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@chuckclc_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lets not pretend WAR is the end all be all of evaluating a player. How well did Babe pitch in those seasons? Babe definitely has the most impressive hitting numbers of all time, but when you add in Pitching and Speed it does become a legit argument between the 2.
Plus of course the obvious 100 hundred year difference in athletic era. Apples and Oranges.
WAR is the best way to judge the value of a player overall to his team and the best way of comparing him to his peers. Let’s talk pitching. Ruth had a nearly 9 WAR pitching season in 1916. Ohtani isn’t coming anywhere near that. It was 6.5 in 1917. Again, he’s not coming anywhere that. Can we just appreciate Ohtani for what he is and stop with the over the top exaggerations about his play. He’s been good. He’s been very valuable. It’s a great story. He’s probably going to win MVP. As far as all time greatest seasons, at this point he’s not in the same ballpark.
Exactly
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@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
Ruth didn’t choose when he was born + if it was so easy back then why was Ruth still so much better than his peers
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@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
Ruth didn’t choose era he got to play in + if it was so much easier back then why was Ruth still so much more dominant that his peers. This is a bad argument no matter what sport it is and it’s usually used to discredit any non recent players
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@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
And yet we have stats that do just that.
And we will always keeps track of stats. However a logical person would realize the 100 years that seperate the 2 athletes and realize that the game, like everything in life, has evolved.
If you want to go with the Argument "we have stats" then tell me, how long until someone breaks cy youngs 511 wins?
I’m not even sure what you’re trying to argue here. We have developed stats that measure the value of players between their contemporaries and players of different eras. We have them so we don’t have to rely solely on counting stats like wins. No one is going to break the wins records obviously. But that is based, more so, on reasons outside of the current players control.
Like literally we have stats made to adjust for this, and the bottom line is it isn’t even close. Why can’t we appreciate that what Ohtani is doing is cool while also acknowledging it’s not the greatest season ever and likely not top 100
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@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
And yet we have stats that do just that.
Think of how sick Ruth, Cobb, and the early greats would have been if they knew about the benefits of good nutrition, weight training, had video access to every pitcher and all of their at bats, and didn't have to get jobs in the off season?
Also, the health concerns of alcohol and tobacco use, and poor diet.
Remember, weight training was taboo in all sports expect football until the late 80's.
I think those guys would be just fine playing today. -
@misfits_138_1_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
And yet we have stats that do just that.
Think of how sick Ruth, Cobb, and the early greats would have been if they knew about the benefits of good nutrition, weight training, had video access to every pitcher and all of their at bats, and didn't have to get jobs in the off season?
Also, the health concerns of alcohol and tobacco use, and poor diet.
Remember, weight training was taboo in all sports expect football until the late 80's.
I think those guys would be just fine playing today.The thing is a lot of principals of modern swing mechanics come from Ruth too, his stance looked weird but a lot of the weight shifting and techniques along with it were decades ahead of its time
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@misfits_138_1_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
And yet we have stats that do just that.
Think of how sick Ruth, Cobb, and the early greats would have been if they knew about the benefits of good nutrition, weight training, had video access to every pitcher and all of their at bats, and didn't have to get jobs in the off season?
Also, the health concerns of alcohol and tobacco use, and poor diet.
Remember, weight training was taboo in all sports expect football until the late 80's.
I think those guys would be just fine playing today.The thing is a lot of principals of modern swing mechanics come from Ruth too, his stance looked weird but a lot of the weight shifting and techniques along with it were decades ahead of its time
This.
And Ted Williams literally wrote the book on the modern swing, still considered the ultimate book on hitting.
And I agree, Ruth revolutionized the uppercut swing, using your hips, and hand speed. -
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
Ruth didn’t choose when he was born + if it was so easy back then why was Ruth still so much better than his peers
Guys like Feller and Koufax, Gibson, and Matthewson WERE throwing 95+ right off the farm.
Different game though.
Those guys used wicked movement and control.
Today, pitchers are such great athletes that they 100+ with movement.
Games evolve. -
@misfits_138_1_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
Ruth didn’t choose when he was born + if it was so easy back then why was Ruth still so much better than his peers
Guys like Feller and Koufax, Gibson, and Matthewson WERE throwing 95+ right off the farm.
Different game though.
Those guys used wicked movement and control.
Today, pitchers are such great athletes that they 100+ with movement.
Games evolve.The games evolve but when it comes down to it you compare players to the guys the played against and shouldn’t discredit old legends just because they played in a different era, that isn’t fair
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@misfits_138_1_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
Ruth didn’t choose when he was born + if it was so easy back then why was Ruth still so much better than his peers
Guys like Feller and Koufax, Gibson, and Matthewson WERE throwing 95+ right off the farm.
Different game though.
Those guys used wicked movement and control.
Today, pitchers are such great athletes that they 100+ with movement.
Games evolve.The games evolve but when it comes down to it you compare players to the guys the played against and shouldn’t discredit old legends just because they played in a different era, that isn’t fair
I would never discredit the accomplishments of past athletes, but the argument you brought up was greatest SEASON. Ruth never pitched and hit in the same season. Cannot take parts of his career and combine them. That is why Ohtani's is so impressive. As a season, like I said before, I think people who think it is possibly the greatest have an argument.
I myself would probably take Ruths 1921 season over Ohtanis 2021.
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@chuckclc_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@misfits_138_1_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
Ruth didn’t choose when he was born + if it was so easy back then why was Ruth still so much better than his peers
Guys like Feller and Koufax, Gibson, and Matthewson WERE throwing 95+ right off the farm.
Different game though.
Those guys used wicked movement and control.
Today, pitchers are such great athletes that they 100+ with movement.
Games evolve.The games evolve but when it comes down to it you compare players to the guys the played against and shouldn’t discredit old legends just because they played in a different era, that isn’t fair
I would never discredit the accomplishments of past athletes, but the argument you brought up was greatest SEASON. Ruth never pitched and hit in the same season. Cannot take parts of his career and combine them. That is why Ohtani's is so impressive. As a season, like I said before, I think people who think it is possibly the greatest have an argument.
I myself would probably take Ruths 1921 season over Ohtanis 2021.
But we have stats that value that and all 3 different variations of the stat say that Ohtani’s season isn’t even top 100 which is where credibility is lost for the argument. Pitchers have had better seasons than Ohtani’s combined season and hitters alone have had much better seasons than Ohtani’s combined season
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@chuckclc_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@misfits_138_1_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
Ruth didn’t choose when he was born + if it was so easy back then why was Ruth still so much better than his peers
Guys like Feller and Koufax, Gibson, and Matthewson WERE throwing 95+ right off the farm.
Different game though.
Those guys used wicked movement and control.
Today, pitchers are such great athletes that they 100+ with movement.
Games evolve.The games evolve but when it comes down to it you compare players to the guys the played against and shouldn’t discredit old legends just because they played in a different era, that isn’t fair
I would never discredit the accomplishments of past athletes, but the argument you brought up was greatest SEASON. Ruth never pitched and hit in the same season. Cannot take parts of his career and combine them. That is why Ohtani's is so impressive. As a season, like I said before, I think people who think it is possibly the greatest have an argument.
I myself would probably take Ruths 1921 season over Ohtanis 2021.
You also have to decide how much value is contributed by Ohtani being elite at both while only taking up one roster spot, which we don't have numbers for yet.
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@iijackinthboxii said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@chuckclc_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@misfits_138_1_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
Ruth didn’t choose when he was born + if it was so easy back then why was Ruth still so much better than his peers
Guys like Feller and Koufax, Gibson, and Matthewson WERE throwing 95+ right off the farm.
Different game though.
Those guys used wicked movement and control.
Today, pitchers are such great athletes that they 100+ with movement.
Games evolve.The games evolve but when it comes down to it you compare players to the guys the played against and shouldn’t discredit old legends just because they played in a different era, that isn’t fair
I would never discredit the accomplishments of past athletes, but the argument you brought up was greatest SEASON. Ruth never pitched and hit in the same season. Cannot take parts of his career and combine them. That is why Ohtani's is so impressive. As a season, like I said before, I think people who think it is possibly the greatest have an argument.
I myself would probably take Ruths 1921 season over Ohtanis 2021.
You also have to decide how much value is contributed by Ohtani being elite at both while only taking up one roster spot, which we don't have numbers for yet.
Even if there was an argument to be made here, we have 26 man rosters now. Ruth didn’t.
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@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@iijackinthboxii said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@chuckclc_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@misfits_138_1_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
Ruth didn’t choose when he was born + if it was so easy back then why was Ruth still so much better than his peers
Guys like Feller and Koufax, Gibson, and Matthewson WERE throwing 95+ right off the farm.
Different game though.
Those guys used wicked movement and control.
Today, pitchers are such great athletes that they 100+ with movement.
Games evolve.The games evolve but when it comes down to it you compare players to the guys the played against and shouldn’t discredit old legends just because they played in a different era, that isn’t fair
I would never discredit the accomplishments of past athletes, but the argument you brought up was greatest SEASON. Ruth never pitched and hit in the same season. Cannot take parts of his career and combine them. That is why Ohtani's is so impressive. As a season, like I said before, I think people who think it is possibly the greatest have an argument.
I myself would probably take Ruths 1921 season over Ohtanis 2021.
You also have to decide how much value is contributed by Ohtani being elite at both while only taking up one roster spot, which we don't have numbers for yet.
Even if there was an argument to be made here, we have 26 man rosters now. Ruth didn’t.
Are you saying there isn't an argument to be made here? As if having not 1, but 2 less replacement level players on the team isn't valuable?
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Yeah but did ohtani face plumbers and electricians every night or did he face actual big league pitchers. Let’s not forget that was before the color barrier was even broken soooo
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You can't compare the two. Babe Ruth wasn't playing against the best of the best, whereas Ohtani is facing people who have been playing this game their entire lives and were bred for beisbol. Ohtani is doing what he's doing vs the best players to play the sport.
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@ikasnu_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
You can't compare the two. Babe Ruth wasn't playing against the best of the best, whereas Ohtani is facing people who have been playing this game their entire lives and were bred for beisbol. Ohtani is doing what he's doing vs the best players to play the sport.
You said you can't compare the two... Then you did.
It's a fun argument, but it's just that.
Give Ohtani a glove the size of his hand, a bat that weighs 75lbs., and have him hit a ball caked in tobacco juice-- they didn't throw out every ball that had a miniscule blemish on it back then.
Different eras, different equipment, different rules, even different balls.I know one thing: Ruth played a barnstorming game in my hometown and hit his unofficial longest homer at a place called Artillery Park.
Google it.
There's a monument where it landed and the field is still there as well.
The official distance is 625ft, but it was closer to 650ft.
The historian who authenticated it called it 625ft because he said no one would believe 650ft.
Not bad with primitive equipment and an American Legion pitcher throwing about 80mph! -
Here's a little context that you always conveniently leave out to color your biased arguments;
1921 was Babe Ruth's 8th season in the Majors.
1923 was Babe Ruth's 10th season in the Majors.
1927 was Babe Ruth's 14th season in the Majors.2021 is Ohtani's 4th season in the Majors while missing significant time in each of his first 3 seasons.
I'm not even gonna go into the obvious arguments of the level of competition both played.
If you think a fat, smoking alcoholic who lit up janitors for a living was actually a better player than super athlete Shohei Ohtani, then your bias is completely laughable and you are blinded by name and legendary status.
