These check swings in 20
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To say the check swings are a broken mechanic without acknowledging the role of the pitching meta is kind of a one-sided view of things.
Yes, check swings were a problem and not at all realistic but ridiculous breaking high sinkers and 102mph outliers for 7-8 innings is equally unrealistic.
I don’t think you can nerf one without nerfing the other.
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@ryan_2713_psn said in These check swings in 20:
if you had a good eye there wouldn't be a need to checkswing
You’re right, no .300 hitter check swings.
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@pnwtroutbum_psn said in These check swings in 20:
@a_perfectgame said in These check swings in 20:
@pnwtroutbum_psn said in These check swings in 20:
Honestly, from a pitching perspective this is great! It might even finally push me from the 870s to WS. I never have a problem hitting either way so it doesn’t make or break me.
But these same guys or even me will be down by 1 in the 9th with 2 outs, 2 strike count going for our WS game. Pitchers gonna bang a slider, were all going recognize it isn’t as fat as it looks. It’s going to break just off the plate. We will make a just early or good timed check and get rung up. Game over. And I bet in that moment, you’ll be wishing the game had more balance. Guarantee it.
You are minimizing the problem to be something that wasn’t a big deal...and now it’s something in 21 that is impossible to do. I had plenty of check swings in the beta. It’s way way way more balanced like it is in 21
I just played a game where a guy successfully check swung around 150x in the game. That’s a huge gameplay issue. It’s keeping a person in the game that should be striking out they aren’t recognizing anything off speed and are just waiting on fastballs that’s fine...however there is a price to pay for doing that and people need to pay that price.
I check swung successfully right around 50 percent although that was never a huge part of my gameplay
The check swing in 20 was 100% with out a doubt a broken mechanic.
Please refer to my latest post where in no way am I minimizing a problem in 20. Where I stated I wanted that fixed. Where I stated my results with check swings. Which were wonky. All I want is balance man. And they just virtually went away with check swings besides a few random cookies.
Hitting has NEVER been my problem either. As I also said, this will probably only benefit me as is now in 21. But in good competitive spirit I feel like hitters have been robbed slightly too much. They should never be gifted, 20 was broken, but 21 is just as broken, just now in the pitchers favor. And just like in real life baseball there are situations where a hitter deserves a check swing.
I’m not even asking 50/50 lol. I’m just saying if it’s well timed and on a pitch that’s not 2 ft off the plate, then maybe be forgiving. If it’s like you’re stating, the extremes, ring them up! If they check more than once and keep getting fooled in an AB. Ring them up! If a ball bounces 3 ft in front of the plate, batter flails but checked, doesn’t matter, ring him up! I’ve already stated this.
And I’ve talked about ideas that seemed to be in the right direction of balance without being able to be exploited. Like giving a batter the benefit of the doubt if they check with just early to just late timing and the pitch is borderline. That’s a real life situation where a batter may check. And that’s what the button is for. In fact I just saw Kyle Lewis check a 2-2 slider. Nobody even appealed. He obviously held up and recognized it wasn’t a strike. Should we call the MLB and say he is taking advantage of a system? If he takes the bat off his shoulder, he swings? No. Obviously not. It’s apart of baseball and That’s what the button is there for and has the capabilities of. I’d say another start is making it not dependent of any attributes at all. It doesn’t have to be random and it can be skill based. Last year was random for the batter. This year is random for the pitcher. Literally 3 of 40 called in a 7 game stretch(again obviously not a check swing bandit, but obviously being punished because of them). I had fair timing on close pitches on about 10-15 of them. The 3 called for me, I know I swung so I was gifted and it didn’t feel right. I’m not even asking for all 15 of those other checks either. But I’m saying even if I only got those ones that had some skill involved, it’s still only a 25% clip. And I wasn’t abusing it. I’d like to think I use it sparingly based off those results.
I’m going to such great depth on this because trust me, just like you, I want a competitive game. And I’m trying to provide the most unbiased argument on this. But getting rid of check swings and just making them lucky cookies here and there doesn’t feel like it’s in good competitive spirit. It’s a lazy solution to something that will remain a problem.
And honestly, it doesn’t matter anyway, you know just as much as I do that things will be way different one week after launch anyway. The last 2 betas I participated in, felt like they had been the savior to all problems especially last year with pitching and hitting, but once launch happens, as has been for the last 3-4 years. Nothing really changes. I’m rooting for SDS to make a change with next gen, but I’ll wait a month or two before I get duped over a pre-release testing again.
We can only hope that they do not revert back to 20s gameplay. I mean they HAVE to know 20 was not a good game gameplay wise.
I do however understand reverting 20 back because with the way the pitching was it was too unbalanced hitting wise. I think with the way pitching is faster and more fluid and harder to check swing...I think you are less likely to see games that are 15-14 every game.
This was where the problem lies imo with 20. They gave us more rewards with hits but still had the drawn out at bats with check swings and the easy timing of pitching plus all the forced mistakes — they reverted to rebalance? If that make sense? Or at least I hope that is why.
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Either way, 21 fixed this issue. I had a few checkswings go my way, had a few not go my way.
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@ikasnu_psn said in These check swings in 20:
@spokker_psn said in These check swings in 20:
@bigshowww79_psn said in These check swings in 20:
They were too skewed toward being called balls and too skewed to being called strikes in the <redacted>
Wouldn't a compromise fix be like if the swing timing on a check swing is Too Late/Too Early it's 100% called a strike, Very Late/Very Early is 85% called a strike, Just Late/Just early would be 50/50 and good timing would be 85% called balls?
So you are advocating for more RNG. In other words, a check swing would be called a strike in some situations no matter how light you are on the button. Are you going to prevent me from check swinging on purpose with contact swing?
That's fine and all, but let's call it what it is. Most people detest RNG in Diamond Dynasty, or at least they say that.
Holding up on your swing should always be penalized less than committing to your swing on a ball in the dirt. We've all faced those 10-12 pitch ABs where a guy fouls off everything at ankle height. Those should be looked at before check swings.
At least the check swinger did something different than the foul baller.
Removing the checkswing removes the RNG! Woot woot.
Yes please, let’s force the checkswing bandits to take some pitches
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@ibonafidescrub_ said in These check swings in 20:
@ikasnu_psn said in These check swings in 20:
@spokker_psn said in These check swings in 20:
@bigshowww79_psn said in These check swings in 20:
They were too skewed toward being called balls and too skewed to being called strikes in the <redacted>
Wouldn't a compromise fix be like if the swing timing on a check swing is Too Late/Too Early it's 100% called a strike, Very Late/Very Early is 85% called a strike, Just Late/Just early would be 50/50 and good timing would be 85% called balls?
So you are advocating for more RNG. In other words, a check swing would be called a strike in some situations no matter how light you are on the button. Are you going to prevent me from check swinging on purpose with contact swing?
That's fine and all, but let's call it what it is. Most people detest RNG in Diamond Dynasty, or at least they say that.
Holding up on your swing should always be penalized less than committing to your swing on a ball in the dirt. We've all faced those 10-12 pitch ABs where a guy fouls off everything at ankle height. Those should be looked at before check swings.
At least the check swinger did something different than the foul baller.
Removing the checkswing removes the RNG! Woot woot.
Yes please, let’s force the checkswing bandits to take some pitches
It forces them to have a better eye. In the beginning they will just strike out and the people who learn will improve the people who don’t will still strike out — either way it widens the skill gap
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@t00muchham_xbl said in These check swings in 20:
@ryan_2713_psn said in These check swings in 20:
if you had a good eye there wouldn't be a need to checkswing
You’re right, no .300 hitter check swings.
No .300 hitter check swings 4 times every at bat. It’s laughable when people trying to isolate things in this game that are broken and compare them to the mlb in possible scenarios of an at bat. We get that it’s possible to check swing. That’s not the argument. The argument is ppl can successfully check swing 150 times a game and it produces victories. It’s STILL possible to check swing in 21. You just can’t use it as a game style to win games. It’s not coming back.
It’s obviously totally fixed. I had zero problem getting a successful check swing.
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@a_perfectgame said in These check swings in 20:
@t00muchham_xbl said in These check swings in 20:
@ryan_2713_psn said in These check swings in 20:
if you had a good eye there wouldn't be a need to checkswing
You’re right, no .300 hitter check swings.
No .300 hitter check swings 4 times every at bat. It’s laughable when people trying to isolate things in this game that are broken and compare them to the mlb in possible scenarios of an at bat. We get that it’s possible to check swing. That’s not the argument. The argument is ppl can successfully check swing 150 times a game and it produces victories. It’s STILL possible to check swing in 21. You just can’t use it as a game style to win games. It’s not coming back.
It’s obviously totally fixed. I had zero problem getting a successful check swing.
It’s laughable when people try to make an argument with false data and hyperbole.
Your hyperbole consistently dampens your argument.
“You wouldn’t need to check swing if you had a good eye.” — great hitters do check swing. You didn’t disprove my notion but instead attempted to steamroll it with bad data.
“...Can successfully check swing 150 times a game.” I want the clip where this has happened.
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@t00muchham_xbl said in These check swings in 20:
@a_perfectgame said in These check swings in 20:
@t00muchham_xbl said in These check swings in 20:
@ryan_2713_psn said in These check swings in 20:
if you had a good eye there wouldn't be a need to checkswing
You’re right, no .300 hitter check swings.
No .300 hitter check swings 4 times every at bat. It’s laughable when people trying to isolate things in this game that are broken and compare them to the mlb in possible scenarios of an at bat. We get that it’s possible to check swing. That’s not the argument. The argument is ppl can successfully check swing 150 times a game and it produces victories. It’s STILL possible to check swing in 21. You just can’t use it as a game style to win games. It’s not coming back.
It’s obviously totally fixed. I had zero problem getting a successful check swing.
It’s laughable when people try to make an argument with false data and hyperbole.
Your hyperbole consistently dampens your argument.
“You wouldn’t need to check swing if you had a good eye.” — great hitters do check swing. You didn’t disprove my notion but instead attempted to steamroll it with bad data.
“...Can successfully check swing 150 times a game.” I want the clip where this has happened.
I mean if you haven’t experienced it in game then you haven’t played enough. In mlb 20 I can successfully check swing every time if I wanted absolutely effortlessly. It’s straight up broken. If you want it back you are part of the problem.
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@a_perfectgame said in These check swings in 20:
@t00muchham_xbl said in These check swings in 20:
@a_perfectgame said in These check swings in 20:
@t00muchham_xbl said in These check swings in 20:
@ryan_2713_psn said in These check swings in 20:
if you had a good eye there wouldn't be a need to checkswing
You’re right, no .300 hitter check swings.
No .300 hitter check swings 4 times every at bat. It’s laughable when people trying to isolate things in this game that are broken and compare them to the mlb in possible scenarios of an at bat. We get that it’s possible to check swing. That’s not the argument. The argument is ppl can successfully check swing 150 times a game and it produces victories. It’s STILL possible to check swing in 21. You just can’t use it as a game style to win games. It’s not coming back.
It’s obviously totally fixed. I had zero problem getting a successful check swing.
It’s laughable when people try to make an argument with false data and hyperbole.
Your hyperbole consistently dampens your argument.
“You wouldn’t need to check swing if you had a good eye.” — great hitters do check swing. You didn’t disprove my notion but instead attempted to steamroll it with bad data.
“...Can successfully check swing 150 times a game.” I want the clip where this has happened.
I mean if you haven’t experienced it in game then you haven’t played enough. In mlb 20 I can successfully check swing every time if I wanted absolutely effortlessly. It’s straight up broken. If you want it back you are part of the problem.
- I have been playing the game for a decade now. So I have played it enough. I am waiting for the super-cut of 150 check swings in a game.
- Your stubbornness blinds you. Where did I say I want it the way it was? I pretty sure my point was to point-out the misuse of hyperbole.
- Your inability to articulate your concern, and attacking someone else by calling them "part of the problem" makes you a problem.
I am very interested to read more about who I am according to you though.
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150 check swings is an exaggeration, but it is not an exaggeration to see a guy get 7-8 checkswings in an inning and have none of them go against him.
I've even done this myself countless times, really happy they fixed this mechanic, although I still favor removing the function entirely.
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@ikasnu_psn said in These check swings in 20:
150 check swings is an exaggeration, but it is not an exaggeration to see a guy get 7-8 checkswings in an inning and have none of them go against him.
I've even done this myself countless times, really happy they fixed this mechanic, although I still favor removing the function entirely.
This I can get in-line with, though I disagree with removing the function entirely.
For me it has to do with what a player has a right to do. Pitchers have the right to throw balls, strikes, paint the corners, etc. a batter has a right to sit on pitches, swing away and check-themselves when they are deceived but recognize it.
[insert name] thinks people spam check-swings too much. Well I am pretty sure that [insert name] is tired of pitchers spamming breaking-balls outside of the strike zone the whole game. [Insert name] hates bunt dancing. [Insert name] hates not getting a quick moment between pitches while at the plate. So now we are going to:
- Remove check swings
- Limit Breaking balls per-at-bat
- Limit bunt selection
- Put a window of time between pitches
We starting going down a rabbit hole and eventually lose the original intent of the game -- to create a fun simulation experience. "But Ken, 8 check swings an inning is ridiculous..." Well, so is throwing 66% sliders when the pitcher has 4 different pitches and the slider is their third best option.
You want to stop check swings? Throw strikes and force the hitter to either strike-out check-swinging/looking or make them make contact in a way that lets the fielders field.
I was happy with how they shifted check-swings in the beta; because prior to the change, the check-swing would benefit the hitter a vast majority of the time. With that said, I am not going to sit here and listen to ridiculous "data" and be called "a problem" because I disagree with someone's opinion that is based on a feeling of how things should be.
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@halfbutt_psn said in These check swings in 20:
To say the check swings are a broken mechanic without acknowledging the role of the pitching meta is kind of a one-sided view of things.
Yes, check swings were a problem and not at all realistic but ridiculous breaking high sinkers and 102mph outliers for 7-8 innings is equally unrealistic.
I don’t think you can nerf one without nerfing the other.
Dang, you literally beat me to it! Thank you! Someone who has a lens wide enough to see the situation in its entirety.
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@ikasnu_psn said in These check swings in 20:
150 check swings is an exaggeration, but it is not an exaggeration to see a guy get 7-8 checkswings in an inning and have none of them go against him.
I've even done this myself countless times, really happy they fixed this mechanic, although I still favor removing the function entirely.
I’ve seen players that check swing 4-5 times an at bat. 27 x 5 is 135...ok I’ve seen 135 check swings in a game 150 in extra innings
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@t00muchham_xbl said in These check swings in 20:
@ikasnu_psn said in These check swings in 20:
150 check swings is an exaggeration, but it is not an exaggeration to see a guy get 7-8 checkswings in an inning and have none of them go against him.
I've even done this myself countless times, really happy they fixed this mechanic, although I still favor removing the function entirely.
This I can get in-line with, though I disagree with removing the function entirely.
For me it has to do with what a player has a right to do. Pitchers have the right to throw balls, strikes, paint the corners, etc. a batter has a right to sit on pitches, swing away and check-themselves when they are deceived but recognize it.
[insert name] thinks people spam check-swings too much. Well I am pretty sure that [insert name] is tired of pitchers spamming breaking-balls outside of the strike zone the whole game. [Insert name] hates bunt dancing. [Insert name] hates not getting a quick moment between pitches while at the plate. So now we are going to:
- Remove check swings
- Limit Breaking balls per-at-bat
- Limit bunt selection
- Put a window of time between pitches
We starting going down a rabbit hole and eventually lose the original intent of the game -- to create a fun simulation experience. "But Ken, 8 check swings an inning is ridiculous..." Well, so is throwing 66% sliders when the pitcher has 4 different pitches and the slider is their third best option.
You want to stop check swings? Throw strikes and force the hitter to either strike-out check-swinging/looking or make them make contact in a way that lets the fielders field.
I was happy with how they shifted check-swings in the beta; because prior to the change, the check-swing would benefit the hitter a vast majority of the time. With that said, I am not going to sit here and listen to ridiculous "data" and be called "a problem" because I disagree with someone's opinion that is based on a feeling of how things should be.
That’s the problem. it’s a HITTERS responsibility to earn strikes. If you want the pitcher to throw strikes.,. Don’t swing at balls. That’s baseball
Btw. I agree high sinkers are OP any good contact on high sinkers should be a hit.
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@a_perfectgame said in These check swings in 20:
@t00muchham_xbl said in These check swings in 20:
@a_perfectgame said in These check swings in 20:
@t00muchham_xbl said in These check swings in 20:
@ryan_2713_psn said in These check swings in 20:
if you had a good eye there wouldn't be a need to checkswing
You’re right, no .300 hitter check swings.
No .300 hitter check swings 4 times every at bat. It’s laughable when people trying to isolate things in this game that are broken and compare them to the mlb in possible scenarios of an at bat. We get that it’s possible to check swing. That’s not the argument. The argument is ppl can successfully check swing 150 times a game and it produces victories. It’s STILL possible to check swing in 21. You just can’t use it as a game style to win games. It’s not coming back.
It’s obviously totally fixed. I had zero problem getting a successful check swing.
It’s laughable when people try to make an argument with false data and hyperbole.
Your hyperbole consistently dampens your argument.
“You wouldn’t need to check swing if you had a good eye.” — great hitters do check swing. You didn’t disprove my notion but instead attempted to steamroll it with bad data.
“...Can successfully check swing 150 times a game.” I want the clip where this has happened.
I mean if you haven’t experienced it in game then you haven’t played enough. In mlb 20 I can successfully check swing every time if I wanted absolutely effortlessly. It’s straight up broken. If you want it back you are part of the problem.
How does one control their checkswing? For me I can smash the X button for a checkswing on a ball and then breathe on the O button next pitch and strike out swinging.
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@red_ted_is_back said in These check swings in 20:
@a_perfectgame said in These check swings in 20:
@t00muchham_xbl said in These check swings in 20:
@a_perfectgame said in These check swings in 20:
@t00muchham_xbl said in These check swings in 20:
@ryan_2713_psn said in These check swings in 20:
if you had a good eye there wouldn't be a need to checkswing
You’re right, no .300 hitter check swings.
No .300 hitter check swings 4 times every at bat. It’s laughable when people trying to isolate things in this game that are broken and compare them to the mlb in possible scenarios of an at bat. We get that it’s possible to check swing. That’s not the argument. The argument is ppl can successfully check swing 150 times a game and it produces victories. It’s STILL possible to check swing in 21. You just can’t use it as a game style to win games. It’s not coming back.
It’s obviously totally fixed. I had zero problem getting a successful check swing.
It’s laughable when people try to make an argument with false data and hyperbole.
Your hyperbole consistently dampens your argument.
“You wouldn’t need to check swing if you had a good eye.” — great hitters do check swing. You didn’t disprove my notion but instead attempted to steamroll it with bad data.
“...Can successfully check swing 150 times a game.” I want the clip where this has happened.
I mean if you haven’t experienced it in game then you haven’t played enough. In mlb 20 I can successfully check swing every time if I wanted absolutely effortlessly. It’s straight up broken. If you want it back you are part of the problem.
How does one control their checkswing? For me I can smash the X button for a checkswing on a ball and then breathe on the O button next pitch and strike out swinging.
In 21? It’s hit or miss as it should be. There’s so much torque behind check swinging and even though it’s a skill the best players get caught out there. It should be one of those things that is high risk low reward. 21 seems to grasp that concept well.
There should be no way to successfully check swing every time you read off speed. No mlb player in the history of mlb players could do it like it was done in 20. It’s perfect how it is imo in 21. It’s a huge game fix.
I just really hope they do something about foul tips. Only I don’t know if they could accomplish that without really jeopardizing the integrity of the entire hitting engine.
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@a_perfectgame said in These check swings in 20:
@t00muchham_xbl said in These check swings in 20:
@ikasnu_psn said in These check swings in 20:
150 check swings is an exaggeration, but it is not an exaggeration to see a guy get 7-8 checkswings in an inning and have none of them go against him.
I've even done this myself countless times, really happy they fixed this mechanic, although I still favor removing the function entirely.
This I can get in-line with, though I disagree with removing the function entirely.
For me it has to do with what a player has a right to do. Pitchers have the right to throw balls, strikes, paint the corners, etc. a batter has a right to sit on pitches, swing away and check-themselves when they are deceived but recognize it.
[insert name] thinks people spam check-swings too much. Well I am pretty sure that [insert name] is tired of pitchers spamming breaking-balls outside of the strike zone the whole game. [Insert name] hates bunt dancing. [Insert name] hates not getting a quick moment between pitches while at the plate. So now we are going to:
- Remove check swings
- Limit Breaking balls per-at-bat
- Limit bunt selection
- Put a window of time between pitches
We starting going down a rabbit hole and eventually lose the original intent of the game -- to create a fun simulation experience. "But Ken, 8 check swings an inning is ridiculous..." Well, so is throwing 66% sliders when the pitcher has 4 different pitches and the slider is their third best option.
You want to stop check swings? Throw strikes and force the hitter to either strike-out check-swinging/looking or make them make contact in a way that lets the fielders field.
I was happy with how they shifted check-swings in the beta; because prior to the change, the check-swing would benefit the hitter a vast majority of the time. With that said, I am not going to sit here and listen to ridiculous "data" and be called "a problem" because I disagree with someone's opinion that is based on a feeling of how things should be.
it’s a HITTERS responsibility to earn strikes.
Btw. I agree high sinkers are OP any good contact on high sinkers should be a hit.
That is a sling lens view. I could also argue that it is the pitchers responsibility to earn strikes. Just because it sounds right does make it correct.
"In order to get me to swing, you have to throw something in the zone...in order for you to get a ball in zone, you have to make me throw strikes..."
"In order to get me to throw strikes, you have to sit on pitches. If you want me to sit on pitches, stop putting everything in the zone."
How about "If you want to win, you have to put the other in a difficult position to execute their objective." and now we come back to balance.
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