HOF
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Subjective voting puts them in the hall. So by your logic there should only be some benchmarks that players need to hit and then they're in. Honest question: is that what you want? And the All Star and MVP voting just doesn't fall out of the sky. For the most part, they get it right. Sure, there are some outliers (see what I did there?) with the All Star voting, but all in all it's very good.
And to the Yount guy: when is the last time you looked at his #'s? Been a while for me, so I was pretty surprised at how average they are. I think we tend to overrate older players like him.
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@ndb34_psn said in HOF:
I'm a biased sox fan, but hearing "Ortiz is a know PED user" isn't accurate. His name was on a list that got leaked years after the fact. Also, that whole testing program in 2003 had serious problems. Manfred even said it's possible he wasn't even on that list. But I say let in the juicers like Bonds and Clemens, just mention their histories on their plaques. Same with Pete Rose.
But Scott Rolen and Curt Schilling? Lol, hall of FAME not hall of very good.Respectfully sir, I think you’re dead wrong when it comes to Schilling. Now in regard to Rolen, I can see how someone that didn’t live near STL or Philly would think that. Once Rolen became a Cardinal, I saw him play everyday for years. I’ve watched more baseball in my life than most people. I’ll put him right there with Arenado defensively. People won’t believe that and they will call me insane, but I’m tellin ya it’s true. I saw it first hand. That combined with the numbers he put up offensively, I think he deserves it. All this is my opinion and doesn’t mean jack squat.
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Also, it’s time to take HOF voting away from the writers and give it the players and former players. It is clear the writers are completely lost and have no clue what they’re doing!
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@ndb34_psn said in HOF:
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And to the Yount guy: when is the last time you looked at his #'s? Been a while for me, so I was pretty surprised at how average they are. I think we tend to overrate older players like him.
What?
30th all time in offensive WAR
40th all time in runs
20th all time in hits
36th all time in Total Bases
22nd all time in Doubles6 top 10 seasons in batting average
4 top 10 seasons in SLG%
He led the league in OPS as a SS, then was 3rd as a CF.
He also is 49th all time in XBH, and 77th in RBI even though many people remember him as a top of the lineup singles hitter.What exactly is there about those numbers that make you think he wasnt good?
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Never said he wasn't good, he was very good! A lot of the stats you mentioned are volume stats, which if you play for 20 years, will stack up on all time lists. Again, the hall should be the elite of the era in which the played. Just my take, it's ok if I'm wrong!
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@ndb34_psn said in HOF:
Subjective voting puts them in the hall. So by your logic there should only be some benchmarks that players need to hit and then they're in. Honest question: is that what you want? And the All Star and MVP voting just doesn't fall out of the sky. For the most part, they get it right. Sure, there are some outliers (see what I did there?) with the All Star voting, but all in all it's very good.
And to the Yount guy: when is the last time you looked at his #'s? Been a while for me, so I was pretty surprised at how average they are. I think we tend to overrate older players like him.
Yes, subjective voting does put them in the hall, unfortunately. We’ve seen just how “great” that system is recently. What I want is stats to matter first and foremost. A guy with 70 fWAR, 3 MVPs, and 6 AS appearances is the same as a player with 70 fWAR, no MVPs, and no AS appearances. In the end, they both put up the same value to their teams.
All-Star voting is the definition of a popularity contest due to fans voting. Obviously people are going to vote for their favorite players regardless of their stats. MVPs have gotten much better in recent years, but they still aren’t as accurate as they should be. My main point isn’t necessarily that AS and MVP votes are totally wrong, it’s that a guy not getting those votes doesn’t make him any worse than a player that does. In Rolen’s case, he put up a 9.0 fWAR season in 2004, which is by all definitions an MVP caliber season. It isn’t his fault that a roided up Bonds had an insane 11.9 fWAR season and Adrian Beltre had his best career year by far. That doesn’t take away from the fact that most good or even great players will never have a 9.0 season like Rolen. But he didn’t win MVP, so apparently it doesn’t matter how amazing the season was. Were there better players than Rolen during his career? Of course, but a great player next to another great player is still a great player.
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@mjfc_363_psn said in HOF:
@ndb34_psn said in HOF:
I'm a biased sox fan, but hearing "Ortiz is a know PED user" isn't accurate. His name was on a list that got leaked years after the fact. Also, that whole testing program in 2003 had serious problems. Manfred even said it's possible he wasn't even on that list. But I say let in the juicers like Bonds and Clemens, just mention their histories on their plaques. Same with Pete Rose.
But Scott Rolen and Curt Schilling? Lol, hall of FAME not hall of very good.Respectfully sir, I think you’re dead wrong when it comes to Schilling. Now in regard to Rolen, I can see how someone that didn’t live near STL or Philly would think that. Once Rolen became a Cardinal, I saw him play everyday for years. I’ve watched more baseball in my life than most people. I’ll put him right there with Arenado defensively. People won’t believe that and they will call me insane, but I’m tellin ya it’s true. I saw it first hand. That combined with the numbers he put up offensively, I think he deserves it. All this is my opinion and doesn’t mean jack squat.
Based on the metrics we have, Rolen was actually way better than Arenado defensively. UZR only goes back to 2002, but Rolen had 20+ in 2002 and 2004, along with 3 more 10+ seasons. Arenado’s best UZR was 14.6 in 2013, and his only other 10+ season is 10.3 in 2019. Rolen also had 30 DRS in 2004, while Arenado’s best is 23 is 2019. Arenado’s best seasons by Fangraphs’ Def are 16.5 in 2013 and 12.5 in 2019. Rolen’s best seasons by Def are 24.9 in 2002, 23.4 in 2004, and 18.0 in 1999, along with 6 other 10+ seasons. Arenado’s only 10+ seasons are the two I mentioned.
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@ndb34_psn said in HOF:
Never said he wasn't good, he was very good! A lot of the stats you mentioned are volume stats, which if you play for 20 years, will stack up on all time lists. Again, the hall should be the elite of the era in which the played. Just my take, it's ok if I'm wrong!
Yount was elite though. He won 2 MVPs in the 80s. He was up against Cal Ripken and Trammell for SS in the AL. Moving to CF, hes up against Puckett, Griffey, and Rickey Henderson for all star voting. Everyone considers Ripken a slam dunk HOF player. Compare Younts slashline with Ripken. It's pretty close.
Ripken .276 AVG/.340 OBP/.447 SLG/.788 OPS/ 112 OPS+
Yount .285 AVG/.342 OBP/.430 SLG/.772 OPS/ 115 OPS+ -
@ndb34_psn said in HOF:
Never said he wasn't good, he was very good! A lot of the stats you mentioned are volume stats, which if you play for 20 years, will stack up on all time lists. Again, the hall should be the elite of the era in which the played. Just my take, it's ok if I'm wrong!
Ah yes, let’s penalize him for longevity lol! I consider longevity and the ability to stay healthy part of the criteria for making the hall. When you take into consideration how many thousands of men played in the MLB, those numbers the other gentleman mentioned are very worthy. He also won MVP at two different positions.
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I'm going to be biased and say Robin Yount was definitely a HOF caliber player and human being. I had the honor of being the Brewers bat boy in the 80's and he and Paul Molitor were both big names at the time, but Robin Yount went out of his way to hang out with me in the dugout and actually talk baseball with a kid. He taught me that no matter how big you got you always remain humble.
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I love the back and forth on here. Who says nobody cares about baseball anymore?
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Wait, there is an argument on whether Robin Yount was a hall of Famer? Are you joking me? He was one of the best players of his time period and you only can compare players of when they played and who they played against. He was one of the best there was in the 80's during a dead ball time of home runs. He was an elite hitter. I hate the Brewers and all Wisconsin sports teams. But the argument is just ludicrous. His WAR some years matched Mike Trouts best years.
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@virusts_xbl said in HOF:
Wait, there is an argument on whether Robin Yount was a hall of Famer? Are you joking me? He was one of the best players of his time period and you only can compare players of when they played and who they played against. He was one of the best there was in the 80's during a dead ball time of home runs. He was an elite hitter. I hate the Brewers and all Wisconsin sports teams. But the argument is just ludicrous. His WAR some years matched Mike Trouts best years.
Yount is obviously deserving of being in the hall, but his 1982 season (9.8 fWAR) is really the only one that compares to a fully healthy Trout season. His next three highest are 6.4, 6.1, and 5.5
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@poksey_mlbts said in HOF:
@ndb34_psn said in HOF:
Never said he wasn't good, he was very good! A lot of the stats you mentioned are volume stats, which if you play for 20 years, will stack up on all time lists. Again, the hall should be the elite of the era in which the played. Just my take, it's ok if I'm wrong!
Yount was elite though. He won 2 MVPs in the 80s. He was up against Cal Ripken and Trammell for SS in the AL. Moving to CF, hes up against Puckett, Griffey, and Rickey Henderson for all star voting. Everyone considers Ripken a slam dunk HOF player. Compare Younts slashline with Ripken. It's pretty close.
Ripken .276 AVG/.340 OBP/.447 SLG/.788 OPS/ 112 OPS+
Yount .285 AVG/.342 OBP/.430 SLG/.772 OPS/ 115 OPS+I love the back and forth here too. It's great to have a respectable debate without it devolving into "sHuT Up iDIot"
The slashline you posted is slightly above average for Yount's era.
As far as volume stats go, no a player's longevity obviously should not be held against him. And it should help his Hall worthiness. But having a slightly above average long career shouldn't put you over the top.
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