Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever"
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@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
do yourself a favor watch the games. No one is doing what Otani is doing. And if Otani can do this for a few years he’ll surpass Babe as the best two way player ever.
I’m not saying Otani is having a better season than Ruth ever had. I’m just saying Otani is having one of the greatest seasons of all time. And even if it’s 130th in WAR that’s pretty darn good. I’d argue that there’s a precedence here set by Otani being a great if not the greatest two way player the game has ever seen. That has implications far greater than stats.
Herein lies the problem. He's having a great season. His two way ability is an impressive feat. But what about his season screams "one of the greatest seasons of all time"? The metrics certainly don't back that up.
This has been my point. We can appreciate and celebrate the season Ohtani is having, without trying to make it into something it's not.
Exactly, I’m not taking shots at Ohtani, it’s simply not one of the best seasons ever
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@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
I'm sad I missed out on this Babe Ruth debate earlier. Some of the takes in here are laughable.
Babe Ruth completely revolutionized the game. To go from 138 career HRs to top the leaderboards to 714, entirely because of one players ability is insane. The previous record by Roger Connor stood for 14 years before Babe obliterated it. The year Ruth hit his last HR, Gehrig was second all time with 378. That should explain how much he stood out. He did this while averaging .342 for his career.
"He did it against plumbers/janitors"
Why couldn't anyone else even come close then? Why would it take nearly 40 years for another all time great to break the record?Some of you are fixated on what would happen if player X played right now after showing up in a time machine. This isnt about who's more athletic. It's about who is so far advanced beyond their contemporaries, that you cannot dispute their greatness. WAR measures this in ways that traditional statistics cannot.
Ohtani is a very good/great player, no doubt, but he isnt in Ruth's realm.
This is the correct take
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@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
do yourself a favor watch the games. No one is doing what Otani is doing. And if Otani can do this for a few years he’ll surpass Babe as the best two way player ever.
I’m not saying Otani is having a better season than Ruth ever had. I’m just saying Otani is having one of the greatest seasons of all time. And even if it’s 130th in WAR that’s pretty darn good. I’d argue that there’s a precedence here set by Otani being a great if not the greatest two way player the game has ever seen. That has implications far greater than stats.
That’s where your bias comes from, if you would’ve had the chance to watch Babe, this wouldn’t even be an argument. You just want the guy you got to see to be the greatest.
“Nobody has done what Ohtani has done”. Ohtani plays baseball, 130 guys have had better seasons.
No one has done what Otani has done. And in sports that’s what makes you great. Hence one of the greatest seasons ever. Which brings me to my initial call out of you comparing the best to the greatest. See how that works?
Nobody has done what he’s done and yet there’s just so many guys who are better.
Let me put it this way… Ohtani hasn’t even come close to what Babe has done.
Greatness can change the game. And maybe it’s all relative to ones own opinion, but I can look back and pinpoint exactly when the NBA changed. In comparison to the MLB. If... and yes it’s yet to be seen, but if, what Otani and what has done changes the game how is that not greatness? This would further emphasize the importance of this 2021 season. In 20 years maybe a majority of star players are two way guys.
This is yet to be proven, but in 20,30,40,50 years will we be looking back at Otani’s season this year. I’m very confident we will. Even more so if it’s never replicated. The impact of greatness takes time. Like a fine wine I think Otani’s season this year will resonate and become more impactful later down the line. Greatest or greatness doesn’t have to be stats. It can be an impact or a change. This is why I’ll circle back to my point. Best and greatest aren’t the same.
You're conflating greatness and importance.
Let’s not go off the rails. Greatness can have importance and in most cases does. Definitely not my point. Importance usually means there’s a need for something to happen. This doesn’t need to happen. It just happens to be that it is.
My point was that just because something is important doesn't mean it's the greatest, as in one of the greatest seasons ever.
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@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
do yourself a favor watch the games. No one is doing what Otani is doing. And if Otani can do this for a few years he’ll surpass Babe as the best two way player ever.
I’m not saying Otani is having a better season than Ruth ever had. I’m just saying Otani is having one of the greatest seasons of all time. And even if it’s 130th in WAR that’s pretty darn good. I’d argue that there’s a precedence here set by Otani being a great if not the greatest two way player the game has ever seen. That has implications far greater than stats.
That’s where your bias comes from, if you would’ve had the chance to watch Babe, this wouldn’t even be an argument. You just want the guy you got to see to be the greatest.
“Nobody has done what Ohtani has done”. Ohtani plays baseball, 130 guys have had better seasons.
No one has done what Otani has done. And in sports that’s what makes you great. Hence one of the greatest seasons ever. Which brings me to my initial call out of you comparing the best to the greatest. See how that works?
Saying Otani is having one of the greatest season ever because he is pitching and hitting because no one else does it. He is not the best player on the Angels, HR and RBI are the only numbers that stand out as a hitter, he is hitting below .270 not so great, his era 3.00, before the season is over he will probably strike out over 200 times not so great. The not so great is IMO. Is he having a great season because of the HR and RBI sure, that will probably win him the MVP, IMO he is not having one of the greatest season of all time, I do not even think it is close, IF his ERA was in the low 2's and he was hitting around .300 that would be elite but he is not. He is better than avg pitcher and a avg hitter with great power. If Ohtani was playing in the 1920's his career would not have lasted a year due to injuries. Ruth would still be good in today game with the equipment they use now, Maybe not the greatest but he would still be good because he would have been brought up in today's game. Ruth changed the Power game. IMO Ty Cobb is the greatest player of all time.
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@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
do yourself a favor watch the games. No one is doing what Otani is doing. And if Otani can do this for a few years he’ll surpass Babe as the best two way player ever.
I’m not saying Otani is having a better season than Ruth ever had. I’m just saying Otani is having one of the greatest seasons of all time. And even if it’s 130th in WAR that’s pretty darn good. I’d argue that there’s a precedence here set by Otani being a great if not the greatest two way player the game has ever seen. That has implications far greater than stats.
That’s where your bias comes from, if you would’ve had the chance to watch Babe, this wouldn’t even be an argument. You just want the guy you got to see to be the greatest.
“Nobody has done what Ohtani has done”. Ohtani plays baseball, 130 guys have had better seasons.
No one has done what Otani has done. And in sports that’s what makes you great. Hence one of the greatest seasons ever. Which brings me to my initial call out of you comparing the best to the greatest. See how that works?
Saying Otani is having one of the greatest season ever because he is pitching and hitting because no one else does it. He is not the best player on the Angels, HR and RBI are the only numbers that stand out as a hitter, he is hitting below .270 not so great, his era 3.00, before the season is over he will probably strike out over 200 times not so great. The not so great is IMO. Is he having a great season because of the HR and RBI sure, that will probably win him the MVP, IMO he is not having one of the greatest season of all time, I do not even think it is close, IF his ERA was in the low 2's and he was hitting around .300 that would be elite but he is not. He is better than avg pitcher and a avg hitter with great power. If Ohtani was playing in the 1920's his career would not have lasted a year due to injuries. Ruth would still be good in today game with the equipment they use now, Maybe not the greatest but he would still be good because he would have been brought up in today's game. Ruth changed the Power game. IMO Ty Cobb is the greatest player of all time.
Good until the last sentence
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Ichiro has had the greatest season ever as a player from Japan and or Asia his 2001 rookie year and 2004. Matsui 2005, Nomo rookie year 1995 and 1996 were great as well.
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@quinnymcquinn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
do yourself a favor watch the games. No one is doing what Otani is doing. And if Otani can do this for a few years he’ll surpass Babe as the best two way player ever.
I’m not saying Otani is having a better season than Ruth ever had. I’m just saying Otani is having one of the greatest seasons of all time. And even if it’s 130th in WAR that’s pretty darn good. I’d argue that there’s a precedence here set by Otani being a great if not the greatest two way player the game has ever seen. That has implications far greater than stats.
That’s where your bias comes from, if you would’ve had the chance to watch Babe, this wouldn’t even be an argument. You just want the guy you got to see to be the greatest.
“Nobody has done what Ohtani has done”. Ohtani plays baseball, 130 guys have had better seasons.
No one has done what Otani has done. And in sports that’s what makes you great. Hence one of the greatest seasons ever. Which brings me to my initial call out of you comparing the best to the greatest. See how that works?
Saying Otani is having one of the greatest season ever because he is pitching and hitting because no one else does it. He is not the best player on the Angels, HR and RBI are the only numbers that stand out as a hitter, he is hitting below .270 not so great, his era 3.00, before the season is over he will probably strike out over 200 times not so great. The not so great is IMO. Is he having a great season because of the HR and RBI sure, that will probably win him the MVP, IMO he is not having one of the greatest season of all time, I do not even think it is close, IF his ERA was in the low 2's and he was hitting around .300 that would be elite but he is not. He is better than avg pitcher and a avg hitter with great power. If Ohtani was playing in the 1920's his career would not have lasted a year due to injuries. Ruth would still be good in today game with the equipment they use now, Maybe not the greatest but he would still be good because he would have been brought up in today's game. Ruth changed the Power game. IMO Ty Cobb is the greatest player of all time.
Good until the last sentence
I am a dodger fan, Everyone has there opinion
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Ohtani is not facing great pitching in the AL especially in the west.
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@chuckclc_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lets not pretend WAR is the end all be all of evaluating a player. How well did Babe pitch in those seasons? Babe definitely has the most impressive hitting numbers of all time, but when you add in Pitching and Speed it does become a legit argument between the 2.
Plus of course the obvious 100 hundred year difference in athletic era. Apples and Oranges.
Between hitting, pitching and speed.
Babe was miles better hitting, miles better pitching, and slightly worse if that in speed.This is so bad
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To say Ruth hit off bad pitching is incorrect, The pitching back then was better than it is today. Team ERA in 1920 only 5 teams were over 4 and 1 team over 5. 5 teams under 3 the best team ERA in 1920 was 2.32. Some of the teams only played 50 plus games, Games played varied 16 teams played 154 or 155. The other 6 were from 60-124 Games played. If Ruth was hitting of Janitors that is some pretty good Janitors he was hitting off of. Why was Ruth the only one hitting with power if the pitching was so bad. That is without all the knowledge the pitchers have today.
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Othani is a good player. He isn’t even close to the best player on his team.
Trout
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@johnutah312_xbl said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Othani is a good player. He isn’t even close to the best player on his team.
Trout
To be fair trout is still miles behind Ruth
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@johnutah312_xbl said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Othani is a good player. He isn’t even close to the best player on his team.
Trout
To be fair trout is still miles behind Ruth
How would you know? One you never saw, and the other if he’s not playing the NYY you probably never saw either. Going by your Jeter comments, any and all arguments about baseball you make are invalid. Not to mention your ability to hit MLB pitching…
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@yankblan_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@johnutah312_xbl said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Othani is a good player. He isn’t even close to the best player on his team.
Trout
To be fair trout is still miles behind Ruth
How would you know? One you never saw, and the other if he’s not playing the NYY you probably never saw either. Going by your Jeter comments, any and all arguments about baseball you make are invalid. Not to mention your ability to hit MLB pitching…
How would I know? Because I can read stats
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Kieran still out here baiting people
Oh he's so mature, he's going to college now! So you know he's all grown up and mature being a college freshman. Still out here baiting, same old Kieran.
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@yankblan_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@johnutah312_xbl said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Othani is a good player. He isn’t even close to the best player on his team.
Trout
To be fair trout is still miles behind Ruth
How would you know? One you never saw, and the other if he’s not playing the NYY you probably never saw either. Going by your Jeter comments, any and all arguments about baseball you make are invalid. Not to mention your ability to hit MLB pitching…
How would I know? Because I can read stats
And like so many have pointed to you, to no avail because you’re an all time stubborn know-it-all still wet behind the ears, the stat comparisons are flawed.
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@raesone_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Kieran still out here baiting people
Oh he's so mature, he's going to college now! So you know he's all grown up and mature being a college freshman. Still out here baiting, same old Kieran.
I took the bait earlier this year. It’s truly insufferable now.
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I mentioned it in another thread, but Ruth is 16th all time in H/9 as a pitcher. He is also 17th in career ERA, 16th in W/L%, 13th in HR/9 allowed, and is top 100 career in many pitching stats. He had a pitching WAR of 8.8 in a season. So many of you seem to think like "oh yeah, he also pitched some. That's cute". He was the best LHP in baseball for a 2-3 year stretch. You all completely downplay his abilities as a pitcher.
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@raesone_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Kieran still out here baiting people
Oh he's so mature, he's going to college now! So you know he's all grown up and mature being a college freshman. Still out here baiting, same old Kieran.
It’s not bait it’s stats buddy
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It doesn’t matter because the OP is making comparisons where comparisons can’t be made. Ruth came up during the dead ball era and Ohtani plays in the modern era. You cannot make a comparison between the two. So anything that is said can only be subjective. The OP’s opinion is that Ohtani is not having one of the greatest seasons ever. That’s all it is, an opinion. Please stop acting as if it’s not an opinion because it is. There is no factual basis to make the argument that he’s not having one of the greatest seasons ever because your stats are being pulled from different eras of baseball history.
