Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever"
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I have been a big proponent of WAR as a measurement, but cant figure out the discrepancy in a comparison I saw the other day. Maybe someone who is more knowledgeable can explain it to me. Looking back at the 1993 Cy Young leaders, Greg Maddux won the award but Jose Rijo is listed as having a WAR of 9.2 compared to 5.8 for Maddux. That is a very large difference that should illustrate that Rijo was monumentally better that season than Maddux.
Comparing the numbers though, I just dont get it.
Maddux threw more innings, with less walks, WHIP, HR allowed, and is better in ERA+, with 4x the number of CG as Rijo. The only things I see that Rijo takes, are Ks and HBP. Even looking at the advanced metrics, Maddux was better in OBP, SLG, OPS, BAbip, and WPA. The only thing Rijo takes there was BA by .230 to .232.
Can anyone helpfully explain why Rijo has a WAR that blows Maddux away that season when all the numbers I see dont appear to back that up?
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@KDClemson_PSN
Ohtani definitely won't win Cy Young this year but he definitely has the potential to win one in the next few years. If he won a Cy Young and MVP in the same year that would be pretty impressive. I'm not comparing the guy to Babe but he is a very impressive player. To deny that would just be ignorant. -
@kovz88_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@KDClemson_PSN
Ohtani definitely won't win Cy Young this year but he definitely has the potential to win one in the next few years. If he won a Cy Young and MVP in the same year that would be pretty impressive. I'm not comparing the guy to Babe but he is a very impressive player. To deny that would just be ignorant.Cy Young and MVP (as a hitter/position player) is what I'm assuming you meant. There have been plenty of players that have won both awards in the same season.
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@chuckclc_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lets not pretend WAR is the end all be all of evaluating a player. How well did Babe pitch in those seasons? Babe definitely has the most impressive hitting numbers of all time, but when you add in Pitching and Speed it does become a legit argument between the 2.
Plus of course the obvious 100 hundred year difference in athletic era. Apples and Oranges.
Between hitting, pitching and speed.
Babe was miles better hitting, miles better pitching, and slightly worse if that in speed.“Slightly worse in speed” Ohtani is literally as fast as Olympic sprinters of babe Ruth’s era, ya know, the fastest people in the world
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@jacksonvance35 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@chuckclc_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lets not pretend WAR is the end all be all of evaluating a player. How well did Babe pitch in those seasons? Babe definitely has the most impressive hitting numbers of all time, but when you add in Pitching and Speed it does become a legit argument between the 2.
Plus of course the obvious 100 hundred year difference in athletic era. Apples and Oranges.
Between hitting, pitching and speed.
Babe was miles better hitting, miles better pitching, and slightly worse if that in speed.“Slightly worse in speed” Ohtani is literally as fast as Olympic sprinters of babe Ruth’s era, ya know, the fastest people in the world
Ok each generation gets more physically dominant than the previous. Have Ohtani born in 1900 and he’s barely faster than Ruth if at all
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jacksonvance35 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@chuckclc_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lets not pretend WAR is the end all be all of evaluating a player. How well did Babe pitch in those seasons? Babe definitely has the most impressive hitting numbers of all time, but when you add in Pitching and Speed it does become a legit argument between the 2.
Plus of course the obvious 100 hundred year difference in athletic era. Apples and Oranges.
Between hitting, pitching and speed.
Babe was miles better hitting, miles better pitching, and slightly worse if that in speed.“Slightly worse in speed” Ohtani is literally as fast as Olympic sprinters of babe Ruth’s era, ya know, the fastest people in the world
Ok each generation gets more physically dominant than the previous. Have Ohtani born in 1900 and he’s barely faster than Ruth if at all
So you’ll concede that ohtani is stronger, faster, and more athletic than Ruth? And that the era each player plays in carries significant weight in evaluating their performance?
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@jacksonvance35 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jacksonvance35 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@chuckclc_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lets not pretend WAR is the end all be all of evaluating a player. How well did Babe pitch in those seasons? Babe definitely has the most impressive hitting numbers of all time, but when you add in Pitching and Speed it does become a legit argument between the 2.
Plus of course the obvious 100 hundred year difference in athletic era. Apples and Oranges.
Between hitting, pitching and speed.
Babe was miles better hitting, miles better pitching, and slightly worse if that in speed.“Slightly worse in speed” Ohtani is literally as fast as Olympic sprinters of babe Ruth’s era, ya know, the fastest people in the world
Ok each generation gets more physically dominant than the previous. Have Ohtani born in 1900 and he’s barely faster than Ruth if at all
So you’ll concede that ohtani is stronger, faster, and more athletic than Ruth? And that the era each player plays in carries significant weight in evaluating their performance?
Yes and that Ruth was more exponentially more dominant among his peers than Ohtani was
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jacksonvance35 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jacksonvance35 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@chuckclc_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lets not pretend WAR is the end all be all of evaluating a player. How well did Babe pitch in those seasons? Babe definitely has the most impressive hitting numbers of all time, but when you add in Pitching and Speed it does become a legit argument between the 2.
Plus of course the obvious 100 hundred year difference in athletic era. Apples and Oranges.
Between hitting, pitching and speed.
Babe was miles better hitting, miles better pitching, and slightly worse if that in speed.“Slightly worse in speed” Ohtani is literally as fast as Olympic sprinters of babe Ruth’s era, ya know, the fastest people in the world
Ok each generation gets more physically dominant than the previous. Have Ohtani born in 1900 and he’s barely faster than Ruth if at all
So you’ll concede that ohtani is stronger, faster, and more athletic than Ruth? And that the era each player plays in carries significant weight in evaluating their performance?
Yes and that Ruth was more exponentially more dominant among his peers than Ohtani was
So it’s fair to say a player that dominated an inferior league is not as talented as one that is dominating the big leagues today? The worst hitter in today’s game would hit 45 homers a hundred years ago
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@jacksonvance35 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jacksonvance35 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jacksonvance35 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@chuckclc_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lets not pretend WAR is the end all be all of evaluating a player. How well did Babe pitch in those seasons? Babe definitely has the most impressive hitting numbers of all time, but when you add in Pitching and Speed it does become a legit argument between the 2.
Plus of course the obvious 100 hundred year difference in athletic era. Apples and Oranges.
Between hitting, pitching and speed.
Babe was miles better hitting, miles better pitching, and slightly worse if that in speed.“Slightly worse in speed” Ohtani is literally as fast as Olympic sprinters of babe Ruth’s era, ya know, the fastest people in the world
Ok each generation gets more physically dominant than the previous. Have Ohtani born in 1900 and he’s barely faster than Ruth if at all
So you’ll concede that ohtani is stronger, faster, and more athletic than Ruth? And that the era each player plays in carries significant weight in evaluating their performance?
Yes and that Ruth was more exponentially more dominant among his peers than Ohtani was
So it’s fair to say a player that dominated an inferior league is not as talented as one that is dominating the big leagues today? The worst hitter in today’s game would hit 45 homers a hundred years ago
Not if they grew up in the 1900s, no they wouldn't have.
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@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
I have been a big proponent of WAR as a measurement, but cant figure out the discrepancy in a comparison I saw the other day. Maybe someone who is more knowledgeable can explain it to me. Looking back at the 1993 Cy Young leaders, Greg Maddux won the award but Jose Rijo is listed as having a WAR of 9.2 compared to 5.8 for Maddux. That is a very large difference that should illustrate that Rijo was monumentally better that season than Maddux.
Comparing the numbers though, I just dont get it.
Maddux threw more innings, with less walks, WHIP, HR allowed, and is better in ERA+, with 4x the number of CG as Rijo. The only things I see that Rijo takes, are Ks and HBP. Even looking at the advanced metrics, Maddux was better in OBP, SLG, OPS, BAbip, and WPA. The only thing Rijo takes there was BA by .230 to .232.
Can anyone helpfully explain why Rijo has a WAR that blows Maddux away that season when all the numbers I see dont appear to back that up?
Anybody help me out on this?
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@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
I have been a big proponent of WAR as a measurement, but cant figure out the discrepancy in a comparison I saw the other day. Maybe someone who is more knowledgeable can explain it to me. Looking back at the 1993 Cy Young leaders, Greg Maddux won the award but Jose Rijo is listed as having a WAR of 9.2 compared to 5.8 for Maddux. That is a very large difference that should illustrate that Rijo was monumentally better that season than Maddux.
Comparing the numbers though, I just dont get it.
Maddux threw more innings, with less walks, WHIP, HR allowed, and is better in ERA+, with 4x the number of CG as Rijo. The only things I see that Rijo takes, are Ks and HBP. Even looking at the advanced metrics, Maddux was better in OBP, SLG, OPS, BAbip, and WPA. The only thing Rijo takes there was BA by .230 to .232.
Can anyone helpfully explain why Rijo has a WAR that blows Maddux away that season when all the numbers I see dont appear to back that up?
Anybody help me out on this?
Pitching WAR weighs strikeouts far more heavily than any other attribute. Pitchers who pitch to contact will always have lower WAR than strikeout pitchers because of the ball being put into play far more often. A strikeout pitcher will have less balls in play usually resulting in lower averages against him. The batters will not reach base unless the catcher fails to catch the pitch. We all know that Maddux didn’t rely on strikeouts to get by instead he relied on the batters to get themselves out by chasing pitches that he wanted them to chase resulting in a lot of weak contact. This is also why WAR is really not a good measuring stick for pitchers. It doesn’t weigh the peripheral attributes high enough for it to be a reasonable statistic. For example: Max Fried has one of the highest pitching WAR’s in the NL. I think he only trails 2 pitchers in this category however, there is not a sane person out there that would say he is a Cy young candidate. Heck he isn’t even the best pitcher on his own team. Not saying he isn’t good, he is definitely a top 10 pitcher in the NL just not this year.
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@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
I have been a big proponent of WAR as a measurement, but cant figure out the discrepancy in a comparison I saw the other day. Maybe someone who is more knowledgeable can explain it to me. Looking back at the 1993 Cy Young leaders, Greg Maddux won the award but Jose Rijo is listed as having a WAR of 9.2 compared to 5.8 for Maddux. That is a very large difference that should illustrate that Rijo was monumentally better that season than Maddux.
Comparing the numbers though, I just dont get it.
Maddux threw more innings, with less walks, WHIP, HR allowed, and is better in ERA+, with 4x the number of CG as Rijo. The only things I see that Rijo takes, are Ks and HBP. Even looking at the advanced metrics, Maddux was better in OBP, SLG, OPS, BAbip, and WPA. The only thing Rijo takes there was BA by .230 to .232.
Can anyone helpfully explain why Rijo has a WAR that blows Maddux away that season when all the numbers I see dont appear to back that up?
Anybody help me out on this?
Pitching WAR weighs strikeouts far more heavily than any other attribute. Pitchers who pitch to contact will always have lower WAR than strikeout pitchers because of the ball being put into play far more often. A strikeout pitcher will have less balls in play usually resulting in lower averages against him. The batters will not reach base unless the catcher fails to catch the pitch. We all know that Maddux didn’t rely on strikeouts to get by instead he relied on the batters to get themselves out by chasing pitches that he wanted them to chase resulting in a lot of weak contact. This is also why WAR is really not a good measuring stick for pitchers. It doesn’t weigh the peripheral attributes high enough for it to be a reasonable statistic. For example: Max Fried has one of the highest pitching WAR’s in the NL. I think he only trails 2 pitchers in this category however, there is not a sane person out there that would say he is a Cy young candidate. Heck he isn’t even the best pitcher on his own team. Not saying he isn’t good, he is definitely a top 10 pitcher in the NL just not this year.
There is no way that is the answer to why Rijo 9.2 WAR, and Maddux 5.8 WAR in 1993. I appreciate the response, but there is just no way.
Rijo had 227 Ks in 257 IP
Maddux 197 Ks in 267 IPIt's not that big of a difference to cause a 3.4 higher rated WAR. Adding onto that, Kevin Appier had a 9.3 WAR that season and had 186 Ks.
I also had to look up this season pitchers, and Fried is 13th in WAR in the NL.
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@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
I have been a big proponent of WAR as a measurement, but cant figure out the discrepancy in a comparison I saw the other day. Maybe someone who is more knowledgeable can explain it to me. Looking back at the 1993 Cy Young leaders, Greg Maddux won the award but Jose Rijo is listed as having a WAR of 9.2 compared to 5.8 for Maddux. That is a very large difference that should illustrate that Rijo was monumentally better that season than Maddux.
Comparing the numbers though, I just dont get it.
Maddux threw more innings, with less walks, WHIP, HR allowed, and is better in ERA+, with 4x the number of CG as Rijo. The only things I see that Rijo takes, are Ks and HBP. Even looking at the advanced metrics, Maddux was better in OBP, SLG, OPS, BAbip, and WPA. The only thing Rijo takes there was BA by .230 to .232.
Can anyone helpfully explain why Rijo has a WAR that blows Maddux away that season when all the numbers I see dont appear to back that up?
Anybody help me out on this?
Pitching WAR weighs strikeouts far more heavily than any other attribute. Pitchers who pitch to contact will always have lower WAR than strikeout pitchers because of the ball being put into play far more often. A strikeout pitcher will have less balls in play usually resulting in lower averages against him. The batters will not reach base unless the catcher fails to catch the pitch. We all know that Maddux didn’t rely on strikeouts to get by instead he relied on the batters to get themselves out by chasing pitches that he wanted them to chase resulting in a lot of weak contact. This is also why WAR is really not a good measuring stick for pitchers. It doesn’t weigh the peripheral attributes high enough for it to be a reasonable statistic. For example: Max Fried has one of the highest pitching WAR’s in the NL. I think he only trails 2 pitchers in this category however, there is not a sane person out there that would say he is a Cy young candidate. Heck he isn’t even the best pitcher on his own team. Not saying he isn’t good, he is definitely a top 10 pitcher in the NL just not this year.
There is no way that is the answer to why Rijo 9.2 WAR, and Maddux 5.8 WAR in 1993. I appreciate the response, but there is just no way.
Rijo had 227 Ks in 257 IP
Maddux 197 Ks in 267 IPIt's not that big of a difference to cause a 3.4 higher rated WAR. Adding onto that, Kevin Appier had a 9.3 WAR that season and had 186 Ks.
I also had to look up this season pitchers, and Fried is 13th in WAR in the NL.
I said strikeouts weigh heaviest when calculating WAR. Also have to consider the ballpark that Rijo played in. And yes WAR actually takes into account whether the wind is blowing in at Wrigley Field.
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@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
I have been a big proponent of WAR as a measurement, but cant figure out the discrepancy in a comparison I saw the other day. Maybe someone who is more knowledgeable can explain it to me. Looking back at the 1993 Cy Young leaders, Greg Maddux won the award but Jose Rijo is listed as having a WAR of 9.2 compared to 5.8 for Maddux. That is a very large difference that should illustrate that Rijo was monumentally better that season than Maddux.
Comparing the numbers though, I just dont get it.
Maddux threw more innings, with less walks, WHIP, HR allowed, and is better in ERA+, with 4x the number of CG as Rijo. The only things I see that Rijo takes, are Ks and HBP. Even looking at the advanced metrics, Maddux was better in OBP, SLG, OPS, BAbip, and WPA. The only thing Rijo takes there was BA by .230 to .232.
Can anyone helpfully explain why Rijo has a WAR that blows Maddux away that season when all the numbers I see dont appear to back that up?
Anybody help me out on this?
Pitching WAR weighs strikeouts far more heavily than any other attribute. Pitchers who pitch to contact will always have lower WAR than strikeout pitchers because of the ball being put into play far more often. A strikeout pitcher will have less balls in play usually resulting in lower averages against him. The batters will not reach base unless the catcher fails to catch the pitch. We all know that Maddux didn’t rely on strikeouts to get by instead he relied on the batters to get themselves out by chasing pitches that he wanted them to chase resulting in a lot of weak contact. This is also why WAR is really not a good measuring stick for pitchers. It doesn’t weigh the peripheral attributes high enough for it to be a reasonable statistic. For example: Max Fried has one of the highest pitching WAR’s in the NL. I think he only trails 2 pitchers in this category however, there is not a sane person out there that would say he is a Cy young candidate. Heck he isn’t even the best pitcher on his own team. Not saying he isn’t good, he is definitely a top 10 pitcher in the NL just not this year.
There is no way that is the answer to why Rijo 9.2 WAR, and Maddux 5.8 WAR in 1993. I appreciate the response, but there is just no way.
Rijo had 227 Ks in 257 IP
Maddux 197 Ks in 267 IPIt's not that big of a difference to cause a 3.4 higher rated WAR. Adding onto that, Kevin Appier had a 9.3 WAR that season and had 186 Ks.
I also had to look up this season pitchers, and Fried is 13th in WAR in the NL.
I said strikeouts weigh heaviest when calculating WAR. Also have to consider the ballpark that Rijo played in. And yes WAR actually takes into account whether the wind is blowing in at Wrigley Field.
I get what you are saying, but then explain Kevin Appier with less Ks and an even higher WAR than Rijo with less K/9?
Edit: I am just trying to decipher why Maddux has significantly less WAR than Rijo, despite nearly all the numbers not supporting it. Seems like an anomoly for that season as I can normally determine why a player has a higher WAR.
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@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
I have been a big proponent of WAR as a measurement, but cant figure out the discrepancy in a comparison I saw the other day. Maybe someone who is more knowledgeable can explain it to me. Looking back at the 1993 Cy Young leaders, Greg Maddux won the award but Jose Rijo is listed as having a WAR of 9.2 compared to 5.8 for Maddux. That is a very large difference that should illustrate that Rijo was monumentally better that season than Maddux.
Comparing the numbers though, I just dont get it.
Maddux threw more innings, with less walks, WHIP, HR allowed, and is better in ERA+, with 4x the number of CG as Rijo. The only things I see that Rijo takes, are Ks and HBP. Even looking at the advanced metrics, Maddux was better in OBP, SLG, OPS, BAbip, and WPA. The only thing Rijo takes there was BA by .230 to .232.
Can anyone helpfully explain why Rijo has a WAR that blows Maddux away that season when all the numbers I see dont appear to back that up?
Anybody help me out on this?
Pitching WAR weighs strikeouts far more heavily than any other attribute. Pitchers who pitch to contact will always have lower WAR than strikeout pitchers because of the ball being put into play far more often. A strikeout pitcher will have less balls in play usually resulting in lower averages against him. The batters will not reach base unless the catcher fails to catch the pitch. We all know that Maddux didn’t rely on strikeouts to get by instead he relied on the batters to get themselves out by chasing pitches that he wanted them to chase resulting in a lot of weak contact. This is also why WAR is really not a good measuring stick for pitchers. It doesn’t weigh the peripheral attributes high enough for it to be a reasonable statistic. For example: Max Fried has one of the highest pitching WAR’s in the NL. I think he only trails 2 pitchers in this category however, there is not a sane person out there that would say he is a Cy young candidate. Heck he isn’t even the best pitcher on his own team. Not saying he isn’t good, he is definitely a top 10 pitcher in the NL just not this year.
There is no way that is the answer to why Rijo 9.2 WAR, and Maddux 5.8 WAR in 1993. I appreciate the response, but there is just no way.
Rijo had 227 Ks in 257 IP
Maddux 197 Ks in 267 IPIt's not that big of a difference to cause a 3.4 higher rated WAR. Adding onto that, Kevin Appier had a 9.3 WAR that season and had 186 Ks.
I also had to look up this season pitchers, and Fried is 13th in WAR in the NL.
I said strikeouts weigh heaviest when calculating WAR. Also have to consider the ballpark that Rijo played in. And yes WAR actually takes into account whether the wind is blowing in at Wrigley Field.
I get what you are saying, but then explain Kevin Appier with less Ks and an even higher WAR than Rijo with less K/9?
Edit: I am just trying to decipher why Maddux has significantly less WAR than Rijo, despite nearly all the numbers not supporting it. Seems like an anomoly for that season as I can normally determine why a player has a higher WAR.
What you’re noticing is precisely why WAR is not a statistic which accurately reflects a pitchers value. It’s much more useful for position players than pitchers.
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@chandaman625_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
He’s possibly going to be the only player ever to win the Mvp, Cy young award, Silver slugger, and depending on how Vladdy & Salvy’s seasons end, even possibly the Hank Aaron award. You say a triple crown is impressive, then how about a full award sweep? That’s not the most impressive single season ever to you? & not the best player on his team? Sure, let me see Trout try to hit 50 homers, with 25 swiped bags, and an 11-2 record with a sub 3 ERA against today’s American League. Ohtani would crush trout if he pitched to him, & I bet Trout prays that he never has to hit against Ohtani. Besides Ohtani is younger than trout so he even has more potential to achieve a better season compared to Trout. I love Mike Trout but he’s not the same as Ohtani, Trout is a talent of the decade and will forever be remembered for his quick ascension to greatness. As for Shohei, he’s a generational talent, like a Babe Ruth or Willie Mays. There’s only one that can do what he does, to the full extent of what he does, as great as he does it. & there won’t be another man to recreate his season until your great grandkids have grandkids.
Ohtani will not win Cy Young and I also won’t be telling my grandkids about Ohtani either
Haha then you’re not a true baseball fan, you don’t appreciate his talent.
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What we debatin... of course this is Ohtani greatest season ever
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Hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
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The fact that Babe Ruth needs to be brought up to discount Ohtani's season shows how good his past 2 seasons have been. Here's a link comparing Babe Ruth and Ohtanis first 5 MLB seasons. https://stathead.com/baseball/player-comparison.cgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1=ruthba01&p1yrfrom=1914&p1yrto=1919&player_id2=ohtansh01&p2yrfrom=2018&p2yrto=2022&type=b
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