Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room
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@notoriousheb_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@notoriousheb_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@notoriousheb_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@notoriousheb_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@notoriousheb_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@notoriousheb_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@notoriousheb_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@notoriousheb_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@gmoney-1234_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
We all know the biggest issue this game faces is the fact all 2nd basemen and shortstops have Derek Jeter power and accuracy behind their arms when moving the opposite direction from and throwing to 1st base lol
Thousands upon thousands of hits stolen on what should be a rare play. And speaking of Jeter, when we gonna get an All-Star or Prime or MVP Jeter card??
Derek Jeter never won an MVP because he was never good enough to. So you won't ever see an MVP card of him.
He did finish top 3 three times in his career.
Funny way of saying he never won. The MVP card can't exist because he was never MVP.
Again I was just making a statement in response to saying he was never good enough. Not about him getting a card in a Video game. He did finish 2nd one of those years. To say he was never good enough is false statement.
It's not false, he wasn't good enough to win MVP, he didn't win it... Even at his best with all of NY media and hype around him the best he could do is first loser.
Fact: he wasn't good enough to win. If he was, he would have.
That is an Ignorant statement. Plenty of HOF and great players never won the MVP but that does not mean they were not good enough, it means other players were a little bit better That season and how the Voters saw it. The person who wins does is not always the one who should have won.
Jeter played on a team that was immensely favored in any sort of media or voting type accomplishment. His entire career he was over hyped and held on a pedestal. His team had an owner spending ungodly amount on payroll far more than any team to be competitive. He literally had every single factor wholely and completely to his favor... And yet still could never put together a year deserving of MVP because he wasn't good enough. Slapping singles with a 130 ISO isn't going to get it done kiddo.
Jeter was flat out not good enough to be an MVP. He was not that caliber player. He is the Craig Biggio in pinstripes.
He was never MVP, and never deserved to be MVP... Not good enough at his best to be the most valuable player. Even with everything in his favor.
You will never get that card
I am not talking about that stupid card that is not what this is about. It is about facts, that fact is he is a HOF player, you can not deny what he did in the post season and what he did over his career, You sound like a jealous fan who hates on a team that does what it needs to do to win, Sports is about winning championship and getting the best players to do that. the Yankees did not win anything from 79 to 95. It is his fault that he played for a Owner who wanted to win? I wonder why the media loved him and hated Bonds. He did put together a year that was good enough. He just did not win. He had over 200 hits and batting 343, he scored 118 times, who plays hard every day, stays healthly, and does not get into trouble. Comes up clutch in the playoffs. Then the 240 hitter with 35 HR and k's over 200 times. Have a guy like Bonds and Arod two of the best hitters in the game choke in the playoffs.
I do think Jeter is an overrated defensive shortstop. I am not a yankee fan. or a Jeter fan.
I mean the MVP card is literally what this is about and what I commented on. The original post says he wants his MVP card. He never won MVP, he was never good enough to win MVP, hence why he never did. You can never get a Jeter MVP because he never was, end of story.
You could have left the part out that he was never good enough, that is the part I am talking about. That statement is a false statement.
It's not false, it's true. If he was good enough he would have, he was in an environment where his teams success makes him a candidate every year and the media favoritism towards his team gives him a boost as well. He could not have been in a better environment, his environment actually boosted his chances. He never put together a season deserving of it, he was never the best player, he was always outplayed.
That's why he has 0 MVP awards.
You do not know how MVP's work, Many players had season where they deserved it and did not win. Every player in every sport who never who an MVP was not good enough to do so because the voters did not vote for them. You know nothing about sports and voters when it comes to these rewards. I see you just hate the yankees. You do not seem to know how to do research and post any facts to back up your statement. the 2006 team on paper really was not that great. Had a ton of Vet who knew how to win. You should try researching info stop with your opinion. Stop being jealous of teams that build winning culture aka environments.
I know exactly how MVPs work and why Jeter doesn't have one. He literally was never good enough. Long career, hall of famer, sure, but he was never anywhere close to best player in the league or most valuable, let alone he was never even the best SS in the AL.
He spent his career slapping singles (130 ISO) in one of the most hitter friendly parks on the most stacked teams of the steroid era.
You're literally arguing about a guy that never one MVP who couldn't have been in a better environment his entire career.
0 MVPs, sorry to break your heart kiddo.
First off I am not no kiddo you moron, second you have no clue. No point in continuing this conversation with someone who does not know baseball. You really should do your research. The 2006 team was not stacked. You should really go look at stuff before you just assume things. Why do you have a problem with how winning teams are built. Most teams that win are stacked with good players. Is'nt the point to build the best possible team to win. You just refuse to actually research stuff and just give your bias opinion. I already said he was an overrated Defensively SS. You should get your head out of you A$$
Lmao dude your wild assumptions are hilarious. You honestly have no idea how big of a baseball head you're talking to and I watched Jeters whole career.
The fact you think I have a problem with winning teams just showed an insane lack of reading comprehension. At what point did I ever day that as a negative? It's a monster positive to his benefit. How many times does it need to be said that Jeter had all possible situational variances wholely and completely on his favor throughout his career and still never produced MVP type numbers. Slapping singles with a 130 ISO during the steroid era doesn't get it done, he literally never put up MVP numbers. He has all star seasons sure, but never MVP numbers, never. And that was with the entire benefit of every single variable in his favor - band box home park, stacked teams with unlimited payroll, media favoritism, winning teams that automatically put anyone in MVP talk year in and year out, literally everything you can ask for in his favor -- and yet he never put a season together worthy of MVP because he just flat out wasnt that type of player... Steady but vastly overrated fielder, limited power, singles hitter that set the table efficiently, clutch, long career -- but he was an all star caliber player with a very lengthy career on a stacked and historic franchise that recieved insane media attention, not an MVP caliber player...
You keep mentioning 2006... Ummm 14 HR and 97 RBI? Hey he scored 118 runs because ARod is crushing 35 bombs with 121 RBI and Gianni is smacking 37 bombs with 113 RBI... He had a 900 OPS and was still 4th on his team behind ARod, Gianni, and Abreu who lit it up after they traded for him... Meanwhile you got Morneau crushing 34 bombs and 130 RBI out in Minny, hell David Ortiz only came in 3rd because of DH stigma the dude ripped 54 bombs, 137 RBI, 115 R, with a 1.049 OPS. .. freaking Jermaine Dye hit 315/1.006 with 44 bombs, 120 RBI, 103 R... It wasn't an MVP season, not at all, even with the media and every possible variance fully in his favor. He ranked 18th in the league in in wRC+ that year with a 138 and that's the best example you can put up? lol just proves the point.
He's not MVP caliber, he was put on a pedestal and had every single factor fully in favor, you couldn't ask for anything else to go more in his way, and he still didn't produce at MVP level because that's not what he is. Long career, steady AS caliber player with clutch playoff performances... But not an MVP type guy... Which is exactly why he rightfully has ZEROOOOOO.
Go look at Atluve numbers in 2017 was he deserving of the MVP by your standards. No way he should have won the MVP. Judge should have won. Altuve Number are pretty identical to Jeter in 2006. Anyone with those numbers by your standards are not deserving of the MVP.
Go look at McCutchen MVP season not deserving number either, By your standards Goldschmidt should have won. Jeter number in 2006 were better than McCutchens.
I get that Jeter in 2006 the number were deserving if he would have won. Other players were deserving as well that has been my point.
Posey over Braun in 2012 you should disagree with that one as well
Was Kemp deserving in 2011 over Braun, Yes Kemp should have won that MVP.
Pedroia in 2008 was not deserving by your standards but he won.
The list goes on.
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2006 Jeter: .343/.417/.483
2017 Altuve: .346/.410/.5472006 Jeter OPS+: 132
2017 Altuve OPS+: 1602006 Jeter TB: 301
2017 Altuve TB: 3232006 Jeter WAR: 5.6
2017 Altuve WAR: 7.72006 Jeter dWAR: -0.7 (Worse than replacement-level defense)
2017 Altuve dWAR: 0.42006 Jeter $Million/WAR: $3.6
2017 Altuve $Million/WAR: $0.584Altuve's 2017 isn't "pretty identical". The words you're looking for are "vastly superior".
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@savefarris_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
2006 Jeter: .343/.417/.483
2017 Altuve: .346/.410/.5472006 Jeter OPS+: 132
2017 Altuve OPS+: 1602006 Jeter TB: 301
2017 Altuve TB: 3232006 Jeter WAR: 5.6
2017 Altuve WAR: 7.72006 Jeter dWAR: -0.7 (Worse than replacement-level defense)
2017 Altuve dWAR: 0.42006 Jeter $Million/WAR: $3.6
2017 Altuve $Million/WAR: $0.584Altuve's 2017 isn't "pretty identical". The words you're looking for are "vastly superior".
Jeter won the gold glove in 2006 lol, You do not win MVP for defense. Overall stats they are pretty identical. Go ahead an pick and chose the ones you want.
Take in to consideration Altuve was on a team that cheated.
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@dbarmonstar_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
Jeter won the gold glove in 2006 lol,
Says more about the BBWAA than it does about Jeter.
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@savefarris_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
Jeter won the gold glove in 2006 lol,
Says more about the BBWAA than it does about Jeter.
Yes I agree the BBWAA and how they vote.
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MVP winners with stats
https://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/mvp.shtml -
@asocial_grace said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
Jeter was a great hitter, but for the entirety of his career, by every advanced fielding metric, he was a below average fielder. Not even average — he was actually a liability with his glove. Garciaparra was better. J.J. Hardy was much better. Jeter hit his way to the Hall Of Fame, but it had zero to do with his defense.
I was thinking the same. Kind of weird great defensive plays are associated with Jeter. I know he made some good plays going to his left, but Ozzie or Omar would not have had to make a jumping fall away throw because they already would have been there and made it look routine. I know he is an OF, but It is like Jim Edmonds, he had tons of highlight driving catches but that was because he played so shallow and had terrible jumps on balls hit to him. Watch the entire play from when the ball is hit and some guys take routine plays and make them look hard.
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@dbarmonstar_PSN
I understand your argument that players who didn't win MVP can still be deserving and it is true however Jeter was never in his career the best player in the league. Solid contact numbers, not much power and average to below average defense. Had some great seasons but never deserved an MVP win. -
@kovz88_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@dbarmonstar_PSN
I understand your argument that players who didn't win MVP can still be deserving and it is true however Jeter was never in his career the best player in the league. Solid contact numbers, not much power and average to below average defense. Had some great seasons but never deserved an MVP win.I do agree with that about Jeter, if that is the case than Like I stated above, Altuve does not deserve his, neither does McCutchen, Posey, or Pedroia.
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Fun fact of the day
Jeter top 100 in career WAR
Top 10 in WAR just shortstops -
@dbarmonstar_PSN
The difference is all of those guys played great defense in their MVP years on top of their offense. I'm not saying you can't win MVP without being a power hitter, im saying Jeter was never good enough to win it. He was never the best player in his league. Great consistent players, but not the godlike superstar everyone talks him up to be. -
@kovz88_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@dbarmonstar_PSN
The difference is all of those guys played great defense in their MVP years on top of their offense. I'm not saying you can't win MVP without being a power hitter, im saying Jeter was never good enough to win it. He was never the best player in his league. Great consistent players, but not the godlike superstar everyone talks him up to be.You do not win MVP playing great defense. You are missing the whole point, SS is The 2nd hardest position to play and C is the hardest.
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@dbarmonstar_PSN
I guess I am because I have no idea what point you're trying to make.
If your point is he deserved it because similar numbers to the other guys, he didn't. The other guys actually played defense and context also matters with the numbers because of how other players in the league play. -
@kovz88_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@dbarmonstar_PSN
I guess I am because I have no idea what point you're trying to make.
If your point is he deserved it because similar numbers to the other guys, he didn't. The other guys actually played defense and context also matters with the numbers because of how other players in the league play.Yeah you are missing the point, them comments of the other guy is what started this. The comparison to the other players is the fact the the number are close, defensive plays a small part in it. In 2006 Jeter finished 2nd in the voting, and he won a gold glove that year, The way I understood what the guy was saying in multiple post is that a guy can not win the MVP unless they are hitting 30 plus HR, 120 plus RBI, SLG, OPS and all of that. Take that for what it is worth. To make that debate I researched guys with numbers close to what Jeter numbers were in 2006 that have won the MVP with out being that type of hitter. Did Jeter deserve the MVP in 06 no not at all if he would have won it would have been deserving imo. If Ortiz or Dye or Santana would have won they all would have been deserving as well. You had to go to defense is to say why those players deserve the MVP they got, but defense is not why they won the MVP talking about Altuve 2017 cheated, McCutchen, Posey so on and so forth, You can make a case that Trout did not deserve the MVP in 2016.To take it further he said Jeter did not deserve because he hit singles, Ichiro won an MVP hitting nothing but singles with 69 RBI and 8 HR. I do not have a problem with those guys winning MVP, to make the arguement that Jeter did not deserve because he did not have power and only hit singles then that same person should think that about all these players that have won MVP that were the type of player Jeter was. The fact that Jeter played the second hardest pos in baseball. Understand that MVP are not just for the guy who slams a ton of HR and has 120 RBI, and OPS. The 2nd point is other player who do not win can still be deserving if they were not they would get 0 votes.
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@dbarmonstar_PSN
Yah I don't agree with everything the other guy said either but I still believe Jeter never deserved an MVP. Him winning the gold glove that year just shows the Yankee bias considering he had a negative defensive WAR. -
@kovz88_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@dbarmonstar_PSN
Yah I don't agree with everything the other guy said either but I still believe Jeter never deserved an MVP. Him winning the gold glove that year just shows the Yankee bias considering he had a negative defensive WAR.Yes I agree, there is an article that they got some writers or voters to re-vote the 2006 MVP and Jeter came out as the winner. I think Santana should have won the CY young and MVP that year. Saying someone has 0 MVP so they do not deserve to be MVP is crazy to me. A lot of the stuff the other guys said did not make any since to me.
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@kovz88_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@dbarmonstar_PSN
Yah I don't agree with everything the other guy said either but I still believe Jeter never deserved an MVP. Him winning the gold glove that year just shows the Yankee bias considering he had a negative defensive WAR.WAR was not used in voting or as a stat from what I research until 2008 with Fangraph and 2010 with Baseball Reference. That just make you think especially with defensive how many players won Gold Gloves that probably should not have. Some hitters might have won MVP that they did.
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@dbarmonstar_PSN
Agreed that there are plenty of players with no MVPs or CY Youngs that deserved to have won at least 1. My opinion is that Jeter is not one of those players and I feel like the numbers support that but he never won so whether he deserved to or not at this point really boils down to a matter of opinion. -
@kovz88_psn said in Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room:
@dbarmonstar_PSN
Agreed that there are plenty of players with no MVPs or CY Youngs that deserved to have won at least 1. My opinion is that Jeter is not one of those players and I feel like the numbers support that but he never won so whether he deserved to or not at this point really boils down to a matter of opinion.Totally agree
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@xBASHxDaddy23
I don’t think he won an AL MVP, he won a World Series MVP and a postseason MVP if I remember right
