Derek Jeter Concept Art
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@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
What's honestly sad is you ignored everything I said with actual stats. I said multiple times, Jeter is great. He's a top 10-12 all time SS... He is not Cal Ripken, that's it.. if you want to compare him to the some of the greatest, he will come up short. He's the next tier.
You can bring up WS rings (a team effort), and his better oWAR propped up by being a better basrunner, sure... But if you want to use analytics, you can't cherry pick.. and there, Ripken absolutely embarrasses him defensively. Like, by a laughable about.. and it's shortstop we are talking about here, a very important defensive position.
Jeter is Yount great.. Ripken is all time great. And statistics are physically proof
Eye test?? Ripken didn't pass an eye test? Good lord.. it's crazy bias that some Yankee fans have.. not all.. someHe’s not top 10-12, that’s your issue. Nobody thinks that. You make it sound like Cal Ripken is somehow out of his league when they’re basically the same tier of great. Yount never won a WS, you can argue that a team wins a WS, not a player and you’re absolutely right, but the Yankees don’t win all five of those without Jeter... and all those great championship teams had a captain. You’re also just ignoring postseason stats as a whole. Jeter is a top 4 SS ever, behind Honus and A-Rod, and on the same level as Cal.
I don’t know if you’ll ever get this through your head, but Baseball is played on a field, not a calculator.
Postseason stats are accumulated by getting the opportunity to do so. Where Jeter is extremely lucky to have been a Yankee during that time period.
His .820 OPS isn't exactly over the top either. So settle down.10-12 was pushing it. I'll say 8-10. My bad.. JAWS, Bbref, etc as well in SS leader boards agree..
And Yount won MVPs.. 2 of them... we ignoring those?You are simply not in the same level as someone when you're over 20 WAR behind the guy.
WAR can be subjective, of course... But 20? There is no doubt with that much.. and it's because defense is a thing.. which you clearly ignore. -
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
What's honestly sad is you ignored everything I said with actual stats. I said multiple times, Jeter is great. He's a top 10-12 all time SS... He is not Cal Ripken, that's it.. if you want to compare him to the some of the greatest, he will come up short. He's the next tier.
You can bring up WS rings (a team effort), and his better oWAR propped up by being a better basrunner, sure... But if you want to use analytics, you can't cherry pick.. and there, Ripken absolutely embarrasses him defensively. Like, by a laughable about.. and it's shortstop we are talking about here, a very important defensive position.
Jeter is Yount great.. Ripken is all time great. And statistics are physically proof
Eye test?? Ripken didn't pass an eye test? Good lord.. it's crazy bias that some Yankee fans have.. not all.. someHe’s not top 10-12, that’s your issue. Nobody thinks that. You make it sound like Cal Ripken is somehow out of his league when they’re basically the same tier of great. Yount never won a WS, you can argue that a team wins a WS, not a player and you’re absolutely right, but the Yankees don’t win all five of those without Jeter... and all those great championship teams had a captain. You’re also just ignoring postseason stats as a whole. Jeter is a top 4 SS ever, behind Honus and A-Rod, and on the same level as Cal.
I don’t know if you’ll ever get this through your head, but Baseball is played on a field, not a calculator.
Postseason stats are accumulated by getting the opportunity to do so. Where Jeter is extremely lucky to have been a Yankee during that time period.
His .820 OPS isn't exactly over the top either. So settle down.10-12 was pushing it. I'll say 8-10. My bad.. JAWS, Bbref, etc as well in SS leader boards agree..
And Yount won MVPs.. 2 of them... we ignoring those?You are simply not in the same level as someone when you're over 20 WAR behind the guy.
WAR can be subjective, of course... But 20? There is no doubt with that much.. and it's because defense is a thing.. which you clearly ignore.You’ve already established that you don’t count awards, we ignoring Jeter’s gold gloves, or do you only use awards when they fit your agenda.
Again, baseball is played on a field, not a calculator, you can’t punish Jeter for being great in the postseason just because other guys didn’t get the chance as frequently.
Truly a ridiculous level of mental gymnastics you’re going to here, when everyone who watched baseball the past two decades knows what Jeter was
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@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
What's honestly sad is you ignored everything I said with actual stats. I said multiple times, Jeter is great. He's a top 10-12 all time SS... He is not Cal Ripken, that's it.. if you want to compare him to the some of the greatest, he will come up short. He's the next tier.
You can bring up WS rings (a team effort), and his better oWAR propped up by being a better basrunner, sure... But if you want to use analytics, you can't cherry pick.. and there, Ripken absolutely embarrasses him defensively. Like, by a laughable about.. and it's shortstop we are talking about here, a very important defensive position.
Jeter is Yount great.. Ripken is all time great. And statistics are physically proof
Eye test?? Ripken didn't pass an eye test? Good lord.. it's crazy bias that some Yankee fans have.. not all.. someHe’s not top 10-12, that’s your issue. Nobody thinks that. He’s clearly top 5. You make it sound like Cal Ripken is somehow out of his league when they’re basically the same tier of great. Yount never won a WS, you can argue that a team wins a WS, not a player and you’re absolutely right, but the Yankees don’t win all five of those without Jeter... and all those great championship teams had a captain. You’re also just ignoring postseason stats as a whole. Jeter is a top 4 SS ever, behind Honus and A-Rod, and on the same level as Cal.
I don’t know if you’ll ever get this through your head, but Baseball is played on a field, not a calculator.
Baseball is played on a field?? Wow.. mind blown..
Do they keep score? -
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
What's honestly sad is you ignored everything I said with actual stats. I said multiple times, Jeter is great. He's a top 10-12 all time SS... He is not Cal Ripken, that's it.. if you want to compare him to the some of the greatest, he will come up short. He's the next tier.
You can bring up WS rings (a team effort), and his better oWAR propped up by being a better basrunner, sure... But if you want to use analytics, you can't cherry pick.. and there, Ripken absolutely embarrasses him defensively. Like, by a laughable about.. and it's shortstop we are talking about here, a very important defensive position.
Jeter is Yount great.. Ripken is all time great. And statistics are physically proof
Eye test?? Ripken didn't pass an eye test? Good lord.. it's crazy bias that some Yankee fans have.. not all.. someHe’s not top 10-12, that’s your issue. Nobody thinks that. He’s clearly top 5. You make it sound like Cal Ripken is somehow out of his league when they’re basically the same tier of great. Yount never won a WS, you can argue that a team wins a WS, not a player and you’re absolutely right, but the Yankees don’t win all five of those without Jeter... and all those great championship teams had a captain. You’re also just ignoring postseason stats as a whole. Jeter is a top 4 SS ever, behind Honus and A-Rod, and on the same level as Cal.
I don’t know if you’ll ever get this through your head, but Baseball is played on a field, not a calculator.
Baseball is played on a field?? Wow.. mind blown..
Do they keep score?Advanced Defensive metrics were also considered poor indication stats with less reliability throughout the careers of both Cal and Jeter (and still are to an extent).
And if we remove dWAR Jeter wins... and spoiler alert, it’s not close.
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Imagine disliking a player so much that you have to put loads of effort and mental gymnastics into discrediting an all-time great and the thought of seeing mock card art for them in a video game drives you insane. That’s really sad lol
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@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
What's honestly sad is you ignored everything I said with actual stats. I said multiple times, Jeter is great. He's a top 10-12 all time SS... He is not Cal Ripken, that's it.. if you want to compare him to the some of the greatest, he will come up short. He's the next tier.
You can bring up WS rings (a team effort), and his better oWAR propped up by being a better basrunner, sure... But if you want to use analytics, you can't cherry pick.. and there, Ripken absolutely embarrasses him defensively. Like, by a laughable about.. and it's shortstop we are talking about here, a very important defensive position.
Jeter is Yount great.. Ripken is all time great. And statistics are physically proof
Eye test?? Ripken didn't pass an eye test? Good lord.. it's crazy bias that some Yankee fans have.. not all.. someHe’s not top 10-12, that’s your issue. Nobody thinks that. You make it sound like Cal Ripken is somehow out of his league when they’re basically the same tier of great. Yount never won a WS, you can argue that a team wins a WS, not a player and you’re absolutely right, but the Yankees don’t win all five of those without Jeter... and all those great championship teams had a captain. You’re also just ignoring postseason stats as a whole. Jeter is a top 4 SS ever, behind Honus and A-Rod, and on the same level as Cal.
I don’t know if you’ll ever get this through your head, but Baseball is played on a field, not a calculator.
Postseason stats are accumulated by getting the opportunity to do so. Where Jeter is extremely lucky to have been a Yankee during that time period.
His .820 OPS isn't exactly over the top either. So settle down.10-12 was pushing it. I'll say 8-10. My bad.. JAWS, Bbref, etc as well in SS leader boards agree..
And Yount won MVPs.. 2 of them... we ignoring those?You are simply not in the same level as someone when you're over 20 WAR behind the guy.
WAR can be subjective, of course... But 20? There is no doubt with that much.. and it's because defense is a thing.. which you clearly ignore.You’ve already established that you don’t count awards, we ignoring Jeter’s gold gloves, or do you only use awards when they fit your agenda.
Again, baseball is played on a field, not a calculator, you can’t punish Jeter for being great in the postseason just because other guys didn’t get the chance as frequently.
Truly a ridiculous level of mental gymnastics you’re going to here, when everyone who watched baseball the past two decades knows what Jeter was
I didn't ignore any award.. gold gloves are what started this whole thing but you ignore anything negative about your deity..
I'll say it one more time. Jeter was a great player. I watched his entire career.. He was bad defensively.. And that's why he isn't on Cal's level.
The mental gymnastics is ignoring that part of his game and repeating the good parts which we agree on. -
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
Imagine disliking a player so much that you have to put loads of effort and mental gymnastics into discrediting an all-time great and the thought of seeing mock card art for them in a video game drives you insane. That’s really sad lol
I like Jeter lol.. you're mixing me in with the other poster I think
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@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
What's honestly sad is you ignored everything I said with actual stats. I said multiple times, Jeter is great. He's a top 10-12 all time SS... He is not Cal Ripken, that's it.. if you want to compare him to the some of the greatest, he will come up short. He's the next tier.
You can bring up WS rings (a team effort), and his better oWAR propped up by being a better basrunner, sure... But if you want to use analytics, you can't cherry pick.. and there, Ripken absolutely embarrasses him defensively. Like, by a laughable about.. and it's shortstop we are talking about here, a very important defensive position.
Jeter is Yount great.. Ripken is all time great. And statistics are physically proof
Eye test?? Ripken didn't pass an eye test? Good lord.. it's crazy bias that some Yankee fans have.. not all.. someHe’s not top 10-12, that’s your issue. Nobody thinks that. You make it sound like Cal Ripken is somehow out of his league when they’re basically the same tier of great. Yount never won a WS, you can argue that a team wins a WS, not a player and you’re absolutely right, but the Yankees don’t win all five of those without Jeter... and all those great championship teams had a captain. You’re also just ignoring postseason stats as a whole. Jeter is a top 4 SS ever, behind Honus and A-Rod, and on the same level as Cal.
I don’t know if you’ll ever get this through your head, but Baseball is played on a field, not a calculator.
Postseason stats are accumulated by getting the opportunity to do so. Where Jeter is extremely lucky to have been a Yankee during that time period.
His .820 OPS isn't exactly over the top either. So settle down.10-12 was pushing it. I'll say 8-10. My bad.. JAWS, Bbref, etc as well in SS leader boards agree..
And Yount won MVPs.. 2 of them... we ignoring those?You are simply not in the same level as someone when you're over 20 WAR behind the guy.
WAR can be subjective, of course... But 20? There is no doubt with that much.. and it's because defense is a thing.. which you clearly ignore.You’ve already established that you don’t count awards, we ignoring Jeter’s gold gloves, or do you only use awards when they fit your agenda.
Again, baseball is played on a field, not a calculator, you can’t punish Jeter for being great in the postseason just because other guys didn’t get the chance as frequently.
Truly a ridiculous level of mental gymnastics you’re going to here, when everyone who watched baseball the past two decades knows what Jeter was
I didn't ignore any award.. gold gloves are what started this whole thing but you ignore anything negative about your deity..
I'll say it one more time. Jeter was a great player. I watched his entire career.. He was bad defensively.. And that's why he isn't on Cal's level.
The mental gymnastics is ignoring that part of his game and repeating the good parts which we agree on.And I would counter argue by saying (1) defensive stats are shaky (2) WAR is cumulative and Cal played more games (3) WAR doesn’t take into account postseason success, the whole point of the game (4) you can’t measure the impact of leadership or mentorship that Jeter had to championship teams (5) postseason success shouldn’t be negated just because others didn’t have those opportunities, Jeter always rose to the occasion.
Nobody legitimately believes Jeter was the worst defender ever, it’s a flawed stat showing flaws. Below average? Sure but when you count the points mentioned above, any skill gap between Cal and Jeter is negligible
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@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
What's honestly sad is you ignored everything I said with actual stats. I said multiple times, Jeter is great. He's a top 10-12 all time SS... He is not Cal Ripken, that's it.. if you want to compare him to the some of the greatest, he will come up short. He's the next tier.
You can bring up WS rings (a team effort), and his better oWAR propped up by being a better basrunner, sure... But if you want to use analytics, you can't cherry pick.. and there, Ripken absolutely embarrasses him defensively. Like, by a laughable about.. and it's shortstop we are talking about here, a very important defensive position.
Jeter is Yount great.. Ripken is all time great. And statistics are physically proof
Eye test?? Ripken didn't pass an eye test? Good lord.. it's crazy bias that some Yankee fans have.. not all.. someHe’s not top 10-12, that’s your issue. Nobody thinks that. You make it sound like Cal Ripken is somehow out of his league when they’re basically the same tier of great. Yount never won a WS, you can argue that a team wins a WS, not a player and you’re absolutely right, but the Yankees don’t win all five of those without Jeter... and all those great championship teams had a captain. You’re also just ignoring postseason stats as a whole. Jeter is a top 4 SS ever, behind Honus and A-Rod, and on the same level as Cal.
I don’t know if you’ll ever get this through your head, but Baseball is played on a field, not a calculator.
Postseason stats are accumulated by getting the opportunity to do so. Where Jeter is extremely lucky to have been a Yankee during that time period.
His .820 OPS isn't exactly over the top either. So settle down.10-12 was pushing it. I'll say 8-10. My bad.. JAWS, Bbref, etc as well in SS leader boards agree..
And Yount won MVPs.. 2 of them... we ignoring those?You are simply not in the same level as someone when you're over 20 WAR behind the guy.
WAR can be subjective, of course... But 20? There is no doubt with that much.. and it's because defense is a thing.. which you clearly ignore.You’ve already established that you don’t count awards, we ignoring Jeter’s gold gloves, or do you only use awards when they fit your agenda.
Again, baseball is played on a field, not a calculator, you can’t punish Jeter for being great in the postseason just because other guys didn’t get the chance as frequently.
Truly a ridiculous level of mental gymnastics you’re going to here, when everyone who watched baseball the past two decades knows what Jeter was
I didn't ignore any award.. gold gloves are what started this whole thing but you ignore anything negative about your deity..
I'll say it one more time. Jeter was a great player. I watched his entire career.. He was bad defensively.. And that's why he isn't on Cal's level.
The mental gymnastics is ignoring that part of his game and repeating the good parts which we agree on.And I would counter argue by saying (1) defensive stats are shaky (2) WAR is cumulative and Cal played more games (3) WAR doesn’t take into account postseason success, the whole point of the game (4) you can’t measure the impact of leadership or mentorship that Jeter had to championship teams (5) postseason success shouldn’t be negated just because others didn’t have those opportunities, Jeter always rose to the occasion.
Nobody legitimately believes Jeter was the worst defender ever, it’s a flawed stat showing flaws. Below average? Sure but when you count the points mentioned above, any skill gap between Cal and Jeter is negligible
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If it were close, ya.. negligible.. but it's not even in the same vicinity.. so no. There is no doubt here that Cal was wayy better than Derek defensively. In fact, he was one of the best ever.
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Cal playing that many games is a bad thing? How should that be considered a point against him? He is ironman after all. A feat that we will never see again in baseball history. That should be a huge point for him in any argument. The most reliable player in history. You want to talk about intangibles? Start there
By the way. This is a fun debate. It isn't meant to be taken as an attack on your hero, or to be taken defensively which I obviously struck a nerve. It's a baseball debate. That's it. And once again, I don't hate Jeter at all. I hate the Yankees!! But always respected Jeter
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@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
What's honestly sad is you ignored everything I said with actual stats. I said multiple times, Jeter is great. He's a top 10-12 all time SS... He is not Cal Ripken, that's it.. if you want to compare him to the some of the greatest, he will come up short. He's the next tier.
You can bring up WS rings (a team effort), and his better oWAR propped up by being a better basrunner, sure... But if you want to use analytics, you can't cherry pick.. and there, Ripken absolutely embarrasses him defensively. Like, by a laughable about.. and it's shortstop we are talking about here, a very important defensive position.
Jeter is Yount great.. Ripken is all time great. And statistics are physically proof
Eye test?? Ripken didn't pass an eye test? Good lord.. it's crazy bias that some Yankee fans have.. not all.. someHe’s not top 10-12, that’s your issue. Nobody thinks that. You make it sound like Cal Ripken is somehow out of his league when they’re basically the same tier of great. Yount never won a WS, you can argue that a team wins a WS, not a player and you’re absolutely right, but the Yankees don’t win all five of those without Jeter... and all those great championship teams had a captain. You’re also just ignoring postseason stats as a whole. Jeter is a top 4 SS ever, behind Honus and A-Rod, and on the same level as Cal.
I don’t know if you’ll ever get this through your head, but Baseball is played on a field, not a calculator.
Postseason stats are accumulated by getting the opportunity to do so. Where Jeter is extremely lucky to have been a Yankee during that time period.
His .820 OPS isn't exactly over the top either. So settle down.10-12 was pushing it. I'll say 8-10. My bad.. JAWS, Bbref, etc as well in SS leader boards agree..
And Yount won MVPs.. 2 of them... we ignoring those?You are simply not in the same level as someone when you're over 20 WAR behind the guy.
WAR can be subjective, of course... But 20? There is no doubt with that much.. and it's because defense is a thing.. which you clearly ignore.You’ve already established that you don’t count awards, we ignoring Jeter’s gold gloves, or do you only use awards when they fit your agenda.
Again, baseball is played on a field, not a calculator, you can’t punish Jeter for being great in the postseason just because other guys didn’t get the chance as frequently.
Truly a ridiculous level of mental gymnastics you’re going to here, when everyone who watched baseball the past two decades knows what Jeter was
I didn't ignore any award.. gold gloves are what started this whole thing but you ignore anything negative about your deity..
I'll say it one more time. Jeter was a great player. I watched his entire career.. He was bad defensively.. And that's why he isn't on Cal's level.
The mental gymnastics is ignoring that part of his game and repeating the good parts which we agree on.And I would counter argue by saying (1) defensive stats are shaky (2) WAR is cumulative and Cal played more games (3) WAR doesn’t take into account postseason success, the whole point of the game (4) you can’t measure the impact of leadership or mentorship that Jeter had to championship teams (5) postseason success shouldn’t be negated just because others didn’t have those opportunities, Jeter always rose to the occasion.
Nobody legitimately believes Jeter was the worst defender ever, it’s a flawed stat showing flaws. Below average? Sure but when you count the points mentioned above, any skill gap between Cal and Jeter is negligible
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If it were close, ya.. negligible.. but it's not even in the same vicinity.. so no. There is no doubt here that Cal was wayy better than Derek defensively. In fact, he was one of the best ever.
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Cal playing that many games is a bad thing? How should that be considered a point against him? He is ironman after all. A feat that we will never see again in baseball history. That should be a huge point for him in any argument. The most reliable player in history. You want to talk about intangibles? Start there
By the way. This is a fun debate. It isn't meant to be taken as an attack on your hero, or to be taken defensively which I obviously struck a nerve. It's a baseball debate. That's it. And once again, I don't hate Jeter at all. I hate the Yankees!! But always respected Jeter
I don’t have bb-ref open rn but what’s the difference, 20 WAR? If postseason success is the ultimate goal, I think Jeters impact at that is worth what the difference is.
Not saying postseason success is all due to one player, but Jeter had memorable plays at actively helped win WS titles. He was a few non-great plays away from the Yankees only having 24 or 25 rings rn. Stuff like that is hard to quantify since WAR isn’t tracked in the playoffs and it just can’t quantify some things.
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@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
What's honestly sad is you ignored everything I said with actual stats. I said multiple times, Jeter is great. He's a top 10-12 all time SS... He is not Cal Ripken, that's it.. if you want to compare him to the some of the greatest, he will come up short. He's the next tier.
You can bring up WS rings (a team effort), and his better oWAR propped up by being a better basrunner, sure... But if you want to use analytics, you can't cherry pick.. and there, Ripken absolutely embarrasses him defensively. Like, by a laughable about.. and it's shortstop we are talking about here, a very important defensive position.
Jeter is Yount great.. Ripken is all time great. And statistics are physically proof
Eye test?? Ripken didn't pass an eye test? Good lord.. it's crazy bias that some Yankee fans have.. not all.. someHe’s not top 10-12, that’s your issue. Nobody thinks that. You make it sound like Cal Ripken is somehow out of his league when they’re basically the same tier of great. Yount never won a WS, you can argue that a team wins a WS, not a player and you’re absolutely right, but the Yankees don’t win all five of those without Jeter... and all those great championship teams had a captain. You’re also just ignoring postseason stats as a whole. Jeter is a top 4 SS ever, behind Honus and A-Rod, and on the same level as Cal.
I don’t know if you’ll ever get this through your head, but Baseball is played on a field, not a calculator.
Postseason stats are accumulated by getting the opportunity to do so. Where Jeter is extremely lucky to have been a Yankee during that time period.
His .820 OPS isn't exactly over the top either. So settle down.10-12 was pushing it. I'll say 8-10. My bad.. JAWS, Bbref, etc as well in SS leader boards agree..
And Yount won MVPs.. 2 of them... we ignoring those?You are simply not in the same level as someone when you're over 20 WAR behind the guy.
WAR can be subjective, of course... But 20? There is no doubt with that much.. and it's because defense is a thing.. which you clearly ignore.You’ve already established that you don’t count awards, we ignoring Jeter’s gold gloves, or do you only use awards when they fit your agenda.
Again, baseball is played on a field, not a calculator, you can’t punish Jeter for being great in the postseason just because other guys didn’t get the chance as frequently.
Truly a ridiculous level of mental gymnastics you’re going to here, when everyone who watched baseball the past two decades knows what Jeter was
I didn't ignore any award.. gold gloves are what started this whole thing but you ignore anything negative about your deity..
I'll say it one more time. Jeter was a great player. I watched his entire career.. He was bad defensively.. And that's why he isn't on Cal's level.
The mental gymnastics is ignoring that part of his game and repeating the good parts which we agree on.And I would counter argue by saying (1) defensive stats are shaky (2) WAR is cumulative and Cal played more games (3) WAR doesn’t take into account postseason success, the whole point of the game (4) you can’t measure the impact of leadership or mentorship that Jeter had to championship teams (5) postseason success shouldn’t be negated just because others didn’t have those opportunities, Jeter always rose to the occasion.
Nobody legitimately believes Jeter was the worst defender ever, it’s a flawed stat showing flaws. Below average? Sure but when you count the points mentioned above, any skill gap between Cal and Jeter is negligible
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If it were close, ya.. negligible.. but it's not even in the same vicinity.. so no. There is no doubt here that Cal was wayy better than Derek defensively. In fact, he was one of the best ever.
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Cal playing that many games is a bad thing? How should that be considered a point against him? He is ironman after all. A feat that we will never see again in baseball history. That should be a huge point for him in any argument. The most reliable player in history. You want to talk about intangibles? Start there
By the way. This is a fun debate. It isn't meant to be taken as an attack on your hero, or to be taken defensively which I obviously struck a nerve. It's a baseball debate. That's it. And once again, I don't hate Jeter at all. I hate the Yankees!! But always respected Jeter
I don’t have bb-ref open rn but what’s the difference, 20 WAR? If postseason success is the ultimate goal, I think Jeters impact at that is worth what the difference is.
Not saying postseason success is all due to one player, but Jeter had memorable plays at actively helped win WS titles. He was a few non-great plays away from the Yankees only having 24 or 25 rings rn. Stuff like that is hard to quantify since WAR isn’t tracked in the playoffs and it just can’t quantify some things.
How is that a fair debate when one player got to spend 20 years on a financial juggernaut and the other played on a lousy team? (for most of it)
The debate is who is the better player... And from what we can measure, I just don't see the debate. 20 WAR is 20 WAR. (Joe Carter's career lol)...
And here is where I think seals it.
Jeter never led the league in WAR... Not even close actually. He wasn't that MVP type guy...
Cal won 2, and led the league in WAR 3 times... He was the peak of the sport where Jeter wasn't.
And he played every game.. it probably even affected his numbers playing hurt too.. But there is something to be said for doing so.. imagine he had done that as a Yankee?? He'd be Jeter and Gehrig rolled into one and we wouldn't be having this debate at all -
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@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
What's honestly sad is you ignored everything I said with actual stats. I said multiple times, Jeter is great. He's a top 10-12 all time SS... He is not Cal Ripken, that's it.. if you want to compare him to the some of the greatest, he will come up short. He's the next tier.
You can bring up WS rings (a team effort), and his better oWAR propped up by being a better basrunner, sure... But if you want to use analytics, you can't cherry pick.. and there, Ripken absolutely embarrasses him defensively. Like, by a laughable about.. and it's shortstop we are talking about here, a very important defensive position.
Jeter is Yount great.. Ripken is all time great. And statistics are physically proof
Eye test?? Ripken didn't pass an eye test? Good lord.. it's crazy bias that some Yankee fans have.. not all.. someHe’s not top 10-12, that’s your issue. Nobody thinks that. You make it sound like Cal Ripken is somehow out of his league when they’re basically the same tier of great. Yount never won a WS, you can argue that a team wins a WS, not a player and you’re absolutely right, but the Yankees don’t win all five of those without Jeter... and all those great championship teams had a captain. You’re also just ignoring postseason stats as a whole. Jeter is a top 4 SS ever, behind Honus and A-Rod, and on the same level as Cal.
I don’t know if you’ll ever get this through your head, but Baseball is played on a field, not a calculator.
Postseason stats are accumulated by getting the opportunity to do so. Where Jeter is extremely lucky to have been a Yankee during that time period.
His .820 OPS isn't exactly over the top either. So settle down.10-12 was pushing it. I'll say 8-10. My bad.. JAWS, Bbref, etc as well in SS leader boards agree..
And Yount won MVPs.. 2 of them... we ignoring those?You are simply not in the same level as someone when you're over 20 WAR behind the guy.
WAR can be subjective, of course... But 20? There is no doubt with that much.. and it's because defense is a thing.. which you clearly ignore.You’ve already established that you don’t count awards, we ignoring Jeter’s gold gloves, or do you only use awards when they fit your agenda.
Again, baseball is played on a field, not a calculator, you can’t punish Jeter for being great in the postseason just because other guys didn’t get the chance as frequently.
Truly a ridiculous level of mental gymnastics you’re going to here, when everyone who watched baseball the past two decades knows what Jeter was
I didn't ignore any award.. gold gloves are what started this whole thing but you ignore anything negative about your deity..
I'll say it one more time. Jeter was a great player. I watched his entire career.. He was bad defensively.. And that's why he isn't on Cal's level.
The mental gymnastics is ignoring that part of his game and repeating the good parts which we agree on.And I would counter argue by saying (1) defensive stats are shaky (2) WAR is cumulative and Cal played more games (3) WAR doesn’t take into account postseason success, the whole point of the game (4) you can’t measure the impact of leadership or mentorship that Jeter had to championship teams (5) postseason success shouldn’t be negated just because others didn’t have those opportunities, Jeter always rose to the occasion.
Nobody legitimately believes Jeter was the worst defender ever, it’s a flawed stat showing flaws. Below average? Sure but when you count the points mentioned above, any skill gap between Cal and Jeter is negligible
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If it were close, ya.. negligible.. but it's not even in the same vicinity.. so no. There is no doubt here that Cal was wayy better than Derek defensively. In fact, he was one of the best ever.
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Cal playing that many games is a bad thing? How should that be considered a point against him? He is ironman after all. A feat that we will never see again in baseball history. That should be a huge point for him in any argument. The most reliable player in history. You want to talk about intangibles? Start there
By the way. This is a fun debate. It isn't meant to be taken as an attack on your hero, or to be taken defensively which I obviously struck a nerve. It's a baseball debate. That's it. And once again, I don't hate Jeter at all. I hate the Yankees!! But always respected Jeter
I don’t have bb-ref open rn but what’s the difference, 20 WAR? If postseason success is the ultimate goal, I think Jeters impact at that is worth what the difference is.
Not saying postseason success is all due to one player, but Jeter had memorable plays at actively helped win WS titles. He was a few non-great plays away from the Yankees only having 24 or 25 rings rn. Stuff like that is hard to quantify since WAR isn’t tracked in the playoffs and it just can’t quantify some things.
How is that a fair debate when one player got to spend 20 years on a financial juggernaut and the other played on a lousy team? (for most of it)
The debate is who is the better player... And from what we can measure, I just don't see the debate. 20 WAR is 20 WAR. (Joe Carter's career lol)...
And here is where I think seals it.
Jeter never led the league in WAR... Not even close actually. He wasn't that MVP type guy...
Cal won 2, and led the league in WAR 3 times... He was the peak of the sport where Jeter wasn't.
And he played every game.. it probably even affected his numbers playing hurt too.. But there is something to be said for doing so.. imagine he had done that as a Yankee?? He'd be Jeter and Gehrig rolled into one and we wouldn't be having this debate at allIt’s not Jeter’s fault small market teams are cheap lol, can’t punish him for being great when it mattered. Also leading the league in WAR doesn’t matter if your team doesn’t win titles. In terms of pure value towards winning it all, a single play like “The Flip” or a big WS home run can be worth more than full regular season games of WAR if it all goes into a black hole and doesn’t become any postseason success
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@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
Imagine disliking a player so much that you have to put loads of effort and mental gymnastics into discrediting an all-time great and the thought of seeing mock card art for them in a video game drives you insane. That’s really sad lol
Lol facts. Nobody is saying Ripken sucks. Jeter is just in the conversation with him. That card art hit a soft spot I guess. Still a sick design tho
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@king-cals_xbl said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
Imagine disliking a player so much that you have to put loads of effort and mental gymnastics into discrediting an all-time great and the thought of seeing mock card art for them in a video game drives you insane. That’s really sad lol
Lol facts. Nobody is saying Ripken sucks. Jeter is just in the conversation with him. That card art hit a soft spot I guess. Still a sick design tho
Thanks!
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@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@dewrock_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
Offensively, he was everything you could ask for from a middle infielder, and was an absolute nightmare to cheer for the team against him....
Defensively? He was extremely overrated and justified in that everyone has come around to believe that. His metrics are very bad, and had virtually no range. The fact he won gold gloves at all shows how broken that whole thing is, which is well known mostly because of himThe very fact that he won more gold gloves than Cal Ripken Jr still annoys me. Jeter has no business being in the same room as a gold glove award.
100%!
Ripken is better than Jeter in every way but you wouldn't know it from the hype Jeter created..Jeter is the best pure hitting shortstop we will see in this century. Career .310 BA 3500 hits .820 OPS. He was the pillar of consistency and the most clutch hitter I have seen. The game has changed to power and strikeouts, so people disrespect him for "only hitting 260 bombs." Not to mention he was the best role model a kid could have in the early 2000s.
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@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
What's honestly sad is you ignored everything I said with actual stats. I said multiple times, Jeter is great. He's a top 10-12 all time SS... He is not Cal Ripken, that's it.. if you want to compare him to the some of the greatest, he will come up short. He's the next tier.
You can bring up WS rings (a team effort), and his better oWAR propped up by being a better basrunner, sure... But if you want to use analytics, you can't cherry pick.. and there, Ripken absolutely embarrasses him defensively. Like, by a laughable about.. and it's shortstop we are talking about here, a very important defensive position.
Jeter is Yount great.. Ripken is all time great. And statistics are physically proof
Eye test?? Ripken didn't pass an eye test? Good lord.. it's crazy bias that some Yankee fans have.. not all.. someHe’s not top 10-12, that’s your issue. Nobody thinks that. You make it sound like Cal Ripken is somehow out of his league when they’re basically the same tier of great. Yount never won a WS, you can argue that a team wins a WS, not a player and you’re absolutely right, but the Yankees don’t win all five of those without Jeter... and all those great championship teams had a captain. You’re also just ignoring postseason stats as a whole. Jeter is a top 4 SS ever, behind Honus and A-Rod, and on the same level as Cal.
I don’t know if you’ll ever get this through your head, but Baseball is played on a field, not a calculator.
Postseason stats are accumulated by getting the opportunity to do so. Where Jeter is extremely lucky to have been a Yankee during that time period.
His .820 OPS isn't exactly over the top either. So settle down.10-12 was pushing it. I'll say 8-10. My bad.. JAWS, Bbref, etc as well in SS leader boards agree..
And Yount won MVPs.. 2 of them... we ignoring those?You are simply not in the same level as someone when you're over 20 WAR behind the guy.
WAR can be subjective, of course... But 20? There is no doubt with that much.. and it's because defense is a thing.. which you clearly ignore.You’ve already established that you don’t count awards, we ignoring Jeter’s gold gloves, or do you only use awards when they fit your agenda.
Again, baseball is played on a field, not a calculator, you can’t punish Jeter for being great in the postseason just because other guys didn’t get the chance as frequently.
Truly a ridiculous level of mental gymnastics you’re going to here, when everyone who watched baseball the past two decades knows what Jeter was
I didn't ignore any award.. gold gloves are what started this whole thing but you ignore anything negative about your deity..
I'll say it one more time. Jeter was a great player. I watched his entire career.. He was bad defensively.. And that's why he isn't on Cal's level.
The mental gymnastics is ignoring that part of his game and repeating the good parts which we agree on.And I would counter argue by saying (1) defensive stats are shaky (2) WAR is cumulative and Cal played more games (3) WAR doesn’t take into account postseason success, the whole point of the game (4) you can’t measure the impact of leadership or mentorship that Jeter had to championship teams (5) postseason success shouldn’t be negated just because others didn’t have those opportunities, Jeter always rose to the occasion.
Nobody legitimately believes Jeter was the worst defender ever, it’s a flawed stat showing flaws. Below average? Sure but when you count the points mentioned above, any skill gap between Cal and Jeter is negligible
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If it were close, ya.. negligible.. but it's not even in the same vicinity.. so no. There is no doubt here that Cal was wayy better than Derek defensively. In fact, he was one of the best ever.
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Cal playing that many games is a bad thing? How should that be considered a point against him? He is ironman after all. A feat that we will never see again in baseball history. That should be a huge point for him in any argument. The most reliable player in history. You want to talk about intangibles? Start there
By the way. This is a fun debate. It isn't meant to be taken as an attack on your hero, or to be taken defensively which I obviously struck a nerve. It's a baseball debate. That's it. And once again, I don't hate Jeter at all. I hate the Yankees!! But always respected Jeter
I don’t have bb-ref open rn but what’s the difference, 20 WAR? If postseason success is the ultimate goal, I think Jeters impact at that is worth what the difference is.
Not saying postseason success is all due to one player, but Jeter had memorable plays at actively helped win WS titles. He was a few non-great plays away from the Yankees only having 24 or 25 rings rn. Stuff like that is hard to quantify since WAR isn’t tracked in the playoffs and it just can’t quantify some things.
How is that a fair debate when one player got to spend 20 years on a financial juggernaut and the other played on a lousy team? (for most of it)
The debate is who is the better player... And from what we can measure, I just don't see the debate. 20 WAR is 20 WAR. (Joe Carter's career lol)...
And here is where I think seals it.
Jeter never led the league in WAR... Not even close actually. He wasn't that MVP type guy...
Cal won 2, and led the league in WAR 3 times... He was the peak of the sport where Jeter wasn't.
And he played every game.. it probably even affected his numbers playing hurt too.. But there is something to be said for doing so.. imagine he had done that as a Yankee?? He'd be Jeter and Gehrig rolled into one and we wouldn't be having this debate at allWAR is heavily based on advanced defensive metrics. Jeter's defensive war was negative due to his limited range. Cal had a +35 dWAR. Jeter was 97 oWAR to Cal's 75 and Jeter had 200 less PA.
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@dahbeers_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
What's honestly sad is you ignored everything I said with actual stats. I said multiple times, Jeter is great. He's a top 10-12 all time SS... He is not Cal Ripken, that's it.. if you want to compare him to the some of the greatest, he will come up short. He's the next tier.
You can bring up WS rings (a team effort), and his better oWAR propped up by being a better basrunner, sure... But if you want to use analytics, you can't cherry pick.. and there, Ripken absolutely embarrasses him defensively. Like, by a laughable about.. and it's shortstop we are talking about here, a very important defensive position.
Jeter is Yount great.. Ripken is all time great. And statistics are physically proof
Eye test?? Ripken didn't pass an eye test? Good lord.. it's crazy bias that some Yankee fans have.. not all.. someHe’s not top 10-12, that’s your issue. Nobody thinks that. You make it sound like Cal Ripken is somehow out of his league when they’re basically the same tier of great. Yount never won a WS, you can argue that a team wins a WS, not a player and you’re absolutely right, but the Yankees don’t win all five of those without Jeter... and all those great championship teams had a captain. You’re also just ignoring postseason stats as a whole. Jeter is a top 4 SS ever, behind Honus and A-Rod, and on the same level as Cal.
I don’t know if you’ll ever get this through your head, but Baseball is played on a field, not a calculator.
Postseason stats are accumulated by getting the opportunity to do so. Where Jeter is extremely lucky to have been a Yankee during that time period.
His .820 OPS isn't exactly over the top either. So settle down.10-12 was pushing it. I'll say 8-10. My bad.. JAWS, Bbref, etc as well in SS leader boards agree..
And Yount won MVPs.. 2 of them... we ignoring those?You are simply not in the same level as someone when you're over 20 WAR behind the guy.
WAR can be subjective, of course... But 20? There is no doubt with that much.. and it's because defense is a thing.. which you clearly ignore.You’ve already established that you don’t count awards, we ignoring Jeter’s gold gloves, or do you only use awards when they fit your agenda.
Again, baseball is played on a field, not a calculator, you can’t punish Jeter for being great in the postseason just because other guys didn’t get the chance as frequently.
Truly a ridiculous level of mental gymnastics you’re going to here, when everyone who watched baseball the past two decades knows what Jeter was
I didn't ignore any award.. gold gloves are what started this whole thing but you ignore anything negative about your deity..
I'll say it one more time. Jeter was a great player. I watched his entire career.. He was bad defensively.. And that's why he isn't on Cal's level.
The mental gymnastics is ignoring that part of his game and repeating the good parts which we agree on.And I would counter argue by saying (1) defensive stats are shaky (2) WAR is cumulative and Cal played more games (3) WAR doesn’t take into account postseason success, the whole point of the game (4) you can’t measure the impact of leadership or mentorship that Jeter had to championship teams (5) postseason success shouldn’t be negated just because others didn’t have those opportunities, Jeter always rose to the occasion.
Nobody legitimately believes Jeter was the worst defender ever, it’s a flawed stat showing flaws. Below average? Sure but when you count the points mentioned above, any skill gap between Cal and Jeter is negligible
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If it were close, ya.. negligible.. but it's not even in the same vicinity.. so no. There is no doubt here that Cal was wayy better than Derek defensively. In fact, he was one of the best ever.
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Cal playing that many games is a bad thing? How should that be considered a point against him? He is ironman after all. A feat that we will never see again in baseball history. That should be a huge point for him in any argument. The most reliable player in history. You want to talk about intangibles? Start there
By the way. This is a fun debate. It isn't meant to be taken as an attack on your hero, or to be taken defensively which I obviously struck a nerve. It's a baseball debate. That's it. And once again, I don't hate Jeter at all. I hate the Yankees!! But always respected Jeter
I don’t have bb-ref open rn but what’s the difference, 20 WAR? If postseason success is the ultimate goal, I think Jeters impact at that is worth what the difference is.
Not saying postseason success is all due to one player, but Jeter had memorable plays at actively helped win WS titles. He was a few non-great plays away from the Yankees only having 24 or 25 rings rn. Stuff like that is hard to quantify since WAR isn’t tracked in the playoffs and it just can’t quantify some things.
How is that a fair debate when one player got to spend 20 years on a financial juggernaut and the other played on a lousy team? (for most of it)
The debate is who is the better player... And from what we can measure, I just don't see the debate. 20 WAR is 20 WAR. (Joe Carter's career lol)...
And here is where I think seals it.
Jeter never led the league in WAR... Not even close actually. He wasn't that MVP type guy...
Cal won 2, and led the league in WAR 3 times... He was the peak of the sport where Jeter wasn't.
And he played every game.. it probably even affected his numbers playing hurt too.. But there is something to be said for doing so.. imagine he had done that as a Yankee?? He'd be Jeter and Gehrig rolled into one and we wouldn't be having this debate at allWAR is heavily based on advanced defensive metrics. Jeter's defensive war was negative due to his limited range. Cal had a +35 dWAR. Jeter was 97 oWAR to Cal's 75 and Jeter had 200 less PA.
bWAR is heavily based on defensive metrics.
fWAR is not. Which is what most experts use to compare position players.. bWAR for pitchers...
Cal is 92.5 fWAR to Jeter 73 fWARAlso, you're repeating what's been said.
Jeter the better hitter, more athletic but much less power.
Cal light years better defender, which puts him way over the top, especially since we are talking about one of the most important defensive positions.We can talk about postseason (team oriented), peak performance (MVP, etc) which go in each other's favor.. but metrics paint a picture. Cal is the better player because of the huge chasm on defense. Jeter is great though. Still top 10 despite the lacking defense. The end.
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@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@dahbeers_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
What's honestly sad is you ignored everything I said with actual stats. I said multiple times, Jeter is great. He's a top 10-12 all time SS... He is not Cal Ripken, that's it.. if you want to compare him to the some of the greatest, he will come up short. He's the next tier.
You can bring up WS rings (a team effort), and his better oWAR propped up by being a better basrunner, sure... But if you want to use analytics, you can't cherry pick.. and there, Ripken absolutely embarrasses him defensively. Like, by a laughable about.. and it's shortstop we are talking about here, a very important defensive position.
Jeter is Yount great.. Ripken is all time great. And statistics are physically proof
Eye test?? Ripken didn't pass an eye test? Good lord.. it's crazy bias that some Yankee fans have.. not all.. someHe’s not top 10-12, that’s your issue. Nobody thinks that. You make it sound like Cal Ripken is somehow out of his league when they’re basically the same tier of great. Yount never won a WS, you can argue that a team wins a WS, not a player and you’re absolutely right, but the Yankees don’t win all five of those without Jeter... and all those great championship teams had a captain. You’re also just ignoring postseason stats as a whole. Jeter is a top 4 SS ever, behind Honus and A-Rod, and on the same level as Cal.
I don’t know if you’ll ever get this through your head, but Baseball is played on a field, not a calculator.
Postseason stats are accumulated by getting the opportunity to do so. Where Jeter is extremely lucky to have been a Yankee during that time period.
His .820 OPS isn't exactly over the top either. So settle down.10-12 was pushing it. I'll say 8-10. My bad.. JAWS, Bbref, etc as well in SS leader boards agree..
And Yount won MVPs.. 2 of them... we ignoring those?You are simply not in the same level as someone when you're over 20 WAR behind the guy.
WAR can be subjective, of course... But 20? There is no doubt with that much.. and it's because defense is a thing.. which you clearly ignore.You’ve already established that you don’t count awards, we ignoring Jeter’s gold gloves, or do you only use awards when they fit your agenda.
Again, baseball is played on a field, not a calculator, you can’t punish Jeter for being great in the postseason just because other guys didn’t get the chance as frequently.
Truly a ridiculous level of mental gymnastics you’re going to here, when everyone who watched baseball the past two decades knows what Jeter was
I didn't ignore any award.. gold gloves are what started this whole thing but you ignore anything negative about your deity..
I'll say it one more time. Jeter was a great player. I watched his entire career.. He was bad defensively.. And that's why he isn't on Cal's level.
The mental gymnastics is ignoring that part of his game and repeating the good parts which we agree on.And I would counter argue by saying (1) defensive stats are shaky (2) WAR is cumulative and Cal played more games (3) WAR doesn’t take into account postseason success, the whole point of the game (4) you can’t measure the impact of leadership or mentorship that Jeter had to championship teams (5) postseason success shouldn’t be negated just because others didn’t have those opportunities, Jeter always rose to the occasion.
Nobody legitimately believes Jeter was the worst defender ever, it’s a flawed stat showing flaws. Below average? Sure but when you count the points mentioned above, any skill gap between Cal and Jeter is negligible
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If it were close, ya.. negligible.. but it's not even in the same vicinity.. so no. There is no doubt here that Cal was wayy better than Derek defensively. In fact, he was one of the best ever.
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Cal playing that many games is a bad thing? How should that be considered a point against him? He is ironman after all. A feat that we will never see again in baseball history. That should be a huge point for him in any argument. The most reliable player in history. You want to talk about intangibles? Start there
By the way. This is a fun debate. It isn't meant to be taken as an attack on your hero, or to be taken defensively which I obviously struck a nerve. It's a baseball debate. That's it. And once again, I don't hate Jeter at all. I hate the Yankees!! But always respected Jeter
I don’t have bb-ref open rn but what’s the difference, 20 WAR? If postseason success is the ultimate goal, I think Jeters impact at that is worth what the difference is.
Not saying postseason success is all due to one player, but Jeter had memorable plays at actively helped win WS titles. He was a few non-great plays away from the Yankees only having 24 or 25 rings rn. Stuff like that is hard to quantify since WAR isn’t tracked in the playoffs and it just can’t quantify some things.
How is that a fair debate when one player got to spend 20 years on a financial juggernaut and the other played on a lousy team? (for most of it)
The debate is who is the better player... And from what we can measure, I just don't see the debate. 20 WAR is 20 WAR. (Joe Carter's career lol)...
And here is where I think seals it.
Jeter never led the league in WAR... Not even close actually. He wasn't that MVP type guy...
Cal won 2, and led the league in WAR 3 times... He was the peak of the sport where Jeter wasn't.
And he played every game.. it probably even affected his numbers playing hurt too.. But there is something to be said for doing so.. imagine he had done that as a Yankee?? He'd be Jeter and Gehrig rolled into one and we wouldn't be having this debate at allWAR is heavily based on advanced defensive metrics. Jeter's defensive war was negative due to his limited range. Cal had a +35 dWAR. Jeter was 97 oWAR to Cal's 75 and Jeter had 200 less PA.
bWAR is heavily based on defensive metrics.
fWAR is not. Which is what most experts use to compare position players.. bWAR for pitchers...
Cal is 92.5 fWAR to Jeter 73 fWARAlso, you're repeating what's been said.
Jeter the better hitter, more athletic but much less power.
Cal light years better defender, which puts him way over the top, especially since we are talking about one of the most important defensive positions.We can talk about postseason (team oriented), peak performance (MVP, etc) which go in each other's favor.. but metrics paint a picture. Cal is the better player because of the huge chasm on defense. Jeter is great though. Still top 10 despite the lacking defense. The end.
Nah they both top 5, but if I’m building a team rn and can only have one... respect to Cal but I’m easily taking Jeter
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@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@dahbeers_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
What's honestly sad is you ignored everything I said with actual stats. I said multiple times, Jeter is great. He's a top 10-12 all time SS... He is not Cal Ripken, that's it.. if you want to compare him to the some of the greatest, he will come up short. He's the next tier.
You can bring up WS rings (a team effort), and his better oWAR propped up by being a better basrunner, sure... But if you want to use analytics, you can't cherry pick.. and there, Ripken absolutely embarrasses him defensively. Like, by a laughable about.. and it's shortstop we are talking about here, a very important defensive position.
Jeter is Yount great.. Ripken is all time great. And statistics are physically proof
Eye test?? Ripken didn't pass an eye test? Good lord.. it's crazy bias that some Yankee fans have.. not all.. someHe’s not top 10-12, that’s your issue. Nobody thinks that. You make it sound like Cal Ripken is somehow out of his league when they’re basically the same tier of great. Yount never won a WS, you can argue that a team wins a WS, not a player and you’re absolutely right, but the Yankees don’t win all five of those without Jeter... and all those great championship teams had a captain. You’re also just ignoring postseason stats as a whole. Jeter is a top 4 SS ever, behind Honus and A-Rod, and on the same level as Cal.
I don’t know if you’ll ever get this through your head, but Baseball is played on a field, not a calculator.
Postseason stats are accumulated by getting the opportunity to do so. Where Jeter is extremely lucky to have been a Yankee during that time period.
His .820 OPS isn't exactly over the top either. So settle down.10-12 was pushing it. I'll say 8-10. My bad.. JAWS, Bbref, etc as well in SS leader boards agree..
And Yount won MVPs.. 2 of them... we ignoring those?You are simply not in the same level as someone when you're over 20 WAR behind the guy.
WAR can be subjective, of course... But 20? There is no doubt with that much.. and it's because defense is a thing.. which you clearly ignore.You’ve already established that you don’t count awards, we ignoring Jeter’s gold gloves, or do you only use awards when they fit your agenda.
Again, baseball is played on a field, not a calculator, you can’t punish Jeter for being great in the postseason just because other guys didn’t get the chance as frequently.
Truly a ridiculous level of mental gymnastics you’re going to here, when everyone who watched baseball the past two decades knows what Jeter was
I didn't ignore any award.. gold gloves are what started this whole thing but you ignore anything negative about your deity..
I'll say it one more time. Jeter was a great player. I watched his entire career.. He was bad defensively.. And that's why he isn't on Cal's level.
The mental gymnastics is ignoring that part of his game and repeating the good parts which we agree on.And I would counter argue by saying (1) defensive stats are shaky (2) WAR is cumulative and Cal played more games (3) WAR doesn’t take into account postseason success, the whole point of the game (4) you can’t measure the impact of leadership or mentorship that Jeter had to championship teams (5) postseason success shouldn’t be negated just because others didn’t have those opportunities, Jeter always rose to the occasion.
Nobody legitimately believes Jeter was the worst defender ever, it’s a flawed stat showing flaws. Below average? Sure but when you count the points mentioned above, any skill gap between Cal and Jeter is negligible
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If it were close, ya.. negligible.. but it's not even in the same vicinity.. so no. There is no doubt here that Cal was wayy better than Derek defensively. In fact, he was one of the best ever.
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Cal playing that many games is a bad thing? How should that be considered a point against him? He is ironman after all. A feat that we will never see again in baseball history. That should be a huge point for him in any argument. The most reliable player in history. You want to talk about intangibles? Start there
By the way. This is a fun debate. It isn't meant to be taken as an attack on your hero, or to be taken defensively which I obviously struck a nerve. It's a baseball debate. That's it. And once again, I don't hate Jeter at all. I hate the Yankees!! But always respected Jeter
I don’t have bb-ref open rn but what’s the difference, 20 WAR? If postseason success is the ultimate goal, I think Jeters impact at that is worth what the difference is.
Not saying postseason success is all due to one player, but Jeter had memorable plays at actively helped win WS titles. He was a few non-great plays away from the Yankees only having 24 or 25 rings rn. Stuff like that is hard to quantify since WAR isn’t tracked in the playoffs and it just can’t quantify some things.
How is that a fair debate when one player got to spend 20 years on a financial juggernaut and the other played on a lousy team? (for most of it)
The debate is who is the better player... And from what we can measure, I just don't see the debate. 20 WAR is 20 WAR. (Joe Carter's career lol)...
And here is where I think seals it.
Jeter never led the league in WAR... Not even close actually. He wasn't that MVP type guy...
Cal won 2, and led the league in WAR 3 times... He was the peak of the sport where Jeter wasn't.
And he played every game.. it probably even affected his numbers playing hurt too.. But there is something to be said for doing so.. imagine he had done that as a Yankee?? He'd be Jeter and Gehrig rolled into one and we wouldn't be having this debate at allWAR is heavily based on advanced defensive metrics. Jeter's defensive war was negative due to his limited range. Cal had a +35 dWAR. Jeter was 97 oWAR to Cal's 75 and Jeter had 200 less PA.
bWAR is heavily based on defensive metrics.
fWAR is not. Which is what most experts use to compare position players.. bWAR for pitchers...
Cal is 92.5 fWAR to Jeter 73 fWARAlso, you're repeating what's been said.
Jeter the better hitter, more athletic but much less power.
Cal light years better defender, which puts him way over the top, especially since we are talking about one of the most important defensive positions.We can talk about postseason (team oriented), peak performance (MVP, etc) which go in each other's favor.. but metrics paint a picture. Cal is the better player because of the huge chasm on defense. Jeter is great though. Still top 10 despite the lacking defense. The end.
I am not discrediting Cal, but Advanced metrics can kick rocks. The eyes don't lie. Baseball today is a joke with Ivy League guys using algorithms to make decisions for teams. Everybody lives and dies with sabermetric stats. Yeah how bout we get a few more guys that you can't shift against and they'll hit .320 for 10 years.
Both guys were great, but Jeter inspired a generation. -
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@dahbeers_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@dahbeers_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@kdclemson_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
@nanthrax_1_psn said in Derek Jeter Concept Art:
What's honestly sad is you ignored everything I said with actual stats. I said multiple times, Jeter is great. He's a top 10-12 all time SS... He is not Cal Ripken, that's it.. if you want to compare him to the some of the greatest, he will come up short. He's the next tier.
You can bring up WS rings (a team effort), and his better oWAR propped up by being a better basrunner, sure... But if you want to use analytics, you can't cherry pick.. and there, Ripken absolutely embarrasses him defensively. Like, by a laughable about.. and it's shortstop we are talking about here, a very important defensive position.
Jeter is Yount great.. Ripken is all time great. And statistics are physically proof
Eye test?? Ripken didn't pass an eye test? Good lord.. it's crazy bias that some Yankee fans have.. not all.. someHe’s not top 10-12, that’s your issue. Nobody thinks that. You make it sound like Cal Ripken is somehow out of his league when they’re basically the same tier of great. Yount never won a WS, you can argue that a team wins a WS, not a player and you’re absolutely right, but the Yankees don’t win all five of those without Jeter... and all those great championship teams had a captain. You’re also just ignoring postseason stats as a whole. Jeter is a top 4 SS ever, behind Honus and A-Rod, and on the same level as Cal.
I don’t know if you’ll ever get this through your head, but Baseball is played on a field, not a calculator.
Postseason stats are accumulated by getting the opportunity to do so. Where Jeter is extremely lucky to have been a Yankee during that time period.
His .820 OPS isn't exactly over the top either. So settle down.10-12 was pushing it. I'll say 8-10. My bad.. JAWS, Bbref, etc as well in SS leader boards agree..
And Yount won MVPs.. 2 of them... we ignoring those?You are simply not in the same level as someone when you're over 20 WAR behind the guy.
WAR can be subjective, of course... But 20? There is no doubt with that much.. and it's because defense is a thing.. which you clearly ignore.You’ve already established that you don’t count awards, we ignoring Jeter’s gold gloves, or do you only use awards when they fit your agenda.
Again, baseball is played on a field, not a calculator, you can’t punish Jeter for being great in the postseason just because other guys didn’t get the chance as frequently.
Truly a ridiculous level of mental gymnastics you’re going to here, when everyone who watched baseball the past two decades knows what Jeter was
I didn't ignore any award.. gold gloves are what started this whole thing but you ignore anything negative about your deity..
I'll say it one more time. Jeter was a great player. I watched his entire career.. He was bad defensively.. And that's why he isn't on Cal's level.
The mental gymnastics is ignoring that part of his game and repeating the good parts which we agree on.And I would counter argue by saying (1) defensive stats are shaky (2) WAR is cumulative and Cal played more games (3) WAR doesn’t take into account postseason success, the whole point of the game (4) you can’t measure the impact of leadership or mentorship that Jeter had to championship teams (5) postseason success shouldn’t be negated just because others didn’t have those opportunities, Jeter always rose to the occasion.
Nobody legitimately believes Jeter was the worst defender ever, it’s a flawed stat showing flaws. Below average? Sure but when you count the points mentioned above, any skill gap between Cal and Jeter is negligible
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If it were close, ya.. negligible.. but it's not even in the same vicinity.. so no. There is no doubt here that Cal was wayy better than Derek defensively. In fact, he was one of the best ever.
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Cal playing that many games is a bad thing? How should that be considered a point against him? He is ironman after all. A feat that we will never see again in baseball history. That should be a huge point for him in any argument. The most reliable player in history. You want to talk about intangibles? Start there
By the way. This is a fun debate. It isn't meant to be taken as an attack on your hero, or to be taken defensively which I obviously struck a nerve. It's a baseball debate. That's it. And once again, I don't hate Jeter at all. I hate the Yankees!! But always respected Jeter
I don’t have bb-ref open rn but what’s the difference, 20 WAR? If postseason success is the ultimate goal, I think Jeters impact at that is worth what the difference is.
Not saying postseason success is all due to one player, but Jeter had memorable plays at actively helped win WS titles. He was a few non-great plays away from the Yankees only having 24 or 25 rings rn. Stuff like that is hard to quantify since WAR isn’t tracked in the playoffs and it just can’t quantify some things.
How is that a fair debate when one player got to spend 20 years on a financial juggernaut and the other played on a lousy team? (for most of it)
The debate is who is the better player... And from what we can measure, I just don't see the debate. 20 WAR is 20 WAR. (Joe Carter's career lol)...
And here is where I think seals it.
Jeter never led the league in WAR... Not even close actually. He wasn't that MVP type guy...
Cal won 2, and led the league in WAR 3 times... He was the peak of the sport where Jeter wasn't.
And he played every game.. it probably even affected his numbers playing hurt too.. But there is something to be said for doing so.. imagine he had done that as a Yankee?? He'd be Jeter and Gehrig rolled into one and we wouldn't be having this debate at allWAR is heavily based on advanced defensive metrics. Jeter's defensive war was negative due to his limited range. Cal had a +35 dWAR. Jeter was 97 oWAR to Cal's 75 and Jeter had 200 less PA.
bWAR is heavily based on defensive metrics.
fWAR is not. Which is what most experts use to compare position players.. bWAR for pitchers...
Cal is 92.5 fWAR to Jeter 73 fWARAlso, you're repeating what's been said.
Jeter the better hitter, more athletic but much less power.
Cal light years better defender, which puts him way over the top, especially since we are talking about one of the most important defensive positions.We can talk about postseason (team oriented), peak performance (MVP, etc) which go in each other's favor.. but metrics paint a picture. Cal is the better player because of the huge chasm on defense. Jeter is great though. Still top 10 despite the lacking defense. The end.
I am not discrediting Cal, but Advanced metrics can kick rocks. The eyes don't lie. Baseball today is a joke with Ivy League guys using algorithms to make decisions for teams. Everybody lives and dies with sabermetric stats. Yeah how bout we get a few more guys that you can't shift against and they'll hit .320 for 10 years.
Both guys were great, but Jeter inspired a generation.So did Cal... Recency bias.. also, once again, the fact Jeter got to play in NY.. if Cal played in NY, imagine...
Also, Jeter inspired mostly Yankee fans.. I wasn't inspired by him. He was never the peak of the sport.. bonds was.. rightly or wrongly.. or Griffey... -
