Joe Carter most underrated player
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@abbyspapa said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@notoriousHEB said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Neil Walker has a higher career WAR than Carter. Neil. Walker. In fewer years.
The stats don't lie.
WAR is a terrible stat, it's an estimation with a bunch of assumptions and makes for horrible baseball conversation. It's not meant to be used the way most use it either.
The rest of Joe Carters stats, his actual real production -- very vanilla. Solid player but not great.
One of the all time most clutch moments though.
But overall it's laughable he's a 93 overall.
If WAR is terrible. Why do all the best players have the best WAR?......
“WAR is a terrible stat”
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
Why do some of the best players ever have the most HRs? Why do some of the best pitchers ever have the most Ks?
We should base our judgement of batters solely off HRs and pitchers solely off Ks.
Idk what you are getting at really. Im just not sure how its terrible when front offices use it and the best players in the game have the highest WAR year in and year out.
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@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
WAR is terribly defensive heavy I find. You’ll find some players with high WAR that can’t hit a lick
Name 10
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@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
WAR is terribly defensive heavy I find. You’ll find some players with high WAR that can’t hit a lick
Because defense is actually extremely important. A run saved is as good as a run scored. That’s why Ryan Zimmerman has twice as much WAR as Carter despite the fact that his hitting doesn’t seem nearly as impressive.
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@abbyspapa said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@notoriousHEB said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Neil Walker has a higher career WAR than Carter. Neil. Walker. In fewer years.
The stats don't lie.
WAR is a terrible stat, it's an estimation with a bunch of assumptions and makes for horrible baseball conversation. It's not meant to be used the way most use it either.
The rest of Joe Carters stats, his actual real production -- very vanilla. Solid player but not great.
One of the all time most clutch moments though.
But overall it's laughable he's a 93 overall.
If WAR is terrible. Why do all the best players have the best WAR?......
“WAR is a terrible stat”
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
Why do some of the best players ever have the most HRs? Why do some of the best pitchers ever have the most Ks?
We should base our judgement of batters solely off HRs and pitchers solely off Ks.
Idk what you are getting at really. Im just not sure how its terrible when front offices use it and the best players in the game have the highest WAR year in and year out.
Confirmation bias? Because MLB front offices solely base player value off WAR right? That must explain why Lewis Brinson keeps getting a job. Lol
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@abbyspapa said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Original_Quad said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Okay, but Carter wasn’t even that good by traditional statistics. He was a stat packer. He hit .259 in his career and only led the league once in a major stat (RBI’s). He was a below average defender, and yeah he could hit home runs, but again, he never led the league in that stat. The only reason he accumulated the stats he did was because he avoided injuries and was consistently put in a lineup spot that allowed him to drive in so many runs.
Guess those managers who put him in those lineup spots didn't know much about baseball...because...uh..WAR and stuff. Lol
I’m not saying he wasn’t a good hitter. But he had a low average, very low OBP, and the reason he drove in those runs is because the people in front of him could get on base, therefore, he had many more opportunities to drive them in.
The reason his managers hit him in middle of the order spots is because they based their lineups off the same ideas you’re suggesting.
The whole point is that you don’t even have to look at WAR to figure out Joe Carter wasn’t a great player.
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@abbyspapa said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@abbyspapa said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@notoriousHEB said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Neil Walker has a higher career WAR than Carter. Neil. Walker. In fewer years.
The stats don't lie.
WAR is a terrible stat, it's an estimation with a bunch of assumptions and makes for horrible baseball conversation. It's not meant to be used the way most use it either.
The rest of Joe Carters stats, his actual real production -- very vanilla. Solid player but not great.
One of the all time most clutch moments though.
But overall it's laughable he's a 93 overall.
If WAR is terrible. Why do all the best players have the best WAR?......
“WAR is a terrible stat”
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
Why do some of the best players ever have the most HRs? Why do some of the best pitchers ever have the most Ks?
We should base our judgement of batters solely off HRs and pitchers solely off Ks.
Idk what you are getting at really. Im just not sure how its terrible when front offices use it and the best players in the game have the highest WAR year in and year out.
Confirmation bias? Because MLB front offices solely base player value off WAR right? That must explain why Lewis Brinson keeps getting a job. Lol
I never said that. But they do in fact factor WAR into things. Once again how is it “terrible” when the best players in the game have the highest WAR every year.
Lewis Brinson has a job because he is 25 and probably still on a minor League deal on the worst team in baseball. Odds are he is not in the league at 28. Would you like to try again and actually explain why WAR is a terrible state. Im just confused how Mike trout has the best WAR annually and hes clearly the best player alive. Seems to be working.
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@Original_Quad said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@abbyspapa said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Original_Quad said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Okay, but Carter wasn’t even that good by traditional statistics. He was a stat packer. He hit .259 in his career and only led the league once in a major stat (RBI’s). He was a below average defender, and yeah he could hit home runs, but again, he never led the league in that stat. The only reason he accumulated the stats he did was because he avoided injuries and was consistently put in a lineup spot that allowed him to drive in so many runs.
Guess those managers who put him in those lineup spots didn't know much about baseball...because...uh..WAR and stuff. Lol
I’m not saying he wasn’t a good hitter. But he had a low average, very low OBP, and the reason he drove in those runs is because the people in front of him could get on base, therefore, he had many more opportunities to drive them in.
The reason his managers hit him in middle of the order spots is because they based their lineups off the same ideas you’re suggesting.
So these managers put someone with a very low average and OBP in the spot where they wanted someone who would drive in the runners that were on base?
Man, these guys had no idea how baseball works!
Lucky for them it worked out so well!
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@abbyspapa said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
So these managers put someone with a very low average and OBP in the spot where they wanted someone who would drive in the runners that were on base?
Man, these guys had no idea how baseball works!
They wrote a book about it and everything!
https://www.amazon.com/Moneyball-Art-Winning-Unfair-Game/dp/0393324818
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@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@abbyspapa said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
So these managers put someone with a very low average and OBP in the spot where they wanted someone who would drive in the runners that were on base?
Man, these guys had no idea how baseball works!
They wrote a book about it and everything!
https://www.amazon.com/Moneyball-Art-Winning-Unfair-Game/dp/0393324818
Thank god for that! Really helped the A's win all those World Series since it was published in 2004.
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@abbyspapa said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Original_Quad said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@abbyspapa said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Original_Quad said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Okay, but Carter wasn’t even that good by traditional statistics. He was a stat packer. He hit .259 in his career and only led the league once in a major stat (RBI’s). He was a below average defender, and yeah he could hit home runs, but again, he never led the league in that stat. The only reason he accumulated the stats he did was because he avoided injuries and was consistently put in a lineup spot that allowed him to drive in so many runs.
Guess those managers who put him in those lineup spots didn't know much about baseball...because...uh..WAR and stuff. Lol
I’m not saying he wasn’t a good hitter. But he had a low average, very low OBP, and the reason he drove in those runs is because the people in front of him could get on base, therefore, he had many more opportunities to drive them in.
The reason his managers hit him in middle of the order spots is because they based their lineups off the same ideas you’re suggesting.
So these managers put someone with a very low average and OBP in the spot where they wanted someone who would drive in the runners that were on base?
Man, these guys had no idea how baseball works!
Lucky for them it worked out so well!
You can make suboptimal decisions and still succeed sometimes and still succeed, especially when everybody else is making those same suboptimal decisions. But you have a better chance at winning when you optimize those decisions, hence why every team bases their decisions today on WAR and advanced Sabermetrics.
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Joe Carter didn't hit for average, had solid but unspectacular power numbers, didn't draw walks, wasn't a particularly feared baserunner, didn't do anything special with his glove or his arm, and was considerably similar to Ruben Sierra, who I have never seen defended as an underrated great on this board.
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
WAR is terribly defensive heavy I find. You’ll find some players with high WAR that can’t hit a lick
Name 10
Lol I’ll just go with Jays’ outfielders. Carter ranks 13th among all jays outfielders in team history behind guys like:
Jose Cruz Jr.
Otto Velez
Shannon Stewart
Kevin PillarIdk about you but any manager would take Carter ahead of any of these guys
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@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
WAR is terribly defensive heavy I find. You’ll find some players with high WAR that can’t hit a lick
Name 10
Lo
Lol I’ll just go with Jays’ outfielders. Carter ranks 13th among all jays outfielders in team history behind guys like:Jose Cruz Jr.
Otto Velez
Shannon Stewart
Kevin PillarIdk about you but any manager would take Carter ahead of any of these guys
Jose cruz and Carter are both at 19.6 on baseball reference. Cruz had a higher career OPS...... im not even going to bother looking at the rest because you were already off base on the first one.
Carter had a career 306 OBP. He just wasnt that good man.....He has to be one of the worst 5 time all stars ever. He never OPSed above 850.
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
WAR is terribly defensive heavy I find. You’ll find some players with high WAR that can’t hit a lick
Name 10
Lo
Lol I’ll just go with Jays’ outfielders. Carter ranks 13th among all jays outfielders in team history behind guys like:Jose Cruz Jr.
Otto Velez
Shannon Stewart
Kevin PillarIdk about you but any manager would take Carter ahead of any of these guys
Jose cruz and Carter are both at 19.6 on baseball reference. Cruz had a higher career OPS...... im not even going to bother looking at the rest because you were already off base on the first one.
Carter had a career 306 OBP. He just wasnt that good man.....He has to be one of the worst 5 time all stars ever. He never OPSed above 850.
You’re looking at career, I’m talking during the Jays tenure. All these guys are ahead of Carter. Its just to demonstrate how WAR values defense first. No one would take these guys ahead of Carter
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@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Joe Carter didn't hit for average, had solid but unspectacular power numbers, didn't draw walks, wasn't a particularly feared baserunner, didn't do anything special with his glove or his arm, and was considerably similar to Ruben Sierra, who I have never seen defended as an underrated great on this board.
Robin Yount should still be tried for aggravated theft for stealing Reuben's 89 MVP award.
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@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
WAR is terribly defensive heavy I find. You’ll find some players with high WAR that can’t hit a lick
Name 10
Lo
Lol I’ll just go with Jays’ outfielders. Carter ranks 13th among all jays outfielders in team history behind guys like:Jose Cruz Jr.
Otto Velez
Shannon Stewart
Kevin PillarIdk about you but any manager would take Carter ahead of any of these guys
Jose cruz and Carter are both at 19.6 on baseball reference. Cruz had a higher career OPS...... im not even going to bother looking at the rest because you were already off base on the first one.
Carter had a career 306 OBP. He just wasnt that good man.....He has to be one of the worst 5 time all stars ever. He never OPSed above 850.
You’re looking at career, I’m talking during the Jays tenure. All these guys are ahead of Carter. Its just to demonstrate how WAR values defense first
Bruh. What. Why would I just look at their Jays career? Carter and cruz were pretty similar players. Their War reflects that. It doesnt value defense first lmao. It values all things. Hitting. Base running. Fielding. Yelich is a poor fielder. Still posted 7-8 war the past two years. seriously go look at the top WAR leaders the past three years and find me a guy who is only up there because of defense. You wont.
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@notoriousHEB said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Neil Walker has a higher career WAR than Carter. Neil. Walker. In fewer years.
The stats don't lie.
WAR is a terrible stat, it's an estimation with a bunch of assumptions and makes for horrible baseball conversation. It's not meant to be used the way most use it either.
The rest of Joe Carters stats, his actual real production -- very vanilla. Solid player but not great.
One of the all time most clutch moments though.
But overall it's laughable he's a 93 overall.
If WAR is terrible. Why do all the best players have the best WAR?......
“WAR is a terrible stat”
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
It's terrible because there is no standard, every source calculates their WAR differently. WAR attempts to provide a single holistic number to value players based upon more or less the premise that runs created = wins and values players as wins above replacement level. There are an array of assumptions abd positional adjustments assumed by whoever is calculating, these calculations utilize estimates and source-determined adjustments as they see fit.
It is not a factual statistic. It is a mathematical estimation the calculator has leeway to determine as they see fit.
Best part is you cant even total up a team's WAR and compare it to their actual wins, no back-testing!
But back on track it's terrible for baseball conversation because people quote WAR as if that's the single number representing a player and shuts down discussion, rather than adding to it... and baseball is far far more complex than a single figure can capture, especially when that single figure has positional assumptions for adjustments and relies on flawed defensive metrics.
Also you claim the best players have the best WAR... Really? Because according to the fangraphs calculation Lance Lynn was #11 last year and more valuable than both Justin Verlander and Max Scherzer... Hahaha right... And German Marquez and his 4.76 ERA in 176 IP was just as valuable as Luis Castillo and his 3.40 ERA in 190 IP... RIGHT... Oh and Mark Cahna was just as valuable as Freddie Freeman!
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Anyone with 400 career homeruns is pretty good. Carter is a clutch homerun hitter a guy you want batting in the 9th with the game on the line. Hit a homerun to win the world series that's about as clutch as it gets. Hes not trout but to say hes not that good with whatever advanced stat you can find is just dumb.
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“Touch em all Joe” could be a catchy slogan for Biden
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@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Neil Walker has a higher career WAR than Carter. Neil. Walker. In fewer years.
The stats don't lie.
Well, I would argue that it begs the opposite, since it’s a cumulative stat. If it were like QB rating, where its like an avg, I would agree. But Neil Walker being above in a cumulative stat makes no sense. That or his position (2B) is weighed really heavily and they should sort a batting only WAR.
