Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room
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@savefarris_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
2006 Jeter: .343/.417/.483
2017 Altuve: .346/.410/.5472006 Jeter OPS+: 132
2017 Altuve OPS+: 1602006 Jeter TB: 301
2017 Altuve TB: 3232006 Jeter WAR: 5.6
2017 Altuve WAR: 7.72006 Jeter dWAR: -0.7 (Worse than replacement-level defense)
2017 Altuve dWAR: 0.42006 Jeter $Million/WAR: $3.6
2017 Altuve $Million/WAR: $0.584Altuve's 2017 isn't "pretty identical". The words you're looking for are "vastly superior".
Jeter won the gold glove in 2006 lol, You do not win MVP for defense. Overall stats they are pretty identical. Go ahead an pick and chose the ones you want.
Take in to consideration Altuve was on a team that cheated.
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@dbarmonstar_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
Jeter won the gold glove in 2006 lol,
Says more about the BBWAA than it does about Jeter.
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@savefarris_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
Jeter won the gold glove in 2006 lol,
Says more about the BBWAA than it does about Jeter.
Yes I agree the BBWAA and how they vote.
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MVP winners with stats
https://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/mvp.shtml -
@asocial_grace said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
Jeter was a great hitter, but for the entirety of his career, by every advanced fielding metric, he was a below average fielder. Not even average — he was actually a liability with his glove. Garciaparra was better. J.J. Hardy was much better. Jeter hit his way to the Hall Of Fame, but it had zero to do with his defense.
I was thinking the same. Kind of weird great defensive plays are associated with Jeter. I know he made some good plays going to his left, but Ozzie or Omar would not have had to make a jumping fall away throw because they already would have been there and made it look routine. I know he is an OF, but It is like Jim Edmonds, he had tons of highlight driving catches but that was because he played so shallow and had terrible jumps on balls hit to him. Watch the entire play from when the ball is hit and some guys take routine plays and make them look hard.
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@dbarmonstar_PSN
I understand your argument that players who didn't win MVP can still be deserving and it is true however Jeter was never in his career the best player in the league. Solid contact numbers, not much power and average to below average defense. Had some great seasons but never deserved an MVP win. -
@kovz88_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@dbarmonstar_PSN
I understand your argument that players who didn't win MVP can still be deserving and it is true however Jeter was never in his career the best player in the league. Solid contact numbers, not much power and average to below average defense. Had some great seasons but never deserved an MVP win.I do agree with that about Jeter, if that is the case than Like I stated above, Altuve does not deserve his, neither does McCutchen, Posey, or Pedroia.
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Fun fact of the day
Jeter top 100 in career WAR
Top 10 in WAR just shortstops -
@dbarmonstar_PSN
The difference is all of those guys played great defense in their MVP years on top of their offense. I'm not saying you can't win MVP without being a power hitter, im saying Jeter was never good enough to win it. He was never the best player in his league. Great consistent players, but not the godlike superstar everyone talks him up to be. -
@kovz88_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@dbarmonstar_PSN
The difference is all of those guys played great defense in their MVP years on top of their offense. I'm not saying you can't win MVP without being a power hitter, im saying Jeter was never good enough to win it. He was never the best player in his league. Great consistent players, but not the godlike superstar everyone talks him up to be.You do not win MVP playing great defense. You are missing the whole point, SS is The 2nd hardest position to play and C is the hardest.
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@dbarmonstar_PSN
I guess I am because I have no idea what point you're trying to make.
If your point is he deserved it because similar numbers to the other guys, he didn't. The other guys actually played defense and context also matters with the numbers because of how other players in the league play. -
@kovz88_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@dbarmonstar_PSN
I guess I am because I have no idea what point you're trying to make.
If your point is he deserved it because similar numbers to the other guys, he didn't. The other guys actually played defense and context also matters with the numbers because of how other players in the league play.Yeah you are missing the point, them comments of the other guy is what started this. The comparison to the other players is the fact the the number are close, defensive plays a small part in it. In 2006 Jeter finished 2nd in the voting, and he won a gold glove that year, The way I understood what the guy was saying in multiple post is that a guy can not win the MVP unless they are hitting 30 plus HR, 120 plus RBI, SLG, OPS and all of that. Take that for what it is worth. To make that debate I researched guys with numbers close to what Jeter numbers were in 2006 that have won the MVP with out being that type of hitter. Did Jeter deserve the MVP in 06 no not at all if he would have won it would have been deserving imo. If Ortiz or Dye or Santana would have won they all would have been deserving as well. You had to go to defense is to say why those players deserve the MVP they got, but defense is not why they won the MVP talking about Altuve 2017 cheated, McCutchen, Posey so on and so forth, You can make a case that Trout did not deserve the MVP in 2016.To take it further he said Jeter did not deserve because he hit singles, Ichiro won an MVP hitting nothing but singles with 69 RBI and 8 HR. I do not have a problem with those guys winning MVP, to make the arguement that Jeter did not deserve because he did not have power and only hit singles then that same person should think that about all these players that have won MVP that were the type of player Jeter was. The fact that Jeter played the second hardest pos in baseball. Understand that MVP are not just for the guy who slams a ton of HR and has 120 RBI, and OPS. The 2nd point is other player who do not win can still be deserving if they were not they would get 0 votes.
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@dbarmonstar_PSN
Yah I don't agree with everything the other guy said either but I still believe Jeter never deserved an MVP. Him winning the gold glove that year just shows the Yankee bias considering he had a negative defensive WAR. -
@kovz88_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@dbarmonstar_PSN
Yah I don't agree with everything the other guy said either but I still believe Jeter never deserved an MVP. Him winning the gold glove that year just shows the Yankee bias considering he had a negative defensive WAR.Yes I agree, there is an article that they got some writers or voters to re-vote the 2006 MVP and Jeter came out as the winner. I think Santana should have won the CY young and MVP that year. Saying someone has 0 MVP so they do not deserve to be MVP is crazy to me. A lot of the stuff the other guys said did not make any since to me.
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@kovz88_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@dbarmonstar_PSN
Yah I don't agree with everything the other guy said either but I still believe Jeter never deserved an MVP. Him winning the gold glove that year just shows the Yankee bias considering he had a negative defensive WAR.WAR was not used in voting or as a stat from what I research until 2008 with Fangraph and 2010 with Baseball Reference. That just make you think especially with defensive how many players won Gold Gloves that probably should not have. Some hitters might have won MVP that they did.
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@dbarmonstar_PSN
Agreed that there are plenty of players with no MVPs or CY Youngs that deserved to have won at least 1. My opinion is that Jeter is not one of those players and I feel like the numbers support that but he never won so whether he deserved to or not at this point really boils down to a matter of opinion. -
@kovz88_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@dbarmonstar_PSN
Agreed that there are plenty of players with no MVPs or CY Youngs that deserved to have won at least 1. My opinion is that Jeter is not one of those players and I feel like the numbers support that but he never won so whether he deserved to or not at this point really boils down to a matter of opinion.Totally agree
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@xBASHxDaddy23
I don’t think he won an AL MVP, he won a World Series MVP and a postseason MVP if I remember right -
Great fielders do not make the Hall of Fame. Great hitters do. Unless they are both of course.
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@kovz88_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
It would have good contact, bad power and average to below average defense unless they seriously overrated him.
signature jeter would mirror his years hed hit 25 homers and 40 doubles so think jackie power
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