Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again)
-
@dbarmonstar said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@ItsaCanesthing said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
Can anyone think of another 1st ballot sure fire Hall of Famer that has consistently come up as small in the playoffs as Kershaw has done throughout his career?
My buddy is a Braves fan and he was nervous before this game.
I told him not to worry Kershaw will blow it.That 6 inning the error by Hernandez was not good, Freeman a MVP very good hitter. Kershaw pitched good enough for the dodger to win that game. He gave up 3 infield hits, Only solid hit before the 6 was Ozuna's HR. The dodger's offense did not show up. Wilson pitched good. The wind did not help the dodgers with some long fly balls that were knocked down by the wind.I know both team dealt with the wind. I do think Roberts pulled Kershaw at the right time. The story is the Dodgers bull pen has not performed in this series. Buehler pitched a really good game in game 1 no run support. Kershaw was good to the 6th no run support. Give to the Braves to come back in game 4 after getting destroyed. Now on to game 5.
I agree with the Dodgers Pen.
But I think that Dave Roberts is too set in ways and has too much Old School in him.Your season is on the line and you go to....Brusdar Graterol???
Why wasn't Joe Kelly in the game? He has only pitched .1 innings this series?
If this was Tampa Bay, 100% Cash would have used Anderson in that situation.
The idea that a closer is only for the last 3 outs is outdated and ludicrous.
You use your closer in the highest leverage situation. That was in the 6th.
What was he saving Kelly for???
He saved him and now he is down 3-1.
But hey, Joe Kelly is rested. -
@mjfc_363 said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@ItsaCanesthing said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@mjfc_363 said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@ItsaCanesthing said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@mrcityofwin said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
Love me some kersh but this braves lineup is filth. Everyone locked in rn
It's the playoffs. Everyone has a stacked lineup.
If he wants to be considered an all time great, he needs to pitch great in the post season.
It might not be fair, but that is the standard baseball has used for over 100 years.So then Keyshawn doesn’t belong in the hall of fame?
Who said that?
My initial post was can you remember another 1st ballot sure fire Hall of Famer that has come up as small in the Playoffs as Kershaw has?
Kershaw is a Hall of Famer, but he is trash when it matters most. He is a great player, but he can never be in the all time great discussion because of prolonged and repeated playoff disasters.As for "Keyshawn" he is not a Hall of Famer, nobody got him the D-a-m-n ball.
Ok good post. Just wanted to clarify. It’s unfortunate that it happened that way but it did.
If you watched the games over the years in the post season, Kershaw was always left in to long in a game especially by Mattingly. Look at some of the games he had no run support. He has had plenty of games were outstanding. You can throw out the WS games where the Astros Cheated,. He pitched outstanding vs the Astros at dodger stadium in that WS but his second outing in Hou not so good.
-
@dbarmonstar said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@mjfc_363 said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@ItsaCanesthing said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@mjfc_363 said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@ItsaCanesthing said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@mrcityofwin said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
Love me some kersh but this braves lineup is filth. Everyone locked in rn
It's the playoffs. Everyone has a stacked lineup.
If he wants to be considered an all time great, he needs to pitch great in the post season.
It might not be fair, but that is the standard baseball has used for over 100 years.So then Keyshawn doesn’t belong in the hall of fame?
Who said that?
My initial post was can you remember another 1st ballot sure fire Hall of Famer that has come up as small in the Playoffs as Kershaw has?
Kershaw is a Hall of Famer, but he is trash when it matters most. He is a great player, but he can never be in the all time great discussion because of prolonged and repeated playoff disasters.As for "Keyshawn" he is not a Hall of Famer, nobody got him the D-a-m-n ball.
Ok good post. Just wanted to clarify. It’s unfortunate that it happened that way but it did.
If you watched the games over the years in the post season, Kershaw was always left in to long in a game especially by Mattingly. Look at some of the games he had no run support. He has had plenty of games were outstanding. You can throw out the WS games where the Astros Cheated,. He pitched outstanding vs the Astros at dodger stadium in that WS but his second outing in Hou not so good.
Good point on the cheating Stros. I will concede that.
Baseball while being a team sport has the single most important individual in sports, as far as determining outcomes, the starting pitcher.Win-Loss record is misleading and we all know that. But a career 4.31 ERA is not.
A starting pitcher has one job, keep his team in the game. If he would have left after 5 IP tied at 1. He did his job. He gave the Dodgers a chance to win, that is all you can ask for.
At this point of his career he is a #4 starter and a #3 caliber on his best days. -
@ItsaCanesthing said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@dbarmonstar said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@ItsaCanesthing said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
Can anyone think of another 1st ballot sure fire Hall of Famer that has consistently come up as small in the playoffs as Kershaw has done throughout his career?
My buddy is a Braves fan and he was nervous before this game.
I told him not to worry Kershaw will blow it.That 6 inning the error by Hernandez was not good, Freeman a MVP very good hitter. Kershaw pitched good enough for the dodger to win that game. He gave up 3 infield hits, Only solid hit before the 6 was Ozuna's HR. The dodger's offense did not show up. Wilson pitched good. The wind did not help the dodgers with some long fly balls that were knocked down by the wind.I know both team dealt with the wind. I do think Roberts pulled Kershaw at the right time. The story is the Dodgers bull pen has not performed in this series. Buehler pitched a really good game in game 1 no run support. Kershaw was good to the 6th no run support. Give to the Braves to come back in game 4 after getting destroyed. Now on to game 5.
I agree with the Dodgers Pen.
But I think that Dave Roberts is too set in ways and has too much Old School in him.Your season is on the line and you go to....Brusdar Graterol???
Why wasn't Joe Kelly in the game? He has only pitched .1 innings this series?
If this was Tampa Bay, 100% Cash would have used Anderson in that situation.
The idea that a closer is only for the last 3 outs is outdated and ludicrous.
You use your closer in the highest leverage situation. That was in the 6th.
What was he saving Kelly for???
He saved him and now he is down 3-1.
But hey, Joe Kelly is rested.I agree especially after they hit Brusdar hard Bellinger saved a HR. He should have went to Kelly but at the end of the day the offense needs to give the pitcher run support. The Single the doubles in the 6th those hurt Kershaw was pitching good in that game, that infield hit an error opened it up for the Braves. It was not like he game up a solid double or a HR to Acuna the ball was hit very weak. Even after the Freeman hit Roberts could have pulled him but it would not have mattered.
-
@dbarmonstar said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@mjfc_363 said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@ItsaCanesthing said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@mjfc_363 said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@ItsaCanesthing said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@mrcityofwin said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
Love me some kersh but this braves lineup is filth. Everyone locked in rn
It's the playoffs. Everyone has a stacked lineup.
If he wants to be considered an all time great, he needs to pitch great in the post season.
It might not be fair, but that is the standard baseball has used for over 100 years.So then Keyshawn doesn’t belong in the hall of fame?
Who said that?
My initial post was can you remember another 1st ballot sure fire Hall of Famer that has come up as small in the Playoffs as Kershaw has?
Kershaw is a Hall of Famer, but he is trash when it matters most. He is a great player, but he can never be in the all time great discussion because of prolonged and repeated playoff disasters.As for "Keyshawn" he is not a Hall of Famer, nobody got him the D-a-m-n ball.
Ok good post. Just wanted to clarify. It’s unfortunate that it happened that way but it did.
If you watched the games over the years in the post season, Kershaw was always left in to long in a game especially by Mattingly. Look at some of the games he had no run support. He has had plenty of games were outstanding. You can throw out the WS games where the Astros Cheated,. He pitched outstanding vs the Astros at dodger stadium in that WS but his second outing in Hou not so good.
I agree 100%!! He’s a great pitcher. His post season failures will over shadow a great career that few will equal!
-
I agree especially after they hit Brusdar hard Bellinger saved a HR. He should have went to Kelly but at the end of the day the offense needs to give the pitcher run support. The Single the doubles in the 6th those hurt Kershaw was pitching good in that game, that infield hit an error opened it up for the Braves. It was not like he game up a solid double or a HR to Acuna the ball was hit very weak. Even after the Freeman hit Roberts could have pulled him but it would not have mattered.
In the end, this falls on Roberts.
Kershaw is a shadow of his former self and pitched his heart out for 5 innings.
He relied on guile and experience. He gave the Dodgers a chance.
He will keep going until his arm falls off and that is a blessing and a curse.
A manager needs to know when to pull a starter and Roberts still has not learned his lesson.
The Dodgers need a new manager that is not set in his ways and thinks outside the box.
Look at Tampa Bay nobody has a set role. Anderson could come in the 4th inning or the 9th. Cash worries about the next out not the 25th, 26th and 27th outs.
He uses Anderson in the highest leverage situation and figures it out from there. -
@dbarmonstar said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@mjfc_363 said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@ItsaCanesthing said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@mjfc_363 said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@ItsaCanesthing said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@mrcityofwin said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
Love me some kersh but this braves lineup is filth. Everyone locked in rn
It's the playoffs. Everyone has a stacked lineup.
If he wants to be considered an all time great, he needs to pitch great in the post season.
It might not be fair, but that is the standard baseball has used for over 100 years.So then Keyshawn doesn’t belong in the hall of fame?
Who said that?
My initial post was can you remember another 1st ballot sure fire Hall of Famer that has come up as small in the Playoffs as Kershaw has?
Kershaw is a Hall of Famer, but he is trash when it matters most. He is a great player, but he can never be in the all time great discussion because of prolonged and repeated playoff disasters.As for "Keyshawn" he is not a Hall of Famer, nobody got him the D-a-m-n ball.
Ok good post. Just wanted to clarify. It’s unfortunate that it happened that way but it did.
If you watched the games over the years in the post season, Kershaw was always left in to long in a game especially by Mattingly. Look at some of the games he had no run support. He has had plenty of games were outstanding. You can throw out the WS games where the Astros Cheated,. He pitched outstanding vs the Astros at dodger stadium in that WS but his second outing in Hou not so good.
I agree 100%!! He’s a great pitcher. His post season failures will over shadow a great career that few will equal!
-
@lazy_toast said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@DiddyKlunk said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
My Kershaw memories in the playoffs tend to be the bullpen letting runners score such as today. By no means is he lights out, but let's also realize such as in 2019 he got his one out of the bullpen there is no need to have him return after he retires his one batter. I remember Baez coming in and blowing it after or like Brusdar today coughing up runners on base. My next question would be is Mike Trout an all time great because he's 1-10 in postseason and can't even get there or Degrom who has a 7.20 era in one WS start in his only postseason appearance? We can punish Kershaw for all the blow ups but he's also had more chances than someone like Degrom or Trout.
And
drop. BOOMKershaw Dominated a Game vs the Cardinals not run support he lost that game 1-0. Has was 2-0 vs the Braves in the postseason until last night. He has been excellent vs that Nats in the post season. The NLCS game vs Cards left in to long. The NLCS game vs the CUBs those two games alone is why people say he chokes. Toss out the WS game vs that Astros in Hou. His first game in the WS vs the Astros at dodgers stadium he was excellent. Like everything else everyone will remember that bad. At the end of the day if the bullpen can not pick you up and your offense can not score you are not going to win. Kershaw performances is not just him to blame, you got the offense and the manager to blame as well.
-
@ItsaCanesthing said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@DiddyKlunk said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
My next question would be is Mike Trout an all time great because he's 1-10 in postseason and can't even get there or Degrom who has a 7.20 era in one WS start in his only postseason appearance?
Mike Trout is on his way to being an all time great. He is knocking on the door.
But is he in the class of Mays, Mantle and Dimaggio?? Not Yet.
He needs a few more years and one great playoff run.Your argument is disingenuous at best.
You are using a small sample size and cherry picking of stats to argue your point.
Yeah DeGrom has a 7.20 WS ERA, but you failed to mention that his 3 other starts that post season resulted in 3 starts, 20 IP 4 ER and a 1.80 ERA.
Trout has had one post season (where he failed miserably). You cannot compare the post seasons of those two when discussing Kershaw.Kershaw has pitched 177 innings in the post season. And other than 1 Wild Card Game his ERA by round leaves alot to be desired:
NLDS 4.02 ERA
NLCS 4.84 ERA
WS 5.40 ERAYou're right I am picking small sample sizes because my point in the argument is exactly what you're making, Degrom has 25 innings pitched in the postseason compared to 177 for Kershaw. By no means am I saying Kershaw is lights out but he has a much larger sample size to make errors or be failed by offense, bullpen, or managers.
-
@phillydave35 said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
Maybe, but he was keeping them in it. 1 run on 1 hit isn’t going to win much. Their offense needs to wake up.
GREAT POINT. He did his job in my opinion. The bullpen and the offense did not have his back last night!
-
@DoIHearBossMusic said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
They need to release a Postseason Kershaw card, but make it a bronze 67
I mean, you're not wrong.
-
@aam34 said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@phillydave35 said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
Maybe, but he was keeping them in it. 1 run on 1 hit isn’t going to win much. Their offense needs to wake up.
GREAT POINT. He did his job in my opinion. The bullpen and the offense did not have his back last night!
No he did not.
He did his job through 5 innings.
The 6th inning DID happen. He surrendered a hit to Acuna and doubles to Freeman and Ozuna.
You can't blame the error advancing Acuna to second, he would have scored on Freeman's double. And Ozuna would have certainly driven him in on his double.Even if Graterol would have shut the Braves down, it would have been 3-1 after 6 innings.
Roberts is the issue here. He took a banged up, fading veteran and got greedy and tried to run him out there for one more inning.
Shows you how little faith he has in his pen.
Can't even blame NL strategy since there is a universal DH.Kershaw is like the race horse that will run until he collapses. It is up to his proverbial jockey (Roberts) to know when to pull in the reins.
Kershaw didnt fail the Dodgers. Roberts and by extension the Dodgers failed Kershaw.
-
@DiddyKlunk said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
My Kershaw memories in the playoffs tend to be the bullpen letting runners score such as today. By no means is he lights out, but let's also realize such as in 2019 he got his one out of the bullpen there is no need to have him return after he retires his one batter. I remember Baez coming in and blowing it after or like Brusdar today coughing up runners on base. My next question would be is Mike Trout an all time great because he's 1-10 in postseason and can't even get there or Degrom who has a 7.20 era in one WS start in his only postseason appearance? We can punish Kershaw for all the blow ups but he's also had more chances than someone like Degrom or Trout.
You can’t blame Trout and Degrom for not having any chances. The Mets and Angels have had some of the worst front offices in professional sports history for the last 20 years. This isn’t basketball. One great player can’t carry a team to the playoffs in a 162 game season. TBH Trout and Degrom have pretty much kept their teams from being the Tigers, Orioles, or Pirates the last 5 years
-
cc Sabathia was not good in the Post season
Tom Glavine was just as bad in the post season
Roger Clemens is only slightly better than Kershaw in post season and pretty sure he was on Roids.I am sure there are plenty more
-
@dbarmonstar said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
cc Sabathia was not good in the Post season
Tom Glavine was just as bad in the post season
Roger Clemens is only slightly better than Kershaw in post season and pretty sure he was on Roids.I am sure there are plenty more
You are so wrong, it is comical.
Put down the Dodgers pom-poms.
Let's compare Kershaw with pitchers that have similar Postseason Innings pitched.
Let's look at ERA. Win-Loss record is misleading and dependent on run support.Kershaw is # 7 all time in Post season Innings pitched.
But he is last in ERA and its not even close.
His ERA is half a run worse than the next closest pitcher (Pettitte who is #1 in innings pictched)
The real surprise is Whitey Ford with a 2.71 Postseason ERA. What makes it that much better is that ALL of his postseason innings pitched were in the World Series.
Here are the numbers:Player IP ERA1 Andy Pettitte 276.2 3.81
2 Tom Glavine 218.1 3.30
3 John Smoltz 209 2.67
4 Roger Clemens 199 3.75
5 Greg Maddux 198 3.27
6 Justin Verlander 187.2 3.40
7 Clayton Kershaw 177.1 4.31
8 Jon Lester 154 2.51
9 Whitey Ford 146 2.71
10 John Lackey 144 2.89Still think Kershaw isn't that bad?
Compared to his postseason contemporaries he is severely lacking. -
@ItsaCanesthing said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@dbarmonstar said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
cc Sabathia was not good in the Post season
Tom Glavine was just as bad in the post season
Roger Clemens is only slightly better than Kershaw in post season and pretty sure he was on Roids.I am sure there are plenty more
You are so wrong, it is comical.
Put down the Dodgers pom-poms.
Let's compare Kershaw with pitchers that have similar Postseason Innings pitched.
Let's look at ERA. Win-Loss record is misleading and dependent on run support.Kershaw is # 7 all time in Post season Innings pitched.
But he is last in ERA and its not even close.
His ERA is half a run worse than the next closest pitcher (Pettitte who is #1 in innings pictched)
The real surprise is Whitey Ford with a 2.71 Postseason ERA. What makes it that much better is that ALL of his postseason innings pitched were in the World Series.
Here are the numbers:Player IP ERA
1 Andy Pettitte 276.2 3.81
2 Tom Glavine 218.1 3.30
3 John Smoltz 209 2.67
4 Roger Clemens 199 3.75
5 Greg Maddux 198 3.27
6 Justin Verlander 187.2 3.40
7 Clayton Kershaw 177.1 4.31
8 Jon Lester 154 2.51
9 Whitey Ford 146 2.71
10 John Lackey 144 2.89Still think Kershaw isn't that bad?
Compared to his postseason contemporaries he is severely lacking.No I do not, He was miss manged and many times pitching on short rest. I am not saying he was good but he is not as bad as the number suggest. I watch pretty much all of his post season games. The two games that serious inflate those numbers are vs the Cardinals and Cubs. The WS game in Hou you can throw that game out. Last years game vs the Nats was probably the worst.
-
@dbarmonstar said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@ItsaCanesthing said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
@dbarmonstar said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
cc Sabathia was not good in the Post season
Tom Glavine was just as bad in the post season
Roger Clemens is only slightly better than Kershaw in post season and pretty sure he was on Roids.I am sure there are plenty more
You are so wrong, it is comical.
Put down the Dodgers pom-poms.
Let's compare Kershaw with pitchers that have similar Postseason Innings pitched.
Let's look at ERA. Win-Loss record is misleading and dependent on run support.Kershaw is # 7 all time in Post season Innings pitched.
But he is last in ERA and its not even close.
His ERA is half a run worse than the next closest pitcher (Pettitte who is #1 in innings pictched)
The real surprise is Whitey Ford with a 2.71 Postseason ERA. What makes it that much better is that ALL of his postseason innings pitched were in the World Series.
Here are the numbers:Player IP ERA1 Andy Pettitte 276.2 3.81
2 Tom Glavine 218.1 3.30
3 John Smoltz 209 2.67
4 Roger Clemens 199 3.75
5 Greg Maddux 198 3.27
6 Justin Verlander 187.2 3.40
7 Clayton Kershaw 177.1 4.31
8 Jon Lester 154 2.51
9 Whitey Ford 146 2.71
10 John Lackey 144 2.89Still think Kershaw isn't that bad?
Compared to his postseason contemporaries he is severely lacking.No I do not, He was miss manged and many times pitching on short rest. I am not saying he was good but he is not as bad as the number suggest. I watch pretty much all of his post season games. The two games that serious inflate those numbers are vs the Cardinals and Cubs. The WS game in Hou you can throw that game out. Last years game vs the Nats was probably the worst.
As bad as people think he chokes in the playoffs, you would think those numbers would be worst.
-
No I do not, He was miss manged and many times pitching on short rest. I am not saying he was good but he is not as bad as the number suggest. I watch pretty much all of his post season games. The two games that serious inflate those numbers are vs the Cardinals and Cubs. The WS game in Hou you can throw that game out. Last years game vs the Nats was probably the worst.
You can't pick and choose which games count.
This isnt high school where the teacher drops your lowest grade.I will give you the cheating Stros Game... 4.2 IP 6 ER
He still has a career postseason ERA of 4.10 STILL worst amongst top 10 IP pitchers.
With the exception of the astros game every thing else is legit. -
@ItsaCanesthing said in Kershaw crumbles in the big playoff game (again):
You can't pick and chose which games count.
This isnt high school where the teacher drops your lowest grade.I will give you the cheating Stros Game... 4.2 IP 6 ER
He still has a career postseason ERA of 4.10 STILL worst amongst top 10 IP pitchers.
With the exception of the astros game every thing else is legit.All the games count, Everyone knows the Managers of the Dodgers have not made good decisions with there pitchers in the Post season. This goes all the way back to Torre. Mantingly was the worst. I am not saying Kershaw is good in the playoffs. I am saying the blame of his bad performances is partly on the manager.
-
I disagree with the argument about taking him out after 5. I thought Roberts took him out at the right time. With the no days off deal it’s not as easy to just roll your best relievers out when they might have to pitch the next three days. The reality is that the dodgers were in a hole and needed kershaw to pitch 6 or 7 innings to get them to even. They were tied in the game and couldn’t hit. If Roberts sends out his top 4 arms in kelly, Treinen, Graterol, and Jansen and they get walked off because they cant score runs, they have no chance to win the series. Now tonight, it’s a different story. All hands on deck, no messing around.
I know I’ve got dodger goggles on here. But if they can find a way to score some runs, they can still win this series. But, if they’re going to score 2 runs then the Braves deserve to win it.
