Rose and the Black Socks
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Jackson had a career ops of .960 according to baseball reference. In an era before the home run he had plenty of power. For perspective, a .960 would place him 7th in the league right now behind Corbin Carrol and ahead of Alex Bregman.
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@Dolenz_PSN True…But 1919 was the last year of the dead ball era. Even Ruth never hit more than 11 in a season before then.
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I understand that, I’m more lenient on the white Sox players because it was a different time and maybe the movies made me a little sympathetic towards them.
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@Jcassaro44_MLBTS I’d like to see them try and make Rose sympathetic in a movie
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Check out their career ops, doubles and triples. You are judging them through the wrong lenses of history.
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In my view, Joe Jackson is more deserving of going into the Hall of Fame than is Rose. You see, when Joe Jackson was playing that World Series, there were zero rules against gambling in professional baseball. Those rules were adopted after the Black Sox scandal.
Throwing games in that era was not routine, but also well known to happen. What was unprecedented was the idea of throwing a World Series. That was a stake to the heart of the game and scared the owners. So, they put an autocrat in power and he lowered the hammer. At the time, Joe Jackson played an excellent World Series by all measures. He and Buck Weaver both played well in that series. There was never any evidence he accepted money, and so what they were really guilty of was knowing the fix was in and not telling Charlie Comisky.
If they had, they would have been tarnished by their fellow players and Comisky likely wouldn't have done anything about it. So, those two were in a no-win position.
Rose played in an era where the rule against gambling was well known, and made a right of passage and warning every single spring training. Yet, Rose bet on baseball games anyway. So, Rose broke a well established rule. Weaver and Jackson did not.
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@trfatboy22_MLBTS said in Rose and the Black Socks:
Eh, agree to disagree. I think waiting for someone to die and then deciding to forgive them is a pretty bad way to go about it. I also think Pete Rose the player didn't do anything wrong and should have been in the hall forever ago. I understand that will be a minority opinion but it is what it is.
It's good for baseball to have your best (and most popular) players be recognized.
He broke a cardinal rule actually in writing. If that's "doing nothing wrong" in your book, then how many other offenses and crimes are "OK in your book?"
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I had to chuckle at this image I saw...
These baseball fans don't know that Bonds was never banned and was on the Hall of Fame ballot for 10 years.
That's on the Baseball Writers of America who vote on the Hall nominees and not on MLB.
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@PriorFir4383355_XBL The PLAYER the player did nothing wrong and nothing he did influenced his numbers. Those 4000+ hits are all legit.
What he did as a manager is a different story. My point is that if we are going to forgive it now and let him in the hall (which will probably happen) then there was no reason not to do it when he was alive. It should have been all or nothing in my eyes.
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@trfatboy22_MLBTS said in Rose and the Black Socks:
@PriorFir4383355_XBL The PLAYER the player did nothing wrong and nothing he did influenced his numbers. Those 4000+ hits are all legit.
What he did as a manager is a different story. My point is that if we are going to forgive it now and let him in the hall (which will probably happen) then there was no reason not to do it when he was alive. It should have been all or nothing in my eyes.
No, all or nothing harbors a viewpoint alien to the real world. Nuance is the most common virtue -- the ability to see the situation and dial in the proper response, vice use a sledgehammer devoid of consideration. Rose broke a cardinal rule, repeatedly lied about it when confronted with enough evidence to get a conviction in a court of law, and broke Bart Giamatti's heart and caused him extreme stress that led to his death.
Rose even violated the confidence of his former Cincinnati Reds players who gave him the roadmap to earn reinstatement having gone to bat for him with the new commissioner and Rose deceived even them. Truth is, for all of Rose's positives as a player, in life he was an arrogant and self-entitled [censored]. He earned a lifetime ban and that's exactly what he got.
Like I wrote before, my sympathy is for players like Buck Weaver and Joe Jackson, who did get a full on sledgehammer from a former judge renown for handing down harsh sentences on dubious convictions, resulting in him getting reversed on appeal quite often. Landis should have hammered the players like Swede Reisberg who took the money, hatched the scheme, and then clearly tanked their play on the field. Weaver never agreed to take money, within the clubhouse condemned the players throwing the series, and played very well.
Some believe Jackson took money, but no one believes he tanked his play. Many deny he took money and was like Weaver in only being aware of the fix.
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@PriorFir4383355_XBL No he earned a permanent ban. Which has now been lifted after death. And realistically not that long after he died. Which makes it seem like this was something that was in the works since before he died. And that is what I don't like about it.
There's also no real reason to lift the ban if they aren't also expecting him to be voted into the hall. So in my opinion the MLB sat around and waited for a man to die with every intention of voting him into the hall after he died. And that is what doesn't sit right with me.
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@trfatboy22_MLBTS said in Rose and the Black Socks:
@PriorFir4383355_XBL No he earned a permanent ban. Which has now been lifted after death. And realistically not that long after he died. Which makes it seem like this was something that was in the works since before he died. And that is what I don't like about it.
Yes, Rose was given a path back to reinstatement.
And he blew it with the "That was 55 years ago, babe" line -
Apropos of nothing... Did anyone here ever play the Pete Rose baseball game on the computer? Showing my age here with that one.
Outside of Baseball Stars it is probably my favorite baseball video game ever. -
Definitely need a Pete Rose amd Shoeless Joe Jackson player program
