Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever"
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@dbarber600_MLBTS wondering how many people are gonna have to prove you wrong before you stop responding, what are we at, 5?
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@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
If it was 180 WAR to 175 maybe you’d have some credibly but it’s literally a huge gap and then when anybody tries to explain to you how your argument has holes and can be proven to be a poor argument you just yell that it’s your opinion and can’t possibly be wrong
Yeah it is a decent sized gap and Cobb played a lot more games and had a lot more plate appearances.
WAR aside, it is a lot closer of a debate.
That is what makes his avg and hits and how many times he struck out more impressive with that many PA and GP he hit over .300 23 straight years, had over 200 hits 8 season over .400 avg 3 times.
Even with all of that, we have wRC+ to tell us that Ruth just mashing HR after HR was overall more productive.
I am not going to get into all of that, there is no point on which you do not understand what it means to be the best ALL AROUND player. Cobb was the best hitter ever, Ruth was one of the Best power Hitters of all time the best is debatable, COBB is the Best ALL AROUND player ever IMO.
wRC+ literally tells us that Ruth was the better offensive player, period. Sometimes contact and speed is better, sometimes power is better. In this case, we can clearly see that Ruth’s power made him the better offensive player as opposed to Cobb’s contact and speed.
wRC+ is why we’re able to compare David fletcher to Joey Gallo, and determine Gallo has been a much better offensive player this year, despite fletcher having a .291 average and Gallo having a .201 average.
The best player ever is not just hitting it overall , COBB was the BETTER player that is what I think you can think Ruth and that is ok.
The stats being used (that we have) measure the overall player and not just offense. Stats say that Ruth was overall the better player. Like I said it's closer than some are saying but they still say he was better.
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarber600_MLBTS LOL now I know your trolling because Ruth was a better defender too, how does Cobb have a better arm when he has a lower defensive WAR and Ruth literally pitched earlier
So his pure offensive value (wRC+) is worse and his defense. Stop trolling
That is the problem with you, you only use these formula that were made up to try and calculate the value of players but the problem is the formulas were made according to the players form the Nineties on, The formulas do not calculate how the players were actually valued then. Stop with the all the formulas and go do some of your own research.
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@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarber600_MLBTS LOL now I know your trolling because Ruth was a better defender too, how does Cobb have a better arm when he has a lower defensive WAR and Ruth literally pitched earlier
So his pure offensive value (wRC+) is worse and his defense. Stop trolling
That is the problem with you, you only use these formula that were made up to try and calculate the value of players but the problem is the formulas were made according to the players form the Nineties on, The formulas do not calculate how the players were actually valued then. Stop with the all the formulas and go do some of your own research.
Incorrect, WAR was literally made to compare across eras
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarber600_MLBTS LOL now I know your trolling because Ruth was a better defender too, how does Cobb have a better arm when he has a lower defensive WAR and Ruth literally pitched earlier
So his pure offensive value (wRC+) is worse and his defense. Stop trolling
That is the problem with you, you only use these formula that were made up to try and calculate the value of players but the problem is the formulas were made according to the players form the Nineties on, The formulas do not calculate how the players were actually valued then. Stop with the all the formulas and go do some of your own research.
Incorrect, WAR was literally made to compare across eras
There it has been proven to be flawed.
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@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
If it was 180 WAR to 175 maybe you’d have some credibly but it’s literally a huge gap and then when anybody tries to explain to you how your argument has holes and can be proven to be a poor argument you just yell that it’s your opinion and can’t possibly be wrong
Yeah it is a decent sized gap and Cobb played a lot more games and had a lot more plate appearances.
WAR aside, it is a lot closer of a debate.
That is what makes his avg and hits and how many times he struck out more impressive with that many PA and GP he hit over .300 23 straight years, had over 200 hits 8 season over .400 avg 3 times.
Even with all of that, we have wRC+ to tell us that Ruth just mashing HR after HR was overall more productive.
I am not going to get into all of that, there is no point on which you do not understand what it means to be the best ALL AROUND player. Cobb was the best hitter ever, Ruth was one of the Best power Hitters of all time the best is debatable, COBB is the Best ALL AROUND player ever IMO.
wRC+ literally tells us that Ruth was the better offensive player, period. Sometimes contact and speed is better, sometimes power is better. In this case, we can clearly see that Ruth’s power made him the better offensive player as opposed to Cobb’s contact and speed.
wRC+ is why we’re able to compare David fletcher to Joey Gallo, and determine Gallo has been a much better offensive player this year, despite fletcher having a .291 average and Gallo having a .201 average.
The best player ever is not just hitting it overall , COBB was the BETTER player that is what I think you can think Ruth and that is ok.
Except the very best available metrics we have for both total overall value and offensive production say that Ruth was better.
We are not talking just offensively we are talking best ever player COBB was a better hitter than Ruth, was faster better baserunner there is more to baseball than hitting HR's. Cobb had the better arm. Cobb played the Outfield for 24 years. Was the leader in SB until 1985. I know SB does not mean anything now but it did back than. I do not need Metrics to tell me who the better hitter was or who was faster, better arm and in the field. COBB ALL AROUND was the better player.
I really can’t tell if you’re serious now or not.
wRC+ and fWAR take everything you’ve been saying into account, via one or the other.
wRC+ tells us Ruth was the better offensive player, fWAR tells us Ruth was also the better overall player. It’s really not that complicated.
You trying to tell me the metrics says Ruth was better Outfielder had a better arm and was better on the bases and had more speed. Realist you are using a formula to decide for you, I am using facts and what I have researched know about the two players. No way Ruth was a better hitter, Power yes hitter no. Speed not even close, arm no way, Fielding NO, Ruth played First as well as the outfield. COBB only played the OutField, I will take Cobb over Ruth. You can look at what ever formula and metrics you want. I will look at the stats. At the end day it all what you think based on the information and stats that we have.
That's a strawman. They don't have to say that and I don't think anyone is claiming that. They do take all those factors in determining the overall value. The best stats we have for determining that, say Ruth was better overall.
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@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarber600_MLBTS LOL now I know your trolling because Ruth was a better defender too, how does Cobb have a better arm when he has a lower defensive WAR and Ruth literally pitched earlier
So his pure offensive value (wRC+) is worse and his defense. Stop trolling
That is the problem with you, you only use these formula that were made up to try and calculate the value of players but the problem is the formulas were made according to the players form the Nineties on, The formulas do not calculate how the players were actually valued then. Stop with the all the formulas and go do some of your own research.
Incorrect, WAR was literally made to compare across eras
There it has been proven to be flawed.
WAR is not the end all be all
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Just a question:
What is the (main) goal of a hitter?(I'm excluding situational scenarios, ie. moving of runners, hitting behind runners, etc)
Isnt the main goal to get on base, and take as many bases as possible? Babe Ruth got on base more often than Cobb, and with more bases per at bat than Cobb.
Those are absolute facts. -
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
If it was 180 WAR to 175 maybe you’d have some credibly but it’s literally a huge gap and then when anybody tries to explain to you how your argument has holes and can be proven to be a poor argument you just yell that it’s your opinion and can’t possibly be wrong
Yeah it is a decent sized gap and Cobb played a lot more games and had a lot more plate appearances.
WAR aside, it is a lot closer of a debate.
That is what makes his avg and hits and how many times he struck out more impressive with that many PA and GP he hit over .300 23 straight years, had over 200 hits 8 season over .400 avg 3 times.
Even with all of that, we have wRC+ to tell us that Ruth just mashing HR after HR was overall more productive.
I am not going to get into all of that, there is no point on which you do not understand what it means to be the best ALL AROUND player. Cobb was the best hitter ever, Ruth was one of the Best power Hitters of all time the best is debatable, COBB is the Best ALL AROUND player ever IMO.
wRC+ literally tells us that Ruth was the better offensive player, period. Sometimes contact and speed is better, sometimes power is better. In this case, we can clearly see that Ruth’s power made him the better offensive player as opposed to Cobb’s contact and speed.
wRC+ is why we’re able to compare David fletcher to Joey Gallo, and determine Gallo has been a much better offensive player this year, despite fletcher having a .291 average and Gallo having a .201 average.
The best player ever is not just hitting it overall , COBB was the BETTER player that is what I think you can think Ruth and that is ok.
Except the very best available metrics we have for both total overall value and offensive production say that Ruth was better.
We are not talking just offensively we are talking best ever player COBB was a better hitter than Ruth, was faster better baserunner there is more to baseball than hitting HR's. Cobb had the better arm. Cobb played the Outfield for 24 years. Was the leader in SB until 1985. I know SB does not mean anything now but it did back than. I do not need Metrics to tell me who the better hitter was or who was faster, better arm and in the field. COBB ALL AROUND was the better player.
I really can’t tell if you’re serious now or not.
wRC+ and fWAR take everything you’ve been saying into account, via one or the other.
wRC+ tells us Ruth was the better offensive player, fWAR tells us Ruth was also the better overall player. It’s really not that complicated.
You trying to tell me the metrics says Ruth was better Outfielder had a better arm and was better on the bases and had more speed. Realist you are using a formula to decide for you, I am using facts and what I have researched know about the two players. No way Ruth was a better hitter, Power yes hitter no. Speed not even close, arm no way, Fielding NO, Ruth played First as well as the outfield. COBB only played the OutField, I will take Cobb over Ruth. You can look at what ever formula and metrics you want. I will look at the stats. At the end day it all what you think based on the information and stats that we have.
It’s really not that difficult to understand.
All the things you’ve mentioned are covered in wRC+ and fWAR. Using metrics (which are still stats) like fWAR tells us that Cobb’s speed, arm, defense, or whatever else you want to argue didn’t make him more valuable than Ruth. In fact, Cobb was actually the worse overall defender according to Fangraphs’ Def, with Cobb having -90.0 for his career, and Ruth having -18.6. If you look at Fielding Runs Above Average, which is the next best thing without advanced metrics, Cobb finished with exactly 0.0 for his career, while Ruth had 79.0. Ruth had 19.0 in 1923 while playing 148 games in the outfield, while Cobb’s best was 8.0 in 1910 while playing 137 games in the outfield.
Ruth was the better player, there’s no more arguments to be made.
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarber600_MLBTS wondering how many people are gonna have to prove you wrong before you stop responding, what are we at, 5?
Kinda sounds like you in the thread where you said you could hit a major league pitcher, huh?
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@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
If it was 180 WAR to 175 maybe you’d have some credibly but it’s literally a huge gap and then when anybody tries to explain to you how your argument has holes and can be proven to be a poor argument you just yell that it’s your opinion and can’t possibly be wrong
Yeah it is a decent sized gap and Cobb played a lot more games and had a lot more plate appearances.
WAR aside, it is a lot closer of a debate.
That is what makes his avg and hits and how many times he struck out more impressive with that many PA and GP he hit over .300 23 straight years, had over 200 hits 8 season over .400 avg 3 times.
Even with all of that, we have wRC+ to tell us that Ruth just mashing HR after HR was overall more productive.
I am not going to get into all of that, there is no point on which you do not understand what it means to be the best ALL AROUND player. Cobb was the best hitter ever, Ruth was one of the Best power Hitters of all time the best is debatable, COBB is the Best ALL AROUND player ever IMO.
wRC+ literally tells us that Ruth was the better offensive player, period. Sometimes contact and speed is better, sometimes power is better. In this case, we can clearly see that Ruth’s power made him the better offensive player as opposed to Cobb’s contact and speed.
wRC+ is why we’re able to compare David fletcher to Joey Gallo, and determine Gallo has been a much better offensive player this year, despite fletcher having a .291 average and Gallo having a .201 average.
The best player ever is not just hitting it overall , COBB was the BETTER player that is what I think you can think Ruth and that is ok.
Except the very best available metrics we have for both total overall value and offensive production say that Ruth was better.
We are not talking just offensively we are talking best ever player COBB was a better hitter than Ruth, was faster better baserunner there is more to baseball than hitting HR's. Cobb had the better arm. Cobb played the Outfield for 24 years. Was the leader in SB until 1985. I know SB does not mean anything now but it did back than. I do not need Metrics to tell me who the better hitter was or who was faster, better arm and in the field. COBB ALL AROUND was the better player.
I really can’t tell if you’re serious now or not.
wRC+ and fWAR take everything you’ve been saying into account, via one or the other.
wRC+ tells us Ruth was the better offensive player, fWAR tells us Ruth was also the better overall player. It’s really not that complicated.
You trying to tell me the metrics says Ruth was better Outfielder had a better arm and was better on the bases and had more speed. Realist you are using a formula to decide for you, I am using facts and what I have researched know about the two players. No way Ruth was a better hitter, Power yes hitter no. Speed not even close, arm no way, Fielding NO, Ruth played First as well as the outfield. COBB only played the OutField, I will take Cobb over Ruth. You can look at what ever formula and metrics you want. I will look at the stats. At the end day it all what you think based on the information and stats that we have.
That's a strawman. They don't have to say that and I don't think anyone is claiming that. They do take all those factors in determining the overall value. The best stats we have for determining that, say Ruth was better overall.
It is a man made formula that weight more in the favor of a power hitter and we know speed or SB is not valued like it was then, that has been said and proven that SB do not help teams win because the percentage of SB does not match what it should in RS or something along those lines that has to do with the HR in today's game where is in Cobb time SB and Speed was highly valued . Does that make since. I understand we have all these formulas not to calculate players from now to the pass but those formulas to not weight the type of players that were valued or looked at the way they are now. How much weight of value goes into each stat of the value of a player. Maybe I am wrong in some of this way of thinking but I do know 100 percent that the SB in today's game long with the SAC bunt hold very little value that is what the metric say but in those times that was not the case.
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@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
If it was 180 WAR to 175 maybe you’d have some credibly but it’s literally a huge gap and then when anybody tries to explain to you how your argument has holes and can be proven to be a poor argument you just yell that it’s your opinion and can’t possibly be wrong
Yeah it is a decent sized gap and Cobb played a lot more games and had a lot more plate appearances.
WAR aside, it is a lot closer of a debate.
That is what makes his avg and hits and how many times he struck out more impressive with that many PA and GP he hit over .300 23 straight years, had over 200 hits 8 season over .400 avg 3 times.
Even with all of that, we have wRC+ to tell us that Ruth just mashing HR after HR was overall more productive.
I am not going to get into all of that, there is no point on which you do not understand what it means to be the best ALL AROUND player. Cobb was the best hitter ever, Ruth was one of the Best power Hitters of all time the best is debatable, COBB is the Best ALL AROUND player ever IMO.
wRC+ literally tells us that Ruth was the better offensive player, period. Sometimes contact and speed is better, sometimes power is better. In this case, we can clearly see that Ruth’s power made him the better offensive player as opposed to Cobb’s contact and speed.
wRC+ is why we’re able to compare David fletcher to Joey Gallo, and determine Gallo has been a much better offensive player this year, despite fletcher having a .291 average and Gallo having a .201 average.
The best player ever is not just hitting it overall , COBB was the BETTER player that is what I think you can think Ruth and that is ok.
Except the very best available metrics we have for both total overall value and offensive production say that Ruth was better.
We are not talking just offensively we are talking best ever player COBB was a better hitter than Ruth, was faster better baserunner there is more to baseball than hitting HR's. Cobb had the better arm. Cobb played the Outfield for 24 years. Was the leader in SB until 1985. I know SB does not mean anything now but it did back than. I do not need Metrics to tell me who the better hitter was or who was faster, better arm and in the field. COBB ALL AROUND was the better player.
I really can’t tell if you’re serious now or not.
wRC+ and fWAR take everything you’ve been saying into account, via one or the other.
wRC+ tells us Ruth was the better offensive player, fWAR tells us Ruth was also the better overall player. It’s really not that complicated.
You trying to tell me the metrics says Ruth was better Outfielder had a better arm and was better on the bases and had more speed. Realist you are using a formula to decide for you, I am using facts and what I have researched know about the two players. No way Ruth was a better hitter, Power yes hitter no. Speed not even close, arm no way, Fielding NO, Ruth played First as well as the outfield. COBB only played the OutField, I will take Cobb over Ruth. You can look at what ever formula and metrics you want. I will look at the stats. At the end day it all what you think based on the information and stats that we have.
That's a strawman. They don't have to say that and I don't think anyone is claiming that. They do take all those factors in determining the overall value. The best stats we have for determining that, say Ruth was better overall.
It is a man made formula that weight more in the favor of a power hitter and we know speed or SB is not valued like it was then, that has been said and proven that SB do not help teams win because the percentage of SB does not match what it should in RS or something along those lines that has to do with the HR in today's game where is in Cobb time SB and Speed was highly valued . Does that make since. I understand we have all these formulas to calculate players from now to the past but those formulas do not weigh the type of players that were valued or looked at the way they are now. How much weight of value goes into each stat of the value of a player. Maybe I am wrong in some of this way of thinking but I do know 100 percent that the SB in today's game long with the SAC bunt hold very little value that is what the metric say but in those times that was not the case.
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Here is where I differ in thinking, I look at over all stats and value stats different, I do not buy much into all the different formula's that someone came up with to calculate how good a career or season someone had such as WAR, WAR has some value but I believe it to be flawed and it is not be all end all and either are the other formulas people use. I do my own research, I read about players, I look at the stats that are valued at the time the the players played, Cobb and Ruth Careers crossed Paths. Cobb played most of his career in the dead ball era, Ruth is the big reason we have the modern day era. It makes since the metrics would favor Ruth with the power numbers. The top 3 Hitters in WAR are Ruth, Bonds, and Mays. Then it goes Cobb and Aaron. Based off WAR Cobb is better than Aaron a lot of people think Aaron is the best ever and certainly above Cobb.
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@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Here is where I differ in thinking, I look at over all stats and value stats different, I do not buy much into all the different formula's that someone came up with to calculate how good a career or season someone had such as WAR, WAR has some value but I believe it to be flawed and it is not be all end all and either are the other formulas people use. I do my own research, I read about players, I look at the stats that are valued at the time the the players played, Cobb and Ruth Careers crossed Paths. Cobb played most of his career in the dead ball era, Ruth is the big reason we have the modern day era. It makes since the metrics would favor Ruth with the power numbers.
Oh thanks for clarifying that you differ in thinking from the mathematicians who study and find the best formulas. If the goal of batting is to get on base, Ruth was more successful.
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This thread needs to die already.
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Here is where I differ in thinking, I look at over all stats and value stats different, I do not buy much into all the different formula's that someone came up with to calculate how good a career or season someone had such as WAR, WAR has some value but I believe it to be flawed and it is not be all end all and either are the other formulas people use. I do my own research, I read about players, I look at the stats that are valued at the time the the players played, Cobb and Ruth Careers crossed Paths. Cobb played most of his career in the dead ball era, Ruth is the big reason we have the modern day era. It makes since the metrics would favor Ruth with the power numbers.
Oh thanks for clarifying that you differ in thinking from the mathematicians who study and find the best formulas. If the goal of batting is to get on base, Ruth was more successful.
Again not just about batting, I do not care about mathematicians who know nothing about the game or the history of the game and how to value players in the time which they played.
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@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Here is where I differ in thinking, I look at over all stats and value stats different, I do not buy much into all the different formula's that someone came up with to calculate how good a career or season someone had such as WAR, WAR has some value but I believe it to be flawed and it is not be all end all and either are the other formulas people use. I do my own research, I read about players, I look at the stats that are valued at the time the the players played, Cobb and Ruth Careers crossed Paths. Cobb played most of his career in the dead ball era, Ruth is the big reason we have the modern day era. It makes since the metrics would favor Ruth with the power numbers.
Oh thanks for clarifying that you differ in thinking from the mathematicians who study and find the best formulas. If the goal of batting is to get on base, Ruth was more successful.
Again not just about batting, I do not care about mathematicians who know nothing about the game or the history of the game and how to value players in the time which they played.
Not only is it untrue that they know nothing about the game, they know significantly more about it than you do
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@bob_loblaw1984 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
This thread needs to die already.
You are right, I am out.
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Out of rate stats, Cobb leads in batting average.
Ruth leads in OBP, OPS, SLG, OPS+, wRC+, (oWAR, dWAR)*
*WAR non rate
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@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
If it was 180 WAR to 175 maybe you’d have some credibly but it’s literally a huge gap and then when anybody tries to explain to you how your argument has holes and can be proven to be a poor argument you just yell that it’s your opinion and can’t possibly be wrong
Yeah it is a decent sized gap and Cobb played a lot more games and had a lot more plate appearances.
WAR aside, it is a lot closer of a debate.
That is what makes his avg and hits and how many times he struck out more impressive with that many PA and GP he hit over .300 23 straight years, had over 200 hits 8 season over .400 avg 3 times.
Even with all of that, we have wRC+ to tell us that Ruth just mashing HR after HR was overall more productive.
I am not going to get into all of that, there is no point on which you do not understand what it means to be the best ALL AROUND player. Cobb was the best hitter ever, Ruth was one of the Best power Hitters of all time the best is debatable, COBB is the Best ALL AROUND player ever IMO.
wRC+ literally tells us that Ruth was the better offensive player, period. Sometimes contact and speed is better, sometimes power is better. In this case, we can clearly see that Ruth’s power made him the better offensive player as opposed to Cobb’s contact and speed.
wRC+ is why we’re able to compare David fletcher to Joey Gallo, and determine Gallo has been a much better offensive player this year, despite fletcher having a .291 average and Gallo having a .201 average.
The best player ever is not just hitting it overall , COBB was the BETTER player that is what I think you can think Ruth and that is ok.
Except the very best available metrics we have for both total overall value and offensive production say that Ruth was better.
We are not talking just offensively we are talking best ever player COBB was a better hitter than Ruth, was faster better baserunner there is more to baseball than hitting HR's. Cobb had the better arm. Cobb played the Outfield for 24 years. Was the leader in SB until 1985. I know SB does not mean anything now but it did back than. I do not need Metrics to tell me who the better hitter was or who was faster, better arm and in the field. COBB ALL AROUND was the better player.
I really can’t tell if you’re serious now or not.
wRC+ and fWAR take everything you’ve been saying into account, via one or the other.
wRC+ tells us Ruth was the better offensive player, fWAR tells us Ruth was also the better overall player. It’s really not that complicated.
You trying to tell me the metrics says Ruth was better Outfielder had a better arm and was better on the bases and had more speed. Realist you are using a formula to decide for you, I am using facts and what I have researched know about the two players. No way Ruth was a better hitter, Power yes hitter no. Speed not even close, arm no way, Fielding NO, Ruth played First as well as the outfield. COBB only played the OutField, I will take Cobb over Ruth. You can look at what ever formula and metrics you want. I will look at the stats. At the end day it all what you think based on the information and stats that we have.
That's a strawman. They don't have to say that and I don't think anyone is claiming that. They do take all those factors in determining the overall value. The best stats we have for determining that, say Ruth was better overall.
It is a man made formula that weight more in the favor of a power hitter and we know speed or SB is not valued like it was then, that has been said and proven that SB do not help teams win because the percentage of SB does not match what it should in RS or something along those lines that has to do with the HR in today's game where is in Cobb time SB and Speed was highly valued . Does that make since. I understand we have all these formulas not to calculate players from now to the pass but those formulas to not weight the type of players that were valued or looked at the way they are now. How much weight of value goes into each stat of the value of a player. Maybe I am wrong in some of this way of thinking but I do know 100 percent that the SB in today's game long with the SAC bunt hold very little value that is what the metric say but in those times that was not the case.
There's a reason it's not valued anymore. Just because they were highly valued in his time, doesn't mean they should have been. The cost to getting caught stealing far outweighs the benefit of not getting caught. That's why players don't do it as much anymore. That being said, Cobb was very successful at stealing bases. You seem to be putting to much emphasis on a stat that analytics say is not an overall worthwhile risk to take, when the main goal of baseball is to score more runs than the other team.
