Judge is the GOAT?
-
@LIONED-33_XBL said in Judge is the GOAT?:
GOAT? No. Great Player? Yes
I'd put it in the category of GOAS (Greatest of all seasons). Right up there anyway.
-
I love how everyone says he plays in a little league stadium , like he is hitting wall scrapers.The guy hits monster shots that would be hr’s anywhere and also plays half his games on the road.
-
@Possum80_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
Judge is slightly ahead of Ohtani in war, so I think Judge should get it. If Ohtani were ahead, I would think he should get it (even if Judge had 70 homers…or 85 homers)
I'm not a huge fan of WAR, particularly not if the idea is to use it as the sole determining factor for the MVP. If I'm reading this right:
https://www.espn.com/mlb/war/leaders
it looks like Ohtani has been penalized -1.4 WAR for defense? As far as I can tell, Ohtani has not played any position other than P and DH. He's got a spotless 1.000 fielding percentage from the mound (in 4 attempts lol). So he loses -1.4 points just for being DH? That feels arbitrary. And if you take that -1.4 deduction away, he actually has a better WAR than Judge (10.2 vs. 9.7).
You could say that Ohtani being a DH should count against him, but that site says Judge has a -0.1 defensive WAR. So it's not like he's in the MVP talks for his glove, so it feels unfair to penalize Ohtani -1.4 WAR for not playing defense when Judge is playing defense but apparently not all that well.
-
@NCStateHokie_PSN said in Judge is the GOAT?:
I guess people just enjoying saying or typing the word GOAT. It gets thrown around WAY too often. Judge is having a heck of a season but the dude is 30 and only in his 7th season. He's not even in the discussion yet.
Once he breaks that record, you bet your a55 he will be.
-
@SchnauzerFace_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@Possum80_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
Judge is slightly ahead of Ohtani in war, so I think Judge should get it. If Ohtani were ahead, I would think he should get it (even if Judge had 70 homers…or 85 homers)
I'm not a huge fan of WAR, particularly not if the idea is to use it as the sole determining factor for the MVP. If I'm reading this right:
https://www.espn.com/mlb/war/leaders
it looks like Ohtani has been penalized -1.4 WAR for defense? As far as I can tell, Ohtani has not played any position other than P and DH. He's got a spotless 1.000 fielding percentage from the mound (in 4 attempts lol). So he loses -1.4 points just for being DH? That feels arbitrary. And if you take that -1.4 deduction away, he actually has a better WAR than Judge (10.2 vs. 9.7).
You could say that Ohtani being a DH should count against him, but that site says Judge has a -0.1 defensive WAR. So it's not like he's in the MVP talks for his glove, so it feels unfair to penalize Ohtani -1.4 WAR for not playing defense when Judge is playing defense but apparently not all that well.
Its not without flaws but I still think its probably the best way to generally show the value of a player.
The issue is that its not just so simple as adding OFF+DEF because of the positional adjustments that are used in both calculations. The ESPN chart shows not a single player has a total WAR that equals their OFF+DEF war. It also doesn't help that the calculations vary a bit (fangraphs have a bigger edge for Judge https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/war?season=&wartype=&lg=&team=)
Ohtani being a DH does count against his offensive WAR numbers, but its only a few tenths of a point at most. Its not as extreme as the defense-only WAR numbers indicate.
-
@Khain24_PSN said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@SchnauzerFace_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@Possum80_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
Judge is slightly ahead of Ohtani in war, so I think Judge should get it. If Ohtani were ahead, I would think he should get it (even if Judge had 70 homers…or 85 homers)
I'm not a huge fan of WAR, particularly not if the idea is to use it as the sole determining factor for the MVP. If I'm reading this right:
https://www.espn.com/mlb/war/leaders
it looks like Ohtani has been penalized -1.4 WAR for defense? As far as I can tell, Ohtani has not played any position other than P and DH. He's got a spotless 1.000 fielding percentage from the mound (in 4 attempts lol). So he loses -1.4 points just for being DH? That feels arbitrary. And if you take that -1.4 deduction away, he actually has a better WAR than Judge (10.2 vs. 9.7).
You could say that Ohtani being a DH should count against him, but that site says Judge has a -0.1 defensive WAR. So it's not like he's in the MVP talks for his glove, so it feels unfair to penalize Ohtani -1.4 WAR for not playing defense when Judge is playing defense but apparently not all that well.
Its not without flaws but I still think its probably the best way to generally show the value of a player.
The issue is that its not just so simple as adding OFF+DEF because of the positional adjustments that are used in both calculations. The ESPN chart shows not a single player has a total WAR that equals their OFF+DEF war. It also doesn't help that the calculations vary a bit (fangraphs have a bigger edge for Judge https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/war?season=&wartype=&lg=&team=)
Ohtani being a DH does count against his offensive WAR numbers, but its only a few tenths of a point at most. Its not as extreme as the defense-only WAR numbers indicate.
Another good way is to watch. Ohtani is clearly better than Judge.
-
Even as a Red Sox fan I have to say Judge deserves the MVP hands-down.
I mean if Judge's season isn't good enough to beat out Shohei, then what would it take?
-
@DeleteyourTTVBTW_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@Khain24_PSN said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@SchnauzerFace_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@Possum80_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
Judge is slightly ahead of Ohtani in war, so I think Judge should get it. If Ohtani were ahead, I would think he should get it (even if Judge had 70 homers…or 85 homers)
I'm not a huge fan of WAR, particularly not if the idea is to use it as the sole determining factor for the MVP. If I'm reading this right:
https://www.espn.com/mlb/war/leaders
it looks like Ohtani has been penalized -1.4 WAR for defense? As far as I can tell, Ohtani has not played any position other than P and DH. He's got a spotless 1.000 fielding percentage from the mound (in 4 attempts lol). So he loses -1.4 points just for being DH? That feels arbitrary. And if you take that -1.4 deduction away, he actually has a better WAR than Judge (10.2 vs. 9.7).
You could say that Ohtani being a DH should count against him, but that site says Judge has a -0.1 defensive WAR. So it's not like he's in the MVP talks for his glove, so it feels unfair to penalize Ohtani -1.4 WAR for not playing defense when Judge is playing defense but apparently not all that well.
Its not without flaws but I still think its probably the best way to generally show the value of a player.
The issue is that its not just so simple as adding OFF+DEF because of the positional adjustments that are used in both calculations. The ESPN chart shows not a single player has a total WAR that equals their OFF+DEF war. It also doesn't help that the calculations vary a bit (fangraphs have a bigger edge for Judge https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/war?season=&wartype=&lg=&team=)
Ohtani being a DH does count against his offensive WAR numbers, but its only a few tenths of a point at most. Its not as extreme as the defense-only WAR numbers indicate.
Another good way is to watch. Ohtani is clearly better than Judge.
Better at what? Pitching?
Ohtani is extremely talented, he’s having a very good year. Even with that, Judge should not only win MVP, it should be unanimous.
-
@Mike__Honcho_361 said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@DeleteyourTTVBTW_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@Khain24_PSN said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@SchnauzerFace_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@Possum80_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
Judge is slightly ahead of Ohtani in war, so I think Judge should get it. If Ohtani were ahead, I would think he should get it (even if Judge had 70 homers…or 85 homers)
I'm not a huge fan of WAR, particularly not if the idea is to use it as the sole determining factor for the MVP. If I'm reading this right:
https://www.espn.com/mlb/war/leaders
it looks like Ohtani has been penalized -1.4 WAR for defense? As far as I can tell, Ohtani has not played any position other than P and DH. He's got a spotless 1.000 fielding percentage from the mound (in 4 attempts lol). So he loses -1.4 points just for being DH? That feels arbitrary. And if you take that -1.4 deduction away, he actually has a better WAR than Judge (10.2 vs. 9.7).
You could say that Ohtani being a DH should count against him, but that site says Judge has a -0.1 defensive WAR. So it's not like he's in the MVP talks for his glove, so it feels unfair to penalize Ohtani -1.4 WAR for not playing defense when Judge is playing defense but apparently not all that well.
Its not without flaws but I still think its probably the best way to generally show the value of a player.
The issue is that its not just so simple as adding OFF+DEF because of the positional adjustments that are used in both calculations. The ESPN chart shows not a single player has a total WAR that equals their OFF+DEF war. It also doesn't help that the calculations vary a bit (fangraphs have a bigger edge for Judge https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/war?season=&wartype=&lg=&team=)
Ohtani being a DH does count against his offensive WAR numbers, but its only a few tenths of a point at most. Its not as extreme as the defense-only WAR numbers indicate.
Another good way is to watch. Ohtani is clearly better than Judge.
Better at what? Pitching?
Ohtani is extremely talented, he’s having a very good year. Even with that, Judge should not only win MVP, it should be unanimous.
Well its clearly not offensively so must be it. Even head to head Judge has an OPS of 3.500.
I'd love to see what Ohtani could do on a decent team in actual pressure/clutch situations. He's crumbled every time he plays in NY.
-
@Khain24_PSN said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@Mike__Honcho_361 said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@DeleteyourTTVBTW_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@Khain24_PSN said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@SchnauzerFace_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@Possum80_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
Judge is slightly ahead of Ohtani in war, so I think Judge should get it. If Ohtani were ahead, I would think he should get it (even if Judge had 70 homers…or 85 homers)
I'm not a huge fan of WAR, particularly not if the idea is to use it as the sole determining factor for the MVP. If I'm reading this right:
https://www.espn.com/mlb/war/leaders
it looks like Ohtani has been penalized -1.4 WAR for defense? As far as I can tell, Ohtani has not played any position other than P and DH. He's got a spotless 1.000 fielding percentage from the mound (in 4 attempts lol). So he loses -1.4 points just for being DH? That feels arbitrary. And if you take that -1.4 deduction away, he actually has a better WAR than Judge (10.2 vs. 9.7).
You could say that Ohtani being a DH should count against him, but that site says Judge has a -0.1 defensive WAR. So it's not like he's in the MVP talks for his glove, so it feels unfair to penalize Ohtani -1.4 WAR for not playing defense when Judge is playing defense but apparently not all that well.
Its not without flaws but I still think its probably the best way to generally show the value of a player.
The issue is that its not just so simple as adding OFF+DEF because of the positional adjustments that are used in both calculations. The ESPN chart shows not a single player has a total WAR that equals their OFF+DEF war. It also doesn't help that the calculations vary a bit (fangraphs have a bigger edge for Judge https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/war?season=&wartype=&lg=&team=)
Ohtani being a DH does count against his offensive WAR numbers, but its only a few tenths of a point at most. Its not as extreme as the defense-only WAR numbers indicate.
Another good way is to watch. Ohtani is clearly better than Judge.
Better at what? Pitching?
Ohtani is extremely talented, he’s having a very good year. Even with that, Judge should not only win MVP, it should be unanimous.
Well its clearly not offensively so must be it. Even head to head Judge has an OPS of 3.500.
I'd love to see what Ohtani could do on a decent team in actual pressure/clutch situations. He's crumbled every time he plays in NY.
Yikes, you ain’t kidding! He has a career 27.00 ERA vs the yanks (!!!) as a pitcher and a .200 BA. Only
2 starts, so it’s a small sample, but he’s only managed to go 3.2 IP total.This site doesn’t break down OBP or Slugging (I’m sure there’s a better database somewhere), but he’s 12-60. Strangely, of those 12 hits, 9 are XBH (7 HR, 2 2B). Sounds like he’s pressing too much on the big stage, but when he connects it goes a long way.
Pitching: https://www.statmuse.com/mlb/ask/shohei-ohtani-era-career-vs-each-team
Hitting: https://www.statmuse.com/mlb/ask/shohei-ohtani-career-vs-yankees
-
@SchnauzerFace_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@Possum80_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
Judge is slightly ahead of Ohtani in war, so I think Judge should get it. If Ohtani were ahead, I would think he should get it (even if Judge had 70 homers…or 85 homers)
I'm not a huge fan of WAR, particularly not if the idea is to use it as the sole determining factor for the MVP. If I'm reading this right:
https://www.espn.com/mlb/war/leaders
it looks like Ohtani has been penalized -1.4 WAR for defense? As far as I can tell, Ohtani has not played any position other than P and DH. He's got a spotless 1.000 fielding percentage from the mound (in 4 attempts lol). So he loses -1.4 points just for being DH? That feels arbitrary. And if you take that -1.4 deduction away, he actually has a better WAR than Judge (10.2 vs. 9.7).
You could say that Ohtani being a DH should count against him, but that site says Judge has a -0.1 defensive WAR. So it's not like he's in the MVP talks for his glove, so it feels unfair to penalize Ohtani -1.4 WAR for not playing defense when Judge is playing defense but apparently not all that well.
What do you not like about WAR?
-
@SchnauzerFace_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@Khain24_PSN said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@Mike__Honcho_361 said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@DeleteyourTTVBTW_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@Khain24_PSN said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@SchnauzerFace_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@Possum80_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
Judge is slightly ahead of Ohtani in war, so I think Judge should get it. If Ohtani were ahead, I would think he should get it (even if Judge had 70 homers…or 85 homers)
I'm not a huge fan of WAR, particularly not if the idea is to use it as the sole determining factor for the MVP. If I'm reading this right:
https://www.espn.com/mlb/war/leaders
it looks like Ohtani has been penalized -1.4 WAR for defense? As far as I can tell, Ohtani has not played any position other than P and DH. He's got a spotless 1.000 fielding percentage from the mound (in 4 attempts lol). So he loses -1.4 points just for being DH? That feels arbitrary. And if you take that -1.4 deduction away, he actually has a better WAR than Judge (10.2 vs. 9.7).
You could say that Ohtani being a DH should count against him, but that site says Judge has a -0.1 defensive WAR. So it's not like he's in the MVP talks for his glove, so it feels unfair to penalize Ohtani -1.4 WAR for not playing defense when Judge is playing defense but apparently not all that well.
Its not without flaws but I still think its probably the best way to generally show the value of a player.
The issue is that its not just so simple as adding OFF+DEF because of the positional adjustments that are used in both calculations. The ESPN chart shows not a single player has a total WAR that equals their OFF+DEF war. It also doesn't help that the calculations vary a bit (fangraphs have a bigger edge for Judge https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/war?season=&wartype=&lg=&team=)
Ohtani being a DH does count against his offensive WAR numbers, but its only a few tenths of a point at most. Its not as extreme as the defense-only WAR numbers indicate.
Another good way is to watch. Ohtani is clearly better than Judge.
Better at what? Pitching?
Ohtani is extremely talented, he’s having a very good year. Even with that, Judge should not only win MVP, it should be unanimous.
Well its clearly not offensively so must be it. Even head to head Judge has an OPS of 3.500.
I'd love to see what Ohtani could do on a decent team in actual pressure/clutch situations. He's crumbled every time he plays in NY.
Yikes, you ain’t kidding! He has a career 27.00 ERA vs the yanks (!!!) as a pitcher and a .200 BA. Only
2 starts, so it’s a small sample, but he’s only managed to go 3.2 IP total.This site doesn’t break down OBP or Slugging (I’m sure there’s a better database somewhere), but he’s 12-60. Strangely, of those 12 hits, 9 are XBH (7 HR, 2 2B). Sounds like he’s pressing too much on the big stage, but when he connects it goes a long way.
Pitching: https://www.statmuse.com/mlb/ask/shohei-ohtani-era-career-vs-each-team
Hitting: https://www.statmuse.com/mlb/ask/shohei-ohtani-career-vs-yankees
I like to use baseball-reference.com for some of the basic and low-end advance stats. Baseball savant is also good for a lot of the statcast stuff.
This link shows specifically what he's done at Yankee Stadium (5/36 in 10 games -- .139 Avg / .661 OPS). Hilariously in 2021 when he had his big offensive season he was 3/15 with all 3 being HRs so he hit .200 but OPS was 1.000. Baseball is wild.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/tools/split_stats.cgi?full=1¶ms=site|NYC21|ohtansh01|bat|AB|
People love to give Judge a lot of [censored] for striking out a ton but the man's chase rate for his career is like 23% per baseball savant (MLB average is 28.4%). Ohtani fwiw is 27.9% and he also strikes out a lot (he's like 15 behind Judge this year or something like that).
I really think Judge gets punished a ton on low strikes and it forces him to either go down looking or chase pitches he doesn't like.
-
@SchnauzerFace_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
I love Judge and I hope he wins the triple crown. His HR chase has been very good for baseball. He and Pujols have managed to take a little focus off the Tatis story, so that's very good. But even with the insane season he's having, I still would lean toward Ohtani for MVP. Obviously he's having a great season on both sides of the ball. And the ripple effect of only having to use one roster spot for an ace and a DH is nuts. That means you can have an extra starter to stretch out your rotation, or carry a 3rd catcher, or have a Terence Gore type player on the bench whose only job is to steal bags. That kind of roster flexibility is something no one else in the league can provide.
And to put it further into perspective, Ohtani is having a very, very comparable offensive year to Austin Riley, and he also has very comparable pitching numbers to Alek Manoah (though Manoah does have 35 more IP, which is a big deal). So he really does have the value of two all-star players. Judge is having an absolutely nutso year and will almost certainly win the MVP, but I don't think Ohtani should be forgotten (even if his team could end up in 4th place).
I’m with you bro! I don’t give a [censored] what the Judge discipline say! Any year you have a player have a sub 2.50 era with over 25 starts AND drop 35 bombs, I mean I’m sorry. I could see if everyone was doing it but……NOBODY is doing it! Nobody has EVER done it! I never thought I’d say I don’t care that Judge is gonna win the triple crown……but I don’t!
-
@Alpha-WoLf-x1x_XBL said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@NCStateHokie_PSN said in Judge is the GOAT?:
I guess people just enjoying saying or typing the word GOAT. It gets thrown around WAY too often. Judge is having a heck of a season but the dude is 30 and only in his 7th season. He's not even in the discussion yet.
Once he breaks that record, you bet your a55 he will be.
I'm not sure you know how this works. If his career ended after this season you'd have to debate him even getting in the Hall. Forget GOAT discussion.
-
You have to think the Yanks being in the playoffs and winning the division will play some role in the MVP race. Who adds more value to their team? If you take Judge off the Yankees where are they this season? If you take Shohei off the Angels where are they?
-
I have the answer!!! Let’s have a home run derby but they have to pitch to each other. Ohtani get to throw Judge 50 pitches and then Judge gets to throw Ohtani 50 pitches. Most home runs is MVP!!! Lol
I don’t care about WAR and I don’t care about the triple crown. Nobody is doing what Ohtani is doing! Judge could hit 80 home runs and hit .400 and I still wouldn’t care. -
He’s not anywhere near the GOAT he has had an amazing year but this is literally the only his 3rd season playing more than 140 games and he just turned 30. If there was an over under line of 3 more seasons of a 140 games for the rest of his career I’d slap all my money on the under
-
@mjfc_363_PSN said in Judge is the GOAT?:
@SchnauzerFace_MLBTS said in Judge is the GOAT?:
I love Judge and I hope he wins the triple crown. His HR chase has been very good for baseball. He and Pujols have managed to take a little focus off the Tatis story, so that's very good. But even with the insane season he's having, I still would lean toward Ohtani for MVP. Obviously he's having a great season on both sides of the ball. And the ripple effect of only having to use one roster spot for an ace and a DH is nuts. That means you can have an extra starter to stretch out your rotation, or carry a 3rd catcher, or have a Terence Gore type player on the bench whose only job is to steal bags. That kind of roster flexibility is something no one else in the league can provide.
And to put it further into perspective, Ohtani is having a very, very comparable offensive year to Austin Riley, and he also has very comparable pitching numbers to Alek Manoah (though Manoah does have 35 more IP, which is a big deal). So he really does have the value of two all-star players. Judge is having an absolutely nutso year and will almost certainly win the MVP, but I don't think Ohtani should be forgotten (even if his team could end up in 4th place).
I’m with you bro! I don’t give a [censored] what the Judge discipline say! Any year you have a player have a sub 2.50 era with over 25 starts AND drop 35 bombs, I mean I’m sorry. I could see if everyone was doing it but……NOBODY is doing it! Nobody has EVER done it! I never thought I’d say I don’t care that Judge is gonna win the triple crown……but I don’t!
It’s the most VALUABLE player, not the most UNIQUE player, so why would the award not go to the player who produced the most value? Judge has an 1.100 ops- that’s good for a 217 ops+ he’s having a historically amazing season. I get that Ohtani is too- I just don’t think Ohtani should win the MVP every season he stays healthy, just bc no one else is doing what he’s doing.
-
I do kinda miss the days when the MVP was based partly on how competitive the team is.
Based on his skill set, Ohtani is the best player in the game. But the Angels still aren't going to the playoffs with or without him.
Judge is the engine behind a playoff team and is having a top 10 all time offensive season. -
I have dominated with all of his cards... I cannot wait for his Finest
