Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing
-
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@the_dragon1912 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@RonnieGant1992 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
The title is pretty self-explanatory. If you could choose 5 more signature series cards (that SDS has the rights to) to still arrive before we move onto MLB 20, which ones would you choose?
For myself, the list would the following:
Orel Hershiser
- Realistically speaking, even if he did get a SS card they wouldn't be able to boost his /9's much (career best WHIP 1.052 and K/9 6.5) unless they totally abandon reality, but we could still expect some increases to his 92 version even with respect /9's. We might also see a bit of a boost to his fastball velocity, break and stamina.
Brett Saberhagen
-
Statistically speaking - and also accolades-wise - Saberhagen had a significantly better career than Hershiser (also compared to most other pitchers). His '89 season was actually very good with a WHIP of 0.961 and a FIP of 2.45 - his K/9 that year wasn't anything insane (6.6) but he got it up to 7.5 at his best.
-
We could expect to see a quite a high H/9 stat and quite a bit lower K/9 stat with great control. In his early years he could also throw quite hard so we could expect his fastball to reach 97 mph (especially given how SS cards have been boosted).
Goose Gossage
- This would be close to what his immortal card was last year - nearly perfect P/9's and better control than his 95 version.
Andruw Jones
- This is a highly anticipated card (also by me), but realistically speaking he probably wouldn't make into any other teams than theme lineups at this point (his contact and vision would simply be too low). This is probably why SDS added his 91 card so early as it actually gave a nice window to use his card when there wasn't that many better options out there.
Rob Dibble
- This is just a personal favorite of mine - we could expect small increases into his /9's, but I suppose for him to be included into most people's lineups SDS would have to give him a change-up (after which he would be an absolute beast).
As soon as you said realistically speaking you lost touch with the SS ratings of this game. These stats have been crazy unrealistic.
Joe Carter was a 30-30 guy in his prime he needs a better card that is useable.
Joe Carter had a .259 career batting average and a career .779 OPS...with a 105+ OPS. If not for the Game 6 World Series winning Home Run in 1993 vs the Philles he wouldnt even deserve a card.
My response to that is
Alex Gordon
Bill Mazoroski
Jason Kendall
Steve Finley
Rick AnkielI think Joe Carter is good enough
Ankiel is literally the only one on your list that is worse than Joe Carter
Plus Ankiel really shouldn’t be counted anyways. He got one as a novelty, a pitcher with good hitting and pitching attributes. Not because of his career accomplishments.
So in addition to Ben Zobrist you think Alex Gordon is better than Carter. Ok cool story. What did Carter ever do to you. Your Carter bias is as weird as it is unfonded
Out of curiosity, other than career longevity and sentiment - how is Carter's career objectively better than Gordon's?
Carter's career WAR over 16 years of playing is 19.6.
Gordon's career WAR over 13 years of playing is almost twice as high at 36.6.
Gordon also had the better peak when it comes to WAR.
-
Carter .259
Hordon .258Carter 396 homers
Gordon 186 homerCarter 1445 RBI
Gordon 700 RBICarter 5x Allstatr
Gordon 3x all StarCarter 4 top 10 MVP finishes
Gordon 0 top 10 MVP finishesShould I keep going. Carter was am excellent player
-
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
Carter .259
Hordon .258Carter 396 homers
Gordon 186 homerCarter 1445 RBI
Gordon 700 RBICarter 5x Allstatr
Gordon 3x all StarCarter 4 top 10 MVP finishes
Gordon 0 top 10 MVP finishesShould I keep going. Carter was am excellent player
None of those address the other half of the game that is defense. Gordon is literally twice as valuable for his teams.
-
I don’t really even have a great sentimental attachment to the dude. I also don’t think WAR is a great stat.i just think joe Carter is a good player worthy of a SS and better than a bunch of guys who got a card
-
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
Carter .259
Hordon .258Carter 396 homers
Gordon 186 homerCarter 1445 RBI
Gordon 700 RBICarter 5x Allstatr
Gordon 3x all StarCarter 4 top 10 MVP finishes
Gordon 0 top 10 MVP finishesShould I keep going. Carter was am excellent player
None of those address the other half of the game that is defense. Gordon is literally twice as valuable for his teams.
I left out a lot. Carter was a better base runner. Carters defense was not terrible it was average. The gap in defense between the two is waaaaay smaller than the gap in offense. Keep in mind that Gordon was a defensive gem in the LEAST important defensive position.
-
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
Carter .259
Hordon .258Carter 396 homers
Gordon 186 homerCarter 1445 RBI
Gordon 700 RBICarter 5x Allstatr
Gordon 3x all StarCarter 4 top 10 MVP finishes
Gordon 0 top 10 MVP finishesShould I keep going. Carter was am excellent player
None of those address the other half of the game that is defense. Gordon is literally twice as valuable for his teams.
This guy really just tried to use RBI, All-Star appearances, and MVP placement to justify one player having the better career over another lmao. The carter bias is most definitely on him, not us. Any reasonable person could see that carter was nothing more than average, with his peak being slightly above average.
-
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
I don’t really even have a great sentimental attachment to the dude. I also don’t think WAR is a great stat.i just think joe Carter is a good player worthy of a SS and better than a bunch of guys who got a card
It is the best stat in baseball when it comes to comparing players (especially playing largely the same positions) because it captures both offense and defense.
-
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
Carter .259
Hordon .258Carter 396 homers
Gordon 186 homerCarter 1445 RBI
Gordon 700 RBICarter 5x Allstatr
Gordon 3x all StarCarter 4 top 10 MVP finishes
Gordon 0 top 10 MVP finishesShould I keep going. Carter was am excellent player
None of those address the other half of the game that is defense. Gordon is literally twice as valuable for his teams.
I left out a lot. Carter was a better base runner. Carters defense was not terrible it was average. The gap in defense between the two is waaaaay smaller than the gap in offense. Keep in mind that Gordon was a defensive gem in the LEAST important defensive position.
It's just not true. If that was true, Gordon wouldn't have WAR twice as high as Carter.
-
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
Carter .259
Hordon .258Carter 396 homers
Gordon 186 homerCarter 1445 RBI
Gordon 700 RBICarter 5x Allstatr
Gordon 3x all StarCarter 4 top 10 MVP finishes
Gordon 0 top 10 MVP finishesShould I keep going. Carter was am excellent player
None of those address the other half of the game that is defense. Gordon is literally twice as valuable for his teams.
This guy really just tried to use RBI, All-Star appearances, and MVP placement to justify one player having the better career over another lmao. The carter bias is most definitely on him, not us.
Yes me and the hall of fame do it all the time. You ONLy have a flawed WAR stat I gave you a bunch of stats. Listen we may just disagree. If WAR is you only basis, then you will be correct at least in your mind and all of those who are ignorant about the stat
I have sen them both play and this really isn’t a close argument for me...but carry on if you want
-
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
Carter .259
Hordon .258Carter 396 homers
Gordon 186 homerCarter 1445 RBI
Gordon 700 RBICarter 5x Allstatr
Gordon 3x all StarCarter 4 top 10 MVP finishes
Gordon 0 top 10 MVP finishesShould I keep going. Carter was am excellent player
None of those address the other half of the game that is defense. Gordon is literally twice as valuable for his teams.
This guy really just tried to use RBI, All-Star appearances, and MVP placement to justify one player having the better career over another lmao. The carter bias is most definitely on him, not us.
Yes me and the hall of fame do it all the time. You ONLy have a flawed WAR stat I gave you a bunch of stats. Listen we may just disagree. If WAR is you only basis, then you will be correct at least in your mind and all of those who are ignorant about the stat
I have sen them both play and this really isn’t a close argument for me...but carry on if you want
Look at my link before you call WAR a flawed stat...
Meanwhile you refer to all star appearances and rbis as some sort of an objective metric.
-
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
Carter .259
Hordon .258Carter 396 homers
Gordon 186 homerCarter 1445 RBI
Gordon 700 RBICarter 5x Allstatr
Gordon 3x all StarCarter 4 top 10 MVP finishes
Gordon 0 top 10 MVP finishesShould I keep going. Carter was am excellent player
None of those address the other half of the game that is defense. Gordon is literally twice as valuable for his teams.
I left out a lot. Carter was a better base runner. Carters defense was not terrible it was average. The gap in defense between the two is waaaaay smaller than the gap in offense. Keep in mind that Gordon was a defensive gem in the LEAST important defensive position.
It's just not true. If that was true, Gordon wouldn't have WAR twice as high as Carter.
Fact is Carter is better at almost every offensive stat other than WAR. So I am not going to argue.
But bottom line is that he is worthy of a SS the standard ain’t that high
-
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
Carter .259
Hordon .258Carter 396 homers
Gordon 186 homerCarter 1445 RBI
Gordon 700 RBICarter 5x Allstatr
Gordon 3x all StarCarter 4 top 10 MVP finishes
Gordon 0 top 10 MVP finishesShould I keep going. Carter was am excellent player
None of those address the other half of the game that is defense. Gordon is literally twice as valuable for his teams.
This guy really just tried to use RBI, All-Star appearances, and MVP placement to justify one player having the better career over another lmao. The carter bias is most definitely on him, not us.
Yes me and the hall of fame do it all the time. You ONLy have a flawed WAR stat I gave you a bunch of stats. Listen we may just disagree. If WAR is you only basis, then you will be correct at least in your mind and all of those who are ignorant about the stat
I have sen them both play and this really isn’t a close argument for me...but carry on if you want
Look at my link before you call WAR a flawed stat...
Meanwhile you refer to all stat appearances and rbis as some sort of an objective metric.
I hope you have the patience of a saint, because he will never comprehend that he’s wrong on this topic.
-
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
Carter .259
Hordon .258Carter 396 homers
Gordon 186 homerCarter 1445 RBI
Gordon 700 RBICarter 5x Allstatr
Gordon 3x all StarCarter 4 top 10 MVP finishes
Gordon 0 top 10 MVP finishesShould I keep going. Carter was am excellent player
None of those address the other half of the game that is defense. Gordon is literally twice as valuable for his teams.
This guy really just tried to use RBI, All-Star appearances, and MVP placement to justify one player having the better career over another lmao. The carter bias is most definitely on him, not us.
Yes me and the hall of fame do it all the time. You ONLy have a flawed WAR stat I gave you a bunch of stats. Listen we may just disagree. If WAR is you only basis, then you will be correct at least in your mind and all of those who are ignorant about the stat
I have sen them both play and this really isn’t a close argument for me...but carry on if you want
Look at my link before you call WAR a flawed stat...
Meanwhile you refer to all stat appearances and rbis as some sort of an objective metric.
I hope you have the patience of a saint, because he will never comprehend that he’s wrong on this topic.
Nah I've made my case. I'll leave it for the other forum members to decide, who was the better player.
-
So, going by fWAR the only outfielder that Joe Carter was better than that has a Signature Series card is Dante Bichette. And Bichette only has a card because the Rockies had basically nobody else this year.
-
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
So, going by fWAR the only outfielder that Joe Carter was better than that has a Signature Series card is Dante Bichette. And Bichette only has a card because the Rockies had basically nobody else this year.
Your entire argument that Gordon is better is based on WAR. By ALL other metrics Carter is better. From a pure statistical analysis standpoint it is bad practice to have any argument hinge on one stat. You should triangulate your sources.
But to your larger argument about if carter is deserving you already pointed out that Ankiel and Bichette are lesser players. Steve Finley imo is ALSO a lesser player but his career WAR is higher so I know where you stand.
You look at WAR and say that is proof that Carter is inferior without looking at anything else
I look at Carters WAR and after watching him play and looking at other stats I say Carter is evidence that WAR is imperfect at best.
Unless your Carter regiment is about something other than WAR there is no pint because we have already had the WAR conversation we have different viewpoints and it got ugly last time so no point in continuing unless you have new info about WAR or other stats to show Carter isn’t deserving.
-
I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant.
-
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant.
Okay, one last time.
WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player.
None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense.
Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant.
-
I'm a lifelong Jays fan that watched every Jays game I could from 1989 to now. I watched Joe Carter his entire career and I can tell you, he is very overrated.
He has a career 105 OPS+, as evidenced by his brutal .306 lifetime OBP. That is terrible. He was also slightly below average defensively and his baserunning was good but not even remotely game changing.
You could stick anyone hitting 4th in Toronto between 1991-1995 and they would collect over 100 RBI. He benifitted from hitting in stacked lineups his whole career. But he was always the weak link in the middle of those orders.
All of this any baseball expert knows. But the uneducated fan who reads the back of baseball cards think he was near HOF worthy. He was not. His homerun in 1993 is. And his final out in 1992.
Other than that, Joltin' Joe had huge flaws that hurt teams sometimes more than they helped. He swung at everything... -
@SefarR said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
@Maverick31762 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
I will also add that all star appearances, RBI, homers, OPS, steals, MVP voting are ALL flawed. However, I am not depending on one stat to make or break my case. When Carter is better in 90% of stats and watching th em both in action one was better. Plus in terms of baseball history he is more relevant.
Okay, one last time.
WAR is a comprehensive stat that takes into consideration offense and defense and calculates how valuable you are compared to a replacement level player.
None of your offensive stats take into consideration defense.
Overall Gordon was the better player and to argue otherwise is simply ignorant.
WAR is a flawed stat. Even the founder of it Will James will admit as much. It’s goal is to be comprehend it it is not for more reasons than I can state. Google flaw in WAR stat or if you have a good understanding of statistics (not baseball stats) but actual statistics find out how WAR is made and the underlying assumptions and behind the math decisions you can poke holes throughout.
Alex Gordon played LF literally the position with the least defensive relevance. Stop acting like he was a SS he was actually a bad 3B with a good arm converted to LF. Dude had maybe 3 high quality above average seasons. If you can point to more please tell me. MOST of his seasons were garbage in a garbage team
To say that anyone could put up his Toronto numbers well he was the 4 hitter on. Steam with 2 HOF. Alomar and aging Winfeild. Are saying he is a product of Grubrr and Olerud. Also he was putting up the same number in Cleveland Yes he swing at everything and didn’t hit for a high average. He also stole bases and didn’t K a lot for a power hitter. I am not saying he was the greatest ever. Saying he was very good and better than Gordon.
Man after had a 9 season stretch of 30 homers 100 RBI and like 20 steals. Gordon wished he had one season like that. -
@Nanthrax_1 said in Your 5 most wanted SS cards still missing:
I'm a lifelong Jays fan that watched every Jays game I could from 1989 to now. I watched Joe Carter his entire career and I can tell you, he is very overrated.
He has a career 105 OPS+, as evidenced by his brutal .306 lifetime OBP. That is terrible. He was also slightly below average defensively and his baserunning was good but not even remotely game changing.
You could stick anyone hitting 4th in Toronto between 1991-1995 and they would collect over 100 RBI. He benifitted from hitting in stacked lineups his whole career. But he was always the weak link in the middle of those orders.
All of this any baseball expert knows. But the uneducated fan who reads the back of baseball cards think he was near HOF worthy. He was not. His homerun in 1993 is. And his final out in 1992.
Other than that, Joltin' Joe had huge flaws that hurt teams sometimes more than they helped. He swung at everything...well said and lets just all continue to love Carter for the champ 125 clutch that he was back then....
on another note, no one is talking about giving ROY HALLIDAY a SS - he is deffffffffff worthy
