completely off topic but...
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Nope and nope to the steroid users. Anybody stealing signs is fine.
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@Untchable704 said in completely off topic but...:
Nope and nope to the steroid users. Anybody stealing signs is fine.
Knowing what pitch is coming gives a much bigger advantage than steroids.
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@Some_Schmuck_22 said in completely off topic but...:
He's in the WWE HoF and that is all he deserves for the time being.
I think I even may be in the WWE HoF. I did go to a few events in the early 2000's. I think that qualifies.
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My understanding is he gambled while managing, not while playing. Pete Rose is not a hall of fame calibre manager, he is a hall of fame calibre player.
I understand the MLB ban as they have clearly defined rules, but in my opinion Cooperstown upholds that ruling in regards to hall of fame induction wrongfully. The MLB doesn't own nor does it have any official power in regards to the hall of fame. They are free to induct whomever they deem fit.
I'd like to see Pete Rose in the hall of fame one day. It would be nice if he could see it too. The man lives for baseball, and is arguably one of the greatest players of all time. He deserves his name enshrined with the other greats of the game.
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@Untchable704 said in completely off topic but...:
Nope and nope to the steroid users. Anybody stealing signs is fine.
There are already players in that are rumored to have used PEDs. Bagwell and Pudge being the most prominent.
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@Scarletgospel said in completely off topic but...:
Yes, as should other guys like Bonds. The hall will forever be incomplete without the games all time hits leader and home run hitter.
And for those that say Bonds shouldn't get in, there are quite a number of juicers, drug takers and alcoholics in the hall.
Hall of Fame inductance is decided by the BBWAA (Baseball Writer’s Association of America). MVP voting is also conducted by the BBWAA.
In 2003, Barry Bonds testified in front of grand jury regarding his involvement with BALCO and PED usage. The BBWAA was aware of this as they wrote extensively about the situation and investigated it thoroughly.
In 2004, Barry Bonds was voted NL MVP.......by the BBWAA......with a 91% vote share.
In summation, the BBWAA knew in 2003 that Barry Bonds was a PED user, with that knowledge in mind, determined he was the MVP in 2004, and then decided to punish him a few years later when determining if he should be inducted into the Hall of Fame.
The BBWAA celebrated and rewarded Bonds fully knowing that he was a PED user, but then acted outraged and disgusted about it a few years later. The hypocrisy of the BBWAA is unfathomable and the fact Bonds isn’t in the Hall is ridiculous.
Cheating in baseball has been around since the first inning ever played. The history of doping is a long one and there are plenty of Hall of Famers already attached to amphetamine use, or whatever advantages were available at the time. The fact remains that the advantages available to Barry Bonds were better than those available to players 30 years prior, and his skill level was so high that his enhanced performance was unlike anything we’d ever seen.
As with Rose, put Bonds in. Tell the whole story. It’s fascinating. People act as if it’s a stain on the Hall to include these players and their stories. Ignoring history in an establishment designed to celebrate and preserve history is ridiculous. It’s especially ridiculous when you consider that it’s the writers that are leaving Bond out. They certainly wrote about him and celebrated him an awful lot that it seems unfathomable that they don’t think his history warrants inclusion.
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@Untchable704 said in completely off topic but...:
Nope and nope to the steroid users. Anybody stealing signs is fine.
For what it’s worth, multiple current and former MLB pitchers have gone on record saying they’d rather face a PED user than a batter who knows what pitch is coming.
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@EvylShaun said in completely off topic but...:
My understanding is he gambled while managing, not while playing. Pete Rose is not a hall of fame calibre manager, he is a hall of fame calibre player.
I feel like that’s kinda splitting hairs. Gambling is gambling. He was putting on an MLB uniform and accepting MLB paychecks. Also, I think he was a player-manager for a while, too, so it’s possible he was still playing.
Either way, there has never been any speculation that he bet against his own team, so I don’t really see the difference. Everyone knew that gambling meant a lifetime ban — and that went for managers as well as players.
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@DriveByTrucker17 said in completely off topic but...:
@Untchable704 said in completely off topic but...:
Nope and nope to the steroid users. Anybody stealing signs is fine.
Knowing what pitch is coming gives a much bigger advantage than steroids.
The stats say that isn’t true eh.
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@ilvmyjeep said in completely off topic but...:
@Untchable704 said in completely off topic but...:
Nope and nope to the steroid users. Anybody stealing signs is fine.
For what it’s worth, multiple current and former MLB pitchers have gone on record saying they’d rather face a PED user than a batter who knows what pitch is coming.
Easy for these guys to say that now. But nobody hitting 70 homeruns and they’re almost all stealing signs now.
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great post. @ilvmyjeep
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@Untchable704 said in completely off topic but...:
@ilvmyjeep said in completely off topic but...:
@Untchable704 said in completely off topic but...:
Nope and nope to the steroid users. Anybody stealing signs is fine.
For what it’s worth, multiple current and former MLB pitchers have gone on record saying they’d rather face a PED user than a batter who knows what pitch is coming.
Easy for these guys to say that now. But nobody hitting 70 homeruns and they’re almost all stealing signs now.
I think the difference is because it’s a generic question not pertaining to a specific player. It’s not asking if you’d rather face the Astros knowing what’s coming or Barry Bonds on PEDs. It’s asking if you’d rather face the Astros knowing what’s coming or the Astros on PEDs. Or face Barry Bonds knowing what’s coming or Barry Bonds on PEDs.
You can fool a guy on PEDs with varying speed/location or flat out beat him with your pitch easier than you can fool someone that knows what is coming.
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@Untchable704 said in completely off topic but...:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in completely off topic but...:
@Untchable704 said in completely off topic but...:
Nope and nope to the steroid users. Anybody stealing signs is fine.
Knowing what pitch is coming gives a much bigger advantage than steroids.
The stats say that isn’t true eh.
Bonds, arod, McGwire, etc., were all better than any astros player before using roids. You still have to be good enough to hit when using roids. If I know a fastball is guaranteed to be coming, it gets much easier. MLB players have said this as well.
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@DriveByTrucker17 said in completely off topic but...:
@Untchable704 said in completely off topic but...:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in completely off topic but...:
@Untchable704 said in completely off topic but...:
Nope and nope to the steroid users. Anybody stealing signs is fine.
Knowing what pitch is coming gives a much bigger advantage than steroids.
The stats say that isn’t true eh.
Bonds, arod, McGwire, etc., were all better than any astros player before using roids. You still have to be good enough to hit when using roids. If I know a fastball is guaranteed to be coming, it gets much easier. MLB players have said this as well.
It’s called recency bias. Nothing more.
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@Untchable704 said in completely off topic but...:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in completely off topic but...:
@Untchable704 said in completely off topic but...:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in completely off topic but...:
@Untchable704 said in completely off topic but...:
Nope and nope to the steroid users. Anybody stealing signs is fine.
Knowing what pitch is coming gives a much bigger advantage than steroids.
The stats say that isn’t true eh.
Bonds, arod, McGwire, etc., were all better than any astros player before using roids. You still have to be good enough to hit when using roids. If I know a fastball is guaranteed to be coming, it gets much easier. MLB players have said this as well.
It’s called recency bias. Nothing more.
It’s not recency bias. It’s a situational difference. Sign stealing happens in situations throughout the season. Sometimes signs can be stolen, sometimes they can’t. PEDs usage is done throughout the whole season.
Think of it in a vacuum. If a player knew what pitch was coming every single time, in every single at bat, for the whole season, that player would out perform the same version of that player on PEDs without the knowledge of what pitch was coming.
Look at the results the Astros posted when Glasnow was tipping his pitches. Those results were far greater than the results of a PED user. The difference is that the effects only lasted a few innings because Glasnow was pulled. As soon as the Astros didn’t know what pitch was coming, they didn’t have the same success. PED benefits wouldn’t stop because of a pitching change.
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rose shouldn't be in the hall while he's alive especially if the newish rumor of him corking his bats is true. I have less of a problem with steroid era guys mostly because we can't pretend that entire era of baseball never happened we just make some note of it such as the dead ball era. Sign stealing to me is fine if the players were the ones who did it truly on their own ie runner on 2nd can decode the catchers signs but if you need the help of a nerd in the front office or video room he's not in uniform and should honestly not be in the stadium since he can do his job from his living room the day after
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You know, if he hadn't acted like such an indignant [censored] for the last 30 years he would have had a much better chance of getting in.
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@SchnauzerFace said in completely off topic but...:
@EvylShaun said in completely off topic but...:
My understanding is he gambled while managing, not while playing. Pete Rose is not a hall of fame calibre manager, he is a hall of fame calibre player.
I feel like that’s kinda splitting hairs.
That's exactly what it is. Lol. It's more of a debate topic than anything else. It is actually the way I feel about it however. If he were a hall of fame manager like Larussa, Sparky, or Torre maybe. But let's be honest, the man is one of the greatest of all time, and a ban on MLB affiliation has no bearing on his status within the game as a whole.
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Did Rose ever bet against his own team? If not, then I see no reason to keep him out. Betting against yourself clearly provides a motive to intentionally do worse, and there should be consequences for that. Betting on your own team only provides more motivation to do what you go out to do every game: Win. Betting on games you aren't involved in is perfectly fine
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@ryansitko11 said in completely off topic but...:
Did Rose ever bet against his own team? If not, then I see no reason to keep him out. Betting against yourself clearly provides a motive to intentionally do worse, and there should be consequences for that. Betting on your own team only provides more motivation to do what you go out to do every game: Win. Betting on games you aren't involved in is perfectly fine
Betting on games you aren’t involved is not perfectly fine when the league has specifically said ANY gambling on games will result in a lifetime ban — period.
Steve Stone (White Sox announcer) had a great point about this: if Pete bet on his team 4 nights in a row, what message does that send his bookie when he doesn’t bet on the 5th night? The manager is going to have inside info (i.e. the closer has a tummy ache, the DH has a strained bicep, the Star outfielder is going to get a rest day, etc etc), and that kind of garbage needs to stay far, far away from unsavory gambling types. Further, if you look way way way back in baseball history (watch the Ken Burns doc), the sport has a long, disturbing early history with gambling and fixing games. It’s best to keep players and managers as far, far away from gambling and bookies (and potentially organized crime) as humanly possible.
