We Demand Justice
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@abbyspapa said in We Demand Justice:
I thought this thread was for David Justice, now I'm just disappointed
Same here, i thought the OP was demanding a David Justice card. I would have been completely on board.
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@abbyspapa said in We Demand Justice:
I thought this thread was for David Justice, now I'm just disappointed
Oh. Sorry....
We demand David Justice, too!!!
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Upvote because you did a bunch of research. We need more of this around here.
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@maurice91932 said in We Demand Justice:
I’m a little shocked that people don’t think hitting 177 career triples warrants more than 47 speed.
There were a lot of ball parks that made triples much easier back then.
Lou Gehrig had 163 triples and 102 SB in just 17 years compared to Musials 22. And about 3000 less PA's. Gehrig at best would have 60-65 speed, but probably not even that.
For a guy who has a card in a year he had 7 SB's it sounds about right.
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@ChuckCLC said in We Demand Justice:
@maurice91932 said in We Demand Justice:
I’m a little shocked that people don’t think hitting 177 career triples warrants more than 47 speed.
There were a lot of ball parks that made triples much easier back then.
Lou Gehrig had 163 triples and 102 SB in just 17 years compared to Musials 22. And about 3000 less PA's. Gehrig at best would have 60-65 speed, but probably not even that.
For a guy who has a card in a year he had 7 SB's it sounds about right.
Explain Rogers Hornsby’s speed.
Also, Gehrig may have stole 102 bases, but he was caught 100 times. His speed was 64 last year.
So Gehrig, who retired before Stan’s professional career began, presumably played in even more triple-friendly parks. And his stolen base percentage is about the same.
Why is he so much faster than Musial?
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@maurice91932 said in We Demand Justice:
@ChuckCLC said in We Demand Justice:
@maurice91932 said in We Demand Justice:
I’m a little shocked that people don’t think hitting 177 career triples warrants more than 47 speed.
There were a lot of ball parks that made triples much easier back then.
Lou Gehrig had 163 triples and 102 SB in just 17 years compared to Musials 22. And about 3000 less PA's. Gehrig at best would have 60-65 speed, but probably not even that.
For a guy who has a card in a year he had 7 SB's it sounds about right.
Explain Rogers Hornsby’s speed.
He was fast lol. IDK, I know they have some sort of metric. They arent just going back and looking at hitting stats for speed. I am sure they had stop watches back then and people knew who were fast and who wasnt. Not saying they get this stuff 100% correct, I am sure they dont, but I am just saying I dont think they did a crime with Musials 1948 season.
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@ChuckCLC said in We Demand Justice:
@maurice91932 said in We Demand Justice:
I’m a little shocked that people don’t think hitting 177 career triples warrants more than 47 speed.
There were a lot of ball parks that made triples much easier back then.
Lou Gehrig had 163 triples and 102 SB in just 17 years compared to Musials 22. And about 3000 less PA's. Gehrig at best would have 60-65 speed, but probably not even that.
For a guy who has a card in a year he had 7 SB's it sounds about right.
So are we using stolen base numbers to determine speed or not? You argued it was some other metric—not the numbers—yet you’re justifying his low rating by citing his 7 stolen bags. Doesn’t seem fair.
I’m not trying to fight with you or anything. I’m enjoying our conversation.
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@maurice91932 said in We Demand Justice:
@ChuckCLC said in We Demand Justice:
@maurice91932 said in We Demand Justice:
I’m a little shocked that people don’t think hitting 177 career triples warrants more than 47 speed.
There were a lot of ball parks that made triples much easier back then.
Lou Gehrig had 163 triples and 102 SB in just 17 years compared to Musials 22. And about 3000 less PA's. Gehrig at best would have 60-65 speed, but probably not even that.
For a guy who has a card in a year he had 7 SB's it sounds about right.
So are we using stolen base numbers to determine speed or not? You argued it was some other metric—not the numbers—yet you’re justifying his low rating by citing his 7 stolen bags. Doesn’t seem fair.
I’m not trying to fight with you or anything. I’m enjoying our conversation.
Lol, na it is cool.
No I said I am sure they use some other metric. There has to be some record of players speed from home plate to first base type of thing. Even in LL and HS we did those times.
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@ChuckCLC said in We Demand Justice:
@maurice91932 said in We Demand Justice:
@ChuckCLC said in We Demand Justice:
@maurice91932 said in We Demand Justice:
I’m a little shocked that people don’t think hitting 177 career triples warrants more than 47 speed.
There were a lot of ball parks that made triples much easier back then.
Lou Gehrig had 163 triples and 102 SB in just 17 years compared to Musials 22. And about 3000 less PA's. Gehrig at best would have 60-65 speed, but probably not even that.
For a guy who has a card in a year he had 7 SB's it sounds about right.
So are we using stolen base numbers to determine speed or not? You argued it was some other metric—not the numbers—yet you’re justifying his low rating by citing his 7 stolen bags. Doesn’t seem fair.
I’m not trying to fight with you or anything. I’m enjoying our conversation.
Lol, na it is cool.
No I said I am sure they use some other metric. There has to be some record of players speed from home plate to first base type of thing. Even in LL and HS we did those times.
Fair enough.
Well Devs, feel free to jump in and let us know how you are determining a player’s speed.
Perhaps if it was a Sig card he’d be faster. But in 1948 Stan Musial was in his prime. He led the majors in triples that year. One of three years that he did so, and one in five in which he led the NL.
I want to know why he’s a 47 when his numbers are better or equal to players who are faster than him.
I mean, what did you use to determine that Ernie Banks and Joe Torre were both faster than Stan Musial?
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@maurice91932 said in We Demand Justice:
I want to know why he’s a 47 when his numbers are better or equal to players who are faster than him.
Wish I could give you a real answer.
But here is a comparison. Jeff Bagwell could swipe some bags back in his day, actually stole 30 or more a couple times. And was one of the best ever at running the bases, first to 3rd when others wouldnt, stretching singles into doubles ect. But I specifically remember him when asked about speed once saying he was only faster than 3 guys on the team. Dont remember who they were, but he was serious. If they had a foot race he admitted to being one of the slowest guys on th e team. But he was a very smart baserunner therefore could swipe bags and get the extra bases. That is why you arent gonna see Bagwell with any 80+ speed cards despite stealing a good amount of bases.
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@ChuckCLC said in We Demand Justice:
@maurice91932 said in We Demand Justice:
I want to know why he’s a 47 when his numbers are better or equal to players who are faster than him.
Wish I could give you a real answer.
But here is a comparison. Jeff Bagwell could swipe some bags back in his day, actually stole 30 or more a couple times. And was one of the best ever at running the bases, first to 3rd when others wouldnt, stretching singles into doubles ect. But I specifically remember him when asked about speed once saying he was only faster than 3 guys on the team. Dont remember who they were, but he was serious. If they had a foot race he admitted to being one of the slowest guys on th e team. But he was a very smart baserunner therefore could swipe bags and get the extra bases. That is why you arent gonna see Bagwell with any 80+ speed cards despite stealing a good amount of bases.
They gave Bagwell 61 speed. Not too bad. He stole over 200 bases in his career, though. Maybe he should be faster, too.
And if he really was slow, yet his smarts enabled him to push singles into doubles and doubles into triples, surely it was those same smarts that propelled Musial to 177 career three-baggers.
But thanks, Chuck. You’ve brought up some interesting points. I’m scratching my head even more now trying to figure out how they determine a player’s attributes, especially speed.
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@maurice91932 said in We Demand Justice:
And if he really was slow, yet his smarts enabled him to push singles into doubles and doubles into triples, surely it was those same smarts that propelled Musial to 177 career three-baggers.
I believe that is what the "stealing" and "baserunning" attributes are for though. I am not sure what they gave Musial for that.
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@ChuckCLC said in We Demand Justice:
@maurice91932 said in We Demand Justice:
And if he really was slow, yet his smarts enabled him to push singles into doubles and doubles into triples, surely it was those same smarts that propelled Musial to 177 career three-baggers.
I believe that is what the "stealing" and "baserunning" attributes are for though. I am not sure what they gave Musial for that.
Certainly the base stealing and aggression attributes help with getting a good jump when stealing a bag. But in this game, when it comes to hitting doubles and triples, speed and the arm of the fielder is all that matters.
IRL, I’m sure Stan took advantage of some subpar fielders whenever he could. For us users in this game, though, we usually only see canons out there. Unless the game is at Polo, Musial cannot hit a triple.
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I too thought this was a David Justice petition, which I endorse fully. I'd take a faster Stan too, so I agree with everything.
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Musial should be at least a 60 for speed. It really is baffling. Hell, Ruth is a 60 and he was not faster than Musial. Nor was Ted Williams. As Bill James said, Musial always left the batters’ box on a dead run. His speed in the game is insulting.
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@Quint75 said in We Demand Justice:
Musial should be at least a 60 for speed. It really is baffling. Hell, Ruth is a 60 and he was not faster than Musial. Nor was Ted Williams. As Bill James said, Musial always left the batters’ box on a dead run. His speed in the game is insulting.
Finally! Someone with the same passion for this as me! Forty-seven speed is a travesty!
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Yawn... this is what we’re complaining about now? A couple speed pts that won’t hardly matter?
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@Hikes83 said in We Demand Justice:
Yawn... this is what we’re complaining about now? A couple speed pts that won’t hardly matter?
I agree with the OP. It's pretty dumb that some of these players are that much faster than him. It would make him much more usable than he currently is.
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Good argument, bad title.
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@abbyspapa said in We Demand Justice:
I thought this thread was for David Justice, now I'm just disappointed
Yankee David justice not brave David justice
