Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever"
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War lost me as a stat that mattered when Miggy won the triple crown and people were arguing Trout should be the mvp because he had a higher War.
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@chuckclc_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lets not pretend WAR is the end all be all of evaluating a player. How well did Babe pitch in those seasons? Babe definitely has the most impressive hitting numbers of all time, but when you add in Pitching and Speed it does become a legit argument between the 2.
Plus of course the obvious 100 hundred year difference in athletic era. Apples and Oranges.
WAR is the best way to judge the value of a player overall to his team and the best way of comparing him to his peers. Let’s talk pitching. Ruth had a nearly 9 WAR pitching season in 1916. Ohtani isn’t coming anywhere near that. It was 6.5 in 1917. Again, he’s not coming anywhere that. Can we just appreciate Ohtani for what he is and stop with the over the top exaggerations about his play. He’s been good. He’s been very valuable. It’s a great story. He’s probably going to win MVP. As far as all time greatest seasons, at this point he’s not in the same ballpark.
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@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@chuckclc_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lets not pretend WAR is the end all be all of evaluating a player. How well did Babe pitch in those seasons? Babe definitely has the most impressive hitting numbers of all time, but when you add in Pitching and Speed it does become a legit argument between the 2.
Plus of course the obvious 100 hundred year difference in athletic era. Apples and Oranges.
WAR is the best way to judge the value of a player overall to his team and the best way of comparing him to his peers. Let’s talk pitching. Ruth had a nearly 9 WAR pitching season in 1916. Ohtani isn’t coming anywhere near that. It was 6.5 in 1917. Again, he’s not coming anywhere that. Can we just appreciate Ohtani for what he is and stop with the over the top exaggerations about his play. He’s been good. He’s been very valuable. It’s a great story. He’s probably going to win MVP. As far as all time greatest seasons, at this point he’s not in the same ballpark.
Name someone that has pitched as well as him and hit this well in a single season. That is the argument. Hasnt happened. All around he probably is having the best season ever. Not the best hitter, not the best pitcher, not the best baserunner, but all together there is an argument for the people saying it.
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Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
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@chuckclc_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@chuckclc_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lets not pretend WAR is the end all be all of evaluating a player. How well did Babe pitch in those seasons? Babe definitely has the most impressive hitting numbers of all time, but when you add in Pitching and Speed it does become a legit argument between the 2.
Plus of course the obvious 100 hundred year difference in athletic era. Apples and Oranges.
WAR is the best way to judge the value of a player overall to his team and the best way of comparing him to his peers. Let’s talk pitching. Ruth had a nearly 9 WAR pitching season in 1916. Ohtani isn’t coming anywhere near that. It was 6.5 in 1917. Again, he’s not coming anywhere that. Can we just appreciate Ohtani for what he is and stop with the over the top exaggerations about his play. He’s been good. He’s been very valuable. It’s a great story. He’s probably going to win MVP. As far as all time greatest seasons, at this point he’s not in the same ballpark.
Name someone that has pitched as well as him and hit this well in a single season. That is the argument. Hasnt happened. All around he probably is having the best season ever. Not the best hitter, not the best pitcher, not the best baserunner, but all together there is an argument for the people saying it.
You’re asking for a comparison to players that don’t exist. Just because he’s an anomaly doesn’t mean he’s having the best season ever. That’s ridiculous hyperbole. That’s the argument. Appreciate what he’s doing. Don’t make it something it’s not.
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@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
And yet we have stats that do just that.
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@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
And yet we have stats that do just that.
And we will always keeps track of stats. However a logical person would realize the 100 years that seperate the 2 athletes and realize that the game, like everything in life, has evolved.
If you want to go with the Argument "we have stats" then tell me, how long until someone breaks cy youngs 511 wins?
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Articles are being posted every day about Ohtani having the "Greatest Season Ever". Ohtani is about to hit the impressive 9 WAR in a season club, this is an elite club that certainly gives credit to this argument, right.
Ohtani's season is on track to be 130th all-time in WAR. For my non-sabermetrics guys, that basically means it isn't the greatest season ever, it isn't even close.
But who has the greatest season ever? Babe Ruth in 1923, the man who Ohtani is often compared to, with a 14.2 WAR season, more WAR than Ohtani has amassed in his MLB career.
How about the 2nd greatest season ever? That goes to a man by the name of Babe Ruth, who in 1921 posted a 12.9 WAR season.
How about the 3rd greatest season ever? That title goes to little-known former superstar by the name of George, George Herman, or as you may know him... Babe Ruth, with 12.6 WAR in 1927.
As a matter of fact, 5 of the 10 greatest seasons ever, and 6 of the top 11, belong to Babe Ruth.
So Shohei Ohtani, "The Next Babe Ruth" is on pace to have the 130th best season ever, whereas Ruth has half of the top 10 best seasons ever, including the top 3.
Ruth had 16 years where he played at least 100 games. This Ohtani season people are calling maybe the best in MLB history, would only be Ruth's 11th best season, and a down year for him.
Let's end with some stats simpler:
Ohtani 2021 OPS: .986
Ruth career OPS: 1.164
Ruth 1919-1924 OPS: 1.262Ohtani 2021 ERA: 3.31
Babe Ruth career ERA: 2.28Let's stop comparing a .260 hitter to a dude who hit over .370 for half a dozen seasons, to a dude who hit more home runs than the entire American League in seasons, and to a dude who beats him in almost any stat. And before the argument that Ruth played in an easier time: (1) Ruth didn't chose his era and if it was so much easier, why was he vastly better than ever other player?
Another bad take by Kieran
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@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
And yet we have stats that do just that.
And we will always keeps track of stats. However a logical person would realize the 100 years that seperate the 2 athletes and realize that the game, like everything in life, has evolved.
If you want to go with the Argument "we have stats" then tell me, how long until someone breaks cy youngs 511 wins?
I’m not even sure what you’re trying to argue here. We have developed stats that measure the value of players between their contemporaries and players of different eras. We have them so we don’t have to rely solely on counting stats like wins. No one is going to break the wins records obviously. But that is based, more so, on reasons outside of the current players control.
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Baseball desperately needs Ohtani.
Trout is still the best, but he's invisible in terms of press and promotion.
I love the new batch of kids, and baseball is going to be all about this generation of bat tossing, trash talking, fun loving, emotion showing players.
Ohtani is the poster boy, along Tatis Jr., Vlad Jr., and the rest of the bunch.
Breath of fresh air, and fun to see the old, boring traditions getting replaced. -
@chuckclc_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lets not pretend WAR is the end all be all of evaluating a player. How well did Babe pitch in those seasons? Babe definitely has the most impressive hitting numbers of all time, but when you add in Pitching and Speed it does become a legit argument between the 2.
Plus of course the obvious 100 hundred year difference in athletic era. Apples and Oranges.
Between hitting, pitching and speed.
Babe was miles better hitting, miles better pitching, and slightly worse if that in speed. -
Babe Ruth never hit and pitched full time in the same season. Could maybe make an argument for 1919. Also, the game evolves. Babe didn’t play against the shift, analytical tendencies, and let alone had players from majority one race playing against him.
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@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@chuckclc_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lets not pretend WAR is the end all be all of evaluating a player. How well did Babe pitch in those seasons? Babe definitely has the most impressive hitting numbers of all time, but when you add in Pitching and Speed it does become a legit argument between the 2.
Plus of course the obvious 100 hundred year difference in athletic era. Apples and Oranges.
WAR is the best way to judge the value of a player overall to his team and the best way of comparing him to his peers. Let’s talk pitching. Ruth had a nearly 9 WAR pitching season in 1916. Ohtani isn’t coming anywhere near that. It was 6.5 in 1917. Again, he’s not coming anywhere that. Can we just appreciate Ohtani for what he is and stop with the over the top exaggerations about his play. He’s been good. He’s been very valuable. It’s a great story. He’s probably going to win MVP. As far as all time greatest seasons, at this point he’s not in the same ballpark.
Exactly
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@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
Ruth didn’t choose when he was born + if it was so easy back then why was Ruth still so much better than his peers
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@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
Ruth didn’t choose era he got to play in + if it was so much easier back then why was Ruth still so much more dominant that his peers. This is a bad argument no matter what sport it is and it’s usually used to discredit any non recent players
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@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
And yet we have stats that do just that.
And we will always keeps track of stats. However a logical person would realize the 100 years that seperate the 2 athletes and realize that the game, like everything in life, has evolved.
If you want to go with the Argument "we have stats" then tell me, how long until someone breaks cy youngs 511 wins?
I’m not even sure what you’re trying to argue here. We have developed stats that measure the value of players between their contemporaries and players of different eras. We have them so we don’t have to rely solely on counting stats like wins. No one is going to break the wins records obviously. But that is based, more so, on reasons outside of the current players control.
Like literally we have stats made to adjust for this, and the bottom line is it isn’t even close. Why can’t we appreciate that what Ohtani is doing is cool while also acknowledging it’s not the greatest season ever and likely not top 100
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@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
And yet we have stats that do just that.
Think of how sick Ruth, Cobb, and the early greats would have been if they knew about the benefits of good nutrition, weight training, had video access to every pitcher and all of their at bats, and didn't have to get jobs in the off season?
Also, the health concerns of alcohol and tobacco use, and poor diet.
Remember, weight training was taboo in all sports expect football until the late 80's.
I think those guys would be just fine playing today. -
@misfits_138_1_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
And yet we have stats that do just that.
Think of how sick Ruth, Cobb, and the early greats would have been if they knew about the benefits of good nutrition, weight training, had video access to every pitcher and all of their at bats, and didn't have to get jobs in the off season?
Also, the health concerns of alcohol and tobacco use, and poor diet.
Remember, weight training was taboo in all sports expect football until the late 80's.
I think those guys would be just fine playing today.The thing is a lot of principals of modern swing mechanics come from Ruth too, his stance looked weird but a lot of the weight shifting and techniques along with it were decades ahead of its time
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@misfits_138_1_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
And yet we have stats that do just that.
Think of how sick Ruth, Cobb, and the early greats would have been if they knew about the benefits of good nutrition, weight training, had video access to every pitcher and all of their at bats, and didn't have to get jobs in the off season?
Also, the health concerns of alcohol and tobacco use, and poor diet.
Remember, weight training was taboo in all sports expect football until the late 80's.
I think those guys would be just fine playing today.The thing is a lot of principals of modern swing mechanics come from Ruth too, his stance looked weird but a lot of the weight shifting and techniques along with it were decades ahead of its time
This.
And Ted Williams literally wrote the book on the modern swing, still considered the ultimate book on hitting.
And I agree, Ruth revolutionized the uppercut swing, using your hips, and hand speed. -
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
Ruth didn’t choose when he was born + if it was so easy back then why was Ruth still so much better than his peers
Guys like Feller and Koufax, Gibson, and Matthewson WERE throwing 95+ right off the farm.
Different game though.
Those guys used wicked movement and control.
Today, pitchers are such great athletes that they 100+ with movement.
Games evolve.
