The Cleveland Baseball Team....
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Now is American history spotless and flawless? No, of course not. Nobody is perfect. But screwing over Native Americans was mostly Andrew Jackson's thing.
I would say that there was a lot more racism and problems than just the Andrew Jackson thing. The U.S. had been screwing them over before Jackson and after Jackson. Native Americans had a lot of stuff happening to them up until the 1900's when things started to get better. They were treated poorly and ostracized for decades.
No country is spotless though.
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@Kuhlkilla said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
Now is American history spotless and flawless? No, of course not. Nobody is perfect. But screwing over Native Americans was mostly Andrew Jackson's thing.
I would say that there was a lot more racism and problems than just the Andrew Jackson thing. The U.S. had been screwing them over before Jackson and after Jackson. Native Americans had a lot of stuff happening to them up until the 1900's when things started to get better. They were treated poorly and ostracized for decades.
No country is spotless though.
I would arguing that they are still being marginalized. When ever the government wants their land, they take it. (Oil pipe line ). Just because they are getting treated better doesn’t mean they are treated equally. Minorities ( some more than others ) are not treated equally in America. So yeah, goes way beyond Andrew Jackson.
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True! Good point! ^^^ @CalisGW
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To put this baby to rest and why America is not the “greatest” country as Ms Historian and others profess; look at how we classify people in America.
If you black? African American
Asian decent? Asian American
Latin? Latin American
And so on
But if you are white , simply American.Anything but white there is a “but” clause.
Almost every other country is different. Only America singles out ethnicity in that way. Subconsciously keeps minorities down and refers to them as second class citizens.When in truth. We are Americans, period.
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As someone who does not live in the US, the thing that stands out most to me about this discussion is how often the word, “opinion” is used.
While I think I see where the historian poster was coming from, it still all smacks, frankly, of entitlement and priviledge.
I don’t want to stir up a hornets nest, and I agree, having these kinds of discussions has some merit, but I just don’t see how racism is a matter of opinion.
Racism is racism. Sexism is sexism. True, in the past, what was considered racist or sexist was different, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t racist then and is suddenly racist now.
Chief Wahoo and the Indians name were racist. It is good that they are going away. That’s not my opinion. It’s a (now) commonly accepted reality.
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@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
So many white people crying about the name change. Just call them the Cleveland Crackers ( or anything offensive referring to white people ) and let’s move on.
Cleveland Whities
Cleveland Gringos
Cleveland White Boys
Cleveland Proud Boys
Cleveland Ku K.... you get the pointAs a white person am I supposed to be offended by all of these? The first 3 aren't remotely offensive to me. I claim ignorance on the Proud Boys and I want zero association with the 5th, hopefully that was assumed.
Two things in this thread that appears to flew over your head .
First, it’s a slippery slope when you start using names to describe a complete ethnicity. Where does it stop?
Second, native Americans are not Indians ( which has been stated in this thread by others ). So to use a symbol of a Native American and then call your team Indians is hugely ignorant. Anyone who believes it’s ok to keep the name is wholly uneducated and tbh, an embarrassment to their ethnicity.
No these 2 things haven't "flew" over my head. Maybe you misread something. Me not being offended by those 3 words above is just my opinion and I recognize that opinion means nothing. I am well aware that there are plenty of others that may be offended by them. I agree that it is a slippery slope but thanks for assuming that I didn't.
I am well aware that Native Americans and people from India (Indians) are not the same thing. It doesn't bother me one bit that Cleveland is changing its nickname. If that organization and actual Native Americans want that change then by all means go for it!! As I have pointed out several times in this thread I don't agree with people telling others what they should think, how they should think, or what they should or shouldn't be offended by. Perfect example is your response above. Assumptions aren't good for anyone.
It is cumulative of your posts in this thread is what I was attacking. There is no grey area , the point is that just because you are not offended doesn’t make it ok. There is a right side of history and a wrong side.
Name needs to be changed , period. No excuse, no buts, no what if’s. It was wrong then and it’s wrong now. Only thing that has changed is minorities have a lot more power than they had before ( which wasn’t much at all )
I don't even think you know what you are trying to argue now. Interesting you said attacking on your own accord because after reading some of your other threads that is all you seem to do. What does me not being offended by the 3 white nicknames mentioned earlier in this thread have to do with the Indians nickname???
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@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCstatehokie
You are not really behind your own argument of against telling others what they should or shouldn’t be offended. If you were staunch in your beliefs or a person of principle, you would not be posting on these forums. By agreeing to post on these forums and accepting the TOS, you freely admit to censorship and a degree of being told how you should think/behave/act on these forums.
You are way out there buddy. You seem like a bitter and angry person. I am also not sure how well you read and comprehend things. Based on your posts you seem to read what you think the post should say and not what it actually does. We are in completely different galaxies it seems and quite honestly I have no desire to go back and forth with someone like you on the internet. I don't need the negativity and I don't like arguing just for the sake of arguing. Hopefully you can find someone else who does. Good luck playing the Show!
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@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
So many white people crying about the name change. Just call them the Cleveland Crackers ( or anything offensive referring to white people ) and let’s move on.
Cleveland Whities
Cleveland Gringos
Cleveland White Boys
Cleveland Proud Boys
Cleveland Ku K.... you get the pointAs a white person am I supposed to be offended by all of these? The first 3 aren't remotely offensive to me. I claim ignorance on the Proud Boys and I want zero association with the 5th, hopefully that was assumed.
Two things in this thread that appears to flew over your head .
First, it’s a slippery slope when you start using names to describe a complete ethnicity. Where does it stop?
Second, native Americans are not Indians ( which has been stated in this thread by others ). So to use a symbol of a Native American and then call your team Indians is hugely ignorant. Anyone who believes it’s ok to keep the name is wholly uneducated and tbh, an embarrassment to their ethnicity.
No these 2 things haven't "flew" over my head. Maybe you misread something. Me not being offended by those 3 words above is just my opinion and I recognize that opinion means nothing. I am well aware that there are plenty of others that may be offended by them. I agree that it is a slippery slope but thanks for assuming that I didn't.
I am well aware that Native Americans and people from India (Indians) are not the same thing. It doesn't bother me one bit that Cleveland is changing its nickname. If that organization and actual Native Americans want that change then by all means go for it!! As I have pointed out several times in this thread I don't agree with people telling others what they should think, how they should think, or what they should or shouldn't be offended by. Perfect example is your response above. Assumptions aren't good for anyone.
It is cumulative of your posts in this thread is what I was attacking. There is no grey area , the point is that just because you are not offended doesn’t make it ok. There is a right side of history and a wrong side.
Name needs to be changed , period. No excuse, no buts, no what if’s. It was wrong then and it’s wrong now. Only thing that has changed is minorities have a lot more power than they had before ( which wasn’t much at all )
As a historian I'd like to point out that history is history. It is skewed at times, but in the end, it is still history. There is no wrong or right side of facts imo.
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCstatehokie
You are not really behind your own argument of against telling others what they should or shouldn’t be offended. If you were staunch in your beliefs or a person of principle, you would not be posting on these forums. By agreeing to post on these forums and accepting the TOS, you freely admit to censorship and a degree of being told how you should think/behave/act on these forums.
You are not a moderator, so I believe your citation of the TOS is irrelevant, and your "holier than thou" lecturing of someone who has opinions that are different from your own isn't cool at all.
I'm quickly learning that's his mojo. Kudos to you if you want to continue engaging with him.
On another note I have enjoyed the discourse back and forth with you as well as reading your posts in this thread.
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@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCstatehokie
You are not really behind your own argument of against telling others what they should or shouldn’t be offended. If you were staunch in your beliefs or a person of principle, you would not be posting on these forums. By agreeing to post on these forums and accepting the TOS, you freely admit to censorship and a degree of being told how you should think/behave/act on these forums.
You are way out there buddy. You seem like a bitter and angry person. I am also not sure how well you read and comprehend things. Based on your posts you seem to read what you think the post should say and not what it actually does. We are in completely different galaxies it seems and quite honestly I have no desire to go back and forth with someone like you on the internet. I don't need the negativity and I don't like arguing just for the sake of arguing. Hopefully you can find someone else who does. Good luck playing the Show!
The likes on my posts say otherwise. Just because you can’t comprehend the severity of racism in the name Indians or the racism in white people nicknames does not mean it does not exist. It’s cool though, keep being blind. Luckily more and more people everyday are seeing the truth about the past and standing up for the future.
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@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
So many white people crying about the name change. Just call them the Cleveland Crackers ( or anything offensive referring to white people ) and let’s move on.
Cleveland Whities
Cleveland Gringos
Cleveland White Boys
Cleveland Proud Boys
Cleveland Ku K.... you get the pointAs a white person am I supposed to be offended by all of these? The first 3 aren't remotely offensive to me. I claim ignorance on the Proud Boys and I want zero association with the 5th, hopefully that was assumed.
Two things in this thread that appears to flew over your head .
First, it’s a slippery slope when you start using names to describe a complete ethnicity. Where does it stop?
Second, native Americans are not Indians ( which has been stated in this thread by others ). So to use a symbol of a Native American and then call your team Indians is hugely ignorant. Anyone who believes it’s ok to keep the name is wholly uneducated and tbh, an embarrassment to their ethnicity.
No these 2 things haven't "flew" over my head. Maybe you misread something. Me not being offended by those 3 words above is just my opinion and I recognize that opinion means nothing. I am well aware that there are plenty of others that may be offended by them. I agree that it is a slippery slope but thanks for assuming that I didn't.
I am well aware that Native Americans and people from India (Indians) are not the same thing. It doesn't bother me one bit that Cleveland is changing its nickname. If that organization and actual Native Americans want that change then by all means go for it!! As I have pointed out several times in this thread I don't agree with people telling others what they should think, how they should think, or what they should or shouldn't be offended by. Perfect example is your response above. Assumptions aren't good for anyone.
It is cumulative of your posts in this thread is what I was attacking. There is no grey area , the point is that just because you are not offended doesn’t make it ok. There is a right side of history and a wrong side.
Name needs to be changed , period. No excuse, no buts, no what if’s. It was wrong then and it’s wrong now. Only thing that has changed is minorities have a lot more power than they had before ( which wasn’t much at all )
As a historian I'd like to point out that history is history. It is skewed at times, but in the end, it is still history. There is no wrong or right side of facts imo.
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCstatehokie
You are not really behind your own argument of against telling others what they should or shouldn’t be offended. If you were staunch in your beliefs or a person of principle, you would not be posting on these forums. By agreeing to post on these forums and accepting the TOS, you freely admit to censorship and a degree of being told how you should think/behave/act on these forums.
You are not a moderator, so I believe your citation of the TOS is irrelevant, and your "holier than thou" lecturing of someone who has opinions that are different from your own isn't cool at all.
I'm quickly learning that's his mojo. Kudos to you if you want to continue engaging with him.
On another note I have enjoyed the discourse back and forth with you as well as reading your posts in this thread.
Thank you. It's been made abundantly clear that some people resort to petty name-calling when a decent argument, or just facts, are presented. I have enjoyed reading your posts as well, and I am pleased with the thoughtful discussion we've had.
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@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
So many white people crying about the name change. Just call them the Cleveland Crackers ( or anything offensive referring to white people ) and let’s move on.
Cleveland Whities
Cleveland Gringos
Cleveland White Boys
Cleveland Proud Boys
Cleveland Ku K.... you get the pointAs a white person am I supposed to be offended by all of these? The first 3 aren't remotely offensive to me. I claim ignorance on the Proud Boys and I want zero association with the 5th, hopefully that was assumed.
Two things in this thread that appears to flew over your head .
First, it’s a slippery slope when you start using names to describe a complete ethnicity. Where does it stop?
Second, native Americans are not Indians ( which has been stated in this thread by others ). So to use a symbol of a Native American and then call your team Indians is hugely ignorant. Anyone who believes it’s ok to keep the name is wholly uneducated and tbh, an embarrassment to their ethnicity.
No these 2 things haven't "flew" over my head. Maybe you misread something. Me not being offended by those 3 words above is just my opinion and I recognize that opinion means nothing. I am well aware that there are plenty of others that may be offended by them. I agree that it is a slippery slope but thanks for assuming that I didn't.
I am well aware that Native Americans and people from India (Indians) are not the same thing. It doesn't bother me one bit that Cleveland is changing its nickname. If that organization and actual Native Americans want that change then by all means go for it!! As I have pointed out several times in this thread I don't agree with people telling others what they should think, how they should think, or what they should or shouldn't be offended by. Perfect example is your response above. Assumptions aren't good for anyone.
It is cumulative of your posts in this thread is what I was attacking. There is no grey area , the point is that just because you are not offended doesn’t make it ok. There is a right side of history and a wrong side.
Name needs to be changed , period. No excuse, no buts, no what if’s. It was wrong then and it’s wrong now. Only thing that has changed is minorities have a lot more power than they had before ( which wasn’t much at all )
As a historian I'd like to point out that history is history. It is skewed at times, but in the end, it is still history. There is no wrong or right side of facts imo.
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCstatehokie
You are not really behind your own argument of against telling others what they should or shouldn’t be offended. If you were staunch in your beliefs or a person of principle, you would not be posting on these forums. By agreeing to post on these forums and accepting the TOS, you freely admit to censorship and a degree of being told how you should think/behave/act on these forums.
You are not a moderator, so I believe your citation of the TOS is irrelevant, and your "holier than thou" lecturing of someone who has opinions that are different from your own isn't cool at all.
I'm quickly learning that's his mojo. Kudos to you if you want to continue engaging with him.
On another note I have enjoyed the discourse back and forth with you as well as reading your posts in this thread.
Thank you. It's been made abundantly clear that some people resort to petty name-calling when a decent argument, or just facts, are presented. I have enjoyed reading your posts as well, and I am pleased with the thoughtful discussion we've had.
I don’t think anyone’s argument can be considered “decent” if it ignores racism and systematic oppression and tries to brush said things off as “flaws”.
Progress isn’t easy or smooth. Progress sometimes is messy and takes provocation to achieve. Either way , the worst thing is to remain silent and maintain the status quo.
If even one person starts to rethink their thoughts about racism and oppression, then mission accomplished.
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