Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever"
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@raesone_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Here's a little context that you always conveniently leave out to color your biased arguments;
1921 was Babe Ruth's 8th season in the Majors.
1923 was Babe Ruth's 10th season in the Majors.
1927 was Babe Ruth's 14th season in the Majors.2021 is Ohtani's 4th season in the Majors while missing significant time in each of his first 3 seasons.
I'm not even gonna go into the obvious arguments of the level of competition both played.
If you think a fat, smoking alcoholic who lit up janitors for a living was actually a better player than super athlete Shohei Ohtani, then your bias is completely laughable and you are blinded by name and legendary status.
If Ohtani has a 14 WAR season in 5-10 years I’ll stand corrected, the point was that this season is nowhere near one of the greatest ever
In that case I'll have to point out the obvious, the fact that the competition back then was not what it is today. I'm a fan of Babe Ruth's legacy and he is an icon to me as well, but I'm not wearing bias blinders like you.
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Articles are being posted every day about Ohtani having the "Greatest Season Ever". Ohtani is about to hit the impressive 9 WAR in a season club, this is an elite club that certainly gives credit to this argument, right.
Ohtani's season is on track to be 130th all-time in WAR. For my non-sabermetrics guys, that basically means it isn't the greatest season ever, it isn't even close.
But who has the greatest season ever? Babe Ruth in 1923, the man who Ohtani is often compared to, with a 14.2 WAR season, more WAR than Ohtani has amassed in his MLB career.
How about the 2nd greatest season ever? That goes to a man by the name of Babe Ruth, who in 1921 posted a 12.9 WAR season.
How about the 3rd greatest season ever? That title goes to little-known former superstar by the name of George, George Herman, or as you may know him... Babe Ruth, with 12.6 WAR in 1927.
As a matter of fact, 5 of the 10 greatest seasons ever, and 6 of the top 11, belong to Babe Ruth.
So Shohei Ohtani, "The Next Babe Ruth" is on pace to have the 130th best season ever, whereas Ruth has half of the top 10 best seasons ever, including the top 3.
Ruth had 16 years where he played at least 100 games. This Ohtani season people are calling maybe the best in MLB history, would only be Ruth's 11th best season, and a down year for him.
Let's end with some stats simpler:
Ohtani 2021 OPS: .986
Ruth career OPS: 1.164
Ruth 1919-1924 OPS: 1.262Ohtani 2021 ERA: 3.31
Babe Ruth career ERA: 2.28Let's stop comparing a .260 hitter to a dude who hit over .370 for half a dozen seasons, to a dude who hit more home runs than the entire American League in seasons, and to a dude who beats him in almost any stat. And before the argument that Ruth played in an easier time: (1) Ruth didn't chose his era and if it was so much easier, why was he vastly better than ever other player?
Come on now. You gonna compare eras? Lets be real, the level of competition in 1923 vs todays players is night and day. Hell, baseball wouldnt allow African Americans to even play or anyone that wasn't white for that matter. Ruth in todays game wouldnt be the same player.
Just forget him as a pitcher, he wouldnt make a roster spot based of his pitching so forget that idea.
As a hitter, he would of struggled. Babe was hitting slow pitch softball in 1923 compared to todays game of 100mph fastballs. Also, dont forget him being a fat and slow out of shape.
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I guess it’s somehow Babe Ruth’s fault he was born in the era he was. If it was so easy back then, why was Ruth the only player on that level. It’s a bad take whenever it’s used, guys don’t control the era they play in so to punish them for it is dumb, you compare them to their peers and whoever is statistically the best against their peers is the greatest. Not to mention if Ruth had grown up in the late 20th century with the technology, medicine, science, and training of today you have no way of knowing he wouldn’t be just as dominant.
Devaluing the competition is a bad take only used to try and overvalue newer players in sports. Happens most prevalently in baseball and basketball.
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@chandaman625_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@chuckclc_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@misfits_138_1_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
Ruth didn’t choose when he was born + if it was so easy back then why was Ruth still so much better than his peers
Guys like Feller and Koufax, Gibson, and Matthewson WERE throwing 95+ right off the farm.
Different game though.
Those guys used wicked movement and control.
Today, pitchers are such great athletes that they 100+ with movement.
Games evolve.The games evolve but when it comes down to it you compare players to the guys the played against and shouldn’t discredit old legends just because they played in a different era, that isn’t fair
I would never discredit the accomplishments of past athletes, but the argument you brought up was greatest SEASON. Ruth never pitched and hit in the same season. Cannot take parts of his career and combine them. That is why Ohtani's is so impressive. As a season, like I said before, I think people who think it is possibly the greatest have an argument.
I myself would probably take Ruths 1921 season over Ohtanis 2021.
But we have stats that value that and all 3 different variations of the stat say that Ohtani’s season isn’t even top 100 which is where credibility is lost for the argument. Pitchers have had better seasons than Ohtani’s combined season and hitters alone have had much better seasons than Ohtani’s combined season
Okay so you’re just saying all the stats that help your case so let me make this fair and explain the other side for you. In Babe’s best season pitching he had a 158ERA+ With a 6.4H/9 which both led the league & Ohtani currently has a 154ERA+ with a 6.2H/9. For their career babe was 122ERA+ with a 7.2H/9 & Ohtani is 130ERA+ with a 6.4H/9. Babe’s ERA is deceiving because he played in the dead ball era! Babe also walked 118 in his best year to Ohtani’s 39 this season. (3.3BB/9 for both guys so you can see how the game has changed) & as for hitting, babe never had more than 29HR’s and 113RBI’s In the same season as pitching. So for Ohtani to be a stronger 2 in 1 combo makes him an impressive case, & Babe’s OPS+ In the 29HR season was 217 meaning he was more than twice as good as the average hitter so you can see the type of hitters back then were nothing like now which is why babe has the highest all time OPS+ and WAR. he was just way better than his era. In that season the CY young wasn’t an award but they had a ERA pitching champ & the man who won had a 13-14 record with a 2.76 ERA and a 9.9H/9 so you can see that if this is the best pitcher that allows the fewest runs then you can suspect that it was too easy for babe and so the next few years after that is when he takes off and has the amazing hitting seasons which we’ve already seen that these can only be reached nowadays by taking steroids. So after all of this I’d have to conclude that this season by Ohtani will go down as the greatest single season by one player in baseball’s history, doesn’t make him the best player ever, yet! However it’s not the greatest single HITTING season!
This is just silly. First, you're trying to draw a conclusion of superiority by comparing numbers with a negligible difference. ERA+ takes into account when each pitcher played and where they played. It doesn't matter if Ruth played in the dead ball era. That's the point of ERA+. You're right, Babe walked 118 in 1916. He also threw 323 innings. He averaged 8 1/3 per start. Shohei averages 5.5.
No one is saying that Ohtani hasn't been or isn't impressive. We're calling out the hyperbole around him.
Again, stats like ERA+ and OPS+ are adjusted for the league.
Greatest single season by one player in baseball's history? Come on. He's not even the best player on his team.
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
I guess it’s somehow Babe Ruth’s fault he was born in the era he was. If it was so easy back then, why was Ruth the only player on that level. It’s a bad take whenever it’s used, guys don’t control the era they play in so to punish them for it is dumb, you compare them to their peers and whoever is statistically the best against their peers is the greatest. Not to mention if Ruth had grown up in the late 20th century with the technology, medicine, science, and training of today you have no way of knowing he wouldn’t be just as dominant.
Devaluing the competition is a bad take only used to try and overvalue newer players in sports. Happens most prevalently in baseball and basketball.
In basketball? Lmao. The general perception is that MJ is and always will be the GOAT and his prime was 25 years ago.
Babe Ruth was good at what he did. But he was also an obese smoking alcoholic, who faced janitors that threw 240 pitches on 1 night rest.
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Babe vs Ohtani
Babe's only two seasons as a true two-way player vs Ohtani's first two seasons as a true two-way player. (Not counting 2019 (0 IP) or 2020 (1.2 IP) for Ohtani because he didn't pitch)
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You know, Ruth was a god amongst men back in the early 1900s, but he played against subpar teams and pitching. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anything about his accomplishments and how he is either the 1st or 2nd best player of all time, but I'm curious how well he would do in this day and age versus the level of competition there is now. Ohtani is likely having one of the best overall seasons in recent memory, not of all time. If Ohtani can start hitting 60 homeruns a year while still pitching at an elite level, then maybe he can start being considered in the same realm as Ruth, but I don't think that will ever happen.
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@schwizzle_nizzle said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
You know, Ruth was a god amongst men back in the early 1900s, but he played against subpar teams and pitching. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anything about his accomplishments and how he is either the 1st or 2nd best player of all time, but I'm curious how well he would do in this day and age versus the level of competition there is now. Ohtani is likely having one of the best overall seasons in recent memory, not of all time. If Ohtani can start hitting 60 homeruns a year while still pitching at an elite level, then maybe he can start being considered in the same realm as Ruth, but I don't think that will ever happen.
But Babe never hit 60 homers while pitching at an elite level or any level for that matter lol
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@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
And yet we have stats that do just that.
Yeah, but where the flaw lies in comparing across eras is that WAR uses stats compiled by an individual player and then weighs them across numerous factors. It cannot take into account the players who are missing. Nobody can argue that the 1920's weren't significantly inferior to the 1940's and 1950's let alone today. WAR actually does a very poor job comparing across eras, that's what things like ERA+ and OPS+ are for...but even those stats cannot take into account the overall quality of a league.
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It's kind of nice for once seeing the Yankee Fans be jealous of a player and feel the need to try to devalue them as a way to convince themselves they don't want them on their team. As a Mets fan I know this tactic well
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This is one of those times where the numbers do not tell the story. If you are trying to use the numbers to determine something here, you are going to miss what Babe was in his era and what Ohtani is today. One of the main things to hold baseball back has been a focus on the past and a desire for records to not be broken or for modern players to not be better. Let's just appreciate great players who do great things in their era. Numbers just are not everything...believe it or not the game does have a heartbeat.
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@chestnuts20_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@schwizzle_nizzle said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
You know, Ruth was a god amongst men back in the early 1900s, but he played against subpar teams and pitching. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anything about his accomplishments and how he is either the 1st or 2nd best player of all time, but I'm curious how well he would do in this day and age versus the level of competition there is now. Ohtani is likely having one of the best overall seasons in recent memory, not of all time. If Ohtani can start hitting 60 homeruns a year while still pitching at an elite level, then maybe he can start being considered in the same realm as Ruth, but I don't think that will ever happen.
But Babe never hit 60 homers while pitching at an elite level or any level for that matter lol
That's what I mean, Ohtani needs to be beyond godly to ever be considered better than Ruth. Sorry, I didn't make that clear in my OP.
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@misfits_138_1_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@ikasnu_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
You can't compare the two. Babe Ruth wasn't playing against the best of the best, whereas Ohtani is facing people who have been playing this game their entire lives and were bred for beisbol. Ohtani is doing what he's doing vs the best players to play the sport.
You said you can't compare the two... Then you did.
I wasn't comparing the two players. I was comparing the two leagues at the time, as they were vastly different.
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@hegone44_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
And yet we have stats that do just that.
Yeah, but where the flaw lies in comparing across eras is that WAR uses stats compiled by an individual player and then weighs them across numerous factors. It cannot take into account the players who are missing. Nobody can argue that the 1920's weren't significantly inferior to the 1940's and 1950's let alone today. WAR actually does a very poor job comparing across eras, that's what things like ERA+ and OPS+ are for...but even those stats cannot take into account the overall quality of a league.
You don't understand WAR... WAR greatly benefits players that played in the past. The fact that Babe was the BEST of his time by far should hint that his WAR would be dramatically increased.
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@schwizzle_nizzle said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@chestnuts20_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@schwizzle_nizzle said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
You know, Ruth was a god amongst men back in the early 1900s, but he played against subpar teams and pitching. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anything about his accomplishments and how he is either the 1st or 2nd best player of all time, but I'm curious how well he would do in this day and age versus the level of competition there is now. Ohtani is likely having one of the best overall seasons in recent memory, not of all time. If Ohtani can start hitting 60 homeruns a year while still pitching at an elite level, then maybe he can start being considered in the same realm as Ruth, but I don't think that will ever happen.
But Babe never hit 60 homers while pitching at an elite level or any level for that matter lol
That's what I mean, Ohtani needs to be beyond godly to ever be considered better than Ruth. Sorry, I didn't make that clear in my OP.
I don't disagree but as a "Two-Way" player, which is what the discussion is, he is on his way to being the greatest of all time.
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@chestnuts20_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@schwizzle_nizzle said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@chestnuts20_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@schwizzle_nizzle said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
You know, Ruth was a god amongst men back in the early 1900s, but he played against subpar teams and pitching. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anything about his accomplishments and how he is either the 1st or 2nd best player of all time, but I'm curious how well he would do in this day and age versus the level of competition there is now. Ohtani is likely having one of the best overall seasons in recent memory, not of all time. If Ohtani can start hitting 60 homeruns a year while still pitching at an elite level, then maybe he can start being considered in the same realm as Ruth, but I don't think that will ever happen.
But Babe never hit 60 homers while pitching at an elite level or any level for that matter lol
That's what I mean, Ohtani needs to be beyond godly to ever be considered better than Ruth. Sorry, I didn't make that clear in my OP.
I don't disagree but as a "Two-Way" player, which is what the discussion is, he is on his way to being the greatest of all time.
There's a small list for two way players, IIRC, so he's probably already at the top of the list based on his playing in Japan and now elevating here in the US.
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@raesone_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
I guess it’s somehow Babe Ruth’s fault he was born in the era he was. If it was so easy back then, why was Ruth the only player on that level. It’s a bad take whenever it’s used, guys don’t control the era they play in so to punish them for it is dumb, you compare them to their peers and whoever is statistically the best against their peers is the greatest. Not to mention if Ruth had grown up in the late 20th century with the technology, medicine, science, and training of today you have no way of knowing he wouldn’t be just as dominant.
Devaluing the competition is a bad take only used to try and overvalue newer players in sports. Happens most prevalently in baseball and basketball.
In basketball? Lmao. The general perception is that MJ is and always will be the GOAT and his prime was 25 years ago.
Babe Ruth was good at what he did. But he was also an obese smoking alcoholic, who faced janitors that threw 240 pitches on 1 night rest.
Lol this made me laugh, but you dam right
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@raesone_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@raesone_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Here's a little context that you always conveniently leave out to color your biased arguments;
1921 was Babe Ruth's 8th season in the Majors.
1923 was Babe Ruth's 10th season in the Majors.
1927 was Babe Ruth's 14th season in the Majors.2021 is Ohtani's 4th season in the Majors while missing significant time in each of his first 3 seasons.
I'm not even gonna go into the obvious arguments of the level of competition both played.
If you think a fat, smoking alcoholic who lit up janitors for a living was actually a better player than super athlete Shohei Ohtani, then your bias is completely laughable and you are blinded by name and legendary status.
If Ohtani has a 14 WAR season in 5-10 years I’ll stand corrected, the point was that this season is nowhere near one of the greatest ever
In that case I'll have to point out the obvious, the fact that the competition back then was not what it is today. I'm a fan of Babe Ruth's legacy and he is an icon to me as well, but I'm not wearing bias blinders like you.
The game is just so different the players are different, The rules, Equipment, Ball Parks. so many other factors. Pitchers are differently not the same, 5 man rotations. Combined SP is so bad now they have to use a bullpen game. Pitchers do not really know how to pitch in todays game. They just throw hard for as long as they can, that why we see pitchers only pitching 5 to 6 innings if that. Even with the No hitters this year pitching is not that great has not been in a long time overall. Look at hitting overall, it sucks, it is all about the long ball. The only reason Teams still use the shift is because players do not learn or do not want to learn how to actually hit the other way. The game has changed. Ruth is one of the greatest players ever. Has Ohtani even played a full season yet. If he continues to pitch and hit will his boday be able to stay healthy. There have been a lot of of players that have had great seasons, I do not see Ohtani season this year as the best ever IMO. He only has 8 wins not impressive, His avg is only .264 not impressive, His ERA is 3.00, He only has 117 hits not impressive. The HR and RBI's ok impressive.He has K 159 times. .IMO not even close the the best ever season. Be able to pitch and hit yeah that is impressive. Ruth he pitched and then became a hitter that is impressive.
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@schwizzle_nizzle said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
You know, Ruth was a god amongst men back in the early 1900s, but he played against subpar teams and pitching. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anything about his accomplishments and how he is either the 1st or 2nd best player of all time, but I'm curious how well he would do in this day and age versus the level of competition there is now. Ohtani is likely having one of the best overall seasons in recent memory, not of all time. If Ohtani can start hitting 60 homeruns a year while still pitching at an elite level, then maybe he can start being considered in the same realm as Ruth, but I don't think that will ever happen.
He would have came up playing the way the players play now. Ohtani is not pitching at elite level.
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@bearsfan217_xbl said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Articles are being posted every day about Ohtani having the "Greatest Season Ever". Ohtani is about to hit the impressive 9 WAR in a season club, this is an elite club that certainly gives credit to this argument, right.
Ohtani's season is on track to be 130th all-time in WAR. For my non-sabermetrics guys, that basically means it isn't the greatest season ever, it isn't even close.
But who has the greatest season ever? Babe Ruth in 1923, the man who Ohtani is often compared to, with a 14.2 WAR season, more WAR than Ohtani has amassed in his MLB career.
How about the 2nd greatest season ever? That goes to a man by the name of Babe Ruth, who in 1921 posted a 12.9 WAR season.
How about the 3rd greatest season ever? That title goes to little-known former superstar by the name of George, George Herman, or as you may know him... Babe Ruth, with 12.6 WAR in 1927.
As a matter of fact, 5 of the 10 greatest seasons ever, and 6 of the top 11, belong to Babe Ruth.
So Shohei Ohtani, "The Next Babe Ruth" is on pace to have the 130th best season ever, whereas Ruth has half of the top 10 best seasons ever, including the top 3.
Ruth had 16 years where he played at least 100 games. This Ohtani season people are calling maybe the best in MLB history, would only be Ruth's 11th best season, and a down year for him.
Let's end with some stats simpler:
Ohtani 2021 OPS: .986
Ruth career OPS: 1.164
Ruth 1919-1924 OPS: 1.262Ohtani 2021 ERA: 3.31
Babe Ruth career ERA: 2.28Let's stop comparing a .260 hitter to a dude who hit over .370 for half a dozen seasons, to a dude who hit more home runs than the entire American League in seasons, and to a dude who beats him in almost any stat. And before the argument that Ruth played in an easier time: (1) Ruth didn't chose his era and if it was so much easier, why was he vastly better than ever other player?
Come on now. You gonna compare eras? Lets be real, the level of competition in 1923 vs todays players is night and day. Hell, baseball wouldnt allow African Americans to even play or anyone that wasn't white for that matter. Ruth in todays game wouldnt be the same player.
Just forget him as a pitcher, he wouldnt make a roster spot based of his pitching so forget that idea.
As a hitter, he would of struggled. Babe was hitting slow pitch softball in 1923 compared to todays game of 100mph fastballs. Also, dont forget him being a fat and slow out of shape.
He would have been brought up on the game the way it is played today, you are comparing him from his time as if he would be that same person or player as if he would know nothing of how it is played today. stop guessing what type of player he would be today.
