When are we getting a “next gen” game?
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@red_ted_is_back said in When are we getting a “next gen” game?:
@sean_87__psn said in When are we getting a “next gen” game?:
Is there a timeline when we will actually see this game based off actual physics and not player ratings? It’s 2021 and physics engines have been out for over a decade now (euphoria). All the data is available these days, so why not use it to make a realistic game? We basically get the same game every year with minor tweaks. We don’t even have collision detection between players in this game. This is basic stuff. Everything is captured on video, it’s just data input. We know how fast someone runs, throws, swings a bat etc. Im no expert on hardware, but I imagine this could be done on these new consoles. It’s 2021, player ratings should be a thing of the past.
Im missing something. What would the gameplay look like without player ratings? How would the game or its users be able to differentiate between say de Grom and Matz or Trout and Astudillo?
Not saying you’re wrong, just trying to get a better picture of what you mean.
I thought I was clear, but I will try again. Instead of arbitrary ratings put on a scale from 1-99 or for this games sake 1-125 in some cases, actually have real data. For instance, instead of a “speed rating”, it should be how fast a player accelerates in time and what their top speed is in mph. “Player ratings” are subjective, this kind of data is not, therefore presenting an accurate representation of a player. All this data is available already, they just need to stop using outdated technology.
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#statcast ratings
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https://www.mlb.com/news/how-mlb-the-show-rates-players
They are using the data, but in order to be able to create a game, the data is converted to ratings. Yes there is some judgment in terms of how the algorithm is written to actually get the rating, but that is simply so the game work with the numbers (eg using 3 years data and the weightings of those years).
What would you suggest as an alternative to the current method?
What about this as an example: using a player’s slugging percentage to determine how many extra base hits they will get, or using their HRs for the last season to determine the number of HRs they hit in the current season.
I don’t see my examples working but I’d like to know what your thoughts are on how using the data could work. I’m all for exploring better ways of doing things.
Also, with multi-year modes (Franchise, RTTS and hopefully Leagues), how would player progression and regression fit into it?
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They need to use an actual physics engine to make the proper inputs. For speed, like I said above, is measured in time and top speed. Vertical jump measured in inches. Bat speed, throwing velocity, and everything else can be quantified. When we look at a player on a game, we should not see 99 speed, we should see the time measured in seconds it takes to reach their top speed measured in mph. How many seconds does it take them to reach first, second, third, etc. All these sports games are using outdated technology. It’s 2021, time for an upgrade. All info is captured on video, you just need some people that know math to do some of the calculations.
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On April 16, 2021
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Lol no we are not. They would have to start over using a physics engine. You can’t build a sturdy house on a false foundation. I’m not sure when these sports game makers will make the switch. Every single one of them still use scale ratings which is so outdated.
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@sean_87__psn said in When are we getting a “next gen” game?:
They need to use an actual physics engine to make the proper inputs. For speed, like I said above, is measured in time and top speed. Vertical jump measured in inches. Bat speed, throwing velocity, and everything else can be quantified. When we look at a player on a game, we should not see 99 speed, we should see the time measured in seconds it takes to reach their top speed measured in mph. How many seconds does it take them to reach first, second, third, etc. All these sports games are using outdated technology. It’s 2021, time for an upgrade. All info is captured on video, you just need some people that know math to do some of the calculations.
But isn’t that basically the same thing? Using numbers to create the in-game actions. Given that the numbers, according to the link I posted above, come from that real life statcast data.
The calculations are already done and presented to us as the ratings.
Is your suggestion that we should be given the statcast data to view instead of the numbers (and gameplay continues as is)? That I can understand.
I wonder if they are prevented from sharing that data in the game due to ownership of the data.
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@sean_87__psn said in When are we getting a “next gen” game?:
@ikasnu_psn said in When are we getting a “next gen” game?:
My best estimation would be MLBTS 2022 will be the first true next gen iteration whereas previous gens will be stuck with whatever version 21 turns out to be.
I’m not really sure what the hold up is. I mean all the sports games are so outdated. Not one of them uses real world data input. It’s 2021 and we still have “player ratings”.
They'd need to build, or retweak the current system to better match the current gen specs.
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They would have to use a physics engine to do it right. No sports game company currently uses a true physics based engine. If they did, you would not see the rating scale. For example, you would see everything measured in inches, feet, seconds, mph etc
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I’m not even sure the scaling of players and the fields is correct in this game. I notice from year to year, the players look scaled differently relative to field size.
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@sean_87__psn said in When are we getting a “next gen” game?:
They would have to use a physics engine to do it right. No sports game company currently uses a true physics based engine. If they did, you would not see the rating scale. For example, you would see everything measured in inches, feet, seconds, mph etc
The ratings do make the user’s evaluations of each player much simpler than if we were given their stats. This is is a game where around 80% of the user base are casual players, after all (Pareto Principle, no hard data to back that up). If those casuals are given hard data to interpret to make decisions, you’d lose them.
If a casual (an online casual noob with a hot pocket and Fanta, if you will) just wants to sub in a pinch runner, what do you think makes the decision easier, especially if playing an online game with the pause timer counting down:
- checking a player’s steal rating and speed rating, or
- having to check take-off acceleration, speed from 1st to 2nd, number of successful steal attempts, how many times they’ve been picked off, what their usual lead is...
That’s per player on the bench, too.
Those are just random factors that popped into my head but hopefully you get what I’m saying.
TL,DR: ratings make the game more accessible to its users.
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@red_ted_is_back said in When are we getting a “next gen” game?:
@sean_87__psn said in When are we getting a “next gen” game?:
They would have to use a physics engine to do it right. No sports game company currently uses a true physics based engine. If they did, you would not see the rating scale. For example, you would see everything measured in inches, feet, seconds, mph etc
The ratings do make the user’s evaluations of each player much simpler than if we were given their stats. This is is a game where around 80% of the user base are casual players, after all (Pareto Principle, no hard data to back that up). If those casuals are given hard data to interpret to make decisions, you’d lose them.
If a casual (an online casual noob with a hot pocket and Fanta, if you will) just wants to sub in a pinch runner, what do you think makes the decision easier, especially if playing an online game with the pause timer counting down:
- checking a player’s steal rating and speed rating, or
- having to check take-off acceleration, speed from 1st to 2nd, number of successful steal attempts, how many times they’ve been picked off, what their usual lead is...
That’s per player on the bench, too.
Those are just random factors that popped into my head but hopefully you get what I’m saying.
TL,DR: ratings make the game more accessible to its users.
I understand your point, but I think a casual would be going off names he knows more than anything else. You could always put suggestions to help players make decisions. All I want is an accurate representation of the player’s and physics is the only way to do that. No other way around that one.
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@sean_87__psn said in When are we getting a “next gen” game?:
They would have to use a physics engine to do it right. No sports game company currently uses a true physics based engine. If they did, you would not see the rating scale. For example, you would see everything measured in inches, feet, seconds, mph etc
Dude no one cares that much
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@medieval9029_xbl said in When are we getting a “next gen” game?:
@sean_87__psn said in When are we getting a “next gen” game?:
They would have to use a physics engine to do it right. No sports game company currently uses a true physics based engine. If they did, you would not see the rating scale. For example, you would see everything measured in inches, feet, seconds, mph etc
Dude no one cares that much
As fun as it would be, this.
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@medieval9029_xbl said in When are we getting a “next gen” game?:
@sean_87__psn said in When are we getting a “next gen” game?:
They would have to use a physics engine to do it right. No sports game company currently uses a true physics based engine. If they did, you would not see the rating scale. For example, you would see everything measured in inches, feet, seconds, mph etc
Dude no one cares that much
Maybe you are right. That’s probably why the games don’t really improve mechanically from year to year.
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I’m right there with you! I was really expecting way more.in terms of better physics and graphics for next gen. I still can’t believe collisions aren’t even in the game yet. Yikes
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@sean_87__psn said in When are we getting a “next gen” game?:
@medieval9029_xbl said in When are we getting a “next gen” game?:
@sean_87__psn said in When are we getting a “next gen” game?:
They would have to use a physics engine to do it right. No sports game company currently uses a true physics based engine. If they did, you would not see the rating scale. For example, you would see everything measured in inches, feet, seconds, mph etc
Dude no one cares that much
Maybe you are right. That’s probably why the games don’t really improve mechanically from year to year.
Games don't drastically change from year to year but they are just that, year to year. It's just not enough development time for the size of the team to make such dramatic changes
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@rabid55wolverine said in When are we getting a “next gen” game?:
@sean_87__psn said in When are we getting a “next gen” game?:
@medieval9029_xbl said in When are we getting a “next gen” game?:
@sean_87__psn said in When are we getting a “next gen” game?:
They would have to use a physics engine to do it right. No sports game company currently uses a true physics based engine. If they did, you would not see the rating scale. For example, you would see everything measured in inches, feet, seconds, mph etc
Dude no one cares that much
Maybe you are right. That’s probably why the games don’t really improve mechanically from year to year.
Games don't drastically change from year to year but they are just that, year to year. It's just not enough development time for the size of the team to make such dramatic changes
I understand that, but the game doesn’t really even change every 4-5 years mechanically speaking. Sure, the graphics are updated, but gameplay wise it’s just a tweak here and there. They would have to build from ground up using a physics engine. My whole point was that they are using outdated technology and methods. Don’t you think at some point it’s time to upgrade?
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We won't see a major mechanical change in the game until they stop making the game for the previous gen (ps4). For the ps3 to ps4 it took 3 years for that to happen. In MLB 17 we finally got ball physics. Going on history, the game wont be next gen only until 2024 where we can fully utilize ps5 hardware. So no big changes for 3 years. Yeah, pretty crazy how much the ps4 is going to hold improvements back.
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@sean_87__psn said in When are we getting a “next gen” game?:
@rabid55wolverine said in When are we getting a “next gen” game?:
@sean_87__psn said in When are we getting a “next gen” game?:
@medieval9029_xbl said in When are we getting a “next gen” game?:
@sean_87__psn said in When are we getting a “next gen” game?:
They would have to use a physics engine to do it right. No sports game company currently uses a true physics based engine. If they did, you would not see the rating scale. For example, you would see everything measured in inches, feet, seconds, mph etc
Dude no one cares that much
Maybe you are right. That’s probably why the games don’t really improve mechanically from year to year.
Games don't drastically change from year to year but they are just that, year to year. It's just not enough development time for the size of the team to make such dramatic changes
I understand that, but the game doesn’t really even change every 4-5 years mechanically speaking. Sure, the graphics are updated, but gameplay wise it’s just a tweak here and there. They would have to build from ground up using a physics engine. My whole point was that they are using outdated technology and methods. Don’t you think at some point it’s time to upgrade?
Yes I think it is time for an upgrade but what your asking for is a massive, massive thing to undertake and quite impossible in a year to year cycle. I haven't done it but I'm pretty sure there is big differences between 15 and 20 if you go back and play the 2 games. Graphically and game play wise. Overall, the game looks similar yes but there is differences. If you played 15 for 5 years and jumped into 20, im sure it would feel like a huge improvement.
I dont know about things like real world stuff that players will be based on. How would you do DD with old time players? I doubt there is true real statistical information to create players from the 20s. Or possibly the negro leagues, there is such spotty information about that so diamond dynasty would be just live teams? They will not nor should they have different versions of the game for DD and say franchise so what you are asking for isn't really on the plate at all to replace ratings and I seriously doubt that it will happen in the near future either. Ratings will probably always be around.
