It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties
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@CalisGW said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
@LankyRyan said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
@CalisGW said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
Ummmm, This is Diamond Dynasty. We play with people who have been dead for over 50 years. Whining about secondary penalties and what positions listed as secondary is important?
Smh. Kids these days
Yeah, okay. Suggesting an improvement is whining.
Thanks for taking the time to actually whine instead of having any sort of input at all, gramps.
Your whole argument is that secondary positions in how it currently is implemented is not realistic. My counter point was that WE ARE PLAYING WITH DEAD PEOPLE. Had to put in caps because it flew over your head the first time.
No, my argument is that the current system is arbitrary and needs to be revised, hence the title of this thread and its subsequent contents.
Don't disguise your angry ramblings as a counter point. You're not making a counter point. You just need to be a [censored] somewhere and I guess I'm the lucky winner.
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@CalisGW said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
@LankyRyan said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
@CalisGW said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
Ummmm, This is Diamond Dynasty. We play with people who have been dead for over 50 years. Whining about secondary penalties and what positions listed as secondary is important?
Smh. Kids these days
Yeah, okay. Suggesting an improvement is whining.
Thank you for your valuable input on the topic.
Nice Edit job, too bad I already quoted you ( see post above )
The original is more accurate, but more harsh than I wanted to be, hence the edit.
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@LankyRyan said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
@bhall09 said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
I absolutely agree with this, but I also think they need to take away some of the extra secondaries. Some guys haven’t played there in years or at all.
If I remember correctly, they usually give third baseman a 1B secondary and vice versa. Same for middle infielders. I know they said in one stream that every CF automatically gets both corners and every corner OFer gets the other corner.
I think the arbitrary awarding of secondary positions like that does need to go. Every MLB LF can't play RF, or vice versa. I think it should simply be based on what positions they actually do play (or did play the prior season in the case of at launch).
Ryan, here's where I have to disagree. Just about every highschool LF can play RF, a professional athlete dedicating his life to the game can most certainly do the same. Honestly it would take 1 or 2 sessions of shagging flies during BP to get a feel for it.
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@Hubijerk said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
@LankyRyan said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
@bhall09 said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
I absolutely agree with this, but I also think they need to take away some of the extra secondaries. Some guys haven’t played there in years or at all.
If I remember correctly, they usually give third baseman a 1B secondary and vice versa. Same for middle infielders. I know they said in one stream that every CF automatically gets both corners and every corner OFer gets the other corner.
I think the arbitrary awarding of secondary positions like that does need to go. Every MLB LF can't play RF, or vice versa. I think it should simply be based on what positions they actually do play (or did play the prior season in the case of at launch).
Ryan, here's where I have to disagree. Just about every highschool LF can play RF, a professional athlete dedicating his life to the game can most certainly do the same. Honestly it would take 1 or 2 sessions of shagging flies during BP to get a feel for it.
The angles take some getting used to for outfielders, but aside from the speed, speed, arm, and natural fielding aptitude factors, I agree with you for the most part.
If a player plays LF as well as RF, they shouldn't get a secondary position penalty, but in the current setup, they do.
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@LankyRyan said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
@Hubijerk said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
@LankyRyan said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
@bhall09 said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
I absolutely agree with this, but I also think they need to take away some of the extra secondaries. Some guys haven’t played there in years or at all.
If I remember correctly, they usually give third baseman a 1B secondary and vice versa. Same for middle infielders. I know they said in one stream that every CF automatically gets both corners and every corner OFer gets the other corner.
I think the arbitrary awarding of secondary positions like that does need to go. Every MLB LF can't play RF, or vice versa. I think it should simply be based on what positions they actually do play (or did play the prior season in the case of at launch).
Ryan, here's where I have to disagree. Just about every highschool LF can play RF, a professional athlete dedicating his life to the game can most certainly do the same. Honestly it would take 1 or 2 sessions of shagging flies during BP to get a feel for it.
The angles take some getting used to for outfielders, but aside from the speed, speed, arm, and natural fielding aptitude factors, I agree with you for the most part.
If a player plays LF as well as RF, they shouldn't get a secondary position penalty, but in the current setup, they do.
That's true
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@LankyRyan said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
@CalisGW said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
@LankyRyan said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
@CalisGW said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
Ummmm, This is Diamond Dynasty. We play with people who have been dead for over 50 years. Whining about secondary penalties and what positions listed as secondary is important?
Smh. Kids these days
Yeah, okay. Suggesting an improvement is whining.
Thanks for taking the time to actually whine instead of having any sort of input at all, gramps.
Your whole argument is that secondary positions in how it currently is implemented is not realistic. My counter point was that WE ARE PLAYING WITH DEAD PEOPLE. Had to put in caps because it flew over your head the first time.
No, my argument is that the current system is arbitrary and needs to be revised, hence the title of this thread and its subsequent contents.
Don't disguise your angry ramblings as a counter point. You're not making a counter point. You just need to be a [censored] somewhere and I guess I'm the lucky winner.
No, you can’t counter my point so you brush it off as angry ( far from the truth ). I have not checked but I assume RTTS and other modes do not have this issue. This is make believe mode, your whole argument is trying to inject realism in fantasy land where players who played a handful of games get 99 ratings. Yet you chose to single out secondary positions as a problem ?
Lol , kids these days
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@Hubijerk said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
@LankyRyan said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
@bhall09 said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
I absolutely agree with this, but I also think they need to take away some of the extra secondaries. Some guys haven’t played there in years or at all.
If I remember correctly, they usually give third baseman a 1B secondary and vice versa. Same for middle infielders. I know they said in one stream that every CF automatically gets both corners and every corner OFer gets the other corner.
I think the arbitrary awarding of secondary positions like that does need to go. Every MLB LF can't play RF, or vice versa. I think it should simply be based on what positions they actually do play (or did play the prior season in the case of at launch).
Ryan, here's where I have to disagree. Just about every highschool LF can play RF, a professional athlete dedicating his life to the game can most certainly do the same. Honestly it would take 1 or 2 sessions of shagging flies during BP to get a feel for it.
As a baseball coach, yes, a professional big leaguer can interchangeably play all the OF spots and catch a fly ball and field a ground ball while coming up firing as the mechanics don't change. However, playing it well, especially in MLB stadiums with the various quirks of different fields, playing them well is a different story and does take significant effort.
That said, the secondary penalties for a lot of guys is ridiculous. Cal Ripken shouldn't get an automatic -5 or whatever it is if you use one of his shortstop cards to play 3B. As a Pirates fan, while he was an average bench player that many guys probably don't know, but during their playoff runs earlier this decade Sean Rodriguez was a gold glove caliber player at 1B, 2B, 3B and OF while being well above average at SS (he didn't have quite the range of the marquee guys like Tatis or Lindor).
At the end of the day, baseball now is about versatility, and we are seeing teams being built that way, the secondary ratings IMO should reflect that.
Also: to the guy who mentioned Duvall playing 3B in conquest, not just playing it, but playing it as if he is a gold glover, dude is incredible at 3B offline playing against him, and it ticks me off to know end. Also, Tatis playing 2B for the Padres in the RIB conquest is hysterical, especially considering I don't think he's ever played an inning in the bigs anywhere other than shortstop (I apologize in advance if I'm mistaken, I didn't actually fact check this statement, just going off memory)
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@Original_Quad said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
I made a post about this earlier in the year. The system needs to be redesigned so each player has a rating at each specific system. I wish I could find the post I made for it, but for example bellinger would be 100% in the OF and at 1B, but like 10% of his fielding ability everywhere else or something like that.
More importantly it would mean we don’t have as many people playing stupid secondary positions perfectly - Mookie comes to mind as somebody who would get like 60% at 2B, while catcher is even more noteworthy in general. Schwarber, who hasn’t caught in years, would be like 30% behind the plate.
This is precisely the way it should be done to future-proof the game across all modes. Each player gets a % rating at each of the nine positions. Most can be filled in by default based on their existing primary and secondaries and then some can be tweaked ad-hoc as necessary (eg Bellinger as described).
Admittedly it would probably require a little bit of work depending on how the current system is programmed and a lot of testing but it eliminates the problem permanently. If it’s done properly then there are big gains to be made, including removing the ‘band aids’ that are the secondary and out of position penalties.
Similar thinking needs to be applied to the current solutions for spamming secondary pitches and bunt cheese so those ridiculous band aids can be removed as well.
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CF and SS are the "hardest" positions to play- any fielder moving from those to a corner position requiring much less range as a secondary should potentially get a bump to the fielding, not a penalty.
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@CalisGW said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
@LankyRyan said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
@CalisGW said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
@LankyRyan said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
@CalisGW said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
Ummmm, This is Diamond Dynasty. We play with people who have been dead for over 50 years. Whining about secondary penalties and what positions listed as secondary is important?
Smh. Kids these days
Yeah, okay. Suggesting an improvement is whining.
Thanks for taking the time to actually whine instead of having any sort of input at all, gramps.
Your whole argument is that secondary positions in how it currently is implemented is not realistic. My counter point was that WE ARE PLAYING WITH DEAD PEOPLE. Had to put in caps because it flew over your head the first time.
No, my argument is that the current system is arbitrary and needs to be revised, hence the title of this thread and its subsequent contents.
Don't disguise your angry ramblings as a counter point. You're not making a counter point. You just need to be a [censored] somewhere and I guess I'm the lucky winner.
No, you can’t counter my point so you brush it off as angry ( far from the truth ). I have not checked but I assume RTTS and other modes do not have this issue. This is make believe mode, your whole argument is trying to inject realism in fantasy land where players who played a handful of games get 99 ratings. Yet you chose to single out secondary positions as a problem ?
Lol , kids these days
You understand that this issue applies to every game mode, right? DD is just where the use of secondary positions is most prevalent.
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@Red_Ted_is_back said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
@Original_Quad said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
I made a post about this earlier in the year. The system needs to be redesigned so each player has a rating at each specific system. I wish I could find the post I made for it, but for example bellinger would be 100% in the OF and at 1B, but like 10% of his fielding ability everywhere else or something like that.
More importantly it would mean we don’t have as many people playing stupid secondary positions perfectly - Mookie comes to mind as somebody who would get like 60% at 2B, while catcher is even more noteworthy in general. Schwarber, who hasn’t caught in years, would be like 30% behind the plate.
This is precisely the way it should be done to future-proof the game across all modes. Each player gets a % rating at each of the nine positions. Most can be filled in by default based on their existing primary and secondaries and then some can be tweaked ad-hoc as necessary (eg Bellinger as described).
Admittedly it would probably require a little bit of work depending on how the current system is programmed and a lot of testing but it eliminates the problem permanently. If it’s done properly then there are big gains to be made, including removing the ‘band aids’ that are the secondary and out of position penalties.
Similar thinking needs to be applied to the current solutions for spamming secondary pitches and bunt cheese so those ridiculous band aids can be removed as well.
Thinking it through, instead of applying the arbitrary x% decrease in fielding/reaction/arm/whatever at secondary positions, they can simply use their normal stay cast and savant metrics for grading fielding attributes and apply them on an individual basis for the secondary positions.
They already have access to and use this info in order to obtain attributes for primary position, so if really shouldn't be that intensive of a feature to implement, should they ever choose to include it.
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@Hubijerk said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
Also CF should be able to move to R or Left with a decreased penalty. You're essentially cutting their job in half, though you are adding the necessity of navigating foul ground and the edges, so some penalty makes sense.
Exactly. A center fielder moving to a corner outfield spot should get no penalty.
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Why do some players get -5 on some only get -4
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I never saw this as an issue. But some good ideas.
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@LankyRyan said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
@CalisGW said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
Ummmm, This is Diamond Dynasty. We play with people who have been dead for over 50 years. Whining about secondary penalties and what positions listed as secondary is important?
Smh. Kids these days
Yeah, okay. Suggesting an improvement is whining.
Thank you for your valuable input on the topic.
@LankyRyan, there is a typo in your post.
"your valuable input" should have been "your invaluable input."
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@LankyRyan said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
@CalisGW said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
@LankyRyan said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
@CalisGW said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
Ummmm, This is Diamond Dynasty. We play with people who have been dead for over 50 years. Whining about secondary penalties and what positions listed as secondary is important?
Smh. Kids these days
Yeah, okay. Suggesting an improvement is whining.
Thank you for your valuable input on the topic.
Nice Edit job, too bad I already quoted you ( see post above )
The original is more accurate, but more harsh than I wanted to be, hence the edit.
@CalisGW I would have said that he was right, if he hadn't edited it. Like he said, a little harsh, but still very accurate
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@buttmuncher150 said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
Why do some players get -5 on some only get -4
It's a percentage reduction on their fielding attributes, but I don't remember what the exact percentage is that they use.
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@LankyRyan said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
@buttmuncher150 said in It's Time To Revisit Secondary Position Penalties:
Why do some players get -5 on some only get -4
It's a percentage reduction on their fielding attributes, but I don't remember what the exact percentage is that they use.
I believe it’s 5% and they round down.
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