We Demand Justice
-
TL/DR: Like this post to vote for an increase of Stan Musial’s speed attribute
Here is my case:
Ok, so a few weeks ago I posted that Stan Musial was done dirty with his 47 speed. I mentioned that he was tied for 19th on the all-time triples list, and only one player ahead of him was even born in the 20th century. The guys ahead of him played in ballparks that didn’t even have outfield fences. Lol
Speaking of ballparks, some argued that it was the bigger ballparks that Musial played in that inflated his triples. So, I decided to compare his numbers with other cards in the game who’s careers overlapped with Musial’s. This is what I found:
First, let’s start with Stan the Man himself.
He hit 177 triples in his career. He also stole 78 bases, with a 52% stolen base success rate. He has 47 speed in this game.
Jackie Robinson and Pee Wee Reese had far fewer triples than Musial, but stole way more bases at a way higher success rate. I will not argue that Musial should be as fast as they are. But....
Duke Snider hit 85 triples, and stole 99 bases at a 57% success rate. He has 69 speed, making him WAY faster than Musial. That isn’t right.
Monte Irvin only hit 31 triples. Now, he did steal bases successfully at a 75% rate, but he only stole 28 bases in his entire career. That means his skipper rarely sent him. He was probably pretty slow. In this game? 66 speed, almost 20 points higher than Musial. That isn’t right.
Ted Williams hit just 71 triples; more than 100 FEWER than Musial. He also stole fewer bases (71), at a slightly higher success rate (58%). He is faster than Musial in this game with 56 speed.
Minnie Minoso hit 83 triples. He did steal 205 bases, but his success rate was only 61%. That’s good, but is it 87 speed good?
When you compare Minoso with Al Kaline, though, you’re left with more questions than answers. Kaline hit nearly as many triples (75), and stole 137 bases AT A 67% SUCCESS RATE! That’s not too shabby. Yet Kaline has just 62 speed.
Larry Doby hit just 52 triples and stole just 47 bases at 56%. He has 64 speed and is faster than Musial. That isn’t right.
Eddie Mathews hit 72 triples, and stole fewer bases than Musial. Mathews is faster. That isn’t right.
Bill Mazeroski hit fewer triples and stole fewer bases. He is faster than Musial. That isn’t right.
Ernie Banks and Joe Torre are both faster than Musial in this game, yet COMBINED they have fewer triples AND fewer stolen bases than Musial. And they both got caught stealing more than they were successful (48% and 44%, respectively).
So if you think SDS has committed a grave injustice against Stan “The Man” Musial by giving him just 47 speed, like this post to make your voice heard.
We demand a boost of AT LEAST ten attribute points to his speed rating, in order to give credit where credit is due. Stan did not work that hard all those years only to be disrespected like this. He did not give his blood, sweat, and tears to entertain the baseball world, only to have the memory of his skill set so slandered by SDS.
It’s one thing to make a mistake. But when you know better, you do better.
SDS: Now you know better. Please do better.
(PS: This is all in good fun. I’m not really upset about it. I’m not even a Cardinals fan. I’m just saying...)
-
"We" is French but this is definitely a compelling argument you have here. I would agree he should be a bit higher.
-
Triples and stolen bases do not indicate speed. Yadier Molina stole 6 bases last year and 9 in 2017. You can be a smart base runner, you don't need speed to steal bases
Steals are more of a "you have to want to steal" kind of stat. It's all about the players motivation, players like Doby probably could have stolen more if they wanted to. It isn't always an indication of speed
Also I read up on the triples thing, apparently, Stan took more pride in hitting a triple then a home run, so that could also be chalked up to hussle, he loved getting triples.
I tried to find sprint speed, but couldn't find anything, so I'm not sure where Musial gets his speed from, but I don't think looking at triples or stolen bases reflect speed either, so idk what the answer is.
-
Some of the players you mentioned like Doby, Minnoso, and Irvin couldn’t compile stats because they spent years in the Negro leagues. But I do agree Stan should have more speed.
-
@eatyum said in We Demand Justice:
Triples and stolen bases do not indicate speed. Yadier Molina stole 6 bases last year and 9 in 2017. You can be a smart base runner, you don't need speed to steal bases
Steals are more of a "you have to want to steal" kind of stat. It's all about the players motivation, players like Doby probably could have stolen more if they wanted to. It isn't always an indication of speed
Also I read up on the triples thing, apparently, Stan took more pride in hitting a triple then a home run, so that could also be chalked up to hussle, he loved getting triples.
I tried to find sprint speed, but couldn't find anything, so I'm not sure where Musial gets his speed from, but I don't think looking at triples or stolen bases reflect speed either, so idk what the answer is.
Well, hustle should factor in to a player’s speed attribute. It does for pitchers. Or should I say, LACK of hustle. We know many pitchers are fast; some are really good athletes. But when they hit, the almost never run hard to avoid injury. That’s why so many of them have such low speed ratings.
But now that I bring up pitchers, how is it that Hal Newhouser has 43 speed and Stan The Man has 47?
It’s criminal, I tell you!!
-
@maurice91932 said in We Demand Justice:
He also stole 78 bases, with a 52% stolen base success rate.
That is a horrible SB percentage. Should have left that part out. Catchers that throw out 40% of baserunners are looked at as cannons behind home plate. The MLB avg for SB, today when it isnt a thing as much as it use to be, is still well over 70% last I looked.
Also 78 SB for a career isnt much at all.
Then you have to remember he has a 1 year card, not a sig or Prime card. So they cannot take his career numbers into account. Also for speed they use more actual speed metrics, not stats.
-
I thought this thread was for David Justice, now I'm just disappointed
-
@ChuckCLC said in We Demand Justice:
@maurice91932 said in We Demand Justice:
He also stole 78 bases, with a 52% stolen base success rate.
That is a horrible SB percentage. Should have left that part out. Catchers that throw out 40% of baserunners are looked at as cannons behind home plate. The MLB avg for SB, today when it isnt a thing as much as it use to be, is still well over 70% last I looked.
Also 78 SB for a career isnt much at all.
Then you have to remember he has a 1 year card, not a sig or Prime card. So they cannot take his career numbers into account. Also for speed they use more actual speed metrics, not stats.
Well, I wanted to be transparent. If I didn’t mention it, someone else would have brought it up.
I gotta say, though, I thought way more people would supportive of this.
I’m a little shocked that people don’t think hitting 177 career triples warrants more than 47 speed.
People are arguing that triples and stolen bases aren’t an indication of speed.
Okaaaayyyy....Then what else is SDS using to determine the speed of players from that long ago? I get we have all sorts of technology today that can track a player’s true speed (except for pitchers, apparently. They just make them all slow, even the one who played Wide Receiver at Notre Dame). But what are they using to determine a player’s speed from the 1950s and earlier?
-
@abbyspapa said in We Demand Justice:
I thought this thread was for David Justice, now I'm just disappointed
Same here, i thought the OP was demanding a David Justice card. I would have been completely on board.
-
@abbyspapa said in We Demand Justice:
I thought this thread was for David Justice, now I'm just disappointed
Oh. Sorry....
We demand David Justice, too!!!
-
Upvote because you did a bunch of research. We need more of this around here.
-
@maurice91932 said in We Demand Justice:
I’m a little shocked that people don’t think hitting 177 career triples warrants more than 47 speed.
There were a lot of ball parks that made triples much easier back then.
Lou Gehrig had 163 triples and 102 SB in just 17 years compared to Musials 22. And about 3000 less PA's. Gehrig at best would have 60-65 speed, but probably not even that.
For a guy who has a card in a year he had 7 SB's it sounds about right.
-
@ChuckCLC said in We Demand Justice:
@maurice91932 said in We Demand Justice:
I’m a little shocked that people don’t think hitting 177 career triples warrants more than 47 speed.
There were a lot of ball parks that made triples much easier back then.
Lou Gehrig had 163 triples and 102 SB in just 17 years compared to Musials 22. And about 3000 less PA's. Gehrig at best would have 60-65 speed, but probably not even that.
For a guy who has a card in a year he had 7 SB's it sounds about right.
Explain Rogers Hornsby’s speed.
Also, Gehrig may have stole 102 bases, but he was caught 100 times. His speed was 64 last year.
So Gehrig, who retired before Stan’s professional career began, presumably played in even more triple-friendly parks. And his stolen base percentage is about the same.
Why is he so much faster than Musial?
-
@maurice91932 said in We Demand Justice:
@ChuckCLC said in We Demand Justice:
@maurice91932 said in We Demand Justice:
I’m a little shocked that people don’t think hitting 177 career triples warrants more than 47 speed.
There were a lot of ball parks that made triples much easier back then.
Lou Gehrig had 163 triples and 102 SB in just 17 years compared to Musials 22. And about 3000 less PA's. Gehrig at best would have 60-65 speed, but probably not even that.
For a guy who has a card in a year he had 7 SB's it sounds about right.
Explain Rogers Hornsby’s speed.
He was fast lol. IDK, I know they have some sort of metric. They arent just going back and looking at hitting stats for speed. I am sure they had stop watches back then and people knew who were fast and who wasnt. Not saying they get this stuff 100% correct, I am sure they dont, but I am just saying I dont think they did a crime with Musials 1948 season.
-
@ChuckCLC said in We Demand Justice:
@maurice91932 said in We Demand Justice:
I’m a little shocked that people don’t think hitting 177 career triples warrants more than 47 speed.
There were a lot of ball parks that made triples much easier back then.
Lou Gehrig had 163 triples and 102 SB in just 17 years compared to Musials 22. And about 3000 less PA's. Gehrig at best would have 60-65 speed, but probably not even that.
For a guy who has a card in a year he had 7 SB's it sounds about right.
So are we using stolen base numbers to determine speed or not? You argued it was some other metric—not the numbers—yet you’re justifying his low rating by citing his 7 stolen bags. Doesn’t seem fair.
I’m not trying to fight with you or anything. I’m enjoying our conversation.
-
@maurice91932 said in We Demand Justice:
@ChuckCLC said in We Demand Justice:
@maurice91932 said in We Demand Justice:
I’m a little shocked that people don’t think hitting 177 career triples warrants more than 47 speed.
There were a lot of ball parks that made triples much easier back then.
Lou Gehrig had 163 triples and 102 SB in just 17 years compared to Musials 22. And about 3000 less PA's. Gehrig at best would have 60-65 speed, but probably not even that.
For a guy who has a card in a year he had 7 SB's it sounds about right.
So are we using stolen base numbers to determine speed or not? You argued it was some other metric—not the numbers—yet you’re justifying his low rating by citing his 7 stolen bags. Doesn’t seem fair.
I’m not trying to fight with you or anything. I’m enjoying our conversation.
Lol, na it is cool.
No I said I am sure they use some other metric. There has to be some record of players speed from home plate to first base type of thing. Even in LL and HS we did those times.
-
@ChuckCLC said in We Demand Justice:
@maurice91932 said in We Demand Justice:
@ChuckCLC said in We Demand Justice:
@maurice91932 said in We Demand Justice:
I’m a little shocked that people don’t think hitting 177 career triples warrants more than 47 speed.
There were a lot of ball parks that made triples much easier back then.
Lou Gehrig had 163 triples and 102 SB in just 17 years compared to Musials 22. And about 3000 less PA's. Gehrig at best would have 60-65 speed, but probably not even that.
For a guy who has a card in a year he had 7 SB's it sounds about right.
So are we using stolen base numbers to determine speed or not? You argued it was some other metric—not the numbers—yet you’re justifying his low rating by citing his 7 stolen bags. Doesn’t seem fair.
I’m not trying to fight with you or anything. I’m enjoying our conversation.
Lol, na it is cool.
No I said I am sure they use some other metric. There has to be some record of players speed from home plate to first base type of thing. Even in LL and HS we did those times.
Fair enough.
Well Devs, feel free to jump in and let us know how you are determining a player’s speed.
Perhaps if it was a Sig card he’d be faster. But in 1948 Stan Musial was in his prime. He led the majors in triples that year. One of three years that he did so, and one in five in which he led the NL.
I want to know why he’s a 47 when his numbers are better or equal to players who are faster than him.
I mean, what did you use to determine that Ernie Banks and Joe Torre were both faster than Stan Musial?
-
@maurice91932 said in We Demand Justice:
I want to know why he’s a 47 when his numbers are better or equal to players who are faster than him.
Wish I could give you a real answer.
But here is a comparison. Jeff Bagwell could swipe some bags back in his day, actually stole 30 or more a couple times. And was one of the best ever at running the bases, first to 3rd when others wouldnt, stretching singles into doubles ect. But I specifically remember him when asked about speed once saying he was only faster than 3 guys on the team. Dont remember who they were, but he was serious. If they had a foot race he admitted to being one of the slowest guys on th e team. But he was a very smart baserunner therefore could swipe bags and get the extra bases. That is why you arent gonna see Bagwell with any 80+ speed cards despite stealing a good amount of bases.
-
@ChuckCLC said in We Demand Justice:
@maurice91932 said in We Demand Justice:
I want to know why he’s a 47 when his numbers are better or equal to players who are faster than him.
Wish I could give you a real answer.
But here is a comparison. Jeff Bagwell could swipe some bags back in his day, actually stole 30 or more a couple times. And was one of the best ever at running the bases, first to 3rd when others wouldnt, stretching singles into doubles ect. But I specifically remember him when asked about speed once saying he was only faster than 3 guys on the team. Dont remember who they were, but he was serious. If they had a foot race he admitted to being one of the slowest guys on th e team. But he was a very smart baserunner therefore could swipe bags and get the extra bases. That is why you arent gonna see Bagwell with any 80+ speed cards despite stealing a good amount of bases.
They gave Bagwell 61 speed. Not too bad. He stole over 200 bases in his career, though. Maybe he should be faster, too.
And if he really was slow, yet his smarts enabled him to push singles into doubles and doubles into triples, surely it was those same smarts that propelled Musial to 177 career three-baggers.
But thanks, Chuck. You’ve brought up some interesting points. I’m scratching my head even more now trying to figure out how they determine a player’s attributes, especially speed.
-
@maurice91932 said in We Demand Justice:
And if he really was slow, yet his smarts enabled him to push singles into doubles and doubles into triples, surely it was those same smarts that propelled Musial to 177 career three-baggers.
I believe that is what the "stealing" and "baserunning" attributes are for though. I am not sure what they gave Musial for that.
