Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19
-
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@abbyspapa said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@abbyspapa said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@nflman2033 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@nflman2033 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
That’s why wRC+ is the better stat. It tells us who is truly the better hitter. Base stats don’t take enough factors into account.
And no, I don’t believe in just using wRC+.
OPS and OPS+ both have a lot of value as well.Also, all star appearances tell nothing about who is the better hitter. Just like RBI tells nothing about a hitters ability.
Not disagreeing, but it tells me how the player was regarded amongst his peers. Lile I said Carter was considered one of the best players of his best position, but Huff never was.
Like I said, I watched them both play and would have never considered Huff better.
Again, that’s the beauty of the stats we have now. They show the true value of players much better than the “eye test”
That or sabermetric values are overrated. Not saying I believe that, but there are always alternative explanations for things.
In the case of Carter, he is probably worth less to his team because his mentality was to put the ball in play rather than to just get on base. Which would indicate high RBI vs low BB total. I will always contest that there is a place for that kind of mentality. I think all stats only tell part of the picture. The stats say everyone who can get on base probabilities are they are going to score runs. But life doesn't always work that way, I think you need a guy like Carter who is going to put the ball in play with a runner on base rather than try and draw a walk.
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@nflman2033 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
That’s why wRC+ is the better stat. It tells us who is truly the better hitter. Base stats don’t take enough factors into account.
And no, I don’t believe in just using wRC+.
OPS and OPS+ both have a lot of value as well.Also, all star appearances tell nothing about who is the better hitter. Just like RBI tells nothing about a hitters ability.
Not disagreeing, but it tells me how the player was regarded amongst his peers. Lile I said Carter was considered one of the best players of his best position, but Huff never was.
Like I said, I watched them both play and would have never considered Huff better.
Again, that’s the beauty of the stats we have now. They show the true value of players much better than the “eye test”
As long as you value more than any one whole stat. That seems to be where this argument gets hung up.
The only people who think sabermetrics are wrong or overrated are people that believe a player was better than he truly was. Often times, metrics prove players were not as good as people remember, and that makes people upset.
You said yourself that you’re old, so it’s only natural you wouldn’t really understand. Humans are stubborn and don’t like new ideas, even if they’re better.
So in making the case for objective metrics, you use subjective logic like "you're old so you don't understand" and "Humans are stubborn and don't like new ideas". Both of those statements rely on experience and anecdotal data and can not be objectively proven.
I mean, it’s not wrong though. It’s been shown many times throughout history that people prefer to stick with ideas they already know, and don’t like change even if it’s for the better. Older people tend to not understand new technology as well as younger people that have grown up with it. There’s nothing wrong about that.
Lol, but surely you see the duplicity in dismissing the "eye test" and deferring to objective stats while simultaneously claiming facts based off observations and anecdotes instead of objective stats.
The very same reasoning that leads to "it's been shown many times in history" also leads to "Carter was a better player because he was an AS x amount of times" or "I watched both Huff and Carter play and Carter was the better player". They all rely on general feelings instead of actual stats.
Man, you’re really reaching now. They are in no way related.
You're right, the subjects of the discussion may not be related, but the paths of reasoning are the same.
If you say "humans are stubborn" or "older people don't understand new things" because "it's been shown many times in the past" you are not presenting any objective facts to support this conclusion, only a subjective opinion based off subjective observations.
There is no objective stat to determine a person's "stubbornness factor" or "rate of resistance to new things".
If I say "Joe Carter was a better player than Huff, because I saw them both play", I am not presenting any objective facts to support that conclusion, only my personal subjective opinion based off my observations.
The line of reasoning in both cases are the same, therefore the conclusions of both arguments carry equal weight.
-
There seems to be an age gap in mindset here that can't be overcome
-
@SaveFarris said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@nflman2033 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
Which you can see by his 0 all star appearances vs Carter who was a 5 time all star.
Congratulations! You found the one stat (All-Star appearances) even more irrelevant than RBIs!
I am old I am never going to believe that there is any one stat that says a guy is a good or bad player. It's clear from our discussion that you believe that.
That's the thing about WAR. It takes ALL stats into account, adjusting for park effects and era. Even though you're getting a single number, that number is arrived at by looking at numerous stats and compiling them down.
Well no... not really. It takes on certain stats and arbitrarily says all others aren’t important like ALL clutch stats
-
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@SaveFarris said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@nflman2033 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
But sabermetrics weighs certain stats as being more important than others, how was that determined. Was that subjective?
Trial and error, determining which stats led to team success and which stats were negligible in that regard.
The first thing you do when you create an advanced stat like WAR or OPS+ or FIP is to run it against previous players and seasons to determine whether or not it truly illuminates the gap between good, bad, and average. A stat that says the top 3 players of all time were Babe, Willie and Barry is a whole lot better than a stat who says the best 3 of all time were Reuben Sierra, Bob Hamelin, and Ron Santo.
I swear we’re dealing with Mavericks backup account or something.
No just another person who understands stats. Nice to see objective thinking hasn’t completely gone away.
-
@SaveFarris said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@nflman2033 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
But sabermetrics weighs certain stats as being more important than others, how was that determined. Was that subjective?
Trial and error, determining which stats led to team success and which stats were negligible in that regard.
The first thing you do when you create an advanced stat like WAR or OPS+ or FIP is to run it against previous players and seasons to determine whether or not it truly illuminates the gap between good, bad, and average. A stat that says the top 3 players of all time were Babe, Willie and Barry is a whole lot better than a stat who says the best 3 of all time were Reuben Sierra, Bob Hamelin, and Ron Santo.
Ok that is a statistical error 101. All stats aren’t good for every situation. Plus a stat correlating doesn’t mean any level of causation
-
@yankblan said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
Who's to know in 5, 10 or 20 years if a new fWARLGBTQ+commaVBT23-DC stat won't be better.
If another stat comes along that's better than the ones that currently exist, I'd be happy to hear it's arguments.
Until then, use the best we've got now. Which is WAR, not "Back in my day, Joe Carter was the ****! Now get off my lawn!!!"
-
@SaveFarris said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@yankblan said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
Who's to know in 5, 10 or 20 years if a new fWARLGBTQ+commaVBT23-DC stat won't be better.
If another stat comes along that's better than the ones that currently exist, I'd be happy to hear it's arguments.
Until then, use the best we've got now. Which is WAR, not "Back in my day, Joe Carter was the ****! Now get off my lawn!!!"
Why don't you just say "ok boomer" while you are at it.
-
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@nflman2033 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
That’s why wRC+ is the better stat. It tells us who is truly the better hitter. Base stats don’t take enough factors into account.
And no, I don’t believe in just using wRC+.
OPS and OPS+ both have a lot of value as well.Also, all star appearances tell nothing about who is the better hitter. Just like RBI tells nothing about a hitters ability.
Not disagreeing, but it tells me how the player was regarded amongst his peers. Lile I said Carter was considered one of the best players of his best position, but Huff never was.
Like I said, I watched them both play and would have never considered Huff better.
Again, that’s the beauty of the stats we have now. They show the true value of players much better than the “eye test”
No they don’t all the time. There are more of them. Many of which are overused by people who don’t understand them and there limitations
-
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@abbyspapa said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@nflman2033 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@nflman2033 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
That’s why wRC+ is the better stat. It tells us who is truly the better hitter. Base stats don’t take enough factors into account.
And no, I don’t believe in just using wRC+.
OPS and OPS+ both have a lot of value as well.Also, all star appearances tell nothing about who is the better hitter. Just like RBI tells nothing about a hitters ability.
Not disagreeing, but it tells me how the player was regarded amongst his peers. Lile I said Carter was considered one of the best players of his best position, but Huff never was.
Like I said, I watched them both play and would have never considered Huff better.
Again, that’s the beauty of the stats we have now. They show the true value of players much better than the “eye test”
That or sabermetric values are overrated. Not saying I believe that, but there are always alternative explanations for things.
In the case of Carter, he is probably worth less to his team because his mentality was to put the ball in play rather than to just get on base. Which would indicate high RBI vs low BB total. I will always contest that there is a place for that kind of mentality. I think all stats only tell part of the picture. The stats say everyone who can get on base probabilities are they are going to score runs. But life doesn't always work that way, I think you need a guy like Carter who is going to put the ball in play with a runner on base rather than try and draw a walk.
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@nflman2033 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
That’s why wRC+ is the better stat. It tells us who is truly the better hitter. Base stats don’t take enough factors into account.
And no, I don’t believe in just using wRC+.
OPS and OPS+ both have a lot of value as well.Also, all star appearances tell nothing about who is the better hitter. Just like RBI tells nothing about a hitters ability.
Not disagreeing, but it tells me how the player was regarded amongst his peers. Lile I said Carter was considered one of the best players of his best position, but Huff never was.
Like I said, I watched them both play and would have never considered Huff better.
Again, that’s the beauty of the stats we have now. They show the true value of players much better than the “eye test”
As long as you value more than any one whole stat. That seems to be where this argument gets hung up.
The only people who think sabermetrics are wrong or overrated are people that believe a player was better than he truly was. Often times, metrics prove players were not as good as people remember, and that makes people upset.
You said yourself that you’re old, so it’s only natural you wouldn’t really understand. Humans are stubborn and don’t like new ideas, even if they’re better.
So in making the case for objective metrics, you use subjective logic like "you're old so you don't understand" and "Humans are stubborn and don't like new ideas". Both of those statements rely on experience and anecdotal data and can not be objectively proven.
I mean, it’s not wrong though. It’s been shown many times throughout history that people prefer to stick with ideas they already know, and don’t like change even if it’s for the better. Older people tend to not understand new technology as well as younger people that have grown up with it. There’s nothing wrong about that.
Ugh that is a just poor thinking it is literally the definition of prejudice. You are pre judging based on age when the truth is the differences within a population can be as drastic as the differences between populations. You need to stop trying to do any form of analysis. Your assumptions, much like sabermetrics are painfully flawed
-
@SaveFarris said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@yankblan said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
Who's to know in 5, 10 or 20 years if a new fWARLGBTQ+commaVBT23-DC stat won't be better.
If another stat comes along that's better than the ones that currently exist, I'd be happy to hear it's arguments.
Until then, use the best we've got now. Which is WAR, not "Back in my day, Joe Carter was the ****! Now get off my lawn!!!"
No....you use multiple imperfect stats to triangulate. You should NEVER use a singular stat no matter how good you think it is. This is the example of pseudoscience and not understanding stats that is prevalent amongst the sabermetrics community.
-
Oh my god SDS just give carter a signature series card so we can stop seeing this stupid post.
-
@pfcorporate said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
Oh my god SDS just give carter a signature series card so we can stop seeing this stupid post.
Or judge
-
2017 Hardware (AL ROY) Aaron Judge
Con r 84 (.298)
Con l 50 (.230)
Pow r 117 (9.8)
Pow l 88 (14.1)
Vis low
Disc 125 -
@ClearwaterDoug said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
2017 Hardware (AL ROY) Aaron Judge
Con r 84 (.298)
Con l 50 (.230)
Pow r 117 (9.8)
Pow l 88 (14.1)
Vis low
Disc 125How about all 125
-
Well this year you get an awesome gold version!
-
125 vision judge to make up for it! Huzzah!
-
@greenbuk75 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
125 vision judge to make up for it! Huzzah!
If he wasn’t injured tbh
-
@KierannosaurusK said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@greenbuk75 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
125 vision judge to make up for it! Huzzah!
If he wasn’t injured tbh
That's why he needs a sig series now until he can upgrade himself for his live card
-
@greenbuk75 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@KierannosaurusK said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
@greenbuk75 said in Aaron Judge did not get a single flashback in MLB 19:
125 vision judge to make up for it! Huzzah!
If he wasn’t injured tbh
That's why he needs a sig series now until he can upgrade himself for his live card
That makes sense. They might have to make defensive stats go to 125 for him!
-
A admin locked this topic on
