Thoughts on control
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It is occurring to me that all my frustrations with the game this year could be boiled down to one thing, control.
The game of baseball is controlled by pitching. Anyone who doubts this just needs to go watch a little league game again. The game depends on the pitcher throwing strikes.
The biggest change I noticed this year right out of the gate was how much harder a time I had hitting my spots pitching. All my pitching stats were significantly worse than the previous year. I am also better at pitching than hitting, so it took me quite a while to adjust. I think my online record was below .500 for more than half the year (not that it means anything, but it was relevant to me in comparison to previous years).
The other thing that was really irking me was how few good pitches to hit I’d get in moments and games vs cpu, even sometimes on veteran difficulty.
Then it occurred to me. I am frustrated because the outcome of the game is not under my control. If I want to hit, I need to patiently wait for a mistake and wear the pitcher confidence down. Even when I have good release pitching, the ball doesn’t necessarily go where I want.
I agree with many of the suggestions you guys have about how to improve the game, but the biggest thing to me is that we, the players, need to be given back a modicum of control over the outcome of the game.
Who cares how unrealistic the stats are? This is a video game, not real life.
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It’s intentionally designed to compliment the new perfect/perfect hitting system in my view. They have previously been crucified consistently for trying to adjust the game via the medium of jarring and unfair timing windows and pitch speeds from patch to patch and difficulty to difficulty in previous years. This year they’ve set pitch speeds and timing windows on the harder side of the difficulty scale, in order to silence the complaints about pitch speeds and timing windows. I think they’ve done a good job and I have no major complaints about pitch speeds or timing windows this year compared to previous years. They’re effective and there’s a definitive adjustment to be made when facing a pitcher who throws 102mph but has a nasty slider or change up to play off of it. Speed differentials are good this year. However.
However.
Also in my personal view, SDS feel that this increase in difficulty will frustrate the casual gamer, who won’t find it challenging, but instead too difficult to persevere with. To compensate for the pitch speeds and differentials being scaled up, particularly on all star, they increased PCI size slightly. Sensing this wouldn’t resolve the issue with terrible players being fooled every time, they increased the outer PCI or vision component massively. This was the first major misstep. It ruins pitching. If you can’t induce a swing and a miss, you can’t attack and end ABs early, or fool hitters effectively. I strike out a lot of guys and I strike out a lot myself, but nowhere near as fast as I should strike guys out or strike out myself, because there are too many foul tips on pitches that completely had me fooled and off balance. The real nail in the coffin was the “random hangers on good input”. I can’t offer any rationale on SDS’ thought process here. I’ve tried. I’ve analysed my hanging pitches in slow motion, I’ve tried to account for variables and it’s just terrible and the main reason this game stinks like [censored] this year. You aim a pitch to a location, you have good or even very good, rarely even perfect input, using a pitcher with elite command and high confidence and energy and you miss your intended location by a large margin, often dangerously over the plate. It’s frustrating and ruins the gameplay. Add in the juiced hitting features this year, intended to kill complaints that hitting isn’t rewarding good input and you have a recipe for the disaster that has been MLB ‘20 the Home Run Derby show.
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@halfbutt said in Thoughts on control:
It is occurring to me that all my frustrations with the game this year could be boiled down to one thing, control.
The game of baseball is controlled by pitching. Anyone who doubts this just needs to go watch a little league game again. The game depends on the pitcher throwing strikes.
The biggest change I noticed this year right out of the gate was how much harder a time I had hitting my spots pitching. All my pitching stats were significantly worse than the previous year. I am also better at pitching than hitting, so it took me quite a while to adjust. I think my online record was below .500 for more than half the year (not that it means anything, but it was relevant to me in comparison to previous years).
The other thing that was really irking me was how few good pitches to hit I’d get in moments and games vs cpu, even sometimes on veteran difficulty.
Then it occurred to me. I am frustrated because the outcome of the game is not under my control. If I want to hit, I need to patiently wait for a mistake and wear the pitcher confidence down. Even when I have good release pitching, the ball doesn’t necessarily go where I want.
I agree with many of the suggestions you guys have about how to improve the game, but the biggest thing to me is that we, the players, need to be given back a modicum of control over the outcome of the game.
Who cares how unrealistic the stats are? This is a video game, not real life.
You had me at modicum.
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Pitching was too easy in previous years IMO. I like the current balance
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@scottswann said in Thoughts on control:
Pitching was too easy in previous years IMO. I like the current balance
Would you say that because pitching was too accurate, or simply because hitting wasn’t rewarding your good swings often enough? Because I can live with good hitting input being rewarded, provided my pitching input is rewarded as well. Currently I feel it’s not.
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@scottswann said in Thoughts on control:
Pitching was too easy in previous years IMO. I like the current balance
By “balance” do you mean hitting and pitching being equally difficult?
To me, it is really hard to evaluate difficulty at all, because there is such a clear element of randomness to each.
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@halfbutt and @comebacklogic great posts.
‘ The real nail in the coffin was the “random hangers on good input”. I can’t offer any rationale on SDS’ thought process here. ’
Comeback, I reckon halfbutt gave the rationale - wait for a mistake.
Halfbutt, in saying that, this is where the emulating real life hitting has been attempted. You are so right in saying that the pitcher controls the outcome of a plate appearance. Batters are at the mercy of the pitcher, and pitchers have the batter’s reputation at the front of mind when selecting which pitch, when and where.
I wish I had more time to think this response through, but I don’t so I’ll give a sentence.
Unfortunately, of course, as you have both alluded to, the balance isn’t quite right yet because the market is a blend of ‘casual noobs’ who just want to win despite their lack of practice or skills, and die hards who want their own skills to matter more.
Edit: these two sub-markets need to be separated in online play. Custom Leagues is a start.
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@ComebackLogic said in Thoughts on control:
@scottswann said in Thoughts on control:
Pitching was too easy in previous years IMO. I like the current balance
Would you say that because pitching was too accurate, or simply because hitting wasn’t rewarding your good swings often enough? Because I can live with good hitting input being rewarded, provided my pitching input is rewarded as well. Currently I feel it’s not.
I felt pitching accuracy was too easy. Hitting is a completely different animal
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@scottswann said in Thoughts on control:
@ComebackLogic said in Thoughts on control:
@scottswann said in Thoughts on control:
Pitching was too easy in previous years IMO. I like the current balance
Would you say that because pitching was too accurate, or simply because hitting wasn’t rewarding your good swings often enough? Because I can live with good hitting input being rewarded, provided my pitching input is rewarded as well. Currently I feel it’s not.
I felt pitching accuracy was too easy. Hitting is a completely different animal
While hitting may, or may not, be a completely different animal, the fact remains if you move your analog stick to the left slightly, the PCI will move to the left slightly. If you slam it down, it will move to the lower limits of the zone. If I aim a pitch somewhere with good input and it goes somewhere entirely different, we have a serious issue. It’s not a case of increasing pitching difficulty by placing the pitch in a random location. That makes zero sense. What we have here is analogous to pushing the left analog stick up and the PCI moves down. If you think pitching is too easy, the answer is to make it more difficult to hit the meter perfectly, not to randomly throw the ball in a different location regardless of what the user does with his input. Think about what you’re actually proposing here for a second.
This brings me neatly onto my second point in response to the post made by @Red_Ted_is_back
“The real nail in the coffin was the “random hangers on good input”. I can’t offer any rationale on SDS’ thought process here. ’
Comeback, I reckon halfbutt gave the rationale - wait for a mistake.“
I have zero issues with SDS trying to encourage hitters to be more disciplined and wait for a mistake. I have severe reservations about the fact that while the batter is waiting for a mistake, if the pitching player doesn’t make one, the game will engineer a mistake at random on good input in order to generate action. Waiting for a mistake is absolutely fine, it’s the premise of good hitting. I’d also have issues if the game were giving players a greater chance of successfully hitting the ball in a 3-1 or 2-0 count than 0-0. However, I’ve actually looked closely at that as well and I’ve found very little in the way of actual evidence to support that theory, which is why you’ll never hear me complain about things like first pitch swings being nerfed and so on. In my experience you have as much opportunity to hit an 0-1 pitch as you do a 1-0 pitch and so on.
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@scottswann said in Thoughts on control:
@ComebackLogic said in Thoughts on control:
@scottswann said in Thoughts on control:
Pitching was too easy in previous years IMO. I like the current balance
Would you say that because pitching was too accurate, or simply because hitting wasn’t rewarding your good swings often enough? Because I can live with good hitting input being rewarded, provided my pitching input is rewarded as well. Currently I feel it’s not.
I felt pitching accuracy was too easy. Hitting is a completely different animal
I would be ok if they made the pitching input more difficult, but it’s doing everything right in the mechanism they’ve created and then not being rewarded for it.
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@vagimon said in Thoughts on control:
@scottswann said in Thoughts on control:
@ComebackLogic said in Thoughts on control:
@scottswann said in Thoughts on control:
Pitching was too easy in previous years IMO. I like the current balance
Would you say that because pitching was too accurate, or simply because hitting wasn’t rewarding your good swings often enough? Because I can live with good hitting input being rewarded, provided my pitching input is rewarded as well. Currently I feel it’s not.
I felt pitching accuracy was too easy. Hitting is a completely different animal
I would be ok if they made the pitching input more difficult, but it’s doing everything right in the mechanism they’ve created and then not being rewarded for it.
Exactly man. They can’t just say “Well, we finally have pitch speeds, swing timing windows and speed differentials in a fairly good place this year. That’s going to make it easy for players to spam the corners to generate strikeouts. Let’s spice it up by having what should be dots randomly hang over the middle of the plate sometimes, just to give bad hitters a chance to compete.”
Also, there’s a major issue with the flawed pitching input system, particularly as relates to pure analog controls. Instead of randomly hanging the pitch down the middle when I do miss my input, can we have some logic applied to the manner in which I miss my input? If I release a fastball early it should be higher than my intended target. If I release it late, it should be lower. If I release a slider early, it should hang over the plate, if I release it late it should be dragged too far across the zone for an obvious ball. If I release a change up early, it should hang, if I release a change up late it should spike into the dirt, forfeiting the deception of speed and late downward break that a good release would have afforded the pitcher. Just use some logic FFS, it’s surely not that hard.
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@ComebackLogic said in Thoughts on control:
@vagimon said in Thoughts on control:
@scottswann said in Thoughts on control:
@ComebackLogic said in Thoughts on control:
@scottswann said in Thoughts on control:
Pitching was too easy in previous years IMO. I like the current balance
Would you say that because pitching was too accurate, or simply because hitting wasn’t rewarding your good swings often enough? Because I can live with good hitting input being rewarded, provided my pitching input is rewarded as well. Currently I feel it’s not.
I felt pitching accuracy was too easy. Hitting is a completely different animal
I would be ok if they made the pitching input more difficult, but it’s doing everything right in the mechanism they’ve created and then not being rewarded for it.
Exactly man. They can’t just say “Well, we finally have pitch speeds, swing timing windows and speed differentials in a fairly good place this year. That’s going to make it easy for players to spam the corners to generate strikeouts. Let’s spice it up by having what should be dots randomly hang over the middle of the plate sometimes, just to give bad hitters a chance to compete.”
Also, there’s a major issue with the flawed pitching input system, particularly as relates to pure analog controls. Instead of randomly hanging the pitch down the middle when I do miss my input, can we have some logic applied to the manner in which I miss my input? If I release a fastball early it should be higher than my intended target. If I release it late, it should be lower. If I release a slider early, it should hang over the plate, if I release it late it should be dragged too far across the zone for an obvious ball. If I release a change up early, it should hang, if I release a change up late it should spike into the dirt, forfeiting the deception of speed and late downward break that a good release would have afforded the pitcher. Just use some logic FFS, it’s surely not that hard.
With regards to your last point, whilst I would also appreciate that, it may not make for an enjoyable game against a player who or connection or screen which can’t handle this logic in their pitching interface. They may be attempting to pitch to the middle of the zone and because their inputs are constantly late, or input lag or or connection lag cause this, it would be constant balls in the dirt. With the way it is at present, at least hitters have a chance at swinging the bat and even getting good hits.
I think logical outcomes have been discarded for this reason.
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@Red_Ted_is_back said in Thoughts on control:
@ComebackLogic said in Thoughts on control:
@vagimon said in Thoughts on control:
@scottswann said in Thoughts on control:
@ComebackLogic said in Thoughts on control:
@scottswann said in Thoughts on control:
Pitching was too easy in previous years IMO. I like the current balance
Would you say that because pitching was too accurate, or simply because hitting wasn’t rewarding your good swings often enough? Because I can live with good hitting input being rewarded, provided my pitching input is rewarded as well. Currently I feel it’s not.
I felt pitching accuracy was too easy. Hitting is a completely different animal
I would be ok if they made the pitching input more difficult, but it’s doing everything right in the mechanism they’ve created and then not being rewarded for it.
Exactly man. They can’t just say “Well, we finally have pitch speeds, swing timing windows and speed differentials in a fairly good place this year. That’s going to make it easy for players to spam the corners to generate strikeouts. Let’s spice it up by having what should be dots randomly hang over the middle of the plate sometimes, just to give bad hitters a chance to compete.”
Also, there’s a major issue with the flawed pitching input system, particularly as relates to pure analog controls. Instead of randomly hanging the pitch down the middle when I do miss my input, can we have some logic applied to the manner in which I miss my input? If I release a fastball early it should be higher than my intended target. If I release it late, it should be lower. If I release a slider early, it should hang over the plate, if I release it late it should be dragged too far across the zone for an obvious ball. If I release a change up early, it should hang, if I release a change up late it should spike into the dirt, forfeiting the deception of speed and late downward break that a good release would have afforded the pitcher. Just use some logic FFS, it’s surely not that hard.
With regards to your last point, whilst I would also appreciate that, it may not make for an enjoyable game against a player who or connection or screen which can’t handle this logic in their pitching interface. They may be attempting to pitch to the middle of the zone and because their inputs are constantly late, or input lag or or connection lag cause this, it would be constant balls in the dirt. With the way it is at present, at least hitters have a chance at swinging the bat and even getting good hits.
I think logical outcomes have been discarded for this reason.
This is how pitching worked prior to ‘18. It felt better to me. It’s balanced across all control methods, as you can still release the ball early or late with pulse or meter.
We also have the problem that even with good input, pitches do not locate accurately this year, even with pitchers who have elite control and BB/9. We have heard a lot about hitting changes this year in SDS streams and so on, you always hear about fielding changes, but you never hear about pitching. It’s a major part of the game and it’s not only being overlooked, it’s being consigned to irrelevance.
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@ComebackLogic said in Thoughts on control:
@Red_Ted_is_back said in Thoughts on control:
@ComebackLogic said in Thoughts on control:
@vagimon said in Thoughts on control:
@scottswann said in Thoughts on control:
@ComebackLogic said in Thoughts on control:
@scottswann said in Thoughts on control:
Pitching was too easy in previous years IMO. I like the current balance
Would you say that because pitching was too accurate, or simply because hitting wasn’t rewarding your good swings often enough? Because I can live with good hitting input being rewarded, provided my pitching input is rewarded as well. Currently I feel it’s not.
I felt pitching accuracy was too easy. Hitting is a completely different animal
I would be ok if they made the pitching input more difficult, but it’s doing everything right in the mechanism they’ve created and then not being rewarded for it.
Exactly man. They can’t just say “Well, we finally have pitch speeds, swing timing windows and speed differentials in a fairly good place this year. That’s going to make it easy for players to spam the corners to generate strikeouts. Let’s spice it up by having what should be dots randomly hang over the middle of the plate sometimes, just to give bad hitters a chance to compete.”
Also, there’s a major issue with the flawed pitching input system, particularly as relates to pure analog controls. Instead of randomly hanging the pitch down the middle when I do miss my input, can we have some logic applied to the manner in which I miss my input? If I release a fastball early it should be higher than my intended target. If I release it late, it should be lower. If I release a slider early, it should hang over the plate, if I release it late it should be dragged too far across the zone for an obvious ball. If I release a change up early, it should hang, if I release a change up late it should spike into the dirt, forfeiting the deception of speed and late downward break that a good release would have afforded the pitcher. Just use some logic FFS, it’s surely not that hard.
With regards to your last point, whilst I would also appreciate that, it may not make for an enjoyable game against a player who or connection or screen which can’t handle this logic in their pitching interface. They may be attempting to pitch to the middle of the zone and because their inputs are constantly late, or input lag or or connection lag cause this, it would be constant balls in the dirt. With the way it is at present, at least hitters have a chance at swinging the bat and even getting good hits.
I think logical outcomes have been discarded for this reason.
This is how pitching worked prior to ‘18. It felt better to me. It’s balanced across all control methods, as you can still release the ball early or late with pulse or meter.
We also have the problem that even with good input, pitches do not locate accurately this year, even with pitchers who have elite control and BB/9. We have heard a lot about hitting changes this year in SDS streams and so on, you always hear about fielding changes, but you never hear about pitching. It’s a major part of the game and it’s not only being overlooked, it’s being consigned to irrelevance.
I’m willing to bet my PS5 that pitching is TS21’s gameplay focus. Back in April this was my summation, and baserunning too. Although with next gen, multi-platform and COVID, I think baserunning will be pushed back.
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@Red_Ted_is_back said in Thoughts on control:
@ComebackLogic said in Thoughts on control:
@Red_Ted_is_back said in Thoughts on control:
@ComebackLogic said in Thoughts on control:
@vagimon said in Thoughts on control:
@scottswann said in Thoughts on control:
@ComebackLogic said in Thoughts on control:
@scottswann said in Thoughts on control:
Pitching was too easy in previous years IMO. I like the current balance
Would you say that because pitching was too accurate, or simply because hitting wasn’t rewarding your good swings often enough? Because I can live with good hitting input being rewarded, provided my pitching input is rewarded as well. Currently I feel it’s not.
I felt pitching accuracy was too easy. Hitting is a completely different animal
I would be ok if they made the pitching input more difficult, but it’s doing everything right in the mechanism they’ve created and then not being rewarded for it.
Exactly man. They can’t just say “Well, we finally have pitch speeds, swing timing windows and speed differentials in a fairly good place this year. That’s going to make it easy for players to spam the corners to generate strikeouts. Let’s spice it up by having what should be dots randomly hang over the middle of the plate sometimes, just to give bad hitters a chance to compete.”
Also, there’s a major issue with the flawed pitching input system, particularly as relates to pure analog controls. Instead of randomly hanging the pitch down the middle when I do miss my input, can we have some logic applied to the manner in which I miss my input? If I release a fastball early it should be higher than my intended target. If I release it late, it should be lower. If I release a slider early, it should hang over the plate, if I release it late it should be dragged too far across the zone for an obvious ball. If I release a change up early, it should hang, if I release a change up late it should spike into the dirt, forfeiting the deception of speed and late downward break that a good release would have afforded the pitcher. Just use some logic FFS, it’s surely not that hard.
With regards to your last point, whilst I would also appreciate that, it may not make for an enjoyable game against a player who or connection or screen which can’t handle this logic in their pitching interface. They may be attempting to pitch to the middle of the zone and because their inputs are constantly late, or input lag or or connection lag cause this, it would be constant balls in the dirt. With the way it is at present, at least hitters have a chance at swinging the bat and even getting good hits.
I think logical outcomes have been discarded for this reason.
This is how pitching worked prior to ‘18. It felt better to me. It’s balanced across all control methods, as you can still release the ball early or late with pulse or meter.
We also have the problem that even with good input, pitches do not locate accurately this year, even with pitchers who have elite control and BB/9. We have heard a lot about hitting changes this year in SDS streams and so on, you always hear about fielding changes, but you never hear about pitching. It’s a major part of the game and it’s not only being overlooked, it’s being consigned to irrelevance.
I’m willing to bet my PS5 that pitching is TS21’s gameplay focus. Back in April this was my summation, and baserunning too. Although with next gen, multi-platform and COVID, I think baserunning will be pushed back.
It would be nice, but it’s only when complaints reach the status of being a running joke that they even attempt to fix them. I’ll see your PS5 and raise you an XBOX that if they reuse this engine, we see a recurrence of outfielders not fielding balls near walls in the early stages of the year. Again. The show has become such a bad copy and paste job of the previous versions, they just copy the errors in the code and paste in broken features that they’re well aware of from the past. It’s awful.
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@ComebackLogic said in Thoughts on control:
@Red_Ted_is_back said in Thoughts on control:
@ComebackLogic said in Thoughts on control:
@Red_Ted_is_back said in Thoughts on control:
@ComebackLogic said in Thoughts on control:
@vagimon said in Thoughts on control:
@scottswann said in Thoughts on control:
@ComebackLogic said in Thoughts on control:
@scottswann said in Thoughts on control:
Pitching was too easy in previous years IMO. I like the current balance
Would you say that because pitching was too accurate, or simply because hitting wasn’t rewarding your good swings often enough? Because I can live with good hitting input being rewarded, provided my pitching input is rewarded as well. Currently I feel it’s not.
I felt pitching accuracy was too easy. Hitting is a completely different animal
I would be ok if they made the pitching input more difficult, but it’s doing everything right in the mechanism they’ve created and then not being rewarded for it.
Exactly man. They can’t just say “Well, we finally have pitch speeds, swing timing windows and speed differentials in a fairly good place this year. That’s going to make it easy for players to spam the corners to generate strikeouts. Let’s spice it up by having what should be dots randomly hang over the middle of the plate sometimes, just to give bad hitters a chance to compete.”
Also, there’s a major issue with the flawed pitching input system, particularly as relates to pure analog controls. Instead of randomly hanging the pitch down the middle when I do miss my input, can we have some logic applied to the manner in which I miss my input? If I release a fastball early it should be higher than my intended target. If I release it late, it should be lower. If I release a slider early, it should hang over the plate, if I release it late it should be dragged too far across the zone for an obvious ball. If I release a change up early, it should hang, if I release a change up late it should spike into the dirt, forfeiting the deception of speed and late downward break that a good release would have afforded the pitcher. Just use some logic FFS, it’s surely not that hard.
With regards to your last point, whilst I would also appreciate that, it may not make for an enjoyable game against a player who or connection or screen which can’t handle this logic in their pitching interface. They may be attempting to pitch to the middle of the zone and because their inputs are constantly late, or input lag or or connection lag cause this, it would be constant balls in the dirt. With the way it is at present, at least hitters have a chance at swinging the bat and even getting good hits.
I think logical outcomes have been discarded for this reason.
This is how pitching worked prior to ‘18. It felt better to me. It’s balanced across all control methods, as you can still release the ball early or late with pulse or meter.
We also have the problem that even with good input, pitches do not locate accurately this year, even with pitchers who have elite control and BB/9. We have heard a lot about hitting changes this year in SDS streams and so on, you always hear about fielding changes, but you never hear about pitching. It’s a major part of the game and it’s not only being overlooked, it’s being consigned to irrelevance.
I’m willing to bet my PS5 that pitching is TS21’s gameplay focus. Back in April this was my summation, and baserunning too. Although with next gen, multi-platform and COVID, I think baserunning will be pushed back.
It would be nice, but it’s only when complaints reach the status of being a running joke that they even attempt to fix them. I’ll see your PS5 and raise you an XBOX that if they reuse this engine, we see a recurrence of outfielders not fielding balls near walls in the early stages of the year. Again. The show has become such a bad copy and paste job of the previous versions, they just copy the errors in the code and paste in broken features that they’re well aware of from the past. It’s awful.
I can’t help but feel that things will not significantly improve without a major paradigm shift in game design.
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I can’t tell you how many times I’ve thrown a change up In the dirt with perfect perfect release to a goon who swings at anything only to watch it hang in the zone and get hit out of the park. Between that and the fact that the whole league seems to be hitting over .300 now, it’s a very frustrating time for pitchers. More people like to hit than pitch though, that’s where their money is.
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