Bryce Harper
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@PriorFir4383355_XBL said in Bryce Harper:
@SaveFarris_PSN said in Bryce Harper:
@The_Joneser_PSN said in Bryce Harper:
The difference is this: if you aren't among the top payrolls in the game, you're going to need something of a miracle to win.
Probably not the best time to make this argument, what with 2 of the best records in baseball currently siting in the Bottom 12 of payrolls (Mil, DET)
Sure, small market teams can overspend and take a shot at glory, and then they have to tear down and remain in dismal straits for years... but they can't do it without entering that upper echelon of spending.
Oh no, we’ve incentivized teams to spend money and try. THE HORROR!!
The owners are multi-billionaires. Every single owner can afford to put together a playoff roster every single year. If they don’t, they are [bodily function]-ing on the fans.
And if they really truly can’t afford a roster? They should be forced to sell to someone who will.
Consider that since the NFL implemented the cap, champions through 2023 broke down thusly (I didn't have easy access to the last 2 years and didn't care to spend the time): 12 champions ranked in the top 10 in cap spending, 9 champions were in the middle 10, and 8 winners were in the bottom 10.
The delta between top and bottom payrolls in the NFL is next to nothing and thus irrelevant to MLB.
OK, your hard views are your own, but points to ponder.
First, Detroit is by no means a small market team. It is one of the largest markets in the United States.
It's definitely one of the Top 30 markets! But one of the largest markets in MLB, it is not.If the Tigers are near the bottom of payroll, it is only because the owners want it that way.
Yes. That's my point. They have the capacity to spend. They don't. A salary cap wouldn't force the Tigers to spend more. It'd only force other teams to spend less. Spread the misery, as it were.
See my earlier point about the owner of the A's pocketing the luxury tax money that MLB pays his team, vice use it to sign free agents. The A's owner isn't alone, but he is likely the single worst offender and that has most owners livid at him. A salary floor solves that problem -- something the MLBPA needs to comprehend!
Does it though? What is more likely? Under a salary cap, the A's of the world...
A. actually compete for top-tier free agents.
B. load up on high-priced low-ceiling free agents (just enough Luis Severinos and Miguel Andujars to hit the floor)Second, the comparison between the NFL and MLB is precisely relevant, and to discount it simply means you are not wiling to read the spreadsheet.
Compare the difference between a Tier 1 and Tier 3 NFL team (about $50 million) and a Tier I and Tier 3 MLB team ($130 million). You can't compare winning %s across the tiers because the lower MLB tiers aren't playing.
Third, your point about being forced to sell the team if they cannot afford to swim with the big market teams like the Mets, Dodgers, Yankees, Cubs, and Angels truly captures the point of view of the player agents and the players and this is precisely why the owners are going to play hardball like never before seen -- just to break MLB of that self-destructive mindset. Again, the owners appear willing to negotiate a salary floor to ensure smaller market teams can compete, but also mandates that they try to.
Just like they did in 1994, and 1989, and 1982 ...
Owners will never accept a hard floor regardless of whether it comes with a cap. And even if a soft floor is passed, there's enough ways around it.
Teams that don't want to invest in players won't. And those teams, not the ones that spend, are what's hurting MLB.
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@LHUBison58_XBL said in Bryce Harper:
I’m a pirates fan, yes I know our owner is cheap, yes I agree with a lot of those points. However, there is zero chance of Pittsburgh consistently being able to field a winning team in this system.
The Pirates owner is richer than the Steeler's owner. And if you can't make money with PNC Park, you need to get out of the money making business.
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Here is a basic explanation of how a 51/49 players/owners cap would work
Element
Value
Player Revenue Share
49% of BRR
Cap Ceiling (est.)
~$196 million
Cap Floor
~$147 million (75% of cap)
Max Player Salary
~$39.2 million (20%)
Contract Limits
5–7 years, AAV = cap hit
Service Time Reform
FA at 5 yrs, arb at 2 yrs
Hard Cap
Yes, no exceptions
Penalties
Picks, fines, revenueAnd there will always be teams looking to pick up contracts to reach the floor. But the NHL has shown for two decades that these are rare and typically don’t last long. I do thing the A’s of he world would compete for players under a cap system. Do you think Sid Crosby and Evgeni Malkin could ever remain in Pittsburgh without a cap?
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@SaveFarris_PSN said in Bryce Harper:
@LHUBison58_XBL said in Bryce Harper:
I’m a pirates fan, yes I know our owner is cheap, yes I agree with a lot of those points. However, there is zero chance of Pittsburgh consistently being able to field a winning team in this system.
The Pirates owner is richer than the Steeler's owner. And if you can't make money with PNC Park, you need to get out of the money making business.
Nutting might be, but has had to take out loans the past five years to keep the team afloat. The Rooney are capitalized and don’t need to worry about cash flow as much because their revenue sharing in 2024 was $389 million while the cap ceiling was $255 million. Nutting can field the team he has and I really can’t blame him for being financially responsible and not spending money he doesn’t have. That’s poor business. When we had our run in the early 2010s they printed money. But that run came
to an end because they couldn’t afford to maintain it.A floor, a cap, and greater revenue sharing fixes this. The city has winners and supports our teams. We can point to the Steelers and Pens and see what a cap system can do. That’s all we ask is for a level playing field.
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Oh, you stated early that you “can guarantee you’ve spent more time on this than me” please elaborate for me. I’ve attended uni classes in labor relations in MLB and this exact subject was one of our final projects. So please share your Reddit knowledge with us.
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@SaveFarris_PSN said in Bryce Harper:
The Brewers are a Top 10 Payroll team? You sure?!?
The Cubs are. But, yes, I missed that the Brewers were tied with them with a quick glance. Let's see where they end up when the playoff picture settles out, and if things line up with highest spenders on top. Again.
Yes. If you're an owner and you can't afford to field a competitive team, you shouldn't be an owner.
That's a simpleton's take. But if you need to feel like you're an authority on the subject with your vast experience, you go right ahead.
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@The_Joneser_PSN I still don’t hear a single reason for why a cap system scares him. Maybe it’s what the salary cap has done to the cowboys that scares him.
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One last thing I’ll post here and I’m done on the subject; The owners set the labor rules. Not the other way around.
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@LHUBison58_XBL said in Bryce Harper:
One last thing I’ll post here and I’m donr on the subject; The owners set the labor rules. Not the other way around.
That's not entirely true. Thanks to collective bargaining, owners can't just carte blance' lay down whatever rules they want. Rules have to be agreed upon by both parties.
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@SaveFarris_PSN not when this CBA is complete. You seriously don’t want to get into labor law with me. Lol
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@LHUBison58_XBL said in Bryce Harper:
@The_Joneser_PSN I still don’t hear a single reason for why a cap system scares him. Maybe it’s what the salary cap has done to the cowboys that scares him.
"Scare?"
Caps would be bad for baseball and the game would suffer. Teams would be forbidden to exceed certain thresholds even if they wanted to and could afford to. And caps on individual players prevents players worthy of gargantuan contracts (like Ohtani) from cashing in. Sorry, but I'd rather see Ohtani get rich, not Mark Walter.
Caps also prevent dynasties. Was the NFL better off that the Chiefs had to sell off parts in order to keep Mahomes? Is the NBA better off because the Spurs had to keep dumping players? I know you might think dynasties suck if you're on the wrong end of them, but I prefer baseball to the best and the strongest it can possibly be. And forcing whoever wins the WS to immediately sell everyone off in order to get back under the cap instead of trying to make history diminishes the game.
And the Cowboys died to me on February 25, 1989.
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@LHUBison58_XBL said in Bryce Harper:
@SaveFarris_PSN not when this CBA is complete. You seriously don’t want to get into labor law with me. Lol
What does the 'B' stand for? Asking for a friend...
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Collective Bargaining Agreement
In essence it is a tort contract specifying the nature of such things as pay, benefits, work conditions, and work rules.
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@LHUBison58_XBL said in Bryce Harper:
@SaveFarris_PSN said in Bryce Harper:
@PriorFir4383355_XBL said in Bryce Harper:
Take a look at it from how many small market teams won the WS since 2000. That list was and remains one team -- Kansas City and that was back in 2015. Since then, the closest WS champion to a small market was Houston and that's not a small market as Houston is one of the largest markets in the nation.
Number of teams in US Top 10 Markets:
Area---MLB---NFL---NBA
NYC 2 2 2
LA 2 2 2
CHI 2 1 1
DFW 1 1 1
PHI 1 1 1
HOU 1 1 1
ATL 1 1 1
DC 2 1 1
BOS 1 1 1
SF 2 1 1Total 15 12 12
NFL and NBA have more smaller markets winning because they have more smaller market teams.
Easier to define. No team not in the top quarter of payroll has won a World Series in 25+ years.
Categorically false. CWS won in 2005 with the 12th highest payroll, not top quarter. 2003 Marlins won and were 24th. 2002 Angels were 15th highest. 2015 Royals were 17th. Astros were 17th highest in 2017. Just to name a few.
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@PriorFir4383355_XBL said in Bryce Harper:
Collective Bargaining Agreement
In essence it is a tort contract specifying the nature of such things as pay, benefits, work conditions, and work rules.
Not according to our friend @LHUBison58_XBL. He says there's no bargaining and the owners get to decide unilaterally.
And he teaches a class!
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@whiplash0013_PSN said in Bryce Harper:
@LHUBison58_XBL said in Bryce Harper:
@SaveFarris_PSN said in Bryce Harper:
@PriorFir4383355_XBL said in Bryce Harper:
Take a look at it from how many small market teams won the WS since 2000. That list was and remains one team -- Kansas City and that was back in 2015. Since then, the closest WS champion to a small market was Houston and that's not a small market as Houston is one of the largest markets in the nation.
Number of teams in US Top 10 Markets:
Area---MLB---NFL---NBA
NYC 2 2 2
LA 2 2 2
CHI 2 1 1
DFW 1 1 1
PHI 1 1 1
HOU 1 1 1
ATL 1 1 1
DC 2 1 1
BOS 1 1 1
SF 2 1 1Total 15 12 12
NFL and NBA have more smaller markets winning because they have more smaller market teams.
Easier to define. No team not in the top quarter of payroll has won a World Series in 25+ years.
Categorically false. CWS won in 2005 with the 12th highest payroll, not top quarter. 2003 Marlins won and were 24th. 2002 Angels were 15th highest. 2015 Royals were 17th. Astros were 17th highest in 2017. Just to name a few.
Yep, and the Marlins and White Sox both very quickly traded away their core talent when it neared free agency or simply let them sign elsewhere. The Angels are also one of the largest market teams in MLB. So they had the money to sign free agents and keep their core talent when it reached free agency. The Astros being in Houston was likewise in a large market and did the same.
A salary floor would have prevented the Marlins and White Sox from selling off their core talent because they would have been forced to pay to keep them on the team.
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You're saying Chicago and Miami aren't big enough markets?
And that the NFL's salary floor prevented the Chiefs from losing...
Morris Clayborn
Terrell Suggs
LeShawn McCoy
Spencer Ware
LeVeon Bell
Sammy Watkins
Melvin Ingram
Kyle Long
Tyrann Mathieu
Alex Okafor
DeMarcus Robinson
Orlando Brown
JuJuSmith Shuster
Tyreke Hill -
- the NFL has 17 games vs 162 to fill stadiums;
- the NFL has bonkers national TV deals;
- NFL contracts are not guaranteed; guys get thrown away with no benefits and life altering disabilities;
- the NFL has the weakest union in pro sports; remember that Gamble line about making sure Goodell had Upshaw’s leash when he succeeded Tagliabue?
- the cap hasn’t made the NHL better; in fact, many teams abused the floor with bogus LTIR contracts to pad their payroll in cap money, not real money;
The players are the product, not the owners. People pay to see Harper, not the owner. This ain’t a factory where you can replace most jobs and keep people in indentured servitude and close up shop and move to Asia as soon as the unions show up.
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"Good News Kids! The Bulls just finished their 3-peat. Thanks to the NBA's salary floor, we can keep Scottie Pippin, Steve Kerr, Luc Longley and Dennis Rodman!" -- @PriorFir4383355_XBL in the fall of 1998.
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@yankblan_PSN said in Bryce Harper:
The players are the product, not the owners. People pay to see Harper, not the owner.
This.
All Day.
Every Day.But that I can Heart it only once.
