No, user input (stick skills) does not reign supreme in Competitive Gameplay Style
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Game isn’t comp. no sport game is IMO
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@red_ted_is_back said in No, user input (stick skills) does not reign supreme in Competitive Gameplay Style:
A rare rant with supporting video evidence. Rare that I would rant and rare that a rant has supporting video evidence.
'Competitive Gameplay Style' where 'user stick skills reign supreme' makes little difference, not even in Franchise mode.
Furthermore, I put forward that in Competitive GamePlay Style the game still creates situations through dodgy manipulation of outcomes rather than pure randomness (leveraging player attributes) of CPU team behaviour like it should.
11 games into my season (Legend pitching, HoF hitting) and I've experienced a lot of suspect gameplay in both wins and losses. It feels like MTO logic has infiltrated Franchise mode further than it had in previous years. I predominantly played RTTS in 19 and 20 so not much Franchise (gave RTTS the flick in 21 for the reasons we are all aware of).
Having suspected pitching input was dodgy throughout the previous 11 games, I had enough and decided to prove myself right.
I layered a semi-transparent image of the pitch feedback on a perfect pitch input over the strike zone of the PAR for that pitch. My suspicions were confirmed. Landing a perfect pitch (using meter at least, the supposed second most accurate input method) makes little difference to the result.
In this case, it also happens to be conveniently after an 85 rated fielder makes an error on a routine ball (which wouldn't ordinarily bother me except it just happens to set up the runs to score two batters later.
Below is a link to the clip I put together. I'd appreciate any feedback on the situation - am I missing something? Are my expectations too high? Am I missing that the z-axis of the plate comes into play? (the feedback is 2D, the plate is 3D).
MLB The Show 21 dodgy Competitive Style gameplay https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIc6B6QnvZE
Buy a bat and a glove and a ball. Get outside and play sports if you want skill to matter. You are using a joystick dude. There is no skill other than eye-hand coordination with a joystick. Maybe you mean to say that you do not like the game play engine of this video game?
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This game has always, and will always, try to simulate baseball. It will never be a free-for-all fighting game where you input is all that matters. There are those kind of games though if you "input is everything" people want to compete with each other. TONS of them in fact. They have bent over backwards to give you as much input as possible and still have the game resemble Major League Baseball.
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If input was all that mattered a 99 diamond would be no better than a common player. Get over it.
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Sports video games, all of them, manipulate outcomes. Nothing is ever "stick skills reign supreme." Some people call it RNG, some people call it dicerolls (Madden devs, e.g.). It's just the programming. Sucks, but coming to terms with this will lower your frustration.
BTW, in Madden does hitting turbo with your RB still prompts all opposing DL to magically disengage and hunt you down like Ring Wraiths? At least MLBtS isn't that bad...
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@red_ted_is_back said in No, user input (stick skills) does not reign supreme in Competitive Gameplay Style:
A rare rant with supporting video evidence. Rare that I would rant and rare that a rant has supporting video evidence.
'Competitive Gameplay Style' where 'user stick skills reign supreme' makes little difference, not even in Franchise mode.
Furthermore, I put forward that in Competitive GamePlay Style the game still creates situations through dodgy manipulation of outcomes rather than pure randomness (leveraging player attributes) of CPU team behaviour like it should.
11 games into my season (Legend pitching, HoF hitting) and I've experienced a lot of suspect gameplay in both wins and losses. It feels like MTO logic has infiltrated Franchise mode further than it had in previous years. I predominantly played RTTS in 19 and 20 so not much Franchise (gave RTTS the flick in 21 for the reasons we are all aware of).
Having suspected pitching input was dodgy throughout the previous 11 games, I had enough and decided to prove myself right.
I layered a semi-transparent image of the pitch feedback on a perfect pitch input over the strike zone of the PAR for that pitch. My suspicions were confirmed. Landing a perfect pitch (using meter at least, the supposed second most accurate input method) makes little difference to the result.
In this case, it also happens to be conveniently after an 85 rated fielder makes an error on a routine ball (which wouldn't ordinarily bother me except it just happens to set up the runs to score two batters later.
Below is a link to the clip I put together. I'd appreciate any feedback on the situation - am I missing something? Are my expectations too high? Am I missing that the z-axis of the plate comes into play? (the feedback is 2D, the plate is 3D).
MLB The Show 21 dodgy Competitive Style gameplay https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIc6B6QnvZE
The question then is: Does this happen in simulation mode? Is it worse in simulation mode?
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@buddyhightower_xbl said in No, user input (stick skills) does not reign supreme in Competitive Gameplay Style:
@red_ted_is_back said in No, user input (stick skills) does not reign supreme in Competitive Gameplay Style:
A rare rant with supporting video evidence. Rare that I would rant and rare that a rant has supporting video evidence.
'Competitive Gameplay Style' where 'user stick skills reign supreme' makes little difference, not even in Franchise mode.
Furthermore, I put forward that in Competitive GamePlay Style the game still creates situations through dodgy manipulation of outcomes rather than pure randomness (leveraging player attributes) of CPU team behaviour like it should.
11 games into my season (Legend pitching, HoF hitting) and I've experienced a lot of suspect gameplay in both wins and losses. It feels like MTO logic has infiltrated Franchise mode further than it had in previous years. I predominantly played RTTS in 19 and 20 so not much Franchise (gave RTTS the flick in 21 for the reasons we are all aware of).
Having suspected pitching input was dodgy throughout the previous 11 games, I had enough and decided to prove myself right.
I layered a semi-transparent image of the pitch feedback on a perfect pitch input over the strike zone of the PAR for that pitch. My suspicions were confirmed. Landing a perfect pitch (using meter at least, the supposed second most accurate input method) makes little difference to the result.
In this case, it also happens to be conveniently after an 85 rated fielder makes an error on a routine ball (which wouldn't ordinarily bother me except it just happens to set up the runs to score two batters later.
Below is a link to the clip I put together. I'd appreciate any feedback on the situation - am I missing something? Are my expectations too high? Am I missing that the z-axis of the plate comes into play? (the feedback is 2D, the plate is 3D).
MLB The Show 21 dodgy Competitive Style gameplay https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIc6B6QnvZE
The question then is: Does this happen in simulation mode? Is it worse in simulation mode?
Not sure, I’ve had it on competitive since the beginning. My guess is there is little to no difference between simulation and competitive.
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@vipersneak_mlbts said in No, user input (stick skills) does not reign supreme in Competitive Gameplay Style:
If input was all that mattered a 99 diamond would be no better than a common player. Get over it.
Thank you, it seems you’ve misinterpreted my point.
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@suntlacrimae50_psn said in No, user input (stick skills) does not reign supreme in Competitive Gameplay Style:
Sports video games, all of them, manipulate outcomes. Nothing is ever "stick skills reign supreme." Some people call it RNG, some people call it dicerolls (Madden devs, e.g.). It's just the programming. Sucks, but coming to terms with this will lower your frustration.
BTW, in Madden does hitting turbo with your RB still prompts all opposing DL to magically disengage and hunt you down like Ring Wraiths? At least MLBtS isn't that bad...
I don’t play Madden anymore so I can’t answer that last one.
I’m good with the dice rolls determining where in the PAR the pitch hits (that’s what it’s for according to the devs). My point was to demonstrate that the PAR and competitive gameplay style has been advertised as apples and delivered as onions (to use a metaphor).
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@red_ted_is_back said in No, user input (stick skills) does not reign supreme in Competitive Gameplay Style:
@vipersneak_mlbts said in No, user input (stick skills) does not reign supreme in Competitive Gameplay Style:
If input was all that mattered a 99 diamond would be no better than a common player. Get over it.
Thank you, it seems you’ve misinterpreted my point.
I partially misinterpreted in only that I thought you were playing online. Here is the thing. You pitcher has attributes, he gets tired, he has a confidence rating for the pitch you selected, he has k/9 rating, he has a clutch rating, the batter has a clutch rating (so tight situations user input will indeed be affected more), and perfect input will never 100% of the time give perfect results. Because as I said, if it did, then it wouldn't matter which pitcher you ever used. Perfect input should give your input more of a say in the outcome, and perhaps it doesn't enough, but it wasn't designed to make input 100% either. Your evidence is pretty weak as well. That is one pitch. Do that experiment 100 times on each playstyle (competitive and simulation) and then determine which values user input more often. You also adding in a conspiracy theory which I do understand, and often frustrates me. I too often think that I was set up by the coding. Then I remember that all players make errors and stuff like this happens in real baseball as well. Sometimes the other team screws up in my favor so I am good with it.
Think about how real baseball plays out. It's pretty messy and odd things are happening all the time that leave you scratching your head as to how your favorite team could play that poorly, or how that player could have decided to do such a dumb thing or make such a stupid error. Do you really want the game sanitized and sterile? So clear cut that you can predict every outcome based on something? I don't. But if you do, then perhaps they do need to make competitive mode even worse than it is now so you are able to calculate the outcomes based on 100% user input. I simply do not see how that could be fun for anyone, and would indeed lead to your players not mattering.
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SDS will also never make the player attributes not matter. They make most of their money selling stubs in DD so that you will want to buy players who perform better than what you already have all year long. If user input was 95% of what matters a person would never have to upgrade their players in DD. Competitive mode was made for DD primarily so even playing franchise the player attributes will matter at least as much as user input.. Good video skills though, and I would also be pissed, but I feel I understand why sometimes these things are going to happen.
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@vipersneak_mlbts said in No, user input (stick skills) does not reign supreme in Competitive Gameplay Style:
and perfect input will never 100% of the time give perfect results.
Perfect input SHOULD keep the ball in the PAR section. In the video it was a perfect pitch and it went outside the PAR.
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@vipersneak_mlbts said in No, user input (stick skills) does not reign supreme in Competitive Gameplay Style:
SDS will also never make the player attributes not matter. They make most of their money selling stubs in DD so that you will want to buy players who perform better than what you already have all year long. If user input was 95% of what matters a person would never have to upgrade their players in DD. Competitive mode was made for DD primarily so even playing franchise the player attributes will matter at least as much as user input.. Good video skills though, and I would also be pissed, but I feel I understand why sometimes these things are going to happen.
Disagree here too.
A 99 rated pitcher can throw a fastball 103 MPH, a 59 rated pitcher can only throw 85MPH - that's the difference. Both should pitch in their own PAR area, the 99 probably has a smaller PAR area. -
@buddyhightower_xbl said in No, user input (stick skills) does not reign supreme in Competitive Gameplay Style:
@vipersneak_mlbts said in No, user input (stick skills) does not reign supreme in Competitive Gameplay Style:
SDS will also never make the player attributes not matter. They make most of their money selling stubs in DD so that you will want to buy players who perform better than what you already have all year long. If user input was 95% of what matters a person would never have to upgrade their players in DD. Competitive mode was made for DD primarily so even playing franchise the player attributes will matter at least as much as user input.. Good video skills though, and I would also be pissed, but I feel I understand why sometimes these things are going to happen.
Disagree here too.
A 99 rated pitcher can throw a fastball 103 MPH, a 59 rated pitcher can only throw 85MPH - that's the difference. Both should pitch in their own PAR area, the 99 probably has a smaller PAR area.You can disagree all you like, but you are the one who will remain disappointed in the game forever. I am going to enjoy it with all its flaws because its baseball, and baseball games are inherently flawed and unpredictable. Watch one some time. It is quite amazing how off their spot RL pitchers truly are almost every pitch. What makes a pitcher good is his "stuff". How his fastball moves or his sinker drops. They are no were near as perfect with location as you can be in this game.
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The best thing about watching baseball in RL is how unpredictable baseball is. How players go on slumps or get hot. How a pitcher will have a good day or a bad day. And every year this forum asks for the game to be more and more predictable. More and more like a sterile math problem where you know the outcome of every input that you make. It is hard to code the human element of a baseball game, but I think SDS has done a pretty good job of that and some people just don't want baseball, they want a sterile video game that is like every other video game ever created. There are tons of games out there that depend only on joystick play only, why bring that to a baseball game that actually does a good job of making baseball come to life in a game? For me, just get rid of the bugs and overall when I sit back and think about it I am happy with how the baseball part of this game works. Not so happy that I have to do Moments.
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@vipersneak_mlbts said in No, user input (stick skills) does not reign supreme in Competitive Gameplay Style:
@buddyhightower_xbl said in No, user input (stick skills) does not reign supreme in Competitive Gameplay Style:
@vipersneak_mlbts said in No, user input (stick skills) does not reign supreme in Competitive Gameplay Style:
SDS will also never make the player attributes not matter. They make most of their money selling stubs in DD so that you will want to buy players who perform better than what you already have all year long. If user input was 95% of what matters a person would never have to upgrade their players in DD. Competitive mode was made for DD primarily so even playing franchise the player attributes will matter at least as much as user input.. Good video skills though, and I would also be pissed, but I feel I understand why sometimes these things are going to happen.
Disagree here too.
A 99 rated pitcher can throw a fastball 103 MPH, a 59 rated pitcher can only throw 85MPH - that's the difference. Both should pitch in their own PAR area, the 99 probably has a smaller PAR area.You can disagree all you like, but you are the one who will remain disappointed in the game forever. I am going to enjoy it with all its flaws because its baseball, and baseball games are inherently flawed and unpredictable. Watch one some time. It is quite amazing how off their spot RL pitchers truly are almost every pitch. What makes a pitcher good is his "stuff". How his fastball moves or his sinker drops. They are no were near as perfect with location as you can be in this game.
That is so weak!! Baseball is an imperfect game, therefor, SDS developers can code a steaming pile of [censored] and that means it’s a good offering because baseball isn’t a perfect game. You have fanbois syndrome really bad…get that [censored] checked.
SDS has done a horrible job this year. Period. -
Logic check. So if SDS coded a game that was based on consistency and quality that would be bad because baseball is an imperfect game. Right!! Get your head out of your [censored]!!
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@vipersneak_mlbts said in No, user input (stick skills) does not reign supreme in Competitive Gameplay Style:
@red_ted_is_back said in No, user input (stick skills) does not reign supreme in Competitive Gameplay Style:
@vipersneak_mlbts said in No, user input (stick skills) does not reign supreme in Competitive Gameplay Style:
If input was all that mattered a 99 diamond would be no better than a common player. Get over it.
Thank you, it seems you’ve misinterpreted my point.
I partially misinterpreted in only that I thought you were playing online. Here is the thing. You pitcher has attributes, he gets tired, he has a confidence rating for the pitch you selected, he has k/9 rating, he has a clutch rating, the batter has a clutch rating (so tight situations user input will indeed be affected more), and perfect input will never 100% of the time give perfect results. Because as I said, if it did, then it wouldn't matter which pitcher you ever used. Perfect input should give your input more of a say in the outcome, and perhaps it doesn't enough, but it wasn't designed to make input 100% either. Your evidence is pretty weak as well. That is one pitch. Do that experiment 100 times on each playstyle (competitive and simulation) and then determine which values user input more often. You also adding in a conspiracy theory which I do understand, and often frustrates me. I too often think that I was set up by the coding. Then I remember that all players make errors and stuff like this happens in real baseball as well. Sometimes the other team screws up in my favor so I am good with it.
Think about how real baseball plays out. It's pretty messy and odd things are happening all the time that leave you scratching your head as to how your favorite team could play that poorly, or how that player could have decided to do such a dumb thing or make such a stupid error. Do you really want the game sanitized and sterile? So clear cut that you can predict every outcome based on something? I don't. But if you do, then perhaps they do need to make competitive mode even worse than it is now so you are able to calculate the outcomes based on 100% user input. I simply do not see how that could be fun for anyone, and would indeed lead to your players not mattering.
Thank you for an insightful and interesting reply.
I thought about doing this experiment (layering the image of the feedback onto the strike zone) back in April when I first noticed the pitches landing outside the PAR but I didn’t know how to do it. I probably saw it happen a few dozen times (played through all spring training games plus the first 11 of the season) before I got annoyed enough and had the time to work out how to reposition, resize and layer the feedback image onto the video (learnt some new stuff in Final Cut Pro in the process). So whilst I’ve only got video evidence of one, I’m not basing this on just one instance.
I agree with a lot of what you’ve said. I’m not a 100% user input supporter myself either for the reasons you’ve given. I’m reasonably satisfied with how the PAR should work to vary where the ball should land based on the pitcher’s control attribute. But as the clip demonstrates, it’s not as advertised. Syndergaard was only on 27 pitches at that point to so energy wasn’t a factor.
I also agree that to compare simulation and competitive, I really should try both over a long period of time and record results. That does take away from the credibility of my questioning.
I’m usually ok with random fielder errors and that Lindor error wouldn’t normally have bothered me too much, except it was so transparent that it was a lead-in to the upcoming play, that was the tipping point for including it in the video and even creating the video in the first place. If I had messed up on a pitch that would be on me and I wouldn’t have decided to pause and create the vid right there and then (several other times I had actually captured clips with that intention but never bothered) but that pitch was perfect and went nowhere near where it was supposed to (ie the PAR circle) so I got a bit triggered
And by triggered I simply mean laughing at how ridiculously frustrating the game’s obvious deliberate ‘dramatic scenario creating’ is.Anyways, I appreciate the discussion and you’ve made some really good points here which I found interesting and helpful.
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@red_ted_is_back said in No, user input (stick skills) does not reign supreme in Competitive Gameplay Style:
@vipersneak_mlbts said in No, user input (stick skills) does not reign supreme in Competitive Gameplay Style:
@red_ted_is_back said in No, user input (stick skills) does not reign supreme in Competitive Gameplay Style:
@vipersneak_mlbts said in No, user input (stick skills) does not reign supreme in Competitive Gameplay Style:
If input was all that mattered a 99 diamond would be no better than a common player. Get over it.
Thank you, it seems you’ve misinterpreted my point.
I partially misinterpreted in only that I thought you were playing online. Here is the thing. You pitcher has attributes, he gets tired, he has a confidence rating for the pitch you selected, he has k/9 rating, he has a clutch rating, the batter has a clutch rating (so tight situations user input will indeed be affected more), and perfect input will never 100% of the time give perfect results. Because as I said, if it did, then it wouldn't matter which pitcher you ever used. Perfect input should give your input more of a say in the outcome, and perhaps it doesn't enough, but it wasn't designed to make input 100% either. Your evidence is pretty weak as well. That is one pitch. Do that experiment 100 times on each playstyle (competitive and simulation) and then determine which values user input more often. You also adding in a conspiracy theory which I do understand, and often frustrates me. I too often think that I was set up by the coding. Then I remember that all players make errors and stuff like this happens in real baseball as well. Sometimes the other team screws up in my favor so I am good with it.
Think about how real baseball plays out. It's pretty messy and odd things are happening all the time that leave you scratching your head as to how your favorite team could play that poorly, or how that player could have decided to do such a dumb thing or make such a stupid error. Do you really want the game sanitized and sterile? So clear cut that you can predict every outcome based on something? I don't. But if you do, then perhaps they do need to make competitive mode even worse than it is now so you are able to calculate the outcomes based on 100% user input. I simply do not see how that could be fun for anyone, and would indeed lead to your players not mattering.
Thank you for an insightful and interesting reply.
I thought about doing this experiment (layering the image of the feedback onto the strike zone) back in April when I first noticed the pitches landing outside the PAR but I didn’t know how to do it. I probably saw it happen a few dozen times (played through all spring training games plus the first 11 of the season) before I got annoyed enough and had the time to work out how to reposition, resize and layer the feedback image onto the video (learnt some new stuff in Final Cut Pro in the process). So whilst I’ve only got video evidence of one, I’m not basing this on just one instance.
I agree with a lot of what you’ve said. I’m not a 100% user input supporter myself either for the reasons you’ve given. I’m reasonably satisfied with how the PAR should work to vary where the ball should land based on the pitcher’s control attribute. But as the clip demonstrates, it’s not as advertised. Syndergaard was only on 27 pitches at that point to so energy wasn’t a factor.
I also agree that to compare simulation and competitive, I really should try both over a long period of time and record results. That does take away from the credibility of my questioning.
I’m usually ok with random fielder errors and that Lindor error wouldn’t normally have bothered me too much, except it was so transparent that it was a lead-in to the upcoming play, that was the tipping point for including it in the video and even creating the video in the first place. If I had messed up on a pitch that would be on me and I wouldn’t have decided to pause and create the vid right there and then (several other times I had actually captured clips with that intention but never bothered) but that pitch was perfect and went nowhere near where it was supposed to (ie the PAR circle) so I got a bit triggered
And by triggered I simply mean laughing at how ridiculously frustrating the game’s obvious deliberate ‘dramatic scenario creating’ is.Anyways, I appreciate the discussion and you’ve made some really good points here which I found interesting and helpful.
You as well buddy. Thank you for reading and understanding my points. Keep those video skills improving and perhaps SDS will see something in them that they can fix for the better of everyone. Your work is appreciated!
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@worterror_psn said in No, user input (stick skills) does not reign supreme in Competitive Gameplay Style:
@vipersneak_mlbts said in No, user input (stick skills) does not reign supreme in Competitive Gameplay Style:
@buddyhightower_xbl said in No, user input (stick skills) does not reign supreme in Competitive Gameplay Style:
@vipersneak_mlbts said in No, user input (stick skills) does not reign supreme in Competitive Gameplay Style:
SDS will also never make the player attributes not matter. They make most of their money selling stubs in DD so that you will want to buy players who perform better than what you already have all year long. If user input was 95% of what matters a person would never have to upgrade their players in DD. Competitive mode was made for DD primarily so even playing franchise the player attributes will matter at least as much as user input.. Good video skills though, and I would also be pissed, but I feel I understand why sometimes these things are going to happen.
Disagree here too.
A 99 rated pitcher can throw a fastball 103 MPH, a 59 rated pitcher can only throw 85MPH - that's the difference. Both should pitch in their own PAR area, the 99 probably has a smaller PAR area.You can disagree all you like, but you are the one who will remain disappointed in the game forever. I am going to enjoy it with all its flaws because its baseball, and baseball games are inherently flawed and unpredictable. Watch one some time. It is quite amazing how off their spot RL pitchers truly are almost every pitch. What makes a pitcher good is his "stuff". How his fastball moves or his sinker drops. They are no were near as perfect with location as you can be in this game.
That is so weak!! Baseball is an imperfect game, therefor, SDS developers can code a steaming pile of [censored] and that means it’s a good offering because baseball isn’t a perfect game. You have fanbois syndrome really bad…get that [censored] checked.
SDS has done a horrible job this year. Period.No, I never said they can create a badly programmed game. What I mean, since it was not clear, is that they need to program a human element into the game, and that is difficult. They do a decent job of it, but it is never going to be perfect and not everyone is going to agree what we even want. I want realism as much as possible while also incorporating user input. That is asking a lot. I demand a lot. But I am not about to bash their efforts like you are because the game is not trash, but simply has its flaws. The times that i do bash SDS is when things like the beginning of this season occur and we couldn't even play. Sometimes I complain about their decisions. But their programming is pretty solid, it just may not do what you want it to do. It does do what they want it to do.
