TA 5 Reveals
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@ericulous1_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@ericulous1_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@ericulous1_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@oreorockstar_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@sevisonjn_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@skarmaen_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
I think they should just give the best players finest cards and not worry at all about how many diamonds they might already have.
Salvador Perez should be the KC finest, Mullins the BAL finest, etc. I don't care if they'll have 5 cards. It's mid-November, the MLB season is over and I'd much rather just have the best of the best.
I agree... Finest should be best player performance on each team in 2021.
The best player performance on the Royals was Nicky Lopez though, not Perez.
I can’t tell if you are kidding, but not sure how you say a guy with 150 hits, 2 homers and a .300 averages is better than a catcher who hits over .279 and sets a catcher record with 48 homers.
Of course Perez was better offensively, but as a whole he was a worse player.
Lopez was an entire win better than Perez, 4.4 fWAR vs 3.4 fWAR.
This is where fWAR completely loses me. In no way shape or form was Nicky Lopez better or more important than Salvador Perez. You mentioned in another thread that Salvy had a bad defensive year....so how was he nominated as a finalist for the gold glove? I know gold gloves aren't a perfect measure but if we think those are skewed how do we know fWAR is whatever they tell us?
No I'm not getting all conspiracy theory here. It just makes absolutely no sense that a player with absolutely no run production (the way you win games) is better than the best run producer in the league.
Besides, according to Baseball reference Salvy was a 5.3 and Lopez was a 4.4. Why would they have a different WAR figure? And if they do, who is the governing body that has deemed fangraphs the right WAR and baseball Reference the inferior WAR.
Among catchers with at least 300 PA (30 total catchers), Perez was the worst defensively by Fangraphs’ Def. He was nominated for a gold glove because the award is as much of a popularity contest as it is an award for the best defensive player. Playing great defense with around average hitting can provide just as much value as great offense with terrible defense. You should know this, being a Cardinals/Molina fan. There’s a ton of small differences between the bWAR and fWAR formulas, so there’s always going to be cases where guys have a noticeable gap between the two. I’ll fully admit that I don’t know all the tiny nuanced details of each one. Generally speaking, fWAR is considered the better and more accurate formula for position players at least, and MLB itself seems to agree as well with them proposing to officially use fWAR as the basis for determining arbitration salaries.
But this is where to me it's challenging to follow it blindly. So we're saying Baseball accepts fWAR as the more accurate and definitive formula and yet, it's the same Baseball that can't be trusted to run a fair gold glove competition and though it explicitly states in the rules that offense should hold no bareing, we assume it's a popularity contest. And yet Jacob Stallings a player most casual fans have never heard of, wins over Molina and Realmuto, two of the most popular players of the game. And they were right, Stallings deserved to win.
So are we really saying that gold gloves are a pure sham and have no credibility, then I say baseball choosing fWAR has the same credibility,It'sthe same brain trust executing these decisions
Salvy isn't some offense first catcher, he's won 5 gold gloves (4 more than Posey) and I'm sorry but I can't believe the system is so corrupt that a below average to poor fielder has won the top award at the hardest position in his league 5 times and was a finalist 3 others.
At this point I'm not even sure which argument I'm fighting hahahahw. I just wish we could use analytics and keep them in house but not rely solely on them. In many ways they have helped smaller markets evaluate players more pragmatically and have improved the competitive balance of the sport. In other ways, they have really damaged and deromanticized a beautiful game and turned it into a 3 possible outcome sport where nobody can bunt, move runners, hit for average or produce runs on a consistent basis. They are too busy focusing on launch angle and OBP. I'm not blaming this on analytics completely, but it's certainly played a role. It's why we had a grand total of 13 players hit over .300. That is not the beautiful game I grew up with.
In short. fWAR has it's place, but just as baseball chooses to value other aspects of a players game, so may we choose to determine a players worth in other ways than the holy fWAR.
The difference is that awards like gold gloves are voted on by individual people, who may or may not actually factor defensive metrics into their vote. If MLB used fWAR for arbitration hearings, that has nothing to do with subjective voting. I never said gold gloves are a sham, but the best defensive player at each doesn’t always win. Derek Jeter won 5 of them, despite being one of the worst defensive shortstops in the history of the game. And you’re not going to like this, but Ryan McMahon had two times more DRS and a higher UZR at 3B this year than Arenado. This was the worst defensive season of Perez’s career, and over two times worse than his next worst season. Statistically, Perez shouldn’t have a single gold glove. There were multiple better defensive catchers in the AL every single year Perez won a gold glove. And just for clarification, Posey has 6 seasons that were much, much better than Perez’s best defensive season, as well as this year being equal to it. A good defensive player can have bad defensive seasons the exact same way a good hitter can have bad offensive seasons though.
One of the best things about the metrics we have now is that they show a player doesn’t need to hit .300 to be just as valuable or more than a guy that does. They’ve also shown that a player can be not that great of a hitter despite hitting .300. I mean, Nicky Lopez hit .300 this year while Perez only hit .273. By your argument, would you not consider him a better hitter than people like Perez, Votto, Grandal, Ohtani, Betts, etc.? Personally, I think players being able to put up value in a variety of ways is much more beautiful than having to hit .300 to be considered an elite hitter.
In short, fWAR and other metrics (both offensive and defensive) have substantially improved player evaluation, showing that guys like Gallo and Grandal can provide just as much value as a .300 hitter, and also showing what a great defensive player actually looks like as opposed to guys that only look good using fielding percentage or the eye test.
I'm not really disagreeing with what you're saying. There is no question modern metrics have revolutionized the way talent is evaluated which give teams Iike the Rays and A's a fighting chance against the wall street spenders. But if I'm being honest, the game today is nowhere near as exciting as it was 2-3-4 decades ago, at least not to me. But if it is to you, that is actually comforting to know and maybe I'm the one missing out. I still watch at an avid rate and try to appreciate these stats that confound me because I was an English major.
Personally, I miss a good old fashioned batting race. I remember going to a game when I was 7 between the Giants and Padres with nothing to play for but Will Clark and Tony Gwynn went down to the last at bat to determine who won the batting title. This year, I didn't know who the batting leaders were until the season was over and I looked it up. And I pay far more attention now than I did when I was 7 and Gwynn got a single in his last at bat and a hug from Will the Thrill when he returned to first.
Yes, I agree baseball should be more complex than just hit .300, 30 HR, 100 RBI, though there is always something beautiful about those round sacred numbers. But absolutely, I love a player that provides value all over the field. The problem I see is how one dimensional the game has gotten. I watched the Padres lose a game in extras to the Dodgers despite having the winning run on 3rd with less than 2 outs, 3 consecutive innings and 3 times the hitter who was trying to get the perfect launch angle struck out because the fundamentals no longer matter. I'm not saying that's the fault of metrics, but it's a factor.
I'm never going to win an argument with you because you are far more knowledgeable about the modern metrics and actually I'm greatful to see there are people who care that deeply. That is also what is beautiful about the game, two completely different fans (at least in the way we study the game) can both write out these long passionate arguments. So, by all means keep them coming and I'll challenge myself to stop living in the 90s and 2000s and actually understand how to read a wrc+.
The original argument was about Salvy and Lopez. bWAR says Salvy was the better player, fWAR gives it to Lopez. Baseball insiders who evaluate talent to adjust their rosters can use whatever means they like to determine who they want, but I would wager 9 out of 10 baseball fans, would give it to Salvy.
To throw my entire argument on its ear. I'd prefer a Lopez finest because I've already got 2 solid Salvy Cards. Though I wouldn't mind one with maxed out power
Great response. I fall in the same side of fan as you. But I also would love to see the shift abolished , and many other things changed that the baseball metric world have influenced.
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I can only guess that the Cardinals have an incoming Goldschmidt.
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@dolenz_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
I can only guess that the Cardinals have an incoming Goldschmidt.
I definitely think you're right, given the cards that are out for Arenado, Waino, Flaherty and O'Neil. Bader is the other option but ge has a Monthly and Goldy had the better season.
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@sullysull08_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@matrixtn_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
TA 5, starts next Fri
Finest actually starts on Tuesday I believe but TA5 is Friday
Finest is TA5, which starts Friday.
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@tusken_raiderz said in TA 5 Reveals:
@sullysull08_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@matrixtn_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
TA 5, starts next Fri
Finest actually starts on Tuesday I believe but TA5 is Friday
Finest is TA5, which starts Friday.
On the schedule it says there are some Finest releases on Tuesday and Thursday. I'm guessing another player program or something like that.
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Goldschmidt announced for Cards
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Man Friday is gonna be fun I can’t wait
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@lazy_toast_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
Man Friday is gonna be fun I can’t wait
Agreed, I like that we get a few early like Posey on Friday and apparently more finest on Tues and Thurs according to the schedule. Should be fun.
Goldy and Tatis are obviously great choices and I look forward to those but Iglesias is the dark horse so far, another solid BP option at this stage.
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@lazy_toast_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
Man Friday is gonna be fun I can’t wait
Did you think you would ever be saying that about the show in November? Haha
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so Tatis is the finest collection reward, or is he just the Padres TA5 card?
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@oreorockstar_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@sevisonjn_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@skarmaen_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
I think they should just give the best players finest cards and not worry at all about how many diamonds they might already have.
Salvador Perez should be the KC finest, Mullins the BAL finest, etc. I don't care if they'll have 5 cards. It's mid-November, the MLB season is over and I'd much rather just have the best of the best.
I agree... Finest should be best player performance on each team in 2021.
The best player performance on the Royals was Nicky Lopez though, not Perez.
I can’t tell if you are kidding, but not sure how you say a guy with 150 hits, 2 homers and a .300 averages is better than a catcher who hits over .279 and sets a catcher record with 48 homers.
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@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@ericulous1_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@oreorockstar_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@sevisonjn_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@skarmaen_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
I think they should just give the best players finest cards and not worry at all about how many diamonds they might already have.
Salvador Perez should be the KC finest, Mullins the BAL finest, etc. I don't care if they'll have 5 cards. It's mid-November, the MLB season is over and I'd much rather just have the best of the best.
I agree... Finest should be best player performance on each team in 2021.
The best player performance on the Royals was Nicky Lopez though, not Perez.
I can’t tell if you are kidding, but not sure how you say a guy with 150 hits, 2 homers and a .300 averages is better than a catcher who hits over .279 and sets a catcher record with 48 homers.
Of course Perez was better offensively, but as a whole he was a worse player.
Lopez was an entire win better than Perez, 4.4 fWAR vs 3.4 fWAR.
This is where fWAR completely loses me. In no way shape or form was Nicky Lopez better or more important than Salvador Perez. You mentioned in another thread that Salvy had a bad defensive year....so how was he nominated as a finalist for the gold glove? I know gold gloves aren't a perfect measure but if we think those are skewed how do we know fWAR is whatever they tell us?
No I'm not getting all conspiracy theory here. It just makes absolutely no sense that a player with absolutely no run production (the way you win games) is better than the best run producer in the league.
Besides, according to Baseball reference Salvy was a 5.3 and Lopez was a 4.4. Why would they have a different WAR figure? And if they do, who is the governing body that has deemed fangraphs the right WAR and baseball Reference the inferior WAR.
Among catchers with at least 300 PA (30 total catchers), Perez was the worst defensively by Fangraphs’ Def. He was nominated for a gold glove because the award is as much of a popularity contest as it is an award for the best defensive player. Playing great defense with around average hitting can provide just as much value as great offense with terrible defense. You should know this, being a Cardinals/Molina fan. There’s a ton of small differences between the bWAR and fWAR formulas, so there’s always going to be cases where guys have a noticeable gap between the two. I’ll fully admit that I don’t know all the tiny nuanced details of each one. Generally speaking, fWAR is considered the better and more accurate formula for position players at least, and MLB itself seems to agree as well with them proposing to officially use fWAR as the basis for determining arbitration salaries.
This is SDS, when has defense really mattered for card selection/ratings. Example A see Tatis Jr., Fernando.
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I'm 4/4 on predictions so far!
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@oreorockstar_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@ericulous1_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@ericulous1_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@ericulous1_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@oreorockstar_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@sevisonjn_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@skarmaen_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
I think they should just give the best players finest cards and not worry at all about how many diamonds they might already have.
Salvador Perez should be the KC finest, Mullins the BAL finest, etc. I don't care if they'll have 5 cards. It's mid-November, the MLB season is over and I'd much rather just have the best of the best.
I agree... Finest should be best player performance on each team in 2021.
The best player performance on the Royals was Nicky Lopez though, not Perez.
I can’t tell if you are kidding, but not sure how you say a guy with 150 hits, 2 homers and a .300 averages is better than a catcher who hits over .279 and sets a catcher record with 48 homers.
Of course Perez was better offensively, but as a whole he was a worse player.
Lopez was an entire win better than Perez, 4.4 fWAR vs 3.4 fWAR.
This is where fWAR completely loses me. In no way shape or form was Nicky Lopez better or more important than Salvador Perez. You mentioned in another thread that Salvy had a bad defensive year....so how was he nominated as a finalist for the gold glove? I know gold gloves aren't a perfect measure but if we think those are skewed how do we know fWAR is whatever they tell us?
No I'm not getting all conspiracy theory here. It just makes absolutely no sense that a player with absolutely no run production (the way you win games) is better than the best run producer in the league.
Besides, according to Baseball reference Salvy was a 5.3 and Lopez was a 4.4. Why would they have a different WAR figure? And if they do, who is the governing body that has deemed fangraphs the right WAR and baseball Reference the inferior WAR.
Among catchers with at least 300 PA (30 total catchers), Perez was the worst defensively by Fangraphs’ Def. He was nominated for a gold glove because the award is as much of a popularity contest as it is an award for the best defensive player. Playing great defense with around average hitting can provide just as much value as great offense with terrible defense. You should know this, being a Cardinals/Molina fan. There’s a ton of small differences between the bWAR and fWAR formulas, so there’s always going to be cases where guys have a noticeable gap between the two. I’ll fully admit that I don’t know all the tiny nuanced details of each one. Generally speaking, fWAR is considered the better and more accurate formula for position players at least, and MLB itself seems to agree as well with them proposing to officially use fWAR as the basis for determining arbitration salaries.
But this is where to me it's challenging to follow it blindly. So we're saying Baseball accepts fWAR as the more accurate and definitive formula and yet, it's the same Baseball that can't be trusted to run a fair gold glove competition and though it explicitly states in the rules that offense should hold no bareing, we assume it's a popularity contest. And yet Jacob Stallings a player most casual fans have never heard of, wins over Molina and Realmuto, two of the most popular players of the game. And they were right, Stallings deserved to win.
So are we really saying that gold gloves are a pure sham and have no credibility, then I say baseball choosing fWAR has the same credibility,It'sthe same brain trust executing these decisions
Salvy isn't some offense first catcher, he's won 5 gold gloves (4 more than Posey) and I'm sorry but I can't believe the system is so corrupt that a below average to poor fielder has won the top award at the hardest position in his league 5 times and was a finalist 3 others.
At this point I'm not even sure which argument I'm fighting hahahahw. I just wish we could use analytics and keep them in house but not rely solely on them. In many ways they have helped smaller markets evaluate players more pragmatically and have improved the competitive balance of the sport. In other ways, they have really damaged and deromanticized a beautiful game and turned it into a 3 possible outcome sport where nobody can bunt, move runners, hit for average or produce runs on a consistent basis. They are too busy focusing on launch angle and OBP. I'm not blaming this on analytics completely, but it's certainly played a role. It's why we had a grand total of 13 players hit over .300. That is not the beautiful game I grew up with.
In short. fWAR has it's place, but just as baseball chooses to value other aspects of a players game, so may we choose to determine a players worth in other ways than the holy fWAR.
The difference is that awards like gold gloves are voted on by individual people, who may or may not actually factor defensive metrics into their vote. If MLB used fWAR for arbitration hearings, that has nothing to do with subjective voting. I never said gold gloves are a sham, but the best defensive player at each doesn’t always win. Derek Jeter won 5 of them, despite being one of the worst defensive shortstops in the history of the game. And you’re not going to like this, but Ryan McMahon had two times more DRS and a higher UZR at 3B this year than Arenado. This was the worst defensive season of Perez’s career, and over two times worse than his next worst season. Statistically, Perez shouldn’t have a single gold glove. There were multiple better defensive catchers in the AL every single year Perez won a gold glove. And just for clarification, Posey has 6 seasons that were much, much better than Perez’s best defensive season, as well as this year being equal to it. A good defensive player can have bad defensive seasons the exact same way a good hitter can have bad offensive seasons though.
One of the best things about the metrics we have now is that they show a player doesn’t need to hit .300 to be just as valuable or more than a guy that does. They’ve also shown that a player can be not that great of a hitter despite hitting .300. I mean, Nicky Lopez hit .300 this year while Perez only hit .273. By your argument, would you not consider him a better hitter than people like Perez, Votto, Grandal, Ohtani, Betts, etc.? Personally, I think players being able to put up value in a variety of ways is much more beautiful than having to hit .300 to be considered an elite hitter.
In short, fWAR and other metrics (both offensive and defensive) have substantially improved player evaluation, showing that guys like Gallo and Grandal can provide just as much value as a .300 hitter, and also showing what a great defensive player actually looks like as opposed to guys that only look good using fielding percentage or the eye test.
I'm not really disagreeing with what you're saying. There is no question modern metrics have revolutionized the way talent is evaluated which give teams Iike the Rays and A's a fighting chance against the wall street spenders. But if I'm being honest, the game today is nowhere near as exciting as it was 2-3-4 decades ago, at least not to me. But if it is to you, that is actually comforting to know and maybe I'm the one missing out. I still watch at an avid rate and try to appreciate these stats that confound me because I was an English major.
Personally, I miss a good old fashioned batting race. I remember going to a game when I was 7 between the Giants and Padres with nothing to play for but Will Clark and Tony Gwynn went down to the last at bat to determine who won the batting title. This year, I didn't know who the batting leaders were until the season was over and I looked it up. And I pay far more attention now than I did when I was 7 and Gwynn got a single in his last at bat and a hug from Will the Thrill when he returned to first.
Yes, I agree baseball should be more complex than just hit .300, 30 HR, 100 RBI, though there is always something beautiful about those round sacred numbers. But absolutely, I love a player that provides value all over the field. The problem I see is how one dimensional the game has gotten. I watched the Padres lose a game in extras to the Dodgers despite having the winning run on 3rd with less than 2 outs, 3 consecutive innings and 3 times the hitter who was trying to get the perfect launch angle struck out because the fundamentals no longer matter. I'm not saying that's the fault of metrics, but it's a factor.
I'm never going to win an argument with you because you are far more knowledgeable about the modern metrics and actually I'm greatful to see there are people who care that deeply. That is also what is beautiful about the game, two completely different fans (at least in the way we study the game) can both write out these long passionate arguments. So, by all means keep them coming and I'll challenge myself to stop living in the 90s and 2000s and actually understand how to read a wrc+.
The original argument was about Salvy and Lopez. bWAR says Salvy was the better player, fWAR gives it to Lopez. Baseball insiders who evaluate talent to adjust their rosters can use whatever means they like to determine who they want, but I would wager 9 out of 10 baseball fans, would give it to Salvy.
To throw my entire argument on its ear. I'd prefer a Lopez finest because I've already got 2 solid Salvy Cards. Though I wouldn't mind one with maxed out power
Great response. I fall in the same side of fan as you. But I also would love to see the shift abolished , and many other things changed that the baseball metric world have influenced.
Only way the Shift gets abolished is guys learn to hit the other way, that is not how they play the game today. You do see players going the other way more in the PS this year against the shift.
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@dbarmonstar_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@oreorockstar_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@ericulous1_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@ericulous1_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@ericulous1_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@oreorockstar_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@sevisonjn_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@skarmaen_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
I think they should just give the best players finest cards and not worry at all about how many diamonds they might already have.
Salvador Perez should be the KC finest, Mullins the BAL finest, etc. I don't care if they'll have 5 cards. It's mid-November, the MLB season is over and I'd much rather just have the best of the best.
I agree... Finest should be best player performance on each team in 2021.
The best player performance on the Royals was Nicky Lopez though, not Perez.
I can’t tell if you are kidding, but not sure how you say a guy with 150 hits, 2 homers and a .300 averages is better than a catcher who hits over .279 and sets a catcher record with 48 homers.
Of course Perez was better offensively, but as a whole he was a worse player.
Lopez was an entire win better than Perez, 4.4 fWAR vs 3.4 fWAR.
This is where fWAR completely loses me. In no way shape or form was Nicky Lopez better or more important than Salvador Perez. You mentioned in another thread that Salvy had a bad defensive year....so how was he nominated as a finalist for the gold glove? I know gold gloves aren't a perfect measure but if we think those are skewed how do we know fWAR is whatever they tell us?
No I'm not getting all conspiracy theory here. It just makes absolutely no sense that a player with absolutely no run production (the way you win games) is better than the best run producer in the league.
Besides, according to Baseball reference Salvy was a 5.3 and Lopez was a 4.4. Why would they have a different WAR figure? And if they do, who is the governing body that has deemed fangraphs the right WAR and baseball Reference the inferior WAR.
Among catchers with at least 300 PA (30 total catchers), Perez was the worst defensively by Fangraphs’ Def. He was nominated for a gold glove because the award is as much of a popularity contest as it is an award for the best defensive player. Playing great defense with around average hitting can provide just as much value as great offense with terrible defense. You should know this, being a Cardinals/Molina fan. There’s a ton of small differences between the bWAR and fWAR formulas, so there’s always going to be cases where guys have a noticeable gap between the two. I’ll fully admit that I don’t know all the tiny nuanced details of each one. Generally speaking, fWAR is considered the better and more accurate formula for position players at least, and MLB itself seems to agree as well with them proposing to officially use fWAR as the basis for determining arbitration salaries.
But this is where to me it's challenging to follow it blindly. So we're saying Baseball accepts fWAR as the more accurate and definitive formula and yet, it's the same Baseball that can't be trusted to run a fair gold glove competition and though it explicitly states in the rules that offense should hold no bareing, we assume it's a popularity contest. And yet Jacob Stallings a player most casual fans have never heard of, wins over Molina and Realmuto, two of the most popular players of the game. And they were right, Stallings deserved to win.
So are we really saying that gold gloves are a pure sham and have no credibility, then I say baseball choosing fWAR has the same credibility,It'sthe same brain trust executing these decisions
Salvy isn't some offense first catcher, he's won 5 gold gloves (4 more than Posey) and I'm sorry but I can't believe the system is so corrupt that a below average to poor fielder has won the top award at the hardest position in his league 5 times and was a finalist 3 others.
At this point I'm not even sure which argument I'm fighting hahahahw. I just wish we could use analytics and keep them in house but not rely solely on them. In many ways they have helped smaller markets evaluate players more pragmatically and have improved the competitive balance of the sport. In other ways, they have really damaged and deromanticized a beautiful game and turned it into a 3 possible outcome sport where nobody can bunt, move runners, hit for average or produce runs on a consistent basis. They are too busy focusing on launch angle and OBP. I'm not blaming this on analytics completely, but it's certainly played a role. It's why we had a grand total of 13 players hit over .300. That is not the beautiful game I grew up with.
In short. fWAR has it's place, but just as baseball chooses to value other aspects of a players game, so may we choose to determine a players worth in other ways than the holy fWAR.
The difference is that awards like gold gloves are voted on by individual people, who may or may not actually factor defensive metrics into their vote. If MLB used fWAR for arbitration hearings, that has nothing to do with subjective voting. I never said gold gloves are a sham, but the best defensive player at each doesn’t always win. Derek Jeter won 5 of them, despite being one of the worst defensive shortstops in the history of the game. And you’re not going to like this, but Ryan McMahon had two times more DRS and a higher UZR at 3B this year than Arenado. This was the worst defensive season of Perez’s career, and over two times worse than his next worst season. Statistically, Perez shouldn’t have a single gold glove. There were multiple better defensive catchers in the AL every single year Perez won a gold glove. And just for clarification, Posey has 6 seasons that were much, much better than Perez’s best defensive season, as well as this year being equal to it. A good defensive player can have bad defensive seasons the exact same way a good hitter can have bad offensive seasons though.
One of the best things about the metrics we have now is that they show a player doesn’t need to hit .300 to be just as valuable or more than a guy that does. They’ve also shown that a player can be not that great of a hitter despite hitting .300. I mean, Nicky Lopez hit .300 this year while Perez only hit .273. By your argument, would you not consider him a better hitter than people like Perez, Votto, Grandal, Ohtani, Betts, etc.? Personally, I think players being able to put up value in a variety of ways is much more beautiful than having to hit .300 to be considered an elite hitter.
In short, fWAR and other metrics (both offensive and defensive) have substantially improved player evaluation, showing that guys like Gallo and Grandal can provide just as much value as a .300 hitter, and also showing what a great defensive player actually looks like as opposed to guys that only look good using fielding percentage or the eye test.
I'm not really disagreeing with what you're saying. There is no question modern metrics have revolutionized the way talent is evaluated which give teams Iike the Rays and A's a fighting chance against the wall street spenders. But if I'm being honest, the game today is nowhere near as exciting as it was 2-3-4 decades ago, at least not to me. But if it is to you, that is actually comforting to know and maybe I'm the one missing out. I still watch at an avid rate and try to appreciate these stats that confound me because I was an English major.
Personally, I miss a good old fashioned batting race. I remember going to a game when I was 7 between the Giants and Padres with nothing to play for but Will Clark and Tony Gwynn went down to the last at bat to determine who won the batting title. This year, I didn't know who the batting leaders were until the season was over and I looked it up. And I pay far more attention now than I did when I was 7 and Gwynn got a single in his last at bat and a hug from Will the Thrill when he returned to first.
Yes, I agree baseball should be more complex than just hit .300, 30 HR, 100 RBI, though there is always something beautiful about those round sacred numbers. But absolutely, I love a player that provides value all over the field. The problem I see is how one dimensional the game has gotten. I watched the Padres lose a game in extras to the Dodgers despite having the winning run on 3rd with less than 2 outs, 3 consecutive innings and 3 times the hitter who was trying to get the perfect launch angle struck out because the fundamentals no longer matter. I'm not saying that's the fault of metrics, but it's a factor.
I'm never going to win an argument with you because you are far more knowledgeable about the modern metrics and actually I'm greatful to see there are people who care that deeply. That is also what is beautiful about the game, two completely different fans (at least in the way we study the game) can both write out these long passionate arguments. So, by all means keep them coming and I'll challenge myself to stop living in the 90s and 2000s and actually understand how to read a wrc+.
The original argument was about Salvy and Lopez. bWAR says Salvy was the better player, fWAR gives it to Lopez. Baseball insiders who evaluate talent to adjust their rosters can use whatever means they like to determine who they want, but I would wager 9 out of 10 baseball fans, would give it to Salvy.
To throw my entire argument on its ear. I'd prefer a Lopez finest because I've already got 2 solid Salvy Cards. Though I wouldn't mind one with maxed out power
Great response. I fall in the same side of fan as you. But I also would love to see the shift abolished , and many other things changed that the baseball metric world have influenced.
Only way the Shift gets abolished is guys learn to hit the other way, that is not how they play the game today. You do see players going the other way more in the PS this year against the shift.
That used to be my take as well, why not just go the other way like Tony Gwynn. Then I had the chance to get to know several major league players and batting coaches and discussed it with them. After those conversations , my view chanced. ….MLB is exploring requiring to have two infielders on each side of second base….along with some other more strange tweaks to the game. Whether they ever happen or not, I have no idea.
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@oreorockstar_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@dbarmonstar_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@oreorockstar_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@ericulous1_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@ericulous1_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@ericulous1_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@oreorockstar_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@sevisonjn_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@skarmaen_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
I think they should just give the best players finest cards and not worry at all about how many diamonds they might already have.
Salvador Perez should be the KC finest, Mullins the BAL finest, etc. I don't care if they'll have 5 cards. It's mid-November, the MLB season is over and I'd much rather just have the best of the best.
I agree... Finest should be best player performance on each team in 2021.
The best player performance on the Royals was Nicky Lopez though, not Perez.
I can’t tell if you are kidding, but not sure how you say a guy with 150 hits, 2 homers and a .300 averages is better than a catcher who hits over .279 and sets a catcher record with 48 homers.
Of course Perez was better offensively, but as a whole he was a worse player.
Lopez was an entire win better than Perez, 4.4 fWAR vs 3.4 fWAR.
This is where fWAR completely loses me. In no way shape or form was Nicky Lopez better or more important than Salvador Perez. You mentioned in another thread that Salvy had a bad defensive year....so how was he nominated as a finalist for the gold glove? I know gold gloves aren't a perfect measure but if we think those are skewed how do we know fWAR is whatever they tell us?
No I'm not getting all conspiracy theory here. It just makes absolutely no sense that a player with absolutely no run production (the way you win games) is better than the best run producer in the league.
Besides, according to Baseball reference Salvy was a 5.3 and Lopez was a 4.4. Why would they have a different WAR figure? And if they do, who is the governing body that has deemed fangraphs the right WAR and baseball Reference the inferior WAR.
Among catchers with at least 300 PA (30 total catchers), Perez was the worst defensively by Fangraphs’ Def. He was nominated for a gold glove because the award is as much of a popularity contest as it is an award for the best defensive player. Playing great defense with around average hitting can provide just as much value as great offense with terrible defense. You should know this, being a Cardinals/Molina fan. There’s a ton of small differences between the bWAR and fWAR formulas, so there’s always going to be cases where guys have a noticeable gap between the two. I’ll fully admit that I don’t know all the tiny nuanced details of each one. Generally speaking, fWAR is considered the better and more accurate formula for position players at least, and MLB itself seems to agree as well with them proposing to officially use fWAR as the basis for determining arbitration salaries.
But this is where to me it's challenging to follow it blindly. So we're saying Baseball accepts fWAR as the more accurate and definitive formula and yet, it's the same Baseball that can't be trusted to run a fair gold glove competition and though it explicitly states in the rules that offense should hold no bareing, we assume it's a popularity contest. And yet Jacob Stallings a player most casual fans have never heard of, wins over Molina and Realmuto, two of the most popular players of the game. And they were right, Stallings deserved to win.
So are we really saying that gold gloves are a pure sham and have no credibility, then I say baseball choosing fWAR has the same credibility,It'sthe same brain trust executing these decisions
Salvy isn't some offense first catcher, he's won 5 gold gloves (4 more than Posey) and I'm sorry but I can't believe the system is so corrupt that a below average to poor fielder has won the top award at the hardest position in his league 5 times and was a finalist 3 others.
At this point I'm not even sure which argument I'm fighting hahahahw. I just wish we could use analytics and keep them in house but not rely solely on them. In many ways they have helped smaller markets evaluate players more pragmatically and have improved the competitive balance of the sport. In other ways, they have really damaged and deromanticized a beautiful game and turned it into a 3 possible outcome sport where nobody can bunt, move runners, hit for average or produce runs on a consistent basis. They are too busy focusing on launch angle and OBP. I'm not blaming this on analytics completely, but it's certainly played a role. It's why we had a grand total of 13 players hit over .300. That is not the beautiful game I grew up with.
In short. fWAR has it's place, but just as baseball chooses to value other aspects of a players game, so may we choose to determine a players worth in other ways than the holy fWAR.
The difference is that awards like gold gloves are voted on by individual people, who may or may not actually factor defensive metrics into their vote. If MLB used fWAR for arbitration hearings, that has nothing to do with subjective voting. I never said gold gloves are a sham, but the best defensive player at each doesn’t always win. Derek Jeter won 5 of them, despite being one of the worst defensive shortstops in the history of the game. And you’re not going to like this, but Ryan McMahon had two times more DRS and a higher UZR at 3B this year than Arenado. This was the worst defensive season of Perez’s career, and over two times worse than his next worst season. Statistically, Perez shouldn’t have a single gold glove. There were multiple better defensive catchers in the AL every single year Perez won a gold glove. And just for clarification, Posey has 6 seasons that were much, much better than Perez’s best defensive season, as well as this year being equal to it. A good defensive player can have bad defensive seasons the exact same way a good hitter can have bad offensive seasons though.
One of the best things about the metrics we have now is that they show a player doesn’t need to hit .300 to be just as valuable or more than a guy that does. They’ve also shown that a player can be not that great of a hitter despite hitting .300. I mean, Nicky Lopez hit .300 this year while Perez only hit .273. By your argument, would you not consider him a better hitter than people like Perez, Votto, Grandal, Ohtani, Betts, etc.? Personally, I think players being able to put up value in a variety of ways is much more beautiful than having to hit .300 to be considered an elite hitter.
In short, fWAR and other metrics (both offensive and defensive) have substantially improved player evaluation, showing that guys like Gallo and Grandal can provide just as much value as a .300 hitter, and also showing what a great defensive player actually looks like as opposed to guys that only look good using fielding percentage or the eye test.
I'm not really disagreeing with what you're saying. There is no question modern metrics have revolutionized the way talent is evaluated which give teams Iike the Rays and A's a fighting chance against the wall street spenders. But if I'm being honest, the game today is nowhere near as exciting as it was 2-3-4 decades ago, at least not to me. But if it is to you, that is actually comforting to know and maybe I'm the one missing out. I still watch at an avid rate and try to appreciate these stats that confound me because I was an English major.
Personally, I miss a good old fashioned batting race. I remember going to a game when I was 7 between the Giants and Padres with nothing to play for but Will Clark and Tony Gwynn went down to the last at bat to determine who won the batting title. This year, I didn't know who the batting leaders were until the season was over and I looked it up. And I pay far more attention now than I did when I was 7 and Gwynn got a single in his last at bat and a hug from Will the Thrill when he returned to first.
Yes, I agree baseball should be more complex than just hit .300, 30 HR, 100 RBI, though there is always something beautiful about those round sacred numbers. But absolutely, I love a player that provides value all over the field. The problem I see is how one dimensional the game has gotten. I watched the Padres lose a game in extras to the Dodgers despite having the winning run on 3rd with less than 2 outs, 3 consecutive innings and 3 times the hitter who was trying to get the perfect launch angle struck out because the fundamentals no longer matter. I'm not saying that's the fault of metrics, but it's a factor.
I'm never going to win an argument with you because you are far more knowledgeable about the modern metrics and actually I'm greatful to see there are people who care that deeply. That is also what is beautiful about the game, two completely different fans (at least in the way we study the game) can both write out these long passionate arguments. So, by all means keep them coming and I'll challenge myself to stop living in the 90s and 2000s and actually understand how to read a wrc+.
The original argument was about Salvy and Lopez. bWAR says Salvy was the better player, fWAR gives it to Lopez. Baseball insiders who evaluate talent to adjust their rosters can use whatever means they like to determine who they want, but I would wager 9 out of 10 baseball fans, would give it to Salvy.
To throw my entire argument on its ear. I'd prefer a Lopez finest because I've already got 2 solid Salvy Cards. Though I wouldn't mind one with maxed out power
Great response. I fall in the same side of fan as you. But I also would love to see the shift abolished , and many other things changed that the baseball metric world have influenced.
Only way the Shift gets abolished is guys learn to hit the other way, that is not how they play the game today. You do see players going the other way more in the PS this year against the shift.
That used to be my take as well, why not just go the other way like Tony Gwynn. Then I had the chance to get to know several major league players and batting coaches and discussed it with them. After those conversations , my view chanced. ….MLB is exploring requiring to have two infielders on each side of second base….along with some other more strange tweaks to the game. Whether they ever happen or not, I have no idea.
Yeah they are trying to turn baseball into Football and basket ball for offense over defense and take strategy out of the game, I do not like the pitchers have to pitch to three batter rule either, Baseball is not meant to have a time restraint, it is a strategy chess type of sport, I get the changes for safety and protecting the players IE the Posey Rule and the slide rule especially at second base, I did not like the rule change but I understand it. I do not even watch football or basketball any more,
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Arizona Diamondbacks - Ketel Marte
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@dbarmonstar_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@oreorockstar_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@ericulous1_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@ericulous1_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@ericulous1_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@oreorockstar_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@sevisonjn_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@skarmaen_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
I think they should just give the best players finest cards and not worry at all about how many diamonds they might already have.
Salvador Perez should be the KC finest, Mullins the BAL finest, etc. I don't care if they'll have 5 cards. It's mid-November, the MLB season is over and I'd much rather just have the best of the best.
I agree... Finest should be best player performance on each team in 2021.
The best player performance on the Royals was Nicky Lopez though, not Perez.
I can’t tell if you are kidding, but not sure how you say a guy with 150 hits, 2 homers and a .300 averages is better than a catcher who hits over .279 and sets a catcher record with 48 homers.
Of course Perez was better offensively, but as a whole he was a worse player.
Lopez was an entire win better than Perez, 4.4 fWAR vs 3.4 fWAR.
This is where fWAR completely loses me. In no way shape or form was Nicky Lopez better or more important than Salvador Perez. You mentioned in another thread that Salvy had a bad defensive year....so how was he nominated as a finalist for the gold glove? I know gold gloves aren't a perfect measure but if we think those are skewed how do we know fWAR is whatever they tell us?
No I'm not getting all conspiracy theory here. It just makes absolutely no sense that a player with absolutely no run production (the way you win games) is better than the best run producer in the league.
Besides, according to Baseball reference Salvy was a 5.3 and Lopez was a 4.4. Why would they have a different WAR figure? And if they do, who is the governing body that has deemed fangraphs the right WAR and baseball Reference the inferior WAR.
Among catchers with at least 300 PA (30 total catchers), Perez was the worst defensively by Fangraphs’ Def. He was nominated for a gold glove because the award is as much of a popularity contest as it is an award for the best defensive player. Playing great defense with around average hitting can provide just as much value as great offense with terrible defense. You should know this, being a Cardinals/Molina fan. There’s a ton of small differences between the bWAR and fWAR formulas, so there’s always going to be cases where guys have a noticeable gap between the two. I’ll fully admit that I don’t know all the tiny nuanced details of each one. Generally speaking, fWAR is considered the better and more accurate formula for position players at least, and MLB itself seems to agree as well with them proposing to officially use fWAR as the basis for determining arbitration salaries.
But this is where to me it's challenging to follow it blindly. So we're saying Baseball accepts fWAR as the more accurate and definitive formula and yet, it's the same Baseball that can't be trusted to run a fair gold glove competition and though it explicitly states in the rules that offense should hold no bareing, we assume it's a popularity contest. And yet Jacob Stallings a player most casual fans have never heard of, wins over Molina and Realmuto, two of the most popular players of the game. And they were right, Stallings deserved to win.
So are we really saying that gold gloves are a pure sham and have no credibility, then I say baseball choosing fWAR has the same credibility,It'sthe same brain trust executing these decisions
Salvy isn't some offense first catcher, he's won 5 gold gloves (4 more than Posey) and I'm sorry but I can't believe the system is so corrupt that a below average to poor fielder has won the top award at the hardest position in his league 5 times and was a finalist 3 others.
At this point I'm not even sure which argument I'm fighting hahahahw. I just wish we could use analytics and keep them in house but not rely solely on them. In many ways they have helped smaller markets evaluate players more pragmatically and have improved the competitive balance of the sport. In other ways, they have really damaged and deromanticized a beautiful game and turned it into a 3 possible outcome sport where nobody can bunt, move runners, hit for average or produce runs on a consistent basis. They are too busy focusing on launch angle and OBP. I'm not blaming this on analytics completely, but it's certainly played a role. It's why we had a grand total of 13 players hit over .300. That is not the beautiful game I grew up with.
In short. fWAR has it's place, but just as baseball chooses to value other aspects of a players game, so may we choose to determine a players worth in other ways than the holy fWAR.
The difference is that awards like gold gloves are voted on by individual people, who may or may not actually factor defensive metrics into their vote. If MLB used fWAR for arbitration hearings, that has nothing to do with subjective voting. I never said gold gloves are a sham, but the best defensive player at each doesn’t always win. Derek Jeter won 5 of them, despite being one of the worst defensive shortstops in the history of the game. And you’re not going to like this, but Ryan McMahon had two times more DRS and a higher UZR at 3B this year than Arenado. This was the worst defensive season of Perez’s career, and over two times worse than his next worst season. Statistically, Perez shouldn’t have a single gold glove. There were multiple better defensive catchers in the AL every single year Perez won a gold glove. And just for clarification, Posey has 6 seasons that were much, much better than Perez’s best defensive season, as well as this year being equal to it. A good defensive player can have bad defensive seasons the exact same way a good hitter can have bad offensive seasons though.
One of the best things about the metrics we have now is that they show a player doesn’t need to hit .300 to be just as valuable or more than a guy that does. They’ve also shown that a player can be not that great of a hitter despite hitting .300. I mean, Nicky Lopez hit .300 this year while Perez only hit .273. By your argument, would you not consider him a better hitter than people like Perez, Votto, Grandal, Ohtani, Betts, etc.? Personally, I think players being able to put up value in a variety of ways is much more beautiful than having to hit .300 to be considered an elite hitter.
In short, fWAR and other metrics (both offensive and defensive) have substantially improved player evaluation, showing that guys like Gallo and Grandal can provide just as much value as a .300 hitter, and also showing what a great defensive player actually looks like as opposed to guys that only look good using fielding percentage or the eye test.
I'm not really disagreeing with what you're saying. There is no question modern metrics have revolutionized the way talent is evaluated which give teams Iike the Rays and A's a fighting chance against the wall street spenders. But if I'm being honest, the game today is nowhere near as exciting as it was 2-3-4 decades ago, at least not to me. But if it is to you, that is actually comforting to know and maybe I'm the one missing out. I still watch at an avid rate and try to appreciate these stats that confound me because I was an English major.
Personally, I miss a good old fashioned batting race. I remember going to a game when I was 7 between the Giants and Padres with nothing to play for but Will Clark and Tony Gwynn went down to the last at bat to determine who won the batting title. This year, I didn't know who the batting leaders were until the season was over and I looked it up. And I pay far more attention now than I did when I was 7 and Gwynn got a single in his last at bat and a hug from Will the Thrill when he returned to first.
Yes, I agree baseball should be more complex than just hit .300, 30 HR, 100 RBI, though there is always something beautiful about those round sacred numbers. But absolutely, I love a player that provides value all over the field. The problem I see is how one dimensional the game has gotten. I watched the Padres lose a game in extras to the Dodgers despite having the winning run on 3rd with less than 2 outs, 3 consecutive innings and 3 times the hitter who was trying to get the perfect launch angle struck out because the fundamentals no longer matter. I'm not saying that's the fault of metrics, but it's a factor.
I'm never going to win an argument with you because you are far more knowledgeable about the modern metrics and actually I'm greatful to see there are people who care that deeply. That is also what is beautiful about the game, two completely different fans (at least in the way we study the game) can both write out these long passionate arguments. So, by all means keep them coming and I'll challenge myself to stop living in the 90s and 2000s and actually understand how to read a wrc+.
The original argument was about Salvy and Lopez. bWAR says Salvy was the better player, fWAR gives it to Lopez. Baseball insiders who evaluate talent to adjust their rosters can use whatever means they like to determine who they want, but I would wager 9 out of 10 baseball fans, would give it to Salvy.
To throw my entire argument on its ear. I'd prefer a Lopez finest because I've already got 2 solid Salvy Cards. Though I wouldn't mind one with maxed out power
Great response. I fall in the same side of fan as you. But I also would love to see the shift abolished , and many other things changed that the baseball metric world have influenced.
Only way the Shift gets abolished is guys learn to hit the other way
You could just hit it over the shift and into the bleachers
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@texaskid789_xbl said in TA 5 Reveals:
@dbarmonstar_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@oreorockstar_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@ericulous1_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@ericulous1_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@ericulous1_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@oreorockstar_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@jogger171717_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@sevisonjn_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
@skarmaen_psn said in TA 5 Reveals:
I think they should just give the best players finest cards and not worry at all about how many diamonds they might already have.
Salvador Perez should be the KC finest, Mullins the BAL finest, etc. I don't care if they'll have 5 cards. It's mid-November, the MLB season is over and I'd much rather just have the best of the best.
I agree... Finest should be best player performance on each team in 2021.
The best player performance on the Royals was Nicky Lopez though, not Perez.
I can’t tell if you are kidding, but not sure how you say a guy with 150 hits, 2 homers and a .300 averages is better than a catcher who hits over .279 and sets a catcher record with 48 homers.
Of course Perez was better offensively, but as a whole he was a worse player.
Lopez was an entire win better than Perez, 4.4 fWAR vs 3.4 fWAR.
This is where fWAR completely loses me. In no way shape or form was Nicky Lopez better or more important than Salvador Perez. You mentioned in another thread that Salvy had a bad defensive year....so how was he nominated as a finalist for the gold glove? I know gold gloves aren't a perfect measure but if we think those are skewed how do we know fWAR is whatever they tell us?
No I'm not getting all conspiracy theory here. It just makes absolutely no sense that a player with absolutely no run production (the way you win games) is better than the best run producer in the league.
Besides, according to Baseball reference Salvy was a 5.3 and Lopez was a 4.4. Why would they have a different WAR figure? And if they do, who is the governing body that has deemed fangraphs the right WAR and baseball Reference the inferior WAR.
Among catchers with at least 300 PA (30 total catchers), Perez was the worst defensively by Fangraphs’ Def. He was nominated for a gold glove because the award is as much of a popularity contest as it is an award for the best defensive player. Playing great defense with around average hitting can provide just as much value as great offense with terrible defense. You should know this, being a Cardinals/Molina fan. There’s a ton of small differences between the bWAR and fWAR formulas, so there’s always going to be cases where guys have a noticeable gap between the two. I’ll fully admit that I don’t know all the tiny nuanced details of each one. Generally speaking, fWAR is considered the better and more accurate formula for position players at least, and MLB itself seems to agree as well with them proposing to officially use fWAR as the basis for determining arbitration salaries.
But this is where to me it's challenging to follow it blindly. So we're saying Baseball accepts fWAR as the more accurate and definitive formula and yet, it's the same Baseball that can't be trusted to run a fair gold glove competition and though it explicitly states in the rules that offense should hold no bareing, we assume it's a popularity contest. And yet Jacob Stallings a player most casual fans have never heard of, wins over Molina and Realmuto, two of the most popular players of the game. And they were right, Stallings deserved to win.
So are we really saying that gold gloves are a pure sham and have no credibility, then I say baseball choosing fWAR has the same credibility,It'sthe same brain trust executing these decisions
Salvy isn't some offense first catcher, he's won 5 gold gloves (4 more than Posey) and I'm sorry but I can't believe the system is so corrupt that a below average to poor fielder has won the top award at the hardest position in his league 5 times and was a finalist 3 others.
At this point I'm not even sure which argument I'm fighting hahahahw. I just wish we could use analytics and keep them in house but not rely solely on them. In many ways they have helped smaller markets evaluate players more pragmatically and have improved the competitive balance of the sport. In other ways, they have really damaged and deromanticized a beautiful game and turned it into a 3 possible outcome sport where nobody can bunt, move runners, hit for average or produce runs on a consistent basis. They are too busy focusing on launch angle and OBP. I'm not blaming this on analytics completely, but it's certainly played a role. It's why we had a grand total of 13 players hit over .300. That is not the beautiful game I grew up with.
In short. fWAR has it's place, but just as baseball chooses to value other aspects of a players game, so may we choose to determine a players worth in other ways than the holy fWAR.
The difference is that awards like gold gloves are voted on by individual people, who may or may not actually factor defensive metrics into their vote. If MLB used fWAR for arbitration hearings, that has nothing to do with subjective voting. I never said gold gloves are a sham, but the best defensive player at each doesn’t always win. Derek Jeter won 5 of them, despite being one of the worst defensive shortstops in the history of the game. And you’re not going to like this, but Ryan McMahon had two times more DRS and a higher UZR at 3B this year than Arenado. This was the worst defensive season of Perez’s career, and over two times worse than his next worst season. Statistically, Perez shouldn’t have a single gold glove. There were multiple better defensive catchers in the AL every single year Perez won a gold glove. And just for clarification, Posey has 6 seasons that were much, much better than Perez’s best defensive season, as well as this year being equal to it. A good defensive player can have bad defensive seasons the exact same way a good hitter can have bad offensive seasons though.
One of the best things about the metrics we have now is that they show a player doesn’t need to hit .300 to be just as valuable or more than a guy that does. They’ve also shown that a player can be not that great of a hitter despite hitting .300. I mean, Nicky Lopez hit .300 this year while Perez only hit .273. By your argument, would you not consider him a better hitter than people like Perez, Votto, Grandal, Ohtani, Betts, etc.? Personally, I think players being able to put up value in a variety of ways is much more beautiful than having to hit .300 to be considered an elite hitter.
In short, fWAR and other metrics (both offensive and defensive) have substantially improved player evaluation, showing that guys like Gallo and Grandal can provide just as much value as a .300 hitter, and also showing what a great defensive player actually looks like as opposed to guys that only look good using fielding percentage or the eye test.
I'm not really disagreeing with what you're saying. There is no question modern metrics have revolutionized the way talent is evaluated which give teams Iike the Rays and A's a fighting chance against the wall street spenders. But if I'm being honest, the game today is nowhere near as exciting as it was 2-3-4 decades ago, at least not to me. But if it is to you, that is actually comforting to know and maybe I'm the one missing out. I still watch at an avid rate and try to appreciate these stats that confound me because I was an English major.
Personally, I miss a good old fashioned batting race. I remember going to a game when I was 7 between the Giants and Padres with nothing to play for but Will Clark and Tony Gwynn went down to the last at bat to determine who won the batting title. This year, I didn't know who the batting leaders were until the season was over and I looked it up. And I pay far more attention now than I did when I was 7 and Gwynn got a single in his last at bat and a hug from Will the Thrill when he returned to first.
Yes, I agree baseball should be more complex than just hit .300, 30 HR, 100 RBI, though there is always something beautiful about those round sacred numbers. But absolutely, I love a player that provides value all over the field. The problem I see is how one dimensional the game has gotten. I watched the Padres lose a game in extras to the Dodgers despite having the winning run on 3rd with less than 2 outs, 3 consecutive innings and 3 times the hitter who was trying to get the perfect launch angle struck out because the fundamentals no longer matter. I'm not saying that's the fault of metrics, but it's a factor.
I'm never going to win an argument with you because you are far more knowledgeable about the modern metrics and actually I'm greatful to see there are people who care that deeply. That is also what is beautiful about the game, two completely different fans (at least in the way we study the game) can both write out these long passionate arguments. So, by all means keep them coming and I'll challenge myself to stop living in the 90s and 2000s and actually understand how to read a wrc+.
The original argument was about Salvy and Lopez. bWAR says Salvy was the better player, fWAR gives it to Lopez. Baseball insiders who evaluate talent to adjust their rosters can use whatever means they like to determine who they want, but I would wager 9 out of 10 baseball fans, would give it to Salvy.
To throw my entire argument on its ear. I'd prefer a Lopez finest because I've already got 2 solid Salvy Cards. Though I wouldn't mind one with maxed out power
Great response. I fall in the same side of fan as you. But I also would love to see the shift abolished , and many other things changed that the baseball metric world have influenced.
Only way the Shift gets abolished is guys learn to hit the other way
You could just hit it over the shift and into the bleachers
That already happens and teams still use the shift
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My Predictions:
Orioles: Cedric Mullins (wrong)
Red Sox: Xander Bogaerts
Yankees: Gerrit Cole
Rays: Brandon Lowe
Blue Jays: Marcus Semien
White Sox: Liam Hendriks
Indians: Jose Ramirez
Tigers: Casey Mize
Royals: Salvador Perez(correct)
Twins: Jorge Polanco
AssTros: Carlos Correa
Angles: We Already Know
Athletics: Frankie Montas
Mariners: Mitch Haniger
Rangers: Adolis Garcia
Braves: Freddie Freeman(correct)
Marlins: Sandy Alcantara
Mets: Aaron Loup
Phillies: Bryce Harper
Nationals: Juan Soto
Cubs: Frank Schwindel
Reds: Jesse Winker
Brewers: Corbin Burnes
Pirates: Bryan Reynolds
Cardinals: We Already Know
Diamondbacks: Ketel Marte
Rockies: C.J. Cron
Dodgers: Max Muncy(correct)
Giants: Brandon Crawford
(I know that most teams are going to get more that one, but thats just my list for 1 player from each team)
