Joe Carter most underrated player
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:
I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:
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He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.
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He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.
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Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.
Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.
Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.
I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.
We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.
I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.
Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.
You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter
Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close
You are right lol. Its not close.
Full seasons only
Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802
Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824
You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.
Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived
OPS is what everyone is using lmao. It shows how often you are in base and how often you slug. Its literally the best stat to show how good a hitter is. And joe effing carter never once OPSed over 850.
Bro. Go look at the last 5 world series winners and where they ranked in OPS. Im not sure why you just used a team with zero budget to prove a point lmao.
The Astros Tank one of those WS by cheating and it is possible so did the RedSox
besides the point. Nats were sixth last year .houston was first. The year before. Boston was first, dodgers were third. 2017 -astros first. 2016- cubs third indians 5th.
Turns out the best teams have the best OPS! how crazy is it that the best teams get on base and hit for power!!!! CRAZYYYYYYY
Im genuinely curious as to who you think is the best hitter of all time, no argument, just wondering you think it is
Modern era would be Barry bonds and Mike trout
Nah I’m not talking era, best of all time
Barry bonds or mike trout.
Neither one of those guys ever hit over .400
Uh so lmao?
You said hitter the best hitters ever so year the best are who over .400. The best hitter in the last 40 years I would say Tony Gywnn
You would rather have tony gwynn on your team than barry bonds hahahahahaha. Who gives a flying [censored] about 400. That does not mean literally anything. If you would take tony gwynn over trout or bonds then you are just a [censored] dude.
That was not the question!!!!!!!!
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Hitting is more than just Batting Average. When it comes to "Bat to ball Skills", I would agree that Tony Gwynn is Superior to Barry Bonds. But as an overall hitter, Barry was superior and it wasn't even close. He could hit for average, he could hit for power, he had arguably the best eyes in the history of baseball, and he rarely missed the ball when he did swing. Gwynn was better at hitting for average and not missing when he swung, but that's about it when it comes to standing in the Batter's Box
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Wonka3399 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Wonka3399 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:
I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:
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He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.
-
He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.
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Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.
Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.
Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.
I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.
We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.
I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.
Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.
You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter
Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close
You are right lol. Its not close.
Full seasons only
Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802
Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824
You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.
Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived
OPS is what everyone is using lmao. It shows how often you are in base and how often you slug. Its literally the best stat to show how good a hitter is. And joe effing carter never once OPSed over 850.
Bro. Go look at the last 5 world series winners and where they ranked in OPS. Im not sure why you just used a team with zero budget to prove a point lmao.
The Astros Tank one of those WS by cheating and it is possible so did the RedSox
besides the point. Nats were sixth last year .houston was first. The year before. Boston was first, dodgers were third. 2017 -astros first. 2016- cubs third indians 5th.
Turns out the best teams have the best OPS! how crazy is it that the best teams get on base and hit for power!!!! CRAZYYYYYYY
Im genuinely curious as to who you think is the best hitter of all time, no argument, just wondering you think it is
Modern era would be Barry bonds and Mike trout
Nah I’m not talking era, best of all time
Barry bonds or mike trout.
Neither one of those guys ever hit over .400
Uh so lmao?
You said hitter the best hitters ever so year the best are who over .400. The best hitter in the last 40 years I would say Tony Gywnn
You would rather have tony gwynn on your team than barry bonds hahahahahaha. Who gives a flying [censored] about 400. That does not mean literally anything. If you would take tony gwynn over trout or bonds then you are just a [censored] dude.
Modern Era I would take Bonds for a middle of the lineup hitter over .300 hitter and the power it is not even close
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:
I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:
-
He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.
-
He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.
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Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.
Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.
Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.
I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.
We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.
I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.
Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.
You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter
Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close
You are right lol. Its not close.
Full seasons only
Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802
Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824
You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.
Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived
Furthermore nobody talked about OPS until the last 15 years. When Joe Carter was in his prime, players weren't told that "a walk is as good as a hit" unless there was nobody on base. The best hitter, arguably, in the AL in the late 80's was Kirby Puckett, a notoriously free swinger. Tony Gwynn didn't walk either. Or Ryne Sandberg...
Using OPS to compare players across eras is like using QB rating to say that Tony Romo was better than Johnny Unitas. Johnny U wasn't held to that standard, rules were different, etc.
This entire thread basically comes down to a simple point - in his day Joe Carter was considered a great player. In their day, guys like Neil Walker, Ryan Zimmerman, and others I've seen referenced were/are not, and using 2020 statistical models, which are flawed to begin with, to evaluate the greatness of past players just doesn't make sense period.
Those three guys all still had a better OPS than carter. tony was at 850 as a slap hitter. Very good. Sandberg had a 340 on base, tony was almost at 390. Just a tad better than 305.
I dont get how power and on base numbers cant be used to value Hitters throughout history. But sure.
Neil walker no. But zim was pretty [censored] good for awhile. He just played on bad Nats teams.
Once again not sure how power and on base is flawed when judging a hitter.
WAR and the like are flawed because they take each individual game/situation out of their proper context, and place seasons in computers as if they're played that way. They aren't.
Also, my point was you cannot use the statistics we use today to evaluate hitters from the past. They played in an era when power hitters like Joe Carter were "paid to hit homeruns", strikeouts were embarrassing, and the batting title was the most prestigious individual achievement in baseball after MVPs. That's the world Joe Carter played in.
Guys like Ryan Zimmerman play in an era where walks are considered the same as hits, strikeouts are just another out, and OBP trumps BA. Completely different methodology, which trickles all the way down to the way the players build their swing techniques.
Again, football is a good comparison. Today we judge QBs by QB rating. Johnny Unitas had a career QB rating of 78, a stat that nobody used when he played. Every single QB had a rating higher than his career rating last season. Are we then to say that every single QB playing today is greater than Johnny Unitas?
That's why the only thing that makes sense is to take players within the context of when they played, because the game changes completely over time - and baseball has changed more in the last 15 years than it changed in the 100 years that came before it.
The best players have the best WAR. Doesnt seem very flawed.
Hitting for power and getting on base has always mattered.
Yeah every QB today is better than johnny unitas.
Number 1 is dumb because every single website/stat publication has a different calculation for WAR...so that in and of itself makes it scientifically off.
Number 2 is dumb because players were taught to hit aggressively not to work counts/draw walks/get to the bullpen. That's why it was so innovative when the Yankees, Red Sox, and A's began using that strategy and winning with it. That's where moneyball came from for God's sake.
If you think that every QB playing today is greater than Johnny Unitas was than you know less about football than you seem to about baseball.
You're just trolling at this point.
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@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Hitting is more than just Batting Average. When it comes to "Bat to ball Skills", I would agree that Tony Gwynn is Superior to Barry Bonds. But as an overall hitter, Barry was superior and it wasn't even close. He could hit for average, he could hit for power, he had arguably the best eyes in the history of baseball, and he rarely missed the ball when he did swing. Gwynn was better at hitting for average and not missing when he swung, but that's about it when it comes to standing in the Batter's Box
I agree with this
I personally would take Ty Cobb over any player in the History of Baseball
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@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Hitting is more than just Batting Average. When it comes to "Bat to ball Skills", I would agree that Tony Gwynn is Superior to Barry Bonds. But as an overall hitter, Barry was superior and it wasn't even close. He could hit for average, he could hit for power, he had arguably the best eyes in the history of baseball, and he rarely missed the ball when he did swing. Gwynn was better at hitting for average and not missing when he swung, but that's about it when it comes to standing in the Batter's Box
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:
I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:
-
He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.
-
He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.
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Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.
Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.
Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.
I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.
We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.
I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.
Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.
You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter
Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close
You are right lol. Its not close.
Full seasons only
Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802
Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824
You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.
Oh, lol... I forgot what type of moron I was talking to. You only look at one cherry picked stat. I think also got hit by pitch more
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@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
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Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:
I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:
-
He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.
-
He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.
-
Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.
Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.
Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.
I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.
We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.
I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.
Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.
You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter
Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close
You are right lol. Its not close.
Full seasons only
Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802
Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824
You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.
Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived
Furthermore nobody talked about OPS until the last 15 years. When Joe Carter was in his prime, players weren't told that "a walk is as good as a hit" unless there was nobody on base. The best hitter, arguably, in the AL in the late 80's was Kirby Puckett, a notoriously free swinger. Tony Gwynn didn't walk either. Or Ryne Sandberg...
Using OPS to compare players across eras is like using QB rating to say that Tony Romo was better than Johnny Unitas. Johnny U wasn't held to that standard, rules were different, etc.
This entire thread basically comes down to a simple point - in his day Joe Carter was considered a great player. In their day, guys like Neil Walker, Ryan Zimmerman, and others I've seen referenced were/are not, and using 2020 statistical models, which are flawed to begin with, to evaluate the greatness of past players just doesn't make sense period.
Those three guys all still had a better OPS than carter. tony was at 850 as a slap hitter. Very good. Sandberg had a 340 on base, tony was almost at 390. Just a tad better than 305.
I dont get how power and on base numbers cant be used to value Hitters throughout history. But sure.
Neil walker no. But zim was pretty [censored] good for awhile. He just played on bad Nats teams.
Once again not sure how power and on base is flawed when judging a hitter.
WAR and the like are flawed because they take each individual game/situation out of their proper context, and place seasons in computers as if they're played that way. They aren't.
Also, my point was you cannot use the statistics we use today to evaluate hitters from the past. They played in an era when power hitters like Joe Carter were "paid to hit homeruns", strikeouts were embarrassing, and the batting title was the most prestigious individual achievement in baseball after MVPs. That's the world Joe Carter played in.
Guys like Ryan Zimmerman play in an era where walks are considered the same as hits, strikeouts are just another out, and OBP trumps BA. Completely different methodology, which trickles all the way down to the way the players build their swing techniques.
Again, football is a good comparison. Today we judge QBs by QB rating. Johnny Unitas had a career QB rating of 78, a stat that nobody used when he played. Every single QB had a rating higher than his career rating last season. Are we then to say that every single QB playing today is greater than Johnny Unitas?
That's why the only thing that makes sense is to take players within the context of when they played, because the game changes completely over time - and baseball has changed more in the last 15 years than it changed in the 100 years that came before it.
The best players have the best WAR. Doesnt seem very flawed.
Hitting for power and getting on base has always mattered.
Yeah every QB today is better than johnny unitas.
Number 1 is dumb because every single website/stat publication has a different calculation for WAR...so that in and of itself makes it scientifically off.
Number 2 is dumb because players were taught to hit aggressively not to work counts/draw walks/get to the bullpen. That's why it was so innovative when the Yankees, Red Sox, and A's began using that strategy and winning with it. That's where moneyball came from for God's sake.
If you think that every QB playing today is greater than Johnny Unitas was than you know less about football than you seem to about baseball.
You're just trolling at this point.
There are two websites. Two. Only two forms of WAR are used. Fangraphs and BR. One favors defense a little more but are similar. And guys like trout yelich belli etc lead both. Same for all time war. Guess who leads both? Bonds, mays, ruth. SHOCKER! So once again explain how its dumb the best players ever and in todays game all lead in WAR?
Honestly if you think a dude from 1946 is better than anyone playing today then you must be trolling.
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:
I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:
-
He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.
-
He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.
-
Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.
Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.
Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.
I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.
We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.
I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.
Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.
You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter
Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close
You are right lol. Its not close.
Full seasons only
Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802
Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824
You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.
Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived
Furthermore nobody talked about OPS until the last 15 years. When Joe Carter was in his prime, players weren't told that "a walk is as good as a hit" unless there was nobody on base. The best hitter, arguably, in the AL in the late 80's was Kirby Puckett, a notoriously free swinger. Tony Gwynn didn't walk either. Or Ryne Sandberg...
Using OPS to compare players across eras is like using QB rating to say that Tony Romo was better than Johnny Unitas. Johnny U wasn't held to that standard, rules were different, etc.
This entire thread basically comes down to a simple point - in his day Joe Carter was considered a great player. In their day, guys like Neil Walker, Ryan Zimmerman, and others I've seen referenced were/are not, and using 2020 statistical models, which are flawed to begin with, to evaluate the greatness of past players just doesn't make sense period.
Those three guys all still had a better OPS than carter. tony was at 850 as a slap hitter. Very good. Sandberg had a 340 on base, tony was almost at 390. Just a tad better than 305.
I dont get how power and on base numbers cant be used to value Hitters throughout history. But sure.
Neil walker no. But zim was pretty [censored] good for awhile. He just played on bad Nats teams.
Once again not sure how power and on base is flawed when judging a hitter.
WAR and the like are flawed because they take each individual game/situation out of their proper context, and place seasons in computers as if they're played that way. They aren't.
Also, my point was you cannot use the statistics we use today to evaluate hitters from the past. They played in an era when power hitters like Joe Carter were "paid to hit homeruns", strikeouts were embarrassing, and the batting title was the most prestigious individual achievement in baseball after MVPs. That's the world Joe Carter played in.
Guys like Ryan Zimmerman play in an era where walks are considered the same as hits, strikeouts are just another out, and OBP trumps BA. Completely different methodology, which trickles all the way down to the way the players build their swing techniques.
Again, football is a good comparison. Today we judge QBs by QB rating. Johnny Unitas had a career QB rating of 78, a stat that nobody used when he played. Every single QB had a rating higher than his career rating last season. Are we then to say that every single QB playing today is greater than Johnny Unitas?
That's why the only thing that makes sense is to take players within the context of when they played, because the game changes completely over time - and baseball has changed more in the last 15 years than it changed in the 100 years that came before it.
The best players have the best WAR. Doesnt seem very flawed.
Hitting for power and getting on base has always mattered.
Yeah every QB today is better than johnny unitas.
Number 1 is dumb because every single website/stat publication has a different calculation for WAR...so that in and of itself makes it scientifically off.
Number 2 is dumb because players were taught to hit aggressively not to work counts/draw walks/get to the bullpen. That's why it was so innovative when the Yankees, Red Sox, and A's began using that strategy and winning with it. That's where moneyball came from for God's sake.
If you think that every QB playing today is greater than Johnny Unitas was than you know less about football than you seem to about baseball.
You're just trolling at this point.
There are two websites. Two. Only two forms of WAR are used. Fangraphs and BR. One favors defense a little more but are similar. And guys like trout yelich belli etc lead both. Same for all time war. Guess who leads both? Bonds, mays, ruth. SHOCKER! So once again explain how its dumb the best players ever and in todays game all lead in WAR?
Honestly if you think a dude from 1946 is better than anyone playing today then you must be trolling.
I would absolutely without a doubt take 1946 Bob Feller over 2019 Nick Pivetta
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@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:
I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:
-
He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.
-
He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.
-
Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.
Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.
Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.
I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.
We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.
I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.
Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.
You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter
Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close
You are right lol. Its not close.
Full seasons only
Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802
Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824
You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.
Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived
Furthermore nobody talked about OPS until the last 15 years. When Joe Carter was in his prime, players weren't told that "a walk is as good as a hit" unless there was nobody on base. The best hitter, arguably, in the AL in the late 80's was Kirby Puckett, a notoriously free swinger. Tony Gwynn didn't walk either. Or Ryne Sandberg...
Using OPS to compare players across eras is like using QB rating to say that Tony Romo was better than Johnny Unitas. Johnny U wasn't held to that standard, rules were different, etc.
This entire thread basically comes down to a simple point - in his day Joe Carter was considered a great player. In their day, guys like Neil Walker, Ryan Zimmerman, and others I've seen referenced were/are not, and using 2020 statistical models, which are flawed to begin with, to evaluate the greatness of past players just doesn't make sense period.
Those three guys all still had a better OPS than carter. tony was at 850 as a slap hitter. Very good. Sandberg had a 340 on base, tony was almost at 390. Just a tad better than 305.
I dont get how power and on base numbers cant be used to value Hitters throughout history. But sure.
Neil walker no. But zim was pretty [censored] good for awhile. He just played on bad Nats teams.
Once again not sure how power and on base is flawed when judging a hitter.
WAR and the like are flawed because they take each individual game/situation out of their proper context, and place seasons in computers as if they're played that way. They aren't.
Also, my point was you cannot use the statistics we use today to evaluate hitters from the past. They played in an era when power hitters like Joe Carter were "paid to hit homeruns", strikeouts were embarrassing, and the batting title was the most prestigious individual achievement in baseball after MVPs. That's the world Joe Carter played in.
Guys like Ryan Zimmerman play in an era where walks are considered the same as hits, strikeouts are just another out, and OBP trumps BA. Completely different methodology, which trickles all the way down to the way the players build their swing techniques.
Again, football is a good comparison. Today we judge QBs by QB rating. Johnny Unitas had a career QB rating of 78, a stat that nobody used when he played. Every single QB had a rating higher than his career rating last season. Are we then to say that every single QB playing today is greater than Johnny Unitas?
That's why the only thing that makes sense is to take players within the context of when they played, because the game changes completely over time - and baseball has changed more in the last 15 years than it changed in the 100 years that came before it.
The best players have the best WAR. Doesnt seem very flawed.
Hitting for power and getting on base has always mattered.
Yeah every QB today is better than johnny unitas.
Number 1 is dumb because every single website/stat publication has a different calculation for WAR...so that in and of itself makes it scientifically off.
Number 2 is dumb because players were taught to hit aggressively not to work counts/draw walks/get to the bullpen. That's why it was so innovative when the Yankees, Red Sox, and A's began using that strategy and winning with it. That's where moneyball came from for God's sake.
If you think that every QB playing today is greater than Johnny Unitas was than you know less about football than you seem to about baseball.
You're just trolling at this point.
He has been trolling the entire time. I am not 100% certain he is a real person. I can’t figure what set of bad genetics, a horrible environment, bad teachers and lack of love from family and the opposite [censored] could produce such a human.
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@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
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@Wonka3399 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
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@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
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@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:
I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:
-
He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.
-
He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.
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Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.
Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.
Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.
I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.
We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.
I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.
Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.
You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter
Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close
You are right lol. Its not close.
Full seasons only
Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802
Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824
You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.
Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived
OPS is what everyone is using lmao. It shows how often you are in base and how often you slug. Its literally the best stat to show how good a hitter is. And joe effing carter never once OPSed over 850.
Bro. Go look at the last 5 world series winners and where they ranked in OPS. Im not sure why you just used a team with zero budget to prove a point lmao.
The Astros Tank one of those WS by cheating and it is possible so did the RedSox
besides the point. Nats were sixth last year .houston was first. The year before. Boston was first, dodgers were third. 2017 -astros first. 2016- cubs third indians 5th.
Turns out the best teams have the best OPS! how crazy is it that the best teams get on base and hit for power!!!! CRAZYYYYYYY
Im genuinely curious as to who you think is the best hitter of all time, no argument, just wondering you think it is
Modern era would be Barry bonds and Mike trout
Nah I’m not talking era, best of all time
Barry bonds or mike trout.
Neither one of those guys ever hit over .400
Uh so lmao?
You said hitter the best hitters ever so year the best are who over .400. The best hitter in the last 40 years I would say Tony Gywnn
You would rather have tony gwynn on your team than barry bonds hahahahahaha. Who gives a flying [censored] about 400. That does not mean literally anything. If you would take tony gwynn over trout or bonds then you are just a [censored] dude.
That was not the question!!!!!!!!
Who is the best slap hitter ever also was not the question. If you were a manager would you rather have bonds or tony at the dish. Pretty simple.
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@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
- Having to be reliant on biased writers really shouldn't be a metric anyone values. Again, see 1995 where Mo Vaughn won the MVP because he played in Boston and was a nice man, and Albert Belle was a meanie bobeanie, and Edgar Martinez played for a city we aren't even sure exists. Also, Zimmerman got MVP votes in 4 different seasons
- You can NOT knock Zimmerman for playing his prime seasons for bad teams when measuring individual skill. And before someone says it, I was not knocking Juan Gonzalez for being a Ranger in the mid-late 90s, I was stating how that inflated his RBI numbers and that led to two MVP awards.
- There were years where he was in the discussion for third best, behind two arguable top 5 all time 3B in A-Rod and Chipper Jones. It's a bit unfair to say he has to be in the discussion for the best at his position when he's roadblocked by two of the best to ever play the position. You wouldn't knock Alan Trammel for playing the same position at the same time as Ozzie Smith, Cal Ripken, and Robin Yount, would you?
- Mo Vaughn did not win the MVP in 1995 because of bias, he won it because there's a very strong argument he deserved it. Did Belle have a better year? Yep. But Mo Vaughn CARRIED a team where the next best player was John f'ing Valentin that year. Belle batted in the middle of the greatest lineup I've ever seen and I'll never forget (Lofton, Vizquel, Baerga, Belle, Murray, Thome, Ramirez, Sorrento, Alomar Jr). Yes Manny Ramirez batted 7th this team was so good. The argument is if you remove Mo Vaughn and replace him with a replacement player the Red Sox are sunk. Do the same for Belle, and the Indians are still in the World Series that year. They were that good.
- Juan Gonzalez got tons of RBIs because he was an incredible hitter. As a Sox fan I can't tell you how many times Frank Thomas stubbornly took a walk, then the guy behind him rolled into a DP. There is such a thing for having a knack for getting the job done. He did not have better hitters in front of him than Frank Thomas, Albert Belle, Ken Griffey Jr, or Rafael Palmeiro did in those years...but he sure had more RBIs. Miguel Cabrera and Manny Ramirez (though Manny was in better positions) also come to mind.
- The point is context matters. Compared to HIS PEERS, Joe Carter was considered a great player. Ryan Zimmerman is not.
Stating that Mo deserved it because his team stunk is not at all indicative to what player value is. At the end of the day, Mo Vaughn was, at best, the third best bat in the American League, and even that is a stretch. Here's 5 players from the 1995 Season, both traditional and advanced stats (Bold indicates League Leader)
A : 752 PA, 207 H, 28 2B, 3 3B, 39 HR, 126 RBI, 150 K, 68 BB, .300/.388/.575/.963, 144 OPS+, 139 wRC+
B : 631 PA, 173 H, 52 2B, 1 3B, 50 HR, 126 RBI, 80 K, 73 BB, .317/.401/.690/1.091, 177 OPS+, 173 wRC+
C : 639 PA, 182 H, 52 2B, 0 3B, 29 HR, 113 RBI, 87 K, 116 BB, .356/.479/.628/1.107, 185 OPS+, 182 wRC+
D : 638 PA, 177 H, 34 2B, 3 3B, 34 HR, 105 RBI, 111K, 91 BB, .330/.429/.594/.1.024, 165 OPS+, 163 wRC+
E : 647 PA, 152 H, 27 2B, 0 3B, 40 HR, 111 RBI, 74 K, 136 BB , .308/.454/.606/1.061, 179 OPS+, 168 wRC+Looking at that, who would you say had the biggest impact as a hitter?
#3 Edgar Martinez. But more goes into the MVP than simply looking at how good his individual season was. First of all Edgar didn't have to play defense. That matters. Second, the Mariners were 7 games worse than the Red Sox that year. Third the Mariners had a lot more around Edgar. Tino Martinez and Jay Buhner were better than every player, other than Mo, on the Red Sox. They got Griffey back the back half of the year, and they had Randy Johnson.
That's where those 126 RBi come in...
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Wonka3399 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Wonka3399 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
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@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:
I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:
-
He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.
-
He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.
-
Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.
Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.
Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.
I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.
We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.
I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.
Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.
You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter
Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close
You are right lol. Its not close.
Full seasons only
Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802
Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824
You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.
Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived
OPS is what everyone is using lmao. It shows how often you are in base and how often you slug. Its literally the best stat to show how good a hitter is. And joe effing carter never once OPSed over 850.
Bro. Go look at the last 5 world series winners and where they ranked in OPS. Im not sure why you just used a team with zero budget to prove a point lmao.
The Astros Tank one of those WS by cheating and it is possible so did the RedSox
besides the point. Nats were sixth last year .houston was first. The year before. Boston was first, dodgers were third. 2017 -astros first. 2016- cubs third indians 5th.
Turns out the best teams have the best OPS! how crazy is it that the best teams get on base and hit for power!!!! CRAZYYYYYYY
Im genuinely curious as to who you think is the best hitter of all time, no argument, just wondering you think it is
Modern era would be Barry bonds and Mike trout
Nah I’m not talking era, best of all time
Barry bonds or mike trout.
Neither one of those guys ever hit over .400
Uh so lmao?
You said hitter the best hitters ever so year the best are who over .400. The best hitter in the last 40 years I would say Tony Gywnn
You would rather have tony gwynn on your team than barry bonds hahahahahaha. Who gives a flying [censored] about 400. That does not mean literally anything. If you would take tony gwynn over trout or bonds then you are just a [censored] dude.
That was not the question!!!!!!!!
Who is the best slap hitter ever also was not the question. If you were a manager would you rather have bonds or tony at the dish. Pretty simple.
But Gwynn has a better batting average and got more hits so he is the better hitter.
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Wonka3399 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Wonka3399 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:
I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:
-
He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.
-
He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.
-
Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.
Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.
Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.
I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.
We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.
I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.
Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.
You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter
Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close
You are right lol. Its not close.
Full seasons only
Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802
Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824
You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.
Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived
OPS is what everyone is using lmao. It shows how often you are in base and how often you slug. Its literally the best stat to show how good a hitter is. And joe effing carter never once OPSed over 850.
Bro. Go look at the last 5 world series winners and where they ranked in OPS. Im not sure why you just used a team with zero budget to prove a point lmao.
The Astros Tank one of those WS by cheating and it is possible so did the RedSox
besides the point. Nats were sixth last year .houston was first. The year before. Boston was first, dodgers were third. 2017 -astros first. 2016- cubs third indians 5th.
Turns out the best teams have the best OPS! how crazy is it that the best teams get on base and hit for power!!!! CRAZYYYYYYY
Im genuinely curious as to who you think is the best hitter of all time, no argument, just wondering you think it is
Modern era would be Barry bonds and Mike trout
Nah I’m not talking era, best of all time
Barry bonds or mike trout.
Neither one of those guys ever hit over .400
Uh so lmao?
You said hitter the best hitters ever so year the best are who over .400. The best hitter in the last 40 years I would say Tony Gywnn
You would rather have tony gwynn on your team than barry bonds hahahahahaha. Who gives a flying [censored] about 400. That does not mean literally anything. If you would take tony gwynn over trout or bonds then you are just a [censored] dude.
That was not the question!!!!!!!!
Who is the best slap hitter ever also was not the question. If you were a manager would you rather have bonds or tony at the dish. Pretty simple.
I would take Cobb
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@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
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@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:
I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:
-
He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.
-
He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.
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Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.
Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.
Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.
I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.
We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.
I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.
Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.
You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter
Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close
You are right lol. Its not close.
Full seasons only
Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802
Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824
You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.
Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived
OPS is what everyone is using lmao. It shows how often you are in base and how often you slug. Its literally the best stat to show how good a hitter is. And joe effing carter never once OPSed over 850.
Bro. Go look at the last 5 world series winners and where they ranked in OPS. Im not sure why you just used a team with zero budget to prove a point lmao.
The Astros Tank one of those WS by cheating and it is possible so did the RedSox
besides the point. Nats were sixth last year .houston was first. The year before. Boston was first, dodgers were third. 2017 -astros first. 2016- cubs third indians 5th.
Turns out the best teams have the best OPS! how crazy is it that the best teams get on base and hit for power!!!! CRAZYYYYYYY
Im genuinely curious as to who you think is the best hitter of all time, no argument, just wondering you think it is
Modern era would be Barry bonds and Mike trout
Nah I’m not talking era, best of all time
Barry bonds or mike trout.
Neither one of those guys ever hit over .400
Uh so lmao?
You said hitter the best hitters ever so year the best are who over .400. The best hitter in the last 40 years I would say Tony Gywnn
You would rather have tony gwynn on your team than barry bonds hahahahahaha. Who gives a flying [censored] about 400. That does not mean literally anything. If you would take tony gwynn over trout or bonds then you are just a [censored] dude.
That was not the question!!!!!!!!
Who is the best slap hitter ever also was not the question. If you were a manager would you rather have bonds or tony at the dish. Pretty simple.
I would take Cobb, of course Bonds or any power hitter that can change the score board on one swing
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Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:
I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:
-
He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.
-
He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.
-
Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.
Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.
Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.
I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.
We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.
I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.
Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.
You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter
Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close
You are right lol. Its not close.
Full seasons only
Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802
Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824
You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.
Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived
OPS is what everyone is using lmao. It shows how often you are in base and how often you slug. Its literally the best stat to show how good a hitter is. And joe effing carter never once OPSed over 850.
Bro. Go look at the last 5 world series winners and where they ranked in OPS. Im not sure why you just used a team with zero budget to prove a point lmao.
The Astros Tank one of those WS by cheating and it is possible so did the RedSox
besides the point. Nats were sixth last year .houston was first. The year before. Boston was first, dodgers were third. 2017 -astros first. 2016- cubs third indians 5th.
Turns out the best teams have the best OPS! how crazy is it that the best teams get on base and hit for power!!!! CRAZYYYYYYY
Im genuinely curious as to who you think is the best hitter of all time, no argument, just wondering you think it is
Modern era would be Barry bonds and Mike trout
Nah I’m not talking era, best of all time
Barry bonds or mike trout.
Neither one of those guys ever hit over .400
Uh so lmao?
You said hitter the best hitters ever so year the best are who over .400. The best hitter in the last 40 years I would say Tony Gywnn
You would rather have tony gwynn on your team than barry bonds hahahahahaha. Who gives a flying [censored] about 400. That does not mean literally anything. If you would take tony gwynn over trout or bonds then you are just a [censored] dude.
That was not the question!!!!!!!!
Who is the best slap hitter ever also was not the question. If you were a manager would you rather have bonds or tony at the dish. Pretty simple.
But Gwynn has a better batting average and got more hits so he is the better hitter.
Yeah man tony gwynn is a better hitter than barry bonds. Can you please take your liberal self somewhere and inject mass amounts of heroin into your arm? Im tired of seeing you respond to me. It gets more retarded every comment and im over it. You are borderline obsessed with me and its weird.
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@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
- Having to be reliant on biased writers really shouldn't be a metric anyone values. Again, see 1995 where Mo Vaughn won the MVP because he played in Boston and was a nice man, and Albert Belle was a meanie bobeanie, and Edgar Martinez played for a city we aren't even sure exists. Also, Zimmerman got MVP votes in 4 different seasons
- You can NOT knock Zimmerman for playing his prime seasons for bad teams when measuring individual skill. And before someone says it, I was not knocking Juan Gonzalez for being a Ranger in the mid-late 90s, I was stating how that inflated his RBI numbers and that led to two MVP awards.
- There were years where he was in the discussion for third best, behind two arguable top 5 all time 3B in A-Rod and Chipper Jones. It's a bit unfair to say he has to be in the discussion for the best at his position when he's roadblocked by two of the best to ever play the position. You wouldn't knock Alan Trammel for playing the same position at the same time as Ozzie Smith, Cal Ripken, and Robin Yount, would you?
- Mo Vaughn did not win the MVP in 1995 because of bias, he won it because there's a very strong argument he deserved it. Did Belle have a better year? Yep. But Mo Vaughn CARRIED a team where the next best player was John f'ing Valentin that year. Belle batted in the middle of the greatest lineup I've ever seen and I'll never forget (Lofton, Vizquel, Baerga, Belle, Murray, Thome, Ramirez, Sorrento, Alomar Jr). Yes Manny Ramirez batted 7th this team was so good. The argument is if you remove Mo Vaughn and replace him with a replacement player the Red Sox are sunk. Do the same for Belle, and the Indians are still in the World Series that year. They were that good.
- Juan Gonzalez got tons of RBIs because he was an incredible hitter. As a Sox fan I can't tell you how many times Frank Thomas stubbornly took a walk, then the guy behind him rolled into a DP. There is such a thing for having a knack for getting the job done. He did not have better hitters in front of him than Frank Thomas, Albert Belle, Ken Griffey Jr, or Rafael Palmeiro did in those years...but he sure had more RBIs. Miguel Cabrera and Manny Ramirez (though Manny was in better positions) also come to mind.
- The point is context matters. Compared to HIS PEERS, Joe Carter was considered a great player. Ryan Zimmerman is not.
Stating that Mo deserved it because his team stunk is not at all indicative to what player value is. At the end of the day, Mo Vaughn was, at best, the third best bat in the American League, and even that is a stretch. Here's 5 players from the 1995 Season, both traditional and advanced stats (Bold indicates League Leader)
A : 752 PA, 207 H, 28 2B, 3 3B, 39 HR, 126 RBI, 150 K, 68 BB, .300/.388/.575/.963, 144 OPS+, 139 wRC+
B : 631 PA, 173 H, 52 2B, 1 3B, 50 HR, 126 RBI, 80 K, 73 BB, .317/.401/.690/1.091, 177 OPS+, 173 wRC+
C : 639 PA, 182 H, 52 2B, 0 3B, 29 HR, 113 RBI, 87 K, 116 BB, .356/.479/.628/1.107, 185 OPS+, 182 wRC+
D : 638 PA, 177 H, 34 2B, 3 3B, 34 HR, 105 RBI, 111K, 91 BB, .330/.429/.594/.1.024, 165 OPS+, 163 wRC+
E : 647 PA, 152 H, 27 2B, 0 3B, 40 HR, 111 RBI, 74 K, 136 BB , .308/.454/.606/1.061, 179 OPS+, 168 wRC+Looking at that, who would you say had the biggest impact as a hitter?
#3 Edgar Martinez. But more goes into the MVP than simply looking at how good his individual season was. First of all Edgar didn't have to play defense. That matters. Second, the Mariners were 7 games worse than the Red Sox that year. Third the Mariners had a lot more around Edgar. Tino Martinez and Jay Buhner were better than every player, other than Mo, on the Red Sox. They got Griffey back the back half of the year, and they had Randy Johnson.
That's where those 126 RBi come in...
The team around you plays no role in how valuable a player is. Edgar without a glove was more valuable than Mo Vaughn with a glove. Edgar had the misfortune of playing in an era where being on an irrelevant team was a death sentence unless your name was Ken Griffey Jr. If you put that Edgar with the exact same numbers in Baltimore, he wins the MVP in a blowout. Mike Trout would have a hard time winning MVPs in the 90s because of just how useless and unknown the Angels were. Tim Salmon had a fantastic career, better than some Hall of Famers, yet never even made it to an All Star game!
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
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@Wonka3399 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:
I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:
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He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.
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He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.
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Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.
Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.
Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.
I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.
We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.
I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.
Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.
You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter
Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close
You are right lol. Its not close.
Full seasons only
Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802
Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824
You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.
Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived
OPS is what everyone is using lmao. It shows how often you are in base and how often you slug. Its literally the best stat to show how good a hitter is. And joe effing carter never once OPSed over 850.
Bro. Go look at the last 5 world series winners and where they ranked in OPS. Im not sure why you just used a team with zero budget to prove a point lmao.
The Astros Tank one of those WS by cheating and it is possible so did the RedSox
besides the point. Nats were sixth last year .houston was first. The year before. Boston was first, dodgers were third. 2017 -astros first. 2016- cubs third indians 5th.
Turns out the best teams have the best OPS! how crazy is it that the best teams get on base and hit for power!!!! CRAZYYYYYYY
Im genuinely curious as to who you think is the best hitter of all time, no argument, just wondering you think it is
Modern era would be Barry bonds and Mike trout
Nah I’m not talking era, best of all time
Barry bonds or mike trout.
Neither one of those guys ever hit over .400
Uh so lmao?
You said hitter the best hitters ever so year the best are who over .400. The best hitter in the last 40 years I would say Tony Gywnn
You would rather have tony gwynn on your team than barry bonds hahahahahaha. Who gives a flying [censored] about 400. That does not mean literally anything. If you would take tony gwynn over trout or bonds then you are just a [censored] dude.
That was not the question!!!!!!!!
Who is the best slap hitter ever also was not the question. If you were a manager would you rather have bonds or tony at the dish. Pretty simple.
This logic right here also applies to Carter and Zimmerman.
Ask 30 managers which one they would rather have at the dish in a WS game.
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Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:
I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:
-
He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.
-
He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.
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Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.
Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.
Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.
I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.
We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.
I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.
Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.
You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter
Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close
You are right lol. Its not close.
Full seasons only
Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802
Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824
You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.
Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived
Furthermore nobody talked about OPS until the last 15 years. When Joe Carter was in his prime, players weren't told that "a walk is as good as a hit" unless there was nobody on base. The best hitter, arguably, in the AL in the late 80's was Kirby Puckett, a notoriously free swinger. Tony Gwynn didn't walk either. Or Ryne Sandberg...
Using OPS to compare players across eras is like using QB rating to say that Tony Romo was better than Johnny Unitas. Johnny U wasn't held to that standard, rules were different, etc.
This entire thread basically comes down to a simple point - in his day Joe Carter was considered a great player. In their day, guys like Neil Walker, Ryan Zimmerman, and others I've seen referenced were/are not, and using 2020 statistical models, which are flawed to begin with, to evaluate the greatness of past players just doesn't make sense period.
Those three guys all still had a better OPS than carter. tony was at 850 as a slap hitter. Very good. Sandberg had a 340 on base, tony was almost at 390. Just a tad better than 305.
I dont get how power and on base numbers cant be used to value Hitters throughout history. But sure.
Neil walker no. But zim was pretty [censored] good for awhile. He just played on bad Nats teams.
Once again not sure how power and on base is flawed when judging a hitter.
WAR and the like are flawed because they take each individual game/situation out of their proper context, and place seasons in computers as if they're played that way. They aren't.
Also, my point was you cannot use the statistics we use today to evaluate hitters from the past. They played in an era when power hitters like Joe Carter were "paid to hit homeruns", strikeouts were embarrassing, and the batting title was the most prestigious individual achievement in baseball after MVPs. That's the world Joe Carter played in.
Guys like Ryan Zimmerman play in an era where walks are considered the same as hits, strikeouts are just another out, and OBP trumps BA. Completely different methodology, which trickles all the way down to the way the players build their swing techniques.
Again, football is a good comparison. Today we judge QBs by QB rating. Johnny Unitas had a career QB rating of 78, a stat that nobody used when he played. Every single QB had a rating higher than his career rating last season. Are we then to say that every single QB playing today is greater than Johnny Unitas?
That's why the only thing that makes sense is to take players within the context of when they played, because the game changes completely over time - and baseball has changed more in the last 15 years than it changed in the 100 years that came before it.
The best players have the best WAR. Doesnt seem very flawed.
Hitting for power and getting on base has always mattered.
Yeah every QB today is better than johnny unitas.
Number 1 is dumb because every single website/stat publication has a different calculation for WAR...so that in and of itself makes it scientifically off.
Number 2 is dumb because players were taught to hit aggressively not to work counts/draw walks/get to the bullpen. That's why it was so innovative when the Yankees, Red Sox, and A's began using that strategy and winning with it. That's where moneyball came from for God's sake.
If you think that every QB playing today is greater than Johnny Unitas was than you know less about football than you seem to about baseball.
You're just trolling at this point.
There are two websites. Two. Only two forms of WAR are used. Fangraphs and BR. One favors defense a little more but are similar. And guys like trout yelich belli etc lead both. Same for all time war. Guess who leads both? Bonds, mays, ruth. SHOCKER! So once again explain how its dumb the best players ever and in todays game all lead in WAR?
Honestly if you think a dude from 1946 is better than anyone playing today then you must be trolling.
I didn't say better I said greater. If you could put Mike Trout into a time machine and teleport him back to 1956 he'd make Mantle, Mays, and Aaron look like little boys. That's why the "greatness" of players needs to be considered in a more historical context not as if they can play against each other.
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@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
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@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
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@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
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Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:
I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:
-
He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.
-
He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.
-
Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.
Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.
Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.
I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.
We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.
I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.
Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.
You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter
Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close
You are right lol. Its not close.
Full seasons only
Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802
Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824
You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.
Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived
OPS is what everyone is using lmao. It shows how often you are in base and how often you slug. Its literally the best stat to show how good a hitter is. And joe effing carter never once OPSed over 850.
Bro. Go look at the last 5 world series winners and where they ranked in OPS. Im not sure why you just used a team with zero budget to prove a point lmao.
The Astros Tank one of those WS by cheating and it is possible so did the RedSox
besides the point. Nats were sixth last year .houston was first. The year before. Boston was first, dodgers were third. 2017 -astros first. 2016- cubs third indians 5th.
Turns out the best teams have the best OPS! how crazy is it that the best teams get on base and hit for power!!!! CRAZYYYYYYY
Im genuinely curious as to who you think is the best hitter of all time, no argument, just wondering you think it is
Modern era would be Barry bonds and Mike trout
Nah I’m not talking era, best of all time
Barry bonds or mike trout.
Neither one of those guys ever hit over .400
Uh so lmao?
You said hitter the best hitters ever so year the best are who over .400. The best hitter in the last 40 years I would say Tony Gywnn
You would rather have tony gwynn on your team than barry bonds hahahahahaha. Who gives a flying [censored] about 400. That does not mean literally anything. If you would take tony gwynn over trout or bonds then you are just a [censored] dude.
That was not the question!!!!!!!!
Who is the best slap hitter ever also was not the question. If you were a manager would you rather have bonds or tony at the dish. Pretty simple.
But Gwynn has a better batting average and got more hits so he is the better hitter.
That's not how it works. That's like saying Nolan Ryan is the greatest pitcher of all time because he threw the hardest.
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