Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article
-
I know there are people that say a cheater is a cheater and is undeserving of the HOF. We can’t undo anything that these players did. What we can do is speculate. This is just some interesting speculation from a stat guy that’s way more advanced in metrics than my beer maff.
-
So the article pretty much shows exactly what I’ve always said, that both Bonds and Clemens had HoF careers even without the steroids.
-
@quinnymcquinn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
I know there are people that say a cheater is a cheater and is undeserving of the HOF. We can’t undo anything that these players did. What we can do is speculate. This is just some interesting speculation from a stat guy that’s way more advanced in metrics than my beer maff.
Nice find man. Good read.
-
@jogger171717_psn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
So the article pretty much shows exactly what I’ve always said, that both Bonds and Clemens had HoF careers even without the steroids.
I’m not convinced Clemens did use them, but Bonds was definitely a HoF worthy player. He didn’t need to take PEDs. Unfortunately for him, he did. Along with others who didn’t need them. It’s the MLBs fault too.
By the way, I didn’t read the article yet. But I am curious as to what it says. -
As I’ve always said, bonds would have never broke the homerun record single season or all time without juicing. He was heading to the HOF and he decided to enhance his game as other’s in that era did. So instead of his total career use his stats before he used Balco and see if that is enough to get him elected.
-
@jogger171717_psn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
So the article pretty much shows exactly what I’ve always said, that both Bonds and Clemens had HoF careers even without the steroids.
And Pete Rose had a HoF career without the gambling, Joe Jackson without the Black Sox, and Mattingly without the back problems. Guess what, neither Bonds nor Clemens are getting in and I’d go,further to say the veterans committee let’s in McGwire before them too.
-
We all know the main names that are in the Mitchell report, and those most suspected of PEDs. It still doesnt make sense to me that they have been blackballed while others have been inducted. Biggio, Bagwell, Pudge, Piazza. They have known and admitted amphetamine users in, as well as known and admitted cocaine users.
At this point its strictly being vindictive against certain players, while turning a blind eye towards others.
-
@quinnymcquinn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
I know there are people that say a cheater is a cheater and is undeserving of the HOF. We can’t undo anything that these players did. What we can do is speculate. This is just some interesting speculation from a stat guy that’s way more advanced in metrics than my beer maff.
Great article. And... Now I know you can read! Win/win.
-
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
We all know the main names that are in the Mitchell report, and those most suspected of PEDs. It still doesnt make sense to me that they have been blackballed while others have been inducted. Biggio, Bagwell, Pudge, Piazza. They have known and admitted amphetamine users in, as well as known and admitted cocaine users.
At this point its strictly being vindictive against certain players, while turning a blind eye towards others.
Piazza took Andro which was not a banned substance at the time. So, he never broke the rules. He is a bit different.
-
@gradekthebard said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@jogger171717_psn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
So the article pretty much shows exactly what I’ve always said, that both Bonds and Clemens had HoF careers even without the steroids.
And Pete Rose had a HoF career without the gambling, Joe Jackson without the Black Sox, and Mattingly without the back problems. Guess what, neither Bonds nor Clemens are getting in and I’d go,further to say the veterans committee let’s in McGwire before them too.
All three will get in next year via the veterans committee. BBWAA is a joke anyway. Regardless of what they think about steroid users, it's an absolute joke that they haven't elected Billy Wagner yet. I don't even think its debatable that he is the 2nd best relief pitcher of all time
-
@whiplash0013_psn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
We all know the main names that are in the Mitchell report, and those most suspected of PEDs. It still doesnt make sense to me that they have been blackballed while others have been inducted. Biggio, Bagwell, Pudge, Piazza. They have known and admitted amphetamine users in, as well as known and admitted cocaine users.
At this point its strictly being vindictive against certain players, while turning a blind eye towards others.
Piazza took Andro which was not a banned substance at the time. So, he never broke the rules. He is a bit different.
Piazza is as suspected as the others. McGwire most famously took andro, and had it visible to all in his locker. I dont see that much of a difference to those currently being blackballed. I still dont understand why the baseball writers have looked the other way for some suspected, known, and/or admitted users while being so adamantly against other players.
-
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@whiplash0013_psn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
We all know the main names that are in the Mitchell report, and those most suspected of PEDs. It still doesnt make sense to me that they have been blackballed while others have been inducted. Biggio, Bagwell, Pudge, Piazza. They have known and admitted amphetamine users in, as well as known and admitted cocaine users.
At this point its strictly being vindictive against certain players, while turning a blind eye towards others.
Piazza took Andro which was not a banned substance at the time. So, he never broke the rules. He is a bit different.
Piazza is as suspected as the others. McGwire most famously took andro, and had it visible to all in his locker. I dont see that much of a difference to those currently being blackballed. I still dont understand why the baseball writers have looked the other way for some suspected, known, and/or admitted users while being so adamantly against other players.
I don't agree with that. He admitted to taking Andro before Andro was a banned substance and stopped taking it before that. He never took the clear or cream which were true PED's. He also didn't have the huge (or any) climb in numbers at any point in his career such as Bonds or Clemens.
-
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
We all know the main names that are in the Mitchell report, and those most suspected of PEDs. It still doesnt make sense to me that they have been blackballed while others have been inducted. Biggio, Bagwell, Pudge, Piazza. They have known and admitted amphetamine users in, as well as known and admitted cocaine users.
At this point its strictly being vindictive against certain players, while turning a blind eye towards others.
It’s simple. Bond was not well liked. Writers loved to dig up dirt and Bonds was abrasive right back. Bonds also broke some sacred record. That was already broken before by McGuire first. And then Bonds went on to hit the most home runs for a career.
Clemens is similar to Bonds in regards to being viewed as a [censored]. He won a record amount of Cy Youngs. He was considered the best pitcher of his era.
I think more than anything the MLB just doesn’t want these guys to represent them as all time greats. The other players mentioned piazza, pudge... all good players but they aren’t in conversations as the best ever. Baseball can deal with lesser greats getting in.
-
@quinnymcquinn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
We all know the main names that are in the Mitchell report, and those most suspected of PEDs. It still doesnt make sense to me that they have been blackballed while others have been inducted. Biggio, Bagwell, Pudge, Piazza. They have known and admitted amphetamine users in, as well as known and admitted cocaine users.
At this point its strictly being vindictive against certain players, while turning a blind eye towards others.
It’s simple. Bond was not well liked. Writers loved to dig up dirt and Bonds was abrasive right back. Bonds also broke some sacred record. That was already broken before by McGuire first. And then Bonds went on to hit the most home runs for a career.
Clemens is similar to Bonds in regards to being viewed as a [censored]. He won a record amount of Cy Youngs. He was considered the best pitcher of his era.
I think more than anything the MLB just doesn’t want these guys to represent them as all time greats. The other players mentioned piazza, pudge... all good players but they aren’t in conversations as the best ever. Baseball can deal with lesser greats getting in.
I understand your point, but why not McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, Manny, etc? You can say that they hold Bonds and Clemens higher as they are in the conversation for greatest ever. The other names arent. Again, why did the writers choose to put it some known cheaters while vilifying other non-greatest of all time players? Some voters have voted for all of them, but I'm strictly asking about those that voted for Bagwell, Pudge, etc, but not Sosa, Palmeiro, etc.
-
@jogger171717_psn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
So the article pretty much shows exactly what I’ve always said, that both Bonds and Clemens had HoF careers even without the steroids.
But that is a big what if; he did take them, so it really doesn’t matter. I do believe he would have got in. However, he chose to make a mistake that cost him.
-
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
We all know the main names that are in the Mitchell report, and those most suspected of PEDs. It still doesnt make sense to me that they have been blackballed while others have been inducted. Biggio, Bagwell, Pudge, Piazza. They have known and admitted amphetamine users in, as well as known and admitted cocaine users.
At this point its strictly being vindictive against certain players, while turning a blind eye towards others.
Cocaine and Speed doesn't cause your head to grow 3x larger among other body enhancements and they definitely dont turn back the clock on father time making you better at 39-40 than you were at 29-30. GTFOH
-
@ustoopid2_psn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
We all know the main names that are in the Mitchell report, and those most suspected of PEDs. It still doesnt make sense to me that they have been blackballed while others have been inducted. Biggio, Bagwell, Pudge, Piazza. They have known and admitted amphetamine users in, as well as known and admitted cocaine users.
At this point its strictly being vindictive against certain players, while turning a blind eye towards others.
Cocaine and Speed doesn't cause your head to grow 3x larger among other body enhancements and they definitely dont turn back the clock on father time making you better at 39-40 than you were at 29-30. GTFOH
But they are illegal by the rules. They certainly have benefits, which is why people use them. It's still cheating, or knowingly breaking the rules to gain an advantage. There is obviously a difference in advantage given between substances, but the fact remains that it's still cheating.
-
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@quinnymcquinn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
We all know the main names that are in the Mitchell report, and those most suspected of PEDs. It still doesnt make sense to me that they have been blackballed while others have been inducted. Biggio, Bagwell, Pudge, Piazza. They have known and admitted amphetamine users in, as well as known and admitted cocaine users.
At this point its strictly being vindictive against certain players, while turning a blind eye towards others.
It’s simple. Bond was not well liked. Writers loved to dig up dirt and Bonds was abrasive right back. Bonds also broke some sacred record. That was already broken before by McGuire first. And then Bonds went on to hit the most home runs for a career.
Clemens is similar to Bonds in regards to being viewed as a [censored]. He won a record amount of Cy Youngs. He was considered the best pitcher of his era.
I think more than anything the MLB just doesn’t want these guys to represent them as all time greats. The other players mentioned piazza, pudge... all good players but they aren’t in conversations as the best ever. Baseball can deal with lesser greats getting in.
You can say that they hold Bonds and Clemens higher as they are in the conversation for greatest ever. The other names arent.
Yes. And I agree with the rest of what you are saying and the questions you are asking. If it’s wrong for one player to juice it’s wrong for all. And either you let no juicers in or you let the greatest juicers in
-
@quinnymcquinn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@quinnymcquinn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
We all know the main names that are in the Mitchell report, and those most suspected of PEDs. It still doesnt make sense to me that they have been blackballed while others have been inducted. Biggio, Bagwell, Pudge, Piazza. They have known and admitted amphetamine users in, as well as known and admitted cocaine users.
At this point its strictly being vindictive against certain players, while turning a blind eye towards others.
It’s simple. Bond was not well liked. Writers loved to dig up dirt and Bonds was abrasive right back. Bonds also broke some sacred record. That was already broken before by McGuire first. And then Bonds went on to hit the most home runs for a career.
Clemens is similar to Bonds in regards to being viewed as a [censored]. He won a record amount of Cy Youngs. He was considered the best pitcher of his era.
I think more than anything the MLB just doesn’t want these guys to represent them as all time greats. The other players mentioned piazza, pudge... all good players but they aren’t in conversations as the best ever. Baseball can deal with lesser greats getting in.
You can say that they hold Bonds and Clemens higher as they are in the conversation for greatest ever. The other names arent.
Yes. And I agree with the rest of what you are saying and the questions you are asking. If it’s wrong for one player to juice it’s wrong for all. And either you let no juicers in or you let the greatest juicers in
Agreed.
-
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@ustoopid2_psn said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
@poksey_mlbts said in Very interesting Bonds and Clemens article:
We all know the main names that are in the Mitchell report, and those most suspected of PEDs. It still doesnt make sense to me that they have been blackballed while others have been inducted. Biggio, Bagwell, Pudge, Piazza. They have known and admitted amphetamine users in, as well as known and admitted cocaine users.
At this point its strictly being vindictive against certain players, while turning a blind eye towards others.
Cocaine and Speed doesn't cause your head to grow 3x larger among other body enhancements and they definitely dont turn back the clock on father time making you better at 39-40 than you were at 29-30. GTFOH
But they are illegal by the rules. They certainly have benefits, which is why people use them. It's still cheating, or knowingly breaking the rules to gain an advantage. There is obviously a difference in advantage given between substances, but the fact remains that it's still cheating.
They aren't using cocaine to play baseball better, they do cocaine to get high. People use steroids to play sports better hence why they are called Performance Enhancing Drugs. Cocaine isnt classified as a PED.
