Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever"
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I don’t want to trash Ruth. He is a legend and deserves prays and all the accolades of his time. Remind me though who played baseball in Ruth’s day. The answer is... poor white people. Even if someone had great talent if they could make more money doing something else, they did. Baseball back then wasn’t incentivized like it is today. Now of days you have several thousands of pro players. In Ruth’s day a few hundred. So before we even get to color barriers we have to account for even the whites that were excluded due to monetary reasons.
The gap between elite talent and average talent in today’s game is slimmer. Back in Ruth’s day he was a man among boys. We can talk about depth of player pool, color and inclusion. I’ll skip that and just generalize that the gap is slimmer between your best players and your everyday average Joe, in todays game.
What Otani is doing is spectacular. He is having one of the greatest seasons in modern baseball. His value is one in its own. He’s is one player doing the job of two. That right there is the true value of his season. He’s playing above average at two disciplines of the game.
You can’t diminish what Otani is doing. Also if you’re a fan this, it is phenomenal for baseball in general. Much like Babe, Otani is elevating the game and doing it as almost a mythical character.
I’m not saying Otani is the best, but I can’t deny what he is doing isn’t great.
Karen your arguments flaw is simple, you’re comparing the best to the greatest. These are two different things and if I go into great detail on this even I’d stop reading my post.
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@bozzman0109_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Articles are being posted every day about Ohtani having the "Greatest Season Ever". Ohtani is about to hit the impressive 9 WAR in a season club, this is an elite club that certainly gives credit to this argument, right.
Ohtani's season is on track to be 130th all-time in WAR. For my non-sabermetrics guys, that basically means it isn't the greatest season ever, it isn't even close.
But who has the greatest season ever? Babe Ruth in 1923, the man who Ohtani is often compared to, with a 14.2 WAR season, more WAR than Ohtani has amassed in his MLB career.
How about the 2nd greatest season ever? That goes to a man by the name of Babe Ruth, who in 1921 posted a 12.9 WAR season.
How about the 3rd greatest season ever? That title goes to little-known former superstar by the name of George, George Herman, or as you may know him... Babe Ruth, with 12.6 WAR in 1927.
As a matter of fact, 5 of the 10 greatest seasons ever, and 6 of the top 11, belong to Babe Ruth.
So Shohei Ohtani, "The Next Babe Ruth" is on pace to have the 130th best season ever, whereas Ruth has half of the top 10 best seasons ever, including the top 3.
Ruth had 16 years where he played at least 100 games. This Ohtani season people are calling maybe the best in MLB history, would only be Ruth's 11th best season, and a down year for him.
Let's end with some stats simpler:
Ohtani 2021 OPS: .986
Ruth career OPS: 1.164
Ruth 1919-1924 OPS: 1.262Ohtani 2021 ERA: 3.31
Babe Ruth career ERA: 2.28Let's stop comparing a .260 hitter to a dude who hit over .370 for half a dozen seasons, to a dude who hit more home runs than the entire American League in seasons, and to a dude who beats him in almost any stat. And before the argument that Ruth played in an easier time: (1) Ruth didn't chose his era and if it was so much easier, why was he vastly better than ever other player?
Do you think Ruth could hit off Ohtani and would Ohtani hit Ruth?
If they grew up in the same time, Ruth would be better
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@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
The gap between elite talent and average talent in today’s game is slimmer. Back in Ruth’s day he was a man among boys. We can talk about depth of player pool, color and inclusion. I’ll skip that and just generalize that the gap is slimmer between your best players and your everyday average Joe, in todays game.
What Otani is doing is spectacular. He is having one of the greatest seasons in modern baseball. His value is one in its own. He’s is one player doing the job of two. That right there is the true value of his season. He’s playing above average at two disciplines of the game.
You can’t diminish what Otani is doing. Also if you’re a fan this, it is phenomenal for baseball in general. Much like Babe, Otani is elevating the game and doing it as almost a mythical character.
I’m not saying Otani is the best, but I can’t deny what he is doing isn’t great.
Karen your arguments flaw is simple, you’re comparing the best to the greatest. These are two different things and if I go into great detail on this even I’d stop reading my post.
I would argue that Ohtani’s season is neither the best nor greatest. If the best is statistically based, we use WAR the stat that compares eras and we use it with the assumption that obviously Ruth didn’t have the training and technology today so it’s only fair to compare them to their peers. With that in mind, Ruth has the three best seasons ever by indications from most stats.
In terms of “greatest” I fail to see how someone hitting above average on both sides is greater than someone hitting .370 with 1.300 OPS in a season or 72 home runs in a season. It’s a cool thing because it rarely happens, but like I said it’s not a top 100 season ever even
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do yourself a favor watch the games. No one is doing what Otani is doing. And if Otani can do this for a few years he’ll surpass Babe as the best two way player ever.
I’m not saying Otani is having a better season than Ruth ever had. I’m just saying Otani is having one of the greatest seasons of all time. And even if it’s 130th in WAR that’s pretty darn good. I’d argue that there’s a precedence here set by Otani being a great if not the greatest two way player the game has ever seen. That has implications far greater than stats.
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@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
do yourself a favor watch the games. No one is doing what Otani is doing. And if Otani can do this for a few years he’ll surpass Babe as the best two way player ever.
I’m not saying Otani is having a better season than Ruth ever had. I’m just saying Otani is having one of the greatest seasons of all time. And even if it’s 130th in WAR that’s pretty darn good. I’d argue that there’s a precedence here set by Otani being a great if not the greatest two way player the game has ever seen. That has implications far greater than stats.
That’s where your bias comes from, if you would’ve had the chance to watch Babe, this wouldn’t even be an argument. You just want the guy you got to see to be the greatest.
“Nobody has done what Ohtani has done”. Ohtani plays baseball, 130 guys have had better seasons.
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
do yourself a favor watch the games. No one is doing what Otani is doing. And if Otani can do this for a few years he’ll surpass Babe as the best two way player ever.
I’m not saying Otani is having a better season than Ruth ever had. I’m just saying Otani is having one of the greatest seasons of all time. And even if it’s 130th in WAR that’s pretty darn good. I’d argue that there’s a precedence here set by Otani being a great if not the greatest two way player the game has ever seen. That has implications far greater than stats.
That’s where your bias comes from, if you would’ve had the chance to watch Babe, this wouldn’t even be an argument. You just want the guy you got to see to be the greatest.
“Nobody has done what Ohtani has done”. Ohtani plays baseball, 130 guys have had better seasons.
No one has done what Otani has done. And in sports that’s what makes you great. Hence one of the greatest seasons ever. Which brings me to my initial call out of you comparing the best to the greatest. See how that works?
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@raesone_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@raesone_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
I guess it’s somehow Babe Ruth’s fault he was born in the era he was. If it was so easy back then, why was Ruth the only player on that level. It’s a bad take whenever it’s used, guys don’t control the era they play in so to punish them for it is dumb, you compare them to their peers and whoever is statistically the best against their peers is the greatest. Not to mention if Ruth had grown up in the late 20th century with the technology, medicine, science, and training of today you have no way of knowing he wouldn’t be just as dominant.
Devaluing the competition is a bad take only used to try and overvalue newer players in sports. Happens most prevalently in baseball and basketball.
In basketball? Lmao. The general perception is that MJ is and always will be the GOAT and his prime was 25 years ago.
Babe Ruth was good at what he did. But he was also an obese smoking alcoholic, who faced janitors that threw 240 pitches on 1 night rest.
The fact that LeBron even has a debate proves that point, the fact that guys like Wilt who was getting almost 30 RPG in seasons doesn’t get mention in the convo, or Bird.
LeBron doesn't have a debate. And I'm a big time LeBron fan, not joking or lying. It's a created narrative to influence younger generations with the intention of them being more favorable towards LeBron's brand. If you'd ask any, and I say ANY, current or former NBA player straight up with no cameras around and a non-disclosure about the conversation, who the better player is between the two, 99 out 100 would say MJ and the single guy who'd say LeBron, would be LeBron.
Not even gonna go in detail about Wilt and Larry because literally no one mentions them in the GOAT debate, despite them being great in their own way.
Bird owns LeBron, and everyone knows it.
You see kids, back in the 80's, ballers used a technique to prevent the other team fom scoring.
It was known as "Defense".
Today's NBA is a glorified shoot around.
Bird, Magic and MJ... That's all I need.
Take the 5 best today, tell them to leave their purses in the car.
Bird and MJ would have LeBron in tears before tipoff.
MJ: "Who's this little sissy, Larry?"
Bird: "LeBron somebody. Whoever he is, he's in serious trouble."
LeBron: "HELP ! The mean men are being mean!"LeBron is a big girl (sorry for the insult, ladies)
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@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
do yourself a favor watch the games. No one is doing what Otani is doing. And if Otani can do this for a few years he’ll surpass Babe as the best two way player ever.
I’m not saying Otani is having a better season than Ruth ever had. I’m just saying Otani is having one of the greatest seasons of all time. And even if it’s 130th in WAR that’s pretty darn good. I’d argue that there’s a precedence here set by Otani being a great if not the greatest two way player the game has ever seen. That has implications far greater than stats.
That’s where your bias comes from, if you would’ve had the chance to watch Babe, this wouldn’t even be an argument. You just want the guy you got to see to be the greatest.
“Nobody has done what Ohtani has done”. Ohtani plays baseball, 130 guys have had better seasons.
No one has done what Otani has done. And in sports that’s what makes you great. Hence one of the greatest seasons ever. Which brings me to my initial call out of you comparing the best to the greatest. See how that works?
Nobody has done what he’s done and yet there’s just so many guys who are better.
Let me put it this way… Ohtani hasn’t even come close to what Babe has done.
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Both are great players, in their respective time eras. Would Ohtani hit the amount of home runs he has with fields that Ruth played in? Would Ruth be able to hit the speed and movement of pitches in today’s game? We will never know but both players we can all agree are amazing baseball players.
It’s like saying Conner McDavid is better than Gretzky because of X stat. Would Gretzky put up 215 points in today’s game? Probably not. But McDavid also wouldn’t be as effective in the 80’s as he is in today’s game.
The true marker would have been comparing players in the same era, like Gretzky vs Lemieux, Bird vs Johnson etc. What it boils down too for me, a players greatness is in what he does when he plays or played, in that specific era.
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
do yourself a favor watch the games. No one is doing what Otani is doing. And if Otani can do this for a few years he’ll surpass Babe as the best two way player ever.
I’m not saying Otani is having a better season than Ruth ever had. I’m just saying Otani is having one of the greatest seasons of all time. And even if it’s 130th in WAR that’s pretty darn good. I’d argue that there’s a precedence here set by Otani being a great if not the greatest two way player the game has ever seen. That has implications far greater than stats.
That’s where your bias comes from, if you would’ve had the chance to watch Babe, this wouldn’t even be an argument. You just want the guy you got to see to be the greatest.
“Nobody has done what Ohtani has done”. Ohtani plays baseball, 130 guys have had better seasons.
No one has done what Otani has done. And in sports that’s what makes you great. Hence one of the greatest seasons ever. Which brings me to my initial call out of you comparing the best to the greatest. See how that works?
Nobody has done what he’s done and yet there’s just so many guys who are better.
Let me put it this way… Ohtani hasn’t even come close to what Babe has done.
Again you are comparing the best to greatest. Not saying greatest of all time, but greatness on a singular season level.The same goes for best. You’ve done a good job of finding the best statistical seasons and using them to propel you’re argument. Your argument is using stats. People don’t always remember or care for stats. They remember legacy or a moment that changes things in a given sport. These are considered great. To do what Otani has done over this season is in fact one of the greatest seasons baseball has ever seen.
I don’t like the other sports analysis as much when comparing two sports. Yet here we go. Let me ask you, and these are clear hypotheticals because Otani is essential playing his first full season, is Steph Curry the best NBA player? Not by a long shot. In comparison with his generation in any given year he’s constantly not even considered top 5.
That being said if the NBA continues its play style trajectory, Steph Curry will be brought up and credited with having a massive hand in creating the modern play style. He essential is a success and an overachieving example of modern analytics.
Greatness can change the game. And maybe it’s all relative to ones own opinion, but I can look back and pinpoint exactly when the NBA changed. In comparison to the MLB. If... and yes it’s yet to be seen, but if, what Otani and what has done changes the game how is that not greatness? This would further emphasize the importance of this 2021 season. In 20 years maybe a majority of star players are two way guys.
This is yet to be proven, but in 20,30,40,50 years will we be looking back at Otani’s season this year. I’m very confident we will. Even more so if it’s never replicated. The impact of greatness takes time. Like a fine wine I think Otani’s season this year will resonate and become more impactful later down the line. Greatest or greatness doesn’t have to be stats. It can be an impact or a change. This is why I’ll circle back to my point. Best and greatest aren’t the same.
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@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
do yourself a favor watch the games. No one is doing what Otani is doing. And if Otani can do this for a few years he’ll surpass Babe as the best two way player ever.
I’m not saying Otani is having a better season than Ruth ever had. I’m just saying Otani is having one of the greatest seasons of all time. And even if it’s 130th in WAR that’s pretty darn good. I’d argue that there’s a precedence here set by Otani being a great if not the greatest two way player the game has ever seen. That has implications far greater than stats.
That’s where your bias comes from, if you would’ve had the chance to watch Babe, this wouldn’t even be an argument. You just want the guy you got to see to be the greatest.
“Nobody has done what Ohtani has done”. Ohtani plays baseball, 130 guys have had better seasons.
No one has done what Otani has done. And in sports that’s what makes you great. Hence one of the greatest seasons ever. Which brings me to my initial call out of you comparing the best to the greatest. See how that works?
Nobody has done what he’s done and yet there’s just so many guys who are better.
Let me put it this way… Ohtani hasn’t even come close to what Babe has done.
Again you are comparing the best to greatest. Not saying greatest of all time, but greatness on a singular season level.The same goes for best. You’ve done a good job of finding the best statistical seasons and using them to propel you’re argument. Your argument is using stats. People don’t always remember or care for stats. They remember legacy or a moment that changes things in a given sport. These are considered great. To do what Otani has done over this season is in fact one of the greatest seasons baseball has ever seen.
I don’t like the other sports analysis as much when comparing two sports. Yet here we go. Let me ask you, and these are clear hypotheticals because Otani is essential playing his first full season, is Steph Curry the best NBA player? Not by a long shot. In comparison with his generation in any given year he’s constantly not even considered top 5.
That being said if the NBA continues its play style trajectory, Steph Curry will be brought up and credited with having a massive hand in creating the modern play style. He essential is a success and an overachieving example of modern analytics.
Greatness can change the game. And maybe it’s all relative to ones own opinion, but I can look back and pinpoint exactly when the NBA changed. In comparison to the MLB. If... and yes it’s yet to be seen, but if, what Otani and what has done changes the game how is that not greatness? This would further emphasize the importance of this 2021 season. In 20 years maybe a majority of star players are two way guys.
This is yet to be proven, but in 20,30,40,50 years will we be looking back at Otani’s season this year. I’m very confident we will. Even more so if it’s never replicated. The impact of greatness takes time. Like a fine wine I think Otani’s season this year will resonate and become more impactful later down the line. Greatest or greatness doesn’t have to be stats. It can be an impact or a change. This is why I’ll circle back to my point. Best and greatest aren’t the same.
Let me put it this way, Ruth is better than Ohtani and greater than Ohtani
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
do yourself a favor watch the games. No one is doing what Otani is doing. And if Otani can do this for a few years he’ll surpass Babe as the best two way player ever.
I’m not saying Otani is having a better season than Ruth ever had. I’m just saying Otani is having one of the greatest seasons of all time. And even if it’s 130th in WAR that’s pretty darn good. I’d argue that there’s a precedence here set by Otani being a great if not the greatest two way player the game has ever seen. That has implications far greater than stats.
That’s where your bias comes from, if you would’ve had the chance to watch Babe, this wouldn’t even be an argument. You just want the guy you got to see to be the greatest.
“Nobody has done what Ohtani has done”. Ohtani plays baseball, 130 guys have had better seasons.
No one has done what Otani has done. And in sports that’s what makes you great. Hence one of the greatest seasons ever. Which brings me to my initial call out of you comparing the best to the greatest. See how that works?
Nobody has done what he’s done and yet there’s just so many guys who are better.
Let me put it this way… Ohtani hasn’t even come close to what Babe has done.
Again you are comparing the best to greatest. Not saying greatest of all time, but greatness on a singular season level.The same goes for best. You’ve done a good job of finding the best statistical seasons and using them to propel you’re argument. Your argument is using stats. People don’t always remember or care for stats. They remember legacy or a moment that changes things in a given sport. These are considered great. To do what Otani has done over this season is in fact one of the greatest seasons baseball has ever seen.
I don’t like the other sports analysis as much when comparing two sports. Yet here we go. Let me ask you, and these are clear hypotheticals because Otani is essential playing his first full season, is Steph Curry the best NBA player? Not by a long shot. In comparison with his generation in any given year he’s constantly not even considered top 5.
That being said if the NBA continues its play style trajectory, Steph Curry will be brought up and credited with having a massive hand in creating the modern play style. He essential is a success and an overachieving example of modern analytics.
Greatness can change the game. And maybe it’s all relative to ones own opinion, but I can look back and pinpoint exactly when the NBA changed. In comparison to the MLB. If... and yes it’s yet to be seen, but if, what Otani and what has done changes the game how is that not greatness? This would further emphasize the importance of this 2021 season. In 20 years maybe a majority of star players are two way guys.
This is yet to be proven, but in 20,30,40,50 years will we be looking back at Otani’s season this year. I’m very confident we will. Even more so if it’s never replicated. The impact of greatness takes time. Like a fine wine I think Otani’s season this year will resonate and become more impactful later down the line. Greatest or greatness doesn’t have to be stats. It can be an impact or a change. This is why I’ll circle back to my point. Best and greatest aren’t the same.
Let me put it this way, Ruth is better than Ohtani and greater than Ohtani
Ill give ya that.... Ruth was without a doubt the best Alcoholic and Hot dog eater of his time.
Ruth stats are so dam padded. He was hitting [censored] pitchers that would throw 200 pitches a game on a wet noodle arm, who probably was a full time factory worker and threw lob balls for MLB as a side gig.
Level of competition matters. MLB didnt allow non whites to play. Thats huge. Dam all the stats that are irrelevant in a irrelevant era.
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
do yourself a favor watch the games. No one is doing what Otani is doing. And if Otani can do this for a few years he’ll surpass Babe as the best two way player ever.
I’m not saying Otani is having a better season than Ruth ever had. I’m just saying Otani is having one of the greatest seasons of all time. And even if it’s 130th in WAR that’s pretty darn good. I’d argue that there’s a precedence here set by Otani being a great if not the greatest two way player the game has ever seen. That has implications far greater than stats.
That’s where your bias comes from, if you would’ve had the chance to watch Babe, this wouldn’t even be an argument. You just want the guy you got to see to be the greatest.
“Nobody has done what Ohtani has done”. Ohtani plays baseball, 130 guys have had better seasons.
No one has done what Otani has done. And in sports that’s what makes you great. Hence one of the greatest seasons ever. Which brings me to my initial call out of you comparing the best to the greatest. See how that works?
Nobody has done what he’s done and yet there’s just so many guys who are better.
Let me put it this way… Ohtani hasn’t even come close to what Babe has done.
Again you are comparing the best to greatest. Not saying greatest of all time, but greatness on a singular season level.The same goes for best. You’ve done a good job of finding the best statistical seasons and using them to propel you’re argument. Your argument is using stats. People don’t always remember or care for stats. They remember legacy or a moment that changes things in a given sport. These are considered great. To do what Otani has done over this season is in fact one of the greatest seasons baseball has ever seen.
I don’t like the other sports analysis as much when comparing two sports. Yet here we go. Let me ask you, and these are clear hypotheticals because Otani is essential playing his first full season, is Steph Curry the best NBA player? Not by a long shot. In comparison with his generation in any given year he’s constantly not even considered top 5.
That being said if the NBA continues its play style trajectory, Steph Curry will be brought up and credited with having a massive hand in creating the modern play style. He essential is a success and an overachieving example of modern analytics.
Greatness can change the game. And maybe it’s all relative to ones own opinion, but I can look back and pinpoint exactly when the NBA changed. In comparison to the MLB. If... and yes it’s yet to be seen, but if, what Otani and what has done changes the game how is that not greatness? This would further emphasize the importance of this 2021 season. In 20 years maybe a majority of star players are two way guys.
This is yet to be proven, but in 20,30,40,50 years will we be looking back at Otani’s season this year. I’m very confident we will. Even more so if it’s never replicated. The impact of greatness takes time. Like a fine wine I think Otani’s season this year will resonate and become more impactful later down the line. Greatest or greatness doesn’t have to be stats. It can be an impact or a change. This is why I’ll circle back to my point. Best and greatest aren’t the same.
Let me put it this way, Ruth is better than Ohtani and greater than Ohtani
That’s not your initial point. You took the best statistical seasons by one player, Ruth, then tried to say Otani’s season isn’t great or not one of the greatest. Otani has one full season in the league healthy. There’s no comparison. You’re comparing the best or one of the best players to a guy that just started his career. In terms of individual seasons, Otani is changing the game and is having one of the greatest seasons by one player ever.
You’re not accounting for non stats which puts a huge hole in your entire argument. You’re not accounting for impact-fulness and sheer never been seen before performance. The fact that you have to go all the way back to Babe Ruth to find a two way player that can even hold Ruth’s jock says volumes to what Otani is doing.
Not saying he’s better than Ruth.
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I think the point @KDClemson_PSN is missing is that most people aren't arguing that Ohtani is a better player than Ruth. Just stating the fact that this season considering he is pitching and hitting is an anomaly and is very impressive.
The other thing I love about debates across eras is that there is no definitive way to prove x player is better than y player. Noone knows if Babe would've taken advantage of all the new sports science and been the best player regardless of era or if he would've burnt out against the level of competition. Noone knows if Ohtani would've pitched 1 year and been done because of injuries or if he would've adjusted his game because of the time and been just as good or gotten shelled. It's fun to debate top players of different eras but acting like you can prove they would've been better in another time is just silly.
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@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
do yourself a favor watch the games. No one is doing what Otani is doing. And if Otani can do this for a few years he’ll surpass Babe as the best two way player ever.
I’m not saying Otani is having a better season than Ruth ever had. I’m just saying Otani is having one of the greatest seasons of all time. And even if it’s 130th in WAR that’s pretty darn good. I’d argue that there’s a precedence here set by Otani being a great if not the greatest two way player the game has ever seen. That has implications far greater than stats.
Herein lies the problem. He's having a great season. His two way ability is an impressive feat. But what about his season screams "one of the greatest seasons of all time"? The metrics certainly don't back that up.
This has been my point. We can appreciate and celebrate the season Ohtani is having, without trying to make it into something it's not.
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@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
do yourself a favor watch the games. No one is doing what Otani is doing. And if Otani can do this for a few years he’ll surpass Babe as the best two way player ever.
I’m not saying Otani is having a better season than Ruth ever had. I’m just saying Otani is having one of the greatest seasons of all time. And even if it’s 130th in WAR that’s pretty darn good. I’d argue that there’s a precedence here set by Otani being a great if not the greatest two way player the game has ever seen. That has implications far greater than stats.
That’s where your bias comes from, if you would’ve had the chance to watch Babe, this wouldn’t even be an argument. You just want the guy you got to see to be the greatest.
“Nobody has done what Ohtani has done”. Ohtani plays baseball, 130 guys have had better seasons.
No one has done what Otani has done. And in sports that’s what makes you great. Hence one of the greatest seasons ever. Which brings me to my initial call out of you comparing the best to the greatest. See how that works?
Nobody has done what he’s done and yet there’s just so many guys who are better.
Let me put it this way… Ohtani hasn’t even come close to what Babe has done.
Greatness can change the game. And maybe it’s all relative to ones own opinion, but I can look back and pinpoint exactly when the NBA changed. In comparison to the MLB. If... and yes it’s yet to be seen, but if, what Otani and what has done changes the game how is that not greatness? This would further emphasize the importance of this 2021 season. In 20 years maybe a majority of star players are two way guys.
This is yet to be proven, but in 20,30,40,50 years will we be looking back at Otani’s season this year. I’m very confident we will. Even more so if it’s never replicated. The impact of greatness takes time. Like a fine wine I think Otani’s season this year will resonate and become more impactful later down the line. Greatest or greatness doesn’t have to be stats. It can be an impact or a change. This is why I’ll circle back to my point. Best and greatest aren’t the same.
You're conflating greatness and importance.
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I'm sad I missed out on this Babe Ruth debate earlier. Some of the takes in here are laughable.
Babe Ruth completely revolutionized the game. To go from 138 career HRs to top the leaderboards to 714, entirely because of one players ability is insane. The previous record by Roger Connor stood for 14 years before Babe obliterated it. The year Ruth hit his last HR, Gehrig was second all time with 378. That should explain how much he stood out. He did this while averaging .342 for his career.
"He did it against plumbers/janitors"
Why couldn't anyone else even come close then? Why would it take nearly 40 years for another all time great to break the record?Some of you are fixated on what would happen if player X played right now after showing up in a time machine. This isnt about who's more athletic. It's about who is so far advanced beyond their contemporaries, that you cannot dispute their greatness. WAR measures this in ways that traditional statistics cannot.
Ohtani is a very good/great player, no doubt, but he isnt in Ruth's realm.
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@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
do yourself a favor watch the games. No one is doing what Otani is doing. And if Otani can do this for a few years he’ll surpass Babe as the best two way player ever.
I’m not saying Otani is having a better season than Ruth ever had. I’m just saying Otani is having one of the greatest seasons of all time. And even if it’s 130th in WAR that’s pretty darn good. I’d argue that there’s a precedence here set by Otani being a great if not the greatest two way player the game has ever seen. That has implications far greater than stats.
That’s where your bias comes from, if you would’ve had the chance to watch Babe, this wouldn’t even be an argument. You just want the guy you got to see to be the greatest.
“Nobody has done what Ohtani has done”. Ohtani plays baseball, 130 guys have had better seasons.
No one has done what Otani has done. And in sports that’s what makes you great. Hence one of the greatest seasons ever. Which brings me to my initial call out of you comparing the best to the greatest. See how that works?
Nobody has done what he’s done and yet there’s just so many guys who are better.
Let me put it this way… Ohtani hasn’t even come close to what Babe has done.
Greatness can change the game. And maybe it’s all relative to ones own opinion, but I can look back and pinpoint exactly when the NBA changed. In comparison to the MLB. If... and yes it’s yet to be seen, but if, what Otani and what has done changes the game how is that not greatness? This would further emphasize the importance of this 2021 season. In 20 years maybe a majority of star players are two way guys.
This is yet to be proven, but in 20,30,40,50 years will we be looking back at Otani’s season this year. I’m very confident we will. Even more so if it’s never replicated. The impact of greatness takes time. Like a fine wine I think Otani’s season this year will resonate and become more impactful later down the line. Greatest or greatness doesn’t have to be stats. It can be an impact or a change. This is why I’ll circle back to my point. Best and greatest aren’t the same.
You're conflating greatness and importance.
Let’s not go off the rails. Greatness can have importance and in most cases does. Definitely not my point. Importance usually means there’s a need for something to happen. This doesn’t need to happen. It just happens to be that it is.
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Articles are being posted every day about Ohtani having the "Greatest Season Ever". Ohtani is about to hit the impressive 9 WAR in a season club, this is an elite club that certainly gives credit to this argument, right.
Ohtani's season is on track to be 130th all-time in WAR. For my non-sabermetrics guys, that basically means it isn't the greatest season ever, it isn't even close.
But who has the greatest season ever? Babe Ruth in 1923, the man who Ohtani is often compared to, with a 14.2 WAR season, more WAR than Ohtani has amassed in his MLB career.
How about the 2nd greatest season ever? That goes to a man by the name of Babe Ruth, who in 1921 posted a 12.9 WAR season.
How about the 3rd greatest season ever? That title goes to little-known former superstar by the name of George, George Herman, or as you may know him... Babe Ruth, with 12.6 WAR in 1927.
As a matter of fact, 5 of the 10 greatest seasons ever, and 6 of the top 11, belong to Babe Ruth.
So Shohei Ohtani, "The Next Babe Ruth" is on pace to have the 130th best season ever, whereas Ruth has half of the top 10 best seasons ever, including the top 3.
Ruth had 16 years where he played at least 100 games. This Ohtani season people are calling maybe the best in MLB history, would only be Ruth's 11th best season, and a down year for him.
Let's end with some stats simpler:
Ohtani 2021 OPS: .986
Ruth career OPS: 1.164
Ruth 1919-1924 OPS: 1.262Ohtani 2021 ERA: 3.31
Babe Ruth career ERA: 2.28Let's stop comparing a .260 hitter to a dude who hit over .370 for half a dozen seasons, to a dude who hit more home runs than the entire American League in seasons, and to a dude who beats him in almost any stat. And before the argument that Ruth played in an easier time: (1) Ruth didn't chose his era and if it was so much easier, why was he vastly better than ever other player?
You use WAR as some meaningful measuring stick when it’s not. WAR is just a fancy way to quantify a players value relative to their current competition. If Ohtani played in the same era as Babe Ruth, there is a high likelihood that he would compare favorably to Babe Ruth and in my honest opinion would exceed Babe Ruths value. During Babe Ruth’s era there was a wider gap between elite players like Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig and the rest of the field. Hence why that team won so many championships during that timeframe. We cannot make accurate comparisons between that era and the one we currently are in. So spouting smart guy stats is a useless exercise as they’re simply not comparable.
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@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
do yourself a favor watch the games. No one is doing what Otani is doing. And if Otani can do this for a few years he’ll surpass Babe as the best two way player ever.
I’m not saying Otani is having a better season than Ruth ever had. I’m just saying Otani is having one of the greatest seasons of all time. And even if it’s 130th in WAR that’s pretty darn good. I’d argue that there’s a precedence here set by Otani being a great if not the greatest two way player the game has ever seen. That has implications far greater than stats.
Herein lies the problem. He's having a great season. His two way ability is an impressive feat. But what about his season screams "one of the greatest seasons of all time"? The metrics certainly don't back that up.
This has been my point. We can appreciate and celebrate the season Ohtani is having, without trying to make it into something it's not.
Exactly, I’m not taking shots at Ohtani, it’s simply not one of the best seasons ever
