Kyle Seager
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@halfbutt_PSN
So are you under the impression that Elite defenders never make a bad play throughout their entire career? I respect the passion but you are seriously blinded by your Homer bias -
@halfbutt_psn said in Kyle Seager:
Lol. Who cares.
I still think the whole, “Seager is a lame defender” and “Gallo is an elite defender” based on sabermetric stats is pretty ridiculous.
There is nothing elite about an outfielder dropping a fly ball he is camped under. There should be a stat called AHBI for “and he botches it!”.
Arenado slipped and dropped an infield pop fly last night, is he now a common defender at 3rd?
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@dolenz_psn said in Kyle Seager:
Have you been waiting 20 days for Joey Gallo to make an error?
Ha! Nice one.
Actually no, but he’s made a couple lately. I just think it’s funny that the argument is, “Gallo is an elite defender at whatever position he plays” and then irl Gallo drops two cans of corn in a span of about a week.
My issue with all of this is using stats out of context, or hyper focussing on them at the expense of other obvious things.
Kyle Seager is having a career year this year, and you guys think he is not a good hitter because his average is low and his wrC+ is 103 or whatever.
Since moneyball, things have swung too far in the opposite direction IMO.
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@halfbutt_psn said in Kyle Seager:
@dolenz_psn said in Kyle Seager:
Have you been waiting 20 days for Joey Gallo to make an error?
Ha! Nice one.
Actually no, but he’s made a couple lately. I just think it’s funny that the argument is, “Gallo is an elite defender at whatever position he plays” and then irl Gallo drops two cans of corn in a span of about a week.
My issue with all of this is using stats out of context, or hyper focussing on them at the expense of other obvious things.
Kyle Seager is having a career year this year, and you guys think he is not a good hitter because his average is low and his wrC+ is 103 or whatever.
Since moneyball, things have swung too far in the opposite direction IMO.
"using stats out of context", sounds like something half rear is doing right now.
Relax, you'll get your juiced Seager card when finest comes out. Although, if we are allowed to vote again this year, my vote is going to Luis Torrens, just so you can create a new thread about this topic
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@halfbutt_psn said in Kyle Seager:
@dolenz_psn said in Kyle Seager:
Have you been waiting 20 days for Joey Gallo to make an error?
Ha! Nice one.
Actually no, but he’s made a couple lately. I just think it’s funny that the argument is, “Gallo is an elite defender at whatever position he plays” and then irl Gallo drops two cans of corn in a span of about a week.
My issue with all of this is using stats out of context, or hyper focussing on them at the expense of other obvious things.
Kyle Seager is having a career year this year, and you guys think he is not a good hitter because his average is low and his wrC+ is 103 or whatever.
Since moneyball, things have swung too far in the opposite direction IMO.
I genuinely don’t understand what would make you think Seager is having a career year. He’s had 7 seasons that are better than this year.
2012: 108 wRC+, 3.8 fWAR
2013: 116 wRC+, 4.2 fWAR
2014: 127 wRC+, 5.2 fWAR
2015: 115 wRC+, 3.8 fWAR
2016: 134 wRC+, 5.2 fWAR
2017: 106 wRC+, 3.5 fWAR
2019: 111 wRC+, 3.0 fWAR2021: 103 wRC+, 2.8 fWAR
No one is using stats out of context, you’re just saying that because they don’t line up with your “eye test” or whatever.
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I dont think you would be a very good talent evaluator if you think this is a career year for Seager.
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He was better in 14’ and 16’ and its not even that close.
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Say all the guys looking at sabermetric stats.
Sure, he hit for better average in 2016 but that’s about it. He is the same defender he was then, pretty much, and he has exceeded his totals for home runs and rbi. Most in his career, hence “career year”.
I’m not making this [censored] up. Oh wait, home runs and rbi don’t matter. Weighted runs created. Wins above replacement.
I feel just like a guy who hit into the shift with a hard ground ball up the middle, or the pitcher who induced a ground ball to short, only to have it go into left field because the shortstop is on the other side of the diamond.
We are talking different languages. I am telling you I don’t care about wrC+ and fwar. You are saying I’m only looking at home runs and rbi which don’t matter.
This is a pointless argument.
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@halfbutt_PSN
As stated before, I would not trust you to run a franchise. I will take a guy that hats closer to .300 with 20 HRS over a guy with around a .210 average and 35 HRS any day because they are more likely to make contact and keep innings going. Seager is also tied for 20th most strikeouts with 153. I want consistency, not boom or bust -
@halfbutt_psn said in Kyle Seager:
Say all the guys looking at sabermetric stats.
Sure, he hit for better average in 2016 but that’s about it. He is the same defender he was then, pretty much, and he has exceeded his totals for home runs and rbi. Most in his career, hence “career year”.
I’m not making this [censored] up. Oh wait, home runs and rbi don’t matter. Weighted runs created. Wins above replacement.
I feel just like a guy who hit into the shift with a hard ground ball up the middle, or the pitcher who induced a ground ball to short, only to have it go into left field because the shortstop is on the other side of the diamond.
We are talking different languages. I am telling you I don’t care about wrC+ and fwar. You are saying I’m only looking at home runs and rbi which don’t matter.
This is a pointless argument.
You’re the only person that would call a player’s 2nd worst career season (not counting 2011 or 2020) a career year. How can you actually suggest this season is even close to comparable to his 2016 season? You’re just making stuff up without checking it at all.
Since you can’t wrap your head around wRC+, we’ll have to do this the long way.
2016: .278 AVG, .359 OBP, .499 SLG, 10.2 BB%, 16.0 K%
2021: .216 AVG, .291 OBP, .448 SLG, 9.1 BB%, 23.7 K%
So as you can see, he was just a much better hitter in general in 2016, which is what wRC+ tells us without having to look at all the individual numbers. -
@lucas8181_psn said in Kyle Seager:
Relax, you'll get your juiced Seager card when finest comes out.
It's already out. He has a 96 Sig Series Card.
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It’s not rocket science. When someone hits a career high in home runs and rbi, particularly when the rbi total exceeds 100, it is considered a career year.
In the pre-moneyball era, 100 rbi was a benchmark.
You guys busting out weighted runs created need to relax.
Was Seager a better player at age 28 than 34? No doubt. That’s not the point. You don’t need sabermetric stats to see that.
When a guy who exceeds his career season home run total and hits 100 rbi at 34 that’s a career year.
I don’t know why this is even being debated.
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@halfbutt_psn said in Kyle Seager:
It’s not rocket science. When someone hits a career high in home runs and rbi, particularly when the rbi total exceeds 100, it is considered a career year.
In the pre-moneyball era, 100 rbi was a benchmark.
You guys busting out weighted runs created need to relax.
Was Seager a better player at age 28 than 34? No doubt. That’s not the point. You don’t need sabermetric stats to see that.
When a guy who exceeds his career season home run total and hits 100 rbi at 34 that’s a career year.
I don’t know why this is even being debated.
You know what’s crazy? Seager finished the year with a 99 wRC+, just barely below league-average.
HR and RBI doesn’t mean anything when overall he just wasn’t a good hitter. That’s not something that can be debated at all.
There’s no benchmark for a “career year”, other than comparing it to previous seasons. And compared to Seager’s other seasons, 2021 is one of the worst of his career. If you want to use a definition for “career year” it would be the best or one of the best seasons of a players career, not one of the worst.
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@halfbutt_PSN
100 RBIs is still great but I would take a guy with higher batting average and on base percentage over a guy who had a bad year aside from his RBI numbers which for all I know as someone who didn't watch Mariners games a lot of those probably came on outs.
Also yes, it was his career high in HRs and RBIs but that doesn't necessarily make it a "career year". To me a "career year" means putting it all together not being all or nothing. Obviously that is a matter of opinion tho so it really depends on what you view as a career year -
How dare any of you use advanced stats. You all probably cheat on all your test in school too!
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@halfbutt_psn said in Kyle Seager:
It’s not rocket science. When someone hits a career high in home runs and rbi, particularly when the rbi total exceeds 100, it is considered a career year.
In the pre-moneyball era, 100 rbi was a benchmark.
You guys busting out weighted runs created need to relax.
Was Seager a better player at age 28 than 34? No doubt. That’s not the point. You don’t need sabermetric stats to see that.
When a guy who exceeds his career season home run total and hits 100 rbi at 34 that’s a career year.
I don’t know why this is even being debated.
I'd vote for his 2016 season to be the career year. Compared to this year in 2016 he had
Fewer at bats
Scored 16 more runs
38 more hits
34 more Total bases
7 more doubles
2 more triples
Walked 10 more times
Struck out 53 fewer times
BA was 66 points better
OBP was 74 points higher
SLG was 61 points higher
OPS was 136 points higherLiterally the only two categories he did better in this year was HR and RBIs and it wasn't by that much. He hit 5 more home runs and had only 2 more RBIs.
I don't think you can call this year a career year. Yes, he had career highs in 2 categories but that alone is not enough to make it a career year.
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Yeah, I’m not trying to argue that this year was better for him than 2016. I just think a player can have a career year more than once. Obviously if you had to choose his best season, I don’t think any of us would dispute it.
Sabermetric stats are cool, but I think if you asked any Mariners player or coach about how valuable Seager was to the team this year, not one would say he was a poor hitter and that his contribution was just below league average.
As to his rbi total, lots of them came from home runs (duh) and clutch knocks with RISP. As was pointed out way back, his average with RISP was above .300.
I think the main thrust of this thread for me was how lots of players in Seattle go unnoticed because they are out of the spotlight.
Was this the best season of his career? No, but I bet if you asked him and his teammates, they would agree it was a career landmark year, without question.
Some of you guys are young enough that you have come up looking at things with advanced metrics. That’s awesome, but sometimes it is good to look past the obvious. I thought that was the whole point of sabermetrics in the first place.
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I've said it before. There are fans of about 25 teams who believe that their team is overlooked. Can it be said that players go unnoticed when that actually do get attribute changes?
Look you can rail against advanced stats all day long. It won't change his ratings. We know what the attributes are. We know how players get rated. I am going to point this out again. Seager hit a lot of HRs and he has 82 power vs right and 84 against lefties. He drove in a lot of runs and he has 90 clutch.
But those three rating alone will not get him to a gold. Justin Turner is an 80. He has less overall power but much higher contact numbers.
Say what you will, but batting AVG is not some fancy advanced metric. It is used to determine the players contact rating. Seager's contact ratings are awful, and correspond with a 212 avg.
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@dolenz_psn said in Kyle Seager:
I've said it before. There are fans of about 25 teams who believe that their team is overlooked. Can it be said that players go unnoticed when that actually do get attribute changes?
Look you can rail against advanced stats all day long. It won't change his ratings. We know what the attributes are. We know how players get rated. I am going to point this out again. Seager hit a lot of HRs and he has 82 power vs right and 84 against lefties. He drove in a lot of runs and he has 90 clutch.
But those three rating alone will not get him to a gold. Justin Turner is an 80. He has less overall power but much higher contact numbers.
Say what you will, but batting AVG is not some fancy advanced metric. It is used to determine the players contact rating. Seager's contact ratings are awful, and correspond with a 212 avg.
Yeah, I think, as we covered way back in the thread, he would have needed better contact as you point out (which is not happening on a .212 average), significantly more power, and or a big defensive stat boost.
I think his silver is still a decent BR choice, and with parallel, his SS card is decent as well. I’m fine with that.
You’re right that lots of teams have players that seem to go unnoticed. Maybe next year more M’s players will get good LS cards. I’ll be looking at Ty France, Logan Gilbert, JP Crawford, etc
It seems unlikely that they will pick up Seager’s option.
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@halfbutt_psn said in Kyle Seager:
@dolenz_psn said in Kyle Seager:
I've said it before. There are fans of about 25 teams who believe that their team is overlooked. Can it be said that players go unnoticed when that actually do get attribute changes?
Look you can rail against advanced stats all day long. It won't change his ratings. We know what the attributes are. We know how players get rated. I am going to point this out again. Seager hit a lot of HRs and he has 82 power vs right and 84 against lefties. He drove in a lot of runs and he has 90 clutch.
But those three rating alone will not get him to a gold. Justin Turner is an 80. He has less overall power but much higher contact numbers.
Say what you will, but batting AVG is not some fancy advanced metric. It is used to determine the players contact rating. Seager's contact ratings are awful, and correspond with a 212 avg.
Yeah, I think, as we covered way back in the thread, he would have needed better contact as you point out (which is not happening on a .212 average), significantly more power, and or a big defensive stat boost.
I think his silver is still a decent BR choice, and with parallel, his SS card is decent as well. I’m fine with that.
You’re right that lots of teams have players that seem to go unnoticed. Maybe next year more M’s players will get good LS cards. I’ll be looking at Ty France, Logan Gilbert, JP Crawford, etc
It seems unlikely that they will pick up Seager’s option.
The Jays will take him
Muhahahaha
