The Cleveland Baseball Team....
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@abbyspapa said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
Bad eggs? You keep glossing over the treatment Americans did to other ethnicities. Trying to systematically wipe out Native Americans through virus ( small pix I believe ) and encampment. Also Americans were big on slavery. AMERICANS considered people as property. That is more than just a few bad eggs or as you put it earlier, a few flaws.
Either one of those two happening today would have the world outraged and would be considered crimes against humanity.
If you can’t see that? Then anything you say can’t be taken seriously
None of those crimes are the sole providence of Americans.
Were the Greeks under Alexander the "bad guys"?
Were the Persians under Cyrus or Darius the "bad guys"?
Were the Romans under Trajan the "bad guys"?
Were the Ottoman Turks under Suleiman or the Mongol Khans, or the Qing, or the British, or the Spaniards, or the Russians, or all the other expansionist empires all the "bad guys"?
If so, thank the heavens for "bad guys"!
All the fruits most of us enjoy today were seeded by expansionist empires, fertilized by oceans of blood and harvested through numerous acts of incredible violence and brutality.
Do you think the Apache and Comanche suddenly became arguably the best light infantry horse warriors in all of history just because white men showed up?
Never said was sole province of Americans. You are trying to twist it that way to protect Americans.
Americans did very bad things , thus were bad guys in the past. ( just like almost every other country ).
My point , which still hasn’t been addressed by any arguing different , is the actions/crimes committed by Americans was more than “ just a few flaws “. To say the treatment of Native Americans and Blacks by Americans in the past ( can be argued still exist today ) are just a mistake, nothing to see here, is deplorable. Can be no healing until harsh truths are acknowledged.
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@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@abbyspapa said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
Bad eggs? You keep glossing over the treatment Americans did to other ethnicities. Trying to systematically wipe out Native Americans through virus ( small pix I believe ) and encampment. Also Americans were big on slavery. AMERICANS considered people as property. That is more than just a few bad eggs or as you put it earlier, a few flaws.
Either one of those two happening today would have the world outraged and would be considered crimes against humanity.
If you can’t see that? Then anything you say can’t be taken seriously
None of those crimes are the sole providence of Americans.
Were the Greeks under Alexander the "bad guys"?
Were the Persians under Cyrus or Darius the "bad guys"?
Were the Romans under Trajan the "bad guys"?
Were the Ottoman Turks under Suleiman or the Mongol Khans, or the Qing, or the British, or the Spaniards, or the Russians, or all the other expansionist empires all the "bad guys"?
If so, thank the heavens for "bad guys"!
All the fruits most of us enjoy today were seeded by expansionist empires, fertilized by oceans of blood and harvested through numerous acts of incredible violence and brutality.
Do you think the Apache and Comanche suddenly became arguably the best light infantry horse warriors in all of history just because white men showed up?
Never said was sole province of Americans. You are trying to twist it that way to protect Americans.
Americans did very bad things , thus were bad guys in the past. ( just like almost every other country ).
My point , which still hasn’t been addressed by any arguing different , is the actions/crimes committed by Americans was more than “ just a few flaws “. To say the treatment of Native Americans and Blacks by Americans in the past ( can be argued still exist today ) are just a mistake, nothing to see here is deplorable. Can be no healing until harsh truths are acknowledged.
The harsh truth is that everyone has blood on their hands if we apply present day morals retroactively. Which means everyone has to acknowledge that fact and then we have everyone apologizing to each other for something.
Recognizing the Nazis were evil, while driving your VW Beetle, sipping on a Fanta or chugging a Jagermeister in your Hugo Boss jeans, is little more than an empty gesture.
We can acknowledge that horrible things happened in the past, while also moving forward. Otherwise we get conflicts that never end because we are blaming each other forever.
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Yet some on these forums DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE what Americans did in the past as bad. Do not think this applies to you ABBA.
What Americans did in the past ( wiping out Native Americans and Slavery ) were deplorable and heinous. Until there is that acknowledgment, there can be no moving on.
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Now is American history spotless and flawless? No, of course not. Nobody is perfect. But screwing over Native Americans was mostly Andrew Jackson's thing.
I would say that there was a lot more racism and problems than just the Andrew Jackson thing. The U.S. had been screwing them over before Jackson and after Jackson. Native Americans had a lot of stuff happening to them up until the 1900's when things started to get better. They were treated poorly and ostracized for decades.
No country is spotless though.
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@Kuhlkilla said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
Now is American history spotless and flawless? No, of course not. Nobody is perfect. But screwing over Native Americans was mostly Andrew Jackson's thing.
I would say that there was a lot more racism and problems than just the Andrew Jackson thing. The U.S. had been screwing them over before Jackson and after Jackson. Native Americans had a lot of stuff happening to them up until the 1900's when things started to get better. They were treated poorly and ostracized for decades.
No country is spotless though.
I would arguing that they are still being marginalized. When ever the government wants their land, they take it. (Oil pipe line ). Just because they are getting treated better doesn’t mean they are treated equally. Minorities ( some more than others ) are not treated equally in America. So yeah, goes way beyond Andrew Jackson.
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True! Good point! ^^^ @CalisGW
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To put this baby to rest and why America is not the “greatest” country as Ms Historian and others profess; look at how we classify people in America.
If you black? African American
Asian decent? Asian American
Latin? Latin American
And so on
But if you are white , simply American.Anything but white there is a “but” clause.
Almost every other country is different. Only America singles out ethnicity in that way. Subconsciously keeps minorities down and refers to them as second class citizens.When in truth. We are Americans, period.
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As someone who does not live in the US, the thing that stands out most to me about this discussion is how often the word, “opinion” is used.
While I think I see where the historian poster was coming from, it still all smacks, frankly, of entitlement and priviledge.
I don’t want to stir up a hornets nest, and I agree, having these kinds of discussions has some merit, but I just don’t see how racism is a matter of opinion.
Racism is racism. Sexism is sexism. True, in the past, what was considered racist or sexist was different, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t racist then and is suddenly racist now.
Chief Wahoo and the Indians name were racist. It is good that they are going away. That’s not my opinion. It’s a (now) commonly accepted reality.
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@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
So many white people crying about the name change. Just call them the Cleveland Crackers ( or anything offensive referring to white people ) and let’s move on.
Cleveland Whities
Cleveland Gringos
Cleveland White Boys
Cleveland Proud Boys
Cleveland Ku K.... you get the pointAs a white person am I supposed to be offended by all of these? The first 3 aren't remotely offensive to me. I claim ignorance on the Proud Boys and I want zero association with the 5th, hopefully that was assumed.
Two things in this thread that appears to flew over your head .
First, it’s a slippery slope when you start using names to describe a complete ethnicity. Where does it stop?
Second, native Americans are not Indians ( which has been stated in this thread by others ). So to use a symbol of a Native American and then call your team Indians is hugely ignorant. Anyone who believes it’s ok to keep the name is wholly uneducated and tbh, an embarrassment to their ethnicity.
No these 2 things haven't "flew" over my head. Maybe you misread something. Me not being offended by those 3 words above is just my opinion and I recognize that opinion means nothing. I am well aware that there are plenty of others that may be offended by them. I agree that it is a slippery slope but thanks for assuming that I didn't.
I am well aware that Native Americans and people from India (Indians) are not the same thing. It doesn't bother me one bit that Cleveland is changing its nickname. If that organization and actual Native Americans want that change then by all means go for it!! As I have pointed out several times in this thread I don't agree with people telling others what they should think, how they should think, or what they should or shouldn't be offended by. Perfect example is your response above. Assumptions aren't good for anyone.
It is cumulative of your posts in this thread is what I was attacking. There is no grey area , the point is that just because you are not offended doesn’t make it ok. There is a right side of history and a wrong side.
Name needs to be changed , period. No excuse, no buts, no what if’s. It was wrong then and it’s wrong now. Only thing that has changed is minorities have a lot more power than they had before ( which wasn’t much at all )
I don't even think you know what you are trying to argue now. Interesting you said attacking on your own accord because after reading some of your other threads that is all you seem to do. What does me not being offended by the 3 white nicknames mentioned earlier in this thread have to do with the Indians nickname???
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@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCstatehokie
You are not really behind your own argument of against telling others what they should or shouldn’t be offended. If you were staunch in your beliefs or a person of principle, you would not be posting on these forums. By agreeing to post on these forums and accepting the TOS, you freely admit to censorship and a degree of being told how you should think/behave/act on these forums.
You are way out there buddy. You seem like a bitter and angry person. I am also not sure how well you read and comprehend things. Based on your posts you seem to read what you think the post should say and not what it actually does. We are in completely different galaxies it seems and quite honestly I have no desire to go back and forth with someone like you on the internet. I don't need the negativity and I don't like arguing just for the sake of arguing. Hopefully you can find someone else who does. Good luck playing the Show!
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@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
So many white people crying about the name change. Just call them the Cleveland Crackers ( or anything offensive referring to white people ) and let’s move on.
Cleveland Whities
Cleveland Gringos
Cleveland White Boys
Cleveland Proud Boys
Cleveland Ku K.... you get the pointAs a white person am I supposed to be offended by all of these? The first 3 aren't remotely offensive to me. I claim ignorance on the Proud Boys and I want zero association with the 5th, hopefully that was assumed.
Two things in this thread that appears to flew over your head .
First, it’s a slippery slope when you start using names to describe a complete ethnicity. Where does it stop?
Second, native Americans are not Indians ( which has been stated in this thread by others ). So to use a symbol of a Native American and then call your team Indians is hugely ignorant. Anyone who believes it’s ok to keep the name is wholly uneducated and tbh, an embarrassment to their ethnicity.
No these 2 things haven't "flew" over my head. Maybe you misread something. Me not being offended by those 3 words above is just my opinion and I recognize that opinion means nothing. I am well aware that there are plenty of others that may be offended by them. I agree that it is a slippery slope but thanks for assuming that I didn't.
I am well aware that Native Americans and people from India (Indians) are not the same thing. It doesn't bother me one bit that Cleveland is changing its nickname. If that organization and actual Native Americans want that change then by all means go for it!! As I have pointed out several times in this thread I don't agree with people telling others what they should think, how they should think, or what they should or shouldn't be offended by. Perfect example is your response above. Assumptions aren't good for anyone.
It is cumulative of your posts in this thread is what I was attacking. There is no grey area , the point is that just because you are not offended doesn’t make it ok. There is a right side of history and a wrong side.
Name needs to be changed , period. No excuse, no buts, no what if’s. It was wrong then and it’s wrong now. Only thing that has changed is minorities have a lot more power than they had before ( which wasn’t much at all )
As a historian I'd like to point out that history is history. It is skewed at times, but in the end, it is still history. There is no wrong or right side of facts imo.
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCstatehokie
You are not really behind your own argument of against telling others what they should or shouldn’t be offended. If you were staunch in your beliefs or a person of principle, you would not be posting on these forums. By agreeing to post on these forums and accepting the TOS, you freely admit to censorship and a degree of being told how you should think/behave/act on these forums.
You are not a moderator, so I believe your citation of the TOS is irrelevant, and your "holier than thou" lecturing of someone who has opinions that are different from your own isn't cool at all.
I'm quickly learning that's his mojo. Kudos to you if you want to continue engaging with him.
On another note I have enjoyed the discourse back and forth with you as well as reading your posts in this thread.
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@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCstatehokie
You are not really behind your own argument of against telling others what they should or shouldn’t be offended. If you were staunch in your beliefs or a person of principle, you would not be posting on these forums. By agreeing to post on these forums and accepting the TOS, you freely admit to censorship and a degree of being told how you should think/behave/act on these forums.
You are way out there buddy. You seem like a bitter and angry person. I am also not sure how well you read and comprehend things. Based on your posts you seem to read what you think the post should say and not what it actually does. We are in completely different galaxies it seems and quite honestly I have no desire to go back and forth with someone like you on the internet. I don't need the negativity and I don't like arguing just for the sake of arguing. Hopefully you can find someone else who does. Good luck playing the Show!
The likes on my posts say otherwise. Just because you can’t comprehend the severity of racism in the name Indians or the racism in white people nicknames does not mean it does not exist. It’s cool though, keep being blind. Luckily more and more people everyday are seeing the truth about the past and standing up for the future.
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@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
So many white people crying about the name change. Just call them the Cleveland Crackers ( or anything offensive referring to white people ) and let’s move on.
Cleveland Whities
Cleveland Gringos
Cleveland White Boys
Cleveland Proud Boys
Cleveland Ku K.... you get the pointAs a white person am I supposed to be offended by all of these? The first 3 aren't remotely offensive to me. I claim ignorance on the Proud Boys and I want zero association with the 5th, hopefully that was assumed.
Two things in this thread that appears to flew over your head .
First, it’s a slippery slope when you start using names to describe a complete ethnicity. Where does it stop?
Second, native Americans are not Indians ( which has been stated in this thread by others ). So to use a symbol of a Native American and then call your team Indians is hugely ignorant. Anyone who believes it’s ok to keep the name is wholly uneducated and tbh, an embarrassment to their ethnicity.
No these 2 things haven't "flew" over my head. Maybe you misread something. Me not being offended by those 3 words above is just my opinion and I recognize that opinion means nothing. I am well aware that there are plenty of others that may be offended by them. I agree that it is a slippery slope but thanks for assuming that I didn't.
I am well aware that Native Americans and people from India (Indians) are not the same thing. It doesn't bother me one bit that Cleveland is changing its nickname. If that organization and actual Native Americans want that change then by all means go for it!! As I have pointed out several times in this thread I don't agree with people telling others what they should think, how they should think, or what they should or shouldn't be offended by. Perfect example is your response above. Assumptions aren't good for anyone.
It is cumulative of your posts in this thread is what I was attacking. There is no grey area , the point is that just because you are not offended doesn’t make it ok. There is a right side of history and a wrong side.
Name needs to be changed , period. No excuse, no buts, no what if’s. It was wrong then and it’s wrong now. Only thing that has changed is minorities have a lot more power than they had before ( which wasn’t much at all )
As a historian I'd like to point out that history is history. It is skewed at times, but in the end, it is still history. There is no wrong or right side of facts imo.
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCstatehokie
You are not really behind your own argument of against telling others what they should or shouldn’t be offended. If you were staunch in your beliefs or a person of principle, you would not be posting on these forums. By agreeing to post on these forums and accepting the TOS, you freely admit to censorship and a degree of being told how you should think/behave/act on these forums.
You are not a moderator, so I believe your citation of the TOS is irrelevant, and your "holier than thou" lecturing of someone who has opinions that are different from your own isn't cool at all.
I'm quickly learning that's his mojo. Kudos to you if you want to continue engaging with him.
On another note I have enjoyed the discourse back and forth with you as well as reading your posts in this thread.
Thank you. It's been made abundantly clear that some people resort to petty name-calling when a decent argument, or just facts, are presented. I have enjoyed reading your posts as well, and I am pleased with the thoughtful discussion we've had.
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@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
So many white people crying about the name change. Just call them the Cleveland Crackers ( or anything offensive referring to white people ) and let’s move on.
Cleveland Whities
Cleveland Gringos
Cleveland White Boys
Cleveland Proud Boys
Cleveland Ku K.... you get the pointAs a white person am I supposed to be offended by all of these? The first 3 aren't remotely offensive to me. I claim ignorance on the Proud Boys and I want zero association with the 5th, hopefully that was assumed.
Two things in this thread that appears to flew over your head .
First, it’s a slippery slope when you start using names to describe a complete ethnicity. Where does it stop?
Second, native Americans are not Indians ( which has been stated in this thread by others ). So to use a symbol of a Native American and then call your team Indians is hugely ignorant. Anyone who believes it’s ok to keep the name is wholly uneducated and tbh, an embarrassment to their ethnicity.
No these 2 things haven't "flew" over my head. Maybe you misread something. Me not being offended by those 3 words above is just my opinion and I recognize that opinion means nothing. I am well aware that there are plenty of others that may be offended by them. I agree that it is a slippery slope but thanks for assuming that I didn't.
I am well aware that Native Americans and people from India (Indians) are not the same thing. It doesn't bother me one bit that Cleveland is changing its nickname. If that organization and actual Native Americans want that change then by all means go for it!! As I have pointed out several times in this thread I don't agree with people telling others what they should think, how they should think, or what they should or shouldn't be offended by. Perfect example is your response above. Assumptions aren't good for anyone.
It is cumulative of your posts in this thread is what I was attacking. There is no grey area , the point is that just because you are not offended doesn’t make it ok. There is a right side of history and a wrong side.
Name needs to be changed , period. No excuse, no buts, no what if’s. It was wrong then and it’s wrong now. Only thing that has changed is minorities have a lot more power than they had before ( which wasn’t much at all )
As a historian I'd like to point out that history is history. It is skewed at times, but in the end, it is still history. There is no wrong or right side of facts imo.
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCstatehokie
You are not really behind your own argument of against telling others what they should or shouldn’t be offended. If you were staunch in your beliefs or a person of principle, you would not be posting on these forums. By agreeing to post on these forums and accepting the TOS, you freely admit to censorship and a degree of being told how you should think/behave/act on these forums.
You are not a moderator, so I believe your citation of the TOS is irrelevant, and your "holier than thou" lecturing of someone who has opinions that are different from your own isn't cool at all.
I'm quickly learning that's his mojo. Kudos to you if you want to continue engaging with him.
On another note I have enjoyed the discourse back and forth with you as well as reading your posts in this thread.
Thank you. It's been made abundantly clear that some people resort to petty name-calling when a decent argument, or just facts, are presented. I have enjoyed reading your posts as well, and I am pleased with the thoughtful discussion we've had.
I don’t think anyone’s argument can be considered “decent” if it ignores racism and systematic oppression and tries to brush said things off as “flaws”.
Progress isn’t easy or smooth. Progress sometimes is messy and takes provocation to achieve. Either way , the worst thing is to remain silent and maintain the status quo.
If even one person starts to rethink their thoughts about racism and oppression, then mission accomplished.
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