Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article
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@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@whiplash0013_psn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
We all know the main names that are in the Mitchell report, and those most suspected of PEDs. It still doesnt make sense to me that they have been blackballed while others have been inducted. Biggio, Bagwell, Pudge, Piazza. They have known and admitted amphetamine users in, as well as known and admitted cocaine users.
At this point its strictly being vindictive against certain players, while turning a blind eye towards others.
Piazza took Andro which was not a banned substance at the time. So, he never broke the rules. He is a bit different.
Piazza is as suspected as the others. McGwire most famously took andro, and had it visible to all in his locker. I dont see that much of a difference to those currently being blackballed. I still dont understand why the baseball writers have looked the other way for some suspected, known, and/or admitted users while being so adamantly against other players.
I don't agree with that. He admitted to taking Andro before Andro was a banned substance and stopped taking it before that. He never took the clear or cream which were true PED's. He also didn't have the huge (or any) climb in numbers at any point in his career such as Bonds or Clemens.
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@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
We all know the main names that are in the Mitchell report, and those most suspected of PEDs. It still doesnt make sense to me that they have been blackballed while others have been inducted. Biggio, Bagwell, Pudge, Piazza. They have known and admitted amphetamine users in, as well as known and admitted cocaine users.
At this point its strictly being vindictive against certain players, while turning a blind eye towards others.
It’s simple. Bond was not well liked. Writers loved to dig up dirt and Bonds was abrasive right back. Bonds also broke some sacred record. That was already broken before by McGuire first. And then Bonds went on to hit the most home runs for a career.
Clemens is similar to Bonds in regards to being viewed as a [censored]. He won a record amount of Cy Youngs. He was considered the best pitcher of his era.
I think more than anything the MLB just doesn’t want these guys to represent them as all time greats. The other players mentioned piazza, pudge... all good players but they aren’t in conversations as the best ever. Baseball can deal with lesser greats getting in.
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@quinnymcquinn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
We all know the main names that are in the Mitchell report, and those most suspected of PEDs. It still doesnt make sense to me that they have been blackballed while others have been inducted. Biggio, Bagwell, Pudge, Piazza. They have known and admitted amphetamine users in, as well as known and admitted cocaine users.
At this point its strictly being vindictive against certain players, while turning a blind eye towards others.
It’s simple. Bond was not well liked. Writers loved to dig up dirt and Bonds was abrasive right back. Bonds also broke some sacred record. That was already broken before by McGuire first. And then Bonds went on to hit the most home runs for a career.
Clemens is similar to Bonds in regards to being viewed as a [censored]. He won a record amount of Cy Youngs. He was considered the best pitcher of his era.
I think more than anything the MLB just doesn’t want these guys to represent them as all time greats. The other players mentioned piazza, pudge... all good players but they aren’t in conversations as the best ever. Baseball can deal with lesser greats getting in.
I understand your point, but why not McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, Manny, etc? You can say that they hold Bonds and Clemens higher as they are in the conversation for greatest ever. The other names arent. Again, why did the writers choose to put it some known cheaters while vilifying other non-greatest of all time players? Some voters have voted for all of them, but I'm strictly asking about those that voted for Bagwell, Pudge, etc, but not Sosa, Palmeiro, etc.
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@jogger171717_psn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
So the article pretty much shows exactly what I’ve always said, that both Bonds and Clemens had HoF careers even without the steroids.
But that is a big what if; he did take them, so it really doesn’t matter. I do believe he would have got in. However, he chose to make a mistake that cost him.
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@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
We all know the main names that are in the Mitchell report, and those most suspected of PEDs. It still doesnt make sense to me that they have been blackballed while others have been inducted. Biggio, Bagwell, Pudge, Piazza. They have known and admitted amphetamine users in, as well as known and admitted cocaine users.
At this point its strictly being vindictive against certain players, while turning a blind eye towards others.
Cocaine and Speed doesn't cause your head to grow 3x larger among other body enhancements and they definitely dont turn back the clock on father time making you better at 39-40 than you were at 29-30. GTFOH
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@ustoopid2_psn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
We all know the main names that are in the Mitchell report, and those most suspected of PEDs. It still doesnt make sense to me that they have been blackballed while others have been inducted. Biggio, Bagwell, Pudge, Piazza. They have known and admitted amphetamine users in, as well as known and admitted cocaine users.
At this point its strictly being vindictive against certain players, while turning a blind eye towards others.
Cocaine and Speed doesn't cause your head to grow 3x larger among other body enhancements and they definitely dont turn back the clock on father time making you better at 39-40 than you were at 29-30. GTFOH
But they are illegal by the rules. They certainly have benefits, which is why people use them. It's still cheating, or knowingly breaking the rules to gain an advantage. There is obviously a difference in advantage given between substances, but the fact remains that it's still cheating.
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@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@quinnymcquinn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
We all know the main names that are in the Mitchell report, and those most suspected of PEDs. It still doesnt make sense to me that they have been blackballed while others have been inducted. Biggio, Bagwell, Pudge, Piazza. They have known and admitted amphetamine users in, as well as known and admitted cocaine users.
At this point its strictly being vindictive against certain players, while turning a blind eye towards others.
It’s simple. Bond was not well liked. Writers loved to dig up dirt and Bonds was abrasive right back. Bonds also broke some sacred record. That was already broken before by McGuire first. And then Bonds went on to hit the most home runs for a career.
Clemens is similar to Bonds in regards to being viewed as a [censored]. He won a record amount of Cy Youngs. He was considered the best pitcher of his era.
I think more than anything the MLB just doesn’t want these guys to represent them as all time greats. The other players mentioned piazza, pudge... all good players but they aren’t in conversations as the best ever. Baseball can deal with lesser greats getting in.
You can say that they hold Bonds and Clemens higher as they are in the conversation for greatest ever. The other names arent.
Yes. And I agree with the rest of what you are saying and the questions you are asking. If it’s wrong for one player to juice it’s wrong for all. And either you let no juicers in or you let the greatest juicers in
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@quinnymcquinn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@quinnymcquinn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
We all know the main names that are in the Mitchell report, and those most suspected of PEDs. It still doesnt make sense to me that they have been blackballed while others have been inducted. Biggio, Bagwell, Pudge, Piazza. They have known and admitted amphetamine users in, as well as known and admitted cocaine users.
At this point its strictly being vindictive against certain players, while turning a blind eye towards others.
It’s simple. Bond was not well liked. Writers loved to dig up dirt and Bonds was abrasive right back. Bonds also broke some sacred record. That was already broken before by McGuire first. And then Bonds went on to hit the most home runs for a career.
Clemens is similar to Bonds in regards to being viewed as a [censored]. He won a record amount of Cy Youngs. He was considered the best pitcher of his era.
I think more than anything the MLB just doesn’t want these guys to represent them as all time greats. The other players mentioned piazza, pudge... all good players but they aren’t in conversations as the best ever. Baseball can deal with lesser greats getting in.
You can say that they hold Bonds and Clemens higher as they are in the conversation for greatest ever. The other names arent.
Yes. And I agree with the rest of what you are saying and the questions you are asking. If it’s wrong for one player to juice it’s wrong for all. And either you let no juicers in or you let the greatest juicers in
Agreed.
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@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@ustoopid2_psn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
We all know the main names that are in the Mitchell report, and those most suspected of PEDs. It still doesnt make sense to me that they have been blackballed while others have been inducted. Biggio, Bagwell, Pudge, Piazza. They have known and admitted amphetamine users in, as well as known and admitted cocaine users.
At this point its strictly being vindictive against certain players, while turning a blind eye towards others.
Cocaine and Speed doesn't cause your head to grow 3x larger among other body enhancements and they definitely dont turn back the clock on father time making you better at 39-40 than you were at 29-30. GTFOH
But they are illegal by the rules. They certainly have benefits, which is why people use them. It's still cheating, or knowingly breaking the rules to gain an advantage. There is obviously a difference in advantage given between substances, but the fact remains that it's still cheating.
They aren't using cocaine to play baseball better, they do cocaine to get high. People use steroids to play sports better hence why they are called Performance Enhancing Drugs. Cocaine isnt classified as a PED.
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Who cares let them all in. They revived baseball and it was fun as hell to watch. HOF worthy in my book
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@exotic_combs_psn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
Who cares let them all in. They revived baseball and it was fun as hell to watch. HOF worthy in my book
I really dont care if either make it but I do care that Bonds set records he would not have set had he not used steroids. He definitely shouldn't be viewed as the all time HR leader
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Well he hit the most home runs so it sounds like he should to me. Haha I get your point but I do not agree
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@gradekthebard said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@jogger171717_psn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
So the article pretty much shows exactly what I’ve always said, that both Bonds and Clemens had HoF careers even without the steroids.
And Pete Rose had a HoF career without the gambling, Joe Jackson without the Black Sox, and Mattingly without the back problems. Guess what, neither Bonds nor Clemens are getting in and I’d go,further to say the veterans committee let’s in McGwire before them too.
Good thing you don’t have a say in it, because both bonds and Clemens are 100% going to get in eventually, even if it is via the veterans committee.
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In the end I don't care much one way or the other, but once you let Bond or Clemens in then you have to open the door to the possibility of letting all of the other worthy players who were either guilty or suspected of steroid use. Once they vote one of them in then things are going to get messy.
I am also of the opinion that if you used any type of enhancing drug before it was against the rules then their should be more leeway than if you used enhancers after they were specially listed as banned.
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@ustoopid2_psn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@ustoopid2_psn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
We all know the main names that are in the Mitchell report, and those most suspected of PEDs. It still doesnt make sense to me that they have been blackballed while others have been inducted. Biggio, Bagwell, Pudge, Piazza. They have known and admitted amphetamine users in, as well as known and admitted cocaine users.
At this point its strictly being vindictive against certain players, while turning a blind eye towards others.
Cocaine and Speed doesn't cause your head to grow 3x larger among other body enhancements and they definitely dont turn back the clock on father time making you better at 39-40 than you were at 29-30. GTFOH
But they are illegal by the rules. They certainly have benefits, which is why people use them. It's still cheating, or knowingly breaking the rules to gain an advantage. There is obviously a difference in advantage given between substances, but the fact remains that it's still cheating.
They aren't using cocaine to play baseball better, they do cocaine to get high. People use steroids to play sports better hence why they are called Performance Enhancing Drugs. Cocaine isnt classified as a PED.
Raines kept a vial in his pocket that he would hit when he needed a pick up. You're telling me that players didnt think it helped them on the field? What about amphetamines? Many players including some all time greats like Mays, Aaron and Schmidt have admitted to taking them for the perks they gave them.
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@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@ustoopid2_psn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@ustoopid2_psn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
We all know the main names that are in the Mitchell report, and those most suspected of PEDs. It still doesnt make sense to me that they have been blackballed while others have been inducted. Biggio, Bagwell, Pudge, Piazza. They have known and admitted amphetamine users in, as well as known and admitted cocaine users.
At this point its strictly being vindictive against certain players, while turning a blind eye towards others.
Cocaine and Speed doesn't cause your head to grow 3x larger among other body enhancements and they definitely dont turn back the clock on father time making you better at 39-40 than you were at 29-30. GTFOH
But they are illegal by the rules. They certainly have benefits, which is why people use them. It's still cheating, or knowingly breaking the rules to gain an advantage. There is obviously a difference in advantage given between substances, but the fact remains that it's still cheating.
They aren't using cocaine to play baseball better, they do cocaine to get high. People use steroids to play sports better hence why they are called Performance Enhancing Drugs. Cocaine isnt classified as a PED.
Raines kept a vial in his pocket that he would hit when he needed a pick up. You're telling me that players didnt think it helped them on the field? What about amphetamines? Many players including some all time greats like Mays, Aaron and Schmidt have admitted to taking them for the perks they gave them.
Some drug addict thinking something helps is completely different than something scientifically proven to help. Ive done cocaine before and I promise you it only helps you spend money and stay awake thats about it.
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@exotic_combs_psn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
Well he hit the most home runs so it sounds like he should to me. Haha I get your point but I do not agree
Thats fine, you are entitled to your opinions as I am also. I understand also just using steroids doesn't guarantee results especially being able to hit a baseball with a bat, but it does help increase bat speed which does enhance his chance of hitting long balls. I would even goes as far as saying it helps more than taking some type of speed which would only increase someone's heart beat not bat speed. You might get a edge in concentration also depending on how the drug affects the player
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@ustoopid2_psn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@ustoopid2_psn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@ustoopid2_psn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
We all know the main names that are in the Mitchell report, and those most suspected of PEDs. It still doesnt make sense to me that they have been blackballed while others have been inducted. Biggio, Bagwell, Pudge, Piazza. They have known and admitted amphetamine users in, as well as known and admitted cocaine users.
At this point its strictly being vindictive against certain players, while turning a blind eye towards others.
Cocaine and Speed doesn't cause your head to grow 3x larger among other body enhancements and they definitely dont turn back the clock on father time making you better at 39-40 than you were at 29-30. GTFOH
But they are illegal by the rules. They certainly have benefits, which is why people use them. It's still cheating, or knowingly breaking the rules to gain an advantage. There is obviously a difference in advantage given between substances, but the fact remains that it's still cheating.
They aren't using cocaine to play baseball better, they do cocaine to get high. People use steroids to play sports better hence why they are called Performance Enhancing Drugs. Cocaine isnt classified as a PED.
Raines kept a vial in his pocket that he would hit when he needed a pick up. You're telling me that players didnt think it helped them on the field? What about amphetamines? Many players including some all time greats like Mays, Aaron and Schmidt have admitted to taking them for the perks they gave them.
Some drug addict thinking something helps is completely different than something scientifically proven to help. Ive done cocaine before and I promise you it only helps you spend money and stay awake thats about it.
I appreciate your experience on the subject, as it's not something I have any with. I will cede the discussion at this point. I was going by what I have read in peoples quotes as well as articles. I do agree with your take on Bonds v Aaron.
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@dolenz_psn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
In the end I don't care much one way or the other, but once you let Bond or Clemens in then you have to open the door to the possibility of letting all of the other worthy players who were either guilty or suspected of steroid use. Once they vote one of them in then things are going to get messy.
I am also of the opinion that if you used any type of enhancing drug before it was against the rules then their should be more leeway than if you used enhancers after they were specially listed as banned.
I don’t really care either way anymore. I will always choose to look at their stats and records as tainted.
But I never liked the argument that they didn’t break the rules. Steroids are and were illegal. Because MLB didn’t have a specific rule and punishment setup is just semantics. They probably don’t have a specific rule about rape or murder either but it’s still against the rules.
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@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@ustoopid2_psn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@ustoopid2_psn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
We all know the main names that are in the Mitchell report, and those most suspected of PEDs. It still doesnt make sense to me that they have been blackballed while others have been inducted. Biggio, Bagwell, Pudge, Piazza. They have known and admitted amphetamine users in, as well as known and admitted cocaine users.
At this point its strictly being vindictive against certain players, while turning a blind eye towards others.
Cocaine and Speed doesn't cause your head to grow 3x larger among other body enhancements and they definitely dont turn back the clock on father time making you better at 39-40 than you were at 29-30. GTFOH
But they are illegal by the rules. They certainly have benefits, which is why people use them. It's still cheating, or knowingly breaking the rules to gain an advantage. There is obviously a difference in advantage given between substances, but the fact remains that it's still cheating.
They aren't using cocaine to play baseball better, they do cocaine to get high. People use steroids to play sports better hence why they are called Performance Enhancing Drugs. Cocaine isnt classified as a PED.
Raines kept a vial in his pocket that he would hit when he needed a pick up. You're telling me that players didnt think it helped them on the field? What about amphetamines? Many players including some all time greats like Mays, Aaron and Schmidt have admitted to taking them for the perks they gave them.
Taking something akin to a buttload of caffeine isn’t going to make you better at sports or aid in recuperating faster from injury.
