The Cleveland Baseball Team....
-
@Kovz88 said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@writetoshawn said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
So many white people crying about the name change. Just call them the Cleveland Crackers ( or anything offensive referring to white people ) and let’s move on.
Cleveland Whities
Cleveland Gringos
Cleveland White Boys
Cleveland Proud Boys
Cleveland Ku K.... you get the pointAs a white person am I supposed to be offended by all of these? The first 3 aren't remotely offensive to me. I claim ignorance on the Proud Boys and I want zero association with the 5th, hopefully that was assumed.
Two things in this thread that appears to flew over your head .
First, it’s a slippery slope when you start using names to describe a complete ethnicity. Where does it stop?
Second, native Americans are not Indians ( which has been stated in this thread by others ). So to use a symbol of a Native American and then call your team Indians is hugely ignorant. Anyone who believes it’s ok to keep the name is wholly uneducated and tbh, an embarrassment to their ethnicity.
No these 2 things haven't "flew" over my head. Maybe you misread something. Me not being offended by those 3 words above is just my opinion and I recognize that opinion means nothing. I am well aware that there are plenty of others that may be offended by them. I agree that it is a slippery slope but thanks for assuming that I didn't.
I am well aware that Native Americans and people from India (Indians) are not the same thing. It doesn't bother me one bit that Cleveland is changing its nickname. If that organization and actual Native Americans want that change then by all means go for it!! As I have pointed out several times in this thread I don't agree with people telling others what they should think, how they should think, or what they should or shouldn't be offended by. Perfect example is your response above. Assumptions aren't good for anyone.
It is cumulative of your posts in this thread is what I was attacking. There is no grey area , the point is that just because you are not offended doesn’t make it ok. There is a right side of history and a wrong side.
Name needs to be changed , period. No excuse, no buts, no what if’s. It was wrong then and it’s wrong now. Only thing that has changed is minorities have a lot more power than they had before ( which wasn’t much at all )
As a historian I'd like to point out that history is history. It is skewed at times, but in the end, it is still history. There is no wrong or right side of facts imo.
Were you aiming for ambiguity here? There were 3 sentences written and I can’t identify one assertion made. No salt; just an observation.
Kind of? I just think the phrase "right side of history" is inaccurate. There is historical accuracy and adhering to facts, yes, but there is no right or wrong side of it to be on. History is as it is written, whether you like it or not, is what I'm trying to say.
I've heard the phrase thrown around a lot. To say one is on the wrong side of history is to say "I'm right, you're backward and wrong, so get with the program." Which is kind of rude when it's used against someone else's opinion.
Let me know if I need to clarify further.
Interesting interpretation of the phrase but accurate. Personally when I hear that phrase I don't think factually right, I think morally. Example: Nazis are on the wrong side of history because they were objectively the bad guys to anyone but them. Again, that is just how I interpret the phrase, nothing wrong with your interpretation I was just trying to offer a different use in case that was how people here were using it.
I understand your viewpoint on the phrase. My thoughts on it are as follows: History and the passage of time doesn't really have a moral compass—if it did, notoriously bad things that occurred in the past wouldn't have happened, and vise-versa. That's why I feel the term "right side of history" is misleading in a sense. A person can believe that they're on the "right side" because they believe they're doing "the right thing" but could in fact be doing bad stuff.
Is what I'm saying making sense? I had some wine this evening and want to check.
-
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@Kovz88 said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@writetoshawn said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
So many white people crying about the name change. Just call them the Cleveland Crackers ( or anything offensive referring to white people ) and let’s move on.
Cleveland Whities
Cleveland Gringos
Cleveland White Boys
Cleveland Proud Boys
Cleveland Ku K.... you get the pointAs a white person am I supposed to be offended by all of these? The first 3 aren't remotely offensive to me. I claim ignorance on the Proud Boys and I want zero association with the 5th, hopefully that was assumed.
Two things in this thread that appears to flew over your head .
First, it’s a slippery slope when you start using names to describe a complete ethnicity. Where does it stop?
Second, native Americans are not Indians ( which has been stated in this thread by others ). So to use a symbol of a Native American and then call your team Indians is hugely ignorant. Anyone who believes it’s ok to keep the name is wholly uneducated and tbh, an embarrassment to their ethnicity.
No these 2 things haven't "flew" over my head. Maybe you misread something. Me not being offended by those 3 words above is just my opinion and I recognize that opinion means nothing. I am well aware that there are plenty of others that may be offended by them. I agree that it is a slippery slope but thanks for assuming that I didn't.
I am well aware that Native Americans and people from India (Indians) are not the same thing. It doesn't bother me one bit that Cleveland is changing its nickname. If that organization and actual Native Americans want that change then by all means go for it!! As I have pointed out several times in this thread I don't agree with people telling others what they should think, how they should think, or what they should or shouldn't be offended by. Perfect example is your response above. Assumptions aren't good for anyone.
It is cumulative of your posts in this thread is what I was attacking. There is no grey area , the point is that just because you are not offended doesn’t make it ok. There is a right side of history and a wrong side.
Name needs to be changed , period. No excuse, no buts, no what if’s. It was wrong then and it’s wrong now. Only thing that has changed is minorities have a lot more power than they had before ( which wasn’t much at all )
As a historian I'd like to point out that history is history. It is skewed at times, but in the end, it is still history. There is no wrong or right side of facts imo.
Were you aiming for ambiguity here? There were 3 sentences written and I can’t identify one assertion made. No salt; just an observation.
Kind of? I just think the phrase "right side of history" is inaccurate. There is historical accuracy and adhering to facts, yes, but there is no right or wrong side of it to be on. History is as it is written, whether you like it or not, is what I'm trying to say.
I've heard the phrase thrown around a lot. To say one is on the wrong side of history is to say "I'm right, you're backward and wrong, so get with the program." Which is kind of rude when it's used against someone else's opinion.
Let me know if I need to clarify further.
Interesting interpretation of the phrase but accurate. Personally when I hear that phrase I don't think factually right, I think morally. Example: Nazis are on the wrong side of history because they were objectively the bad guys to anyone but them. Again, that is just how I interpret the phrase, nothing wrong with your interpretation I was just trying to offer a different use in case that was how people here were using it.
A saying or phrase can take on different meanings and usage through out the years. A historian I would think would know that . Holocaust happened , that is history. People who fought against it , would be on “the right side of history “. The nazi , yeah , you get the point .
There is a literal interpretation of a word or saying or phrase and there is a implied meaning.
Nice try though Mr Historian. You can keep on the Nazi side ( good people in both sides ring a bell ). I’ll stick to the right side and against oppression and the exploitation of people .
Quoted one person but this is really towards The Doctors Wife
I'm a woman, thank you very much. So "Ms. Historian".
-
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@Kovz88 said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@writetoshawn said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
So many white people crying about the name change. Just call them the Cleveland Crackers ( or anything offensive referring to white people ) and let’s move on.
Cleveland Whities
Cleveland Gringos
Cleveland White Boys
Cleveland Proud Boys
Cleveland Ku K.... you get the pointAs a white person am I supposed to be offended by all of these? The first 3 aren't remotely offensive to me. I claim ignorance on the Proud Boys and I want zero association with the 5th, hopefully that was assumed.
Two things in this thread that appears to flew over your head .
First, it’s a slippery slope when you start using names to describe a complete ethnicity. Where does it stop?
Second, native Americans are not Indians ( which has been stated in this thread by others ). So to use a symbol of a Native American and then call your team Indians is hugely ignorant. Anyone who believes it’s ok to keep the name is wholly uneducated and tbh, an embarrassment to their ethnicity.
No these 2 things haven't "flew" over my head. Maybe you misread something. Me not being offended by those 3 words above is just my opinion and I recognize that opinion means nothing. I am well aware that there are plenty of others that may be offended by them. I agree that it is a slippery slope but thanks for assuming that I didn't.
I am well aware that Native Americans and people from India (Indians) are not the same thing. It doesn't bother me one bit that Cleveland is changing its nickname. If that organization and actual Native Americans want that change then by all means go for it!! As I have pointed out several times in this thread I don't agree with people telling others what they should think, how they should think, or what they should or shouldn't be offended by. Perfect example is your response above. Assumptions aren't good for anyone.
It is cumulative of your posts in this thread is what I was attacking. There is no grey area , the point is that just because you are not offended doesn’t make it ok. There is a right side of history and a wrong side.
Name needs to be changed , period. No excuse, no buts, no what if’s. It was wrong then and it’s wrong now. Only thing that has changed is minorities have a lot more power than they had before ( which wasn’t much at all )
As a historian I'd like to point out that history is history. It is skewed at times, but in the end, it is still history. There is no wrong or right side of facts imo.
Were you aiming for ambiguity here? There were 3 sentences written and I can’t identify one assertion made. No salt; just an observation.
Kind of? I just think the phrase "right side of history" is inaccurate. There is historical accuracy and adhering to facts, yes, but there is no right or wrong side of it to be on. History is as it is written, whether you like it or not, is what I'm trying to say.
I've heard the phrase thrown around a lot. To say one is on the wrong side of history is to say "I'm right, you're backward and wrong, so get with the program." Which is kind of rude when it's used against someone else's opinion.
Let me know if I need to clarify further.
Interesting interpretation of the phrase but accurate. Personally when I hear that phrase I don't think factually right, I think morally. Example: Nazis are on the wrong side of history because they were objectively the bad guys to anyone but them. Again, that is just how I interpret the phrase, nothing wrong with your interpretation I was just trying to offer a different use in case that was how people here were using it.
I understand your viewpoint on the phrase. My thoughts on it are as follows: History and the passage of time doesn't really have a moral compass—if it did, notoriously bad things that occurred in the past wouldn't have happened, and vise-versa. That's why I feel the term "right side of history" is misleading in a sense. A person can believe that they're on the "right side" because they believe they're doing "the right thing" but could in fact be doing bad stuff.
Is what I'm saying making sense? I had some wine this evening and want to check.
We get what you are trying to say , in a literal sense , you are not wrong. The world doesn’t operate in that way. People thoughts and actions are most of the time based on history and how history will judge us. There is a reason why there is so many phrases using history
-
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@Kovz88 said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@writetoshawn said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
So many white people crying about the name change. Just call them the Cleveland Crackers ( or anything offensive referring to white people ) and let’s move on.
Cleveland Whities
Cleveland Gringos
Cleveland White Boys
Cleveland Proud Boys
Cleveland Ku K.... you get the pointAs a white person am I supposed to be offended by all of these? The first 3 aren't remotely offensive to me. I claim ignorance on the Proud Boys and I want zero association with the 5th, hopefully that was assumed.
Two things in this thread that appears to flew over your head .
First, it’s a slippery slope when you start using names to describe a complete ethnicity. Where does it stop?
Second, native Americans are not Indians ( which has been stated in this thread by others ). So to use a symbol of a Native American and then call your team Indians is hugely ignorant. Anyone who believes it’s ok to keep the name is wholly uneducated and tbh, an embarrassment to their ethnicity.
No these 2 things haven't "flew" over my head. Maybe you misread something. Me not being offended by those 3 words above is just my opinion and I recognize that opinion means nothing. I am well aware that there are plenty of others that may be offended by them. I agree that it is a slippery slope but thanks for assuming that I didn't.
I am well aware that Native Americans and people from India (Indians) are not the same thing. It doesn't bother me one bit that Cleveland is changing its nickname. If that organization and actual Native Americans want that change then by all means go for it!! As I have pointed out several times in this thread I don't agree with people telling others what they should think, how they should think, or what they should or shouldn't be offended by. Perfect example is your response above. Assumptions aren't good for anyone.
It is cumulative of your posts in this thread is what I was attacking. There is no grey area , the point is that just because you are not offended doesn’t make it ok. There is a right side of history and a wrong side.
Name needs to be changed , period. No excuse, no buts, no what if’s. It was wrong then and it’s wrong now. Only thing that has changed is minorities have a lot more power than they had before ( which wasn’t much at all )
As a historian I'd like to point out that history is history. It is skewed at times, but in the end, it is still history. There is no wrong or right side of facts imo.
Were you aiming for ambiguity here? There were 3 sentences written and I can’t identify one assertion made. No salt; just an observation.
Kind of? I just think the phrase "right side of history" is inaccurate. There is historical accuracy and adhering to facts, yes, but there is no right or wrong side of it to be on. History is as it is written, whether you like it or not, is what I'm trying to say.
I've heard the phrase thrown around a lot. To say one is on the wrong side of history is to say "I'm right, you're backward and wrong, so get with the program." Which is kind of rude when it's used against someone else's opinion.
Let me know if I need to clarify further.
Interesting interpretation of the phrase but accurate. Personally when I hear that phrase I don't think factually right, I think morally. Example: Nazis are on the wrong side of history because they were objectively the bad guys to anyone but them. Again, that is just how I interpret the phrase, nothing wrong with your interpretation I was just trying to offer a different use in case that was how people here were using it.
I understand your viewpoint on the phrase. My thoughts on it are as follows: History and the passage of time doesn't really have a moral compass—if it did, notoriously bad things that occurred in the past wouldn't have happened, and vise-versa. That's why I feel the term "right side of history" is misleading in a sense. A person can believe that they're on the "right side" because they believe they're doing "the right thing" but could in fact be doing bad stuff.
Is what I'm saying making sense? I had some wine this evening and want to check.
We get what you are trying to say , in a literal sense , you are not wrong. The world doesn’t operate in that way. People thoughts and actions are most of the time based on history and how history will judge us. There is a reason why there is so many phrases using history
Ah, I'm glad we have an understanding on that front.
Just one question: Are you referring to me as a "Nazi"? Simply because I have an opinion that differs from yours?
-
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@Kovz88 said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@writetoshawn said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
So many white people crying about the name change. Just call them the Cleveland Crackers ( or anything offensive referring to white people ) and let’s move on.
Cleveland Whities
Cleveland Gringos
Cleveland White Boys
Cleveland Proud Boys
Cleveland Ku K.... you get the pointAs a white person am I supposed to be offended by all of these? The first 3 aren't remotely offensive to me. I claim ignorance on the Proud Boys and I want zero association with the 5th, hopefully that was assumed.
Two things in this thread that appears to flew over your head .
First, it’s a slippery slope when you start using names to describe a complete ethnicity. Where does it stop?
Second, native Americans are not Indians ( which has been stated in this thread by others ). So to use a symbol of a Native American and then call your team Indians is hugely ignorant. Anyone who believes it’s ok to keep the name is wholly uneducated and tbh, an embarrassment to their ethnicity.
No these 2 things haven't "flew" over my head. Maybe you misread something. Me not being offended by those 3 words above is just my opinion and I recognize that opinion means nothing. I am well aware that there are plenty of others that may be offended by them. I agree that it is a slippery slope but thanks for assuming that I didn't.
I am well aware that Native Americans and people from India (Indians) are not the same thing. It doesn't bother me one bit that Cleveland is changing its nickname. If that organization and actual Native Americans want that change then by all means go for it!! As I have pointed out several times in this thread I don't agree with people telling others what they should think, how they should think, or what they should or shouldn't be offended by. Perfect example is your response above. Assumptions aren't good for anyone.
It is cumulative of your posts in this thread is what I was attacking. There is no grey area , the point is that just because you are not offended doesn’t make it ok. There is a right side of history and a wrong side.
Name needs to be changed , period. No excuse, no buts, no what if’s. It was wrong then and it’s wrong now. Only thing that has changed is minorities have a lot more power than they had before ( which wasn’t much at all )
As a historian I'd like to point out that history is history. It is skewed at times, but in the end, it is still history. There is no wrong or right side of facts imo.
Were you aiming for ambiguity here? There were 3 sentences written and I can’t identify one assertion made. No salt; just an observation.
Kind of? I just think the phrase "right side of history" is inaccurate. There is historical accuracy and adhering to facts, yes, but there is no right or wrong side of it to be on. History is as it is written, whether you like it or not, is what I'm trying to say.
I've heard the phrase thrown around a lot. To say one is on the wrong side of history is to say "I'm right, you're backward and wrong, so get with the program." Which is kind of rude when it's used against someone else's opinion.
Let me know if I need to clarify further.
Interesting interpretation of the phrase but accurate. Personally when I hear that phrase I don't think factually right, I think morally. Example: Nazis are on the wrong side of history because they were objectively the bad guys to anyone but them. Again, that is just how I interpret the phrase, nothing wrong with your interpretation I was just trying to offer a different use in case that was how people here were using it.
A saying or phrase can take on different meanings and usage through out the years. A historian I would think would know that . Holocaust happened , that is history. People who fought against it , would be on “the right side of history “. The nazi , yeah , you get the point .
There is a literal interpretation of a word or saying or phrase and there is a implied meaning.
Nice try though Mr Historian. You can keep on the Nazi side ( good people in both sides ring a bell ). I’ll stick to the right side and against oppression and the exploitation of people .
Quoted one person but this is really towards The Doctors Wife
I'm a woman, thank you very much. So "Ms. Historian".
Just one question: Are you referring to me as a "Nazi"? Simply because I have an opinion that differs from yours?
My apologies,
For the Mr part
-
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@Kovz88 said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@writetoshawn said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
So many white people crying about the name change. Just call them the Cleveland Crackers ( or anything offensive referring to white people ) and let’s move on.
Cleveland Whities
Cleveland Gringos
Cleveland White Boys
Cleveland Proud Boys
Cleveland Ku K.... you get the pointAs a white person am I supposed to be offended by all of these? The first 3 aren't remotely offensive to me. I claim ignorance on the Proud Boys and I want zero association with the 5th, hopefully that was assumed.
Two things in this thread that appears to flew over your head .
First, it’s a slippery slope when you start using names to describe a complete ethnicity. Where does it stop?
Second, native Americans are not Indians ( which has been stated in this thread by others ). So to use a symbol of a Native American and then call your team Indians is hugely ignorant. Anyone who believes it’s ok to keep the name is wholly uneducated and tbh, an embarrassment to their ethnicity.
No these 2 things haven't "flew" over my head. Maybe you misread something. Me not being offended by those 3 words above is just my opinion and I recognize that opinion means nothing. I am well aware that there are plenty of others that may be offended by them. I agree that it is a slippery slope but thanks for assuming that I didn't.
I am well aware that Native Americans and people from India (Indians) are not the same thing. It doesn't bother me one bit that Cleveland is changing its nickname. If that organization and actual Native Americans want that change then by all means go for it!! As I have pointed out several times in this thread I don't agree with people telling others what they should think, how they should think, or what they should or shouldn't be offended by. Perfect example is your response above. Assumptions aren't good for anyone.
It is cumulative of your posts in this thread is what I was attacking. There is no grey area , the point is that just because you are not offended doesn’t make it ok. There is a right side of history and a wrong side.
Name needs to be changed , period. No excuse, no buts, no what if’s. It was wrong then and it’s wrong now. Only thing that has changed is minorities have a lot more power than they had before ( which wasn’t much at all )
As a historian I'd like to point out that history is history. It is skewed at times, but in the end, it is still history. There is no wrong or right side of facts imo.
Were you aiming for ambiguity here? There were 3 sentences written and I can’t identify one assertion made. No salt; just an observation.
Kind of? I just think the phrase "right side of history" is inaccurate. There is historical accuracy and adhering to facts, yes, but there is no right or wrong side of it to be on. History is as it is written, whether you like it or not, is what I'm trying to say.
I've heard the phrase thrown around a lot. To say one is on the wrong side of history is to say "I'm right, you're backward and wrong, so get with the program." Which is kind of rude when it's used against someone else's opinion.
Let me know if I need to clarify further.
Interesting interpretation of the phrase but accurate. Personally when I hear that phrase I don't think factually right, I think morally. Example: Nazis are on the wrong side of history because they were objectively the bad guys to anyone but them. Again, that is just how I interpret the phrase, nothing wrong with your interpretation I was just trying to offer a different use in case that was how people here were using it.
I understand your viewpoint on the phrase. My thoughts on it are as follows: History and the passage of time doesn't really have a moral compass—if it did, notoriously bad things that occurred in the past wouldn't have happened, and vise-versa. That's why I feel the term "right side of history" is misleading in a sense. A person can believe that they're on the "right side" because they believe they're doing "the right thing" but could in fact be doing bad stuff.
Is what I'm saying making sense? I had some wine this evening and want to check.
Yes I agree that everyone always believes that they are fighting for a righteous cause. I don’t think anyone can say in the moment whether or not they are on the 'right side of history' because you never know the long term unintended consequences of what could be pure intentions. I tend to view it more as a past tense phrase, we can look back and see now what the ride side was but in the moment a lot of the time there is a lot of gray area. Except when it comes to genocide, anyone committing genocide is always the bad guys.
-
@Kovz88 said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@Kovz88 said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@writetoshawn said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
So many white people crying about the name change. Just call them the Cleveland Crackers ( or anything offensive referring to white people ) and let’s move on.
Cleveland Whities
Cleveland Gringos
Cleveland White Boys
Cleveland Proud Boys
Cleveland Ku K.... you get the pointAs a white person am I supposed to be offended by all of these? The first 3 aren't remotely offensive to me. I claim ignorance on the Proud Boys and I want zero association with the 5th, hopefully that was assumed.
Two things in this thread that appears to flew over your head .
First, it’s a slippery slope when you start using names to describe a complete ethnicity. Where does it stop?
Second, native Americans are not Indians ( which has been stated in this thread by others ). So to use a symbol of a Native American and then call your team Indians is hugely ignorant. Anyone who believes it’s ok to keep the name is wholly uneducated and tbh, an embarrassment to their ethnicity.
No these 2 things haven't "flew" over my head. Maybe you misread something. Me not being offended by those 3 words above is just my opinion and I recognize that opinion means nothing. I am well aware that there are plenty of others that may be offended by them. I agree that it is a slippery slope but thanks for assuming that I didn't.
I am well aware that Native Americans and people from India (Indians) are not the same thing. It doesn't bother me one bit that Cleveland is changing its nickname. If that organization and actual Native Americans want that change then by all means go for it!! As I have pointed out several times in this thread I don't agree with people telling others what they should think, how they should think, or what they should or shouldn't be offended by. Perfect example is your response above. Assumptions aren't good for anyone.
It is cumulative of your posts in this thread is what I was attacking. There is no grey area , the point is that just because you are not offended doesn’t make it ok. There is a right side of history and a wrong side.
Name needs to be changed , period. No excuse, no buts, no what if’s. It was wrong then and it’s wrong now. Only thing that has changed is minorities have a lot more power than they had before ( which wasn’t much at all )
As a historian I'd like to point out that history is history. It is skewed at times, but in the end, it is still history. There is no wrong or right side of facts imo.
Were you aiming for ambiguity here? There were 3 sentences written and I can’t identify one assertion made. No salt; just an observation.
Kind of? I just think the phrase "right side of history" is inaccurate. There is historical accuracy and adhering to facts, yes, but there is no right or wrong side of it to be on. History is as it is written, whether you like it or not, is what I'm trying to say.
I've heard the phrase thrown around a lot. To say one is on the wrong side of history is to say "I'm right, you're backward and wrong, so get with the program." Which is kind of rude when it's used against someone else's opinion.
Let me know if I need to clarify further.
Interesting interpretation of the phrase but accurate. Personally when I hear that phrase I don't think factually right, I think morally. Example: Nazis are on the wrong side of history because they were objectively the bad guys to anyone but them. Again, that is just how I interpret the phrase, nothing wrong with your interpretation I was just trying to offer a different use in case that was how people here were using it.
I understand your viewpoint on the phrase. My thoughts on it are as follows: History and the passage of time doesn't really have a moral compass—if it did, notoriously bad things that occurred in the past wouldn't have happened, and vise-versa. That's why I feel the term "right side of history" is misleading in a sense. A person can believe that they're on the "right side" because they believe they're doing "the right thing" but could in fact be doing bad stuff.
Is what I'm saying making sense? I had some wine this evening and want to check.
Yes I agree that everyone always believes that they are fighting for a righteous cause. I don’t think anyone can say in the moment whether or not they are on the 'right side of history' because you never know the long term unintended consequences of what could be pure intentions. I tend to view it more as a past tense phrase, we can look back and see now what the ride side was but in the moment a lot of the time there is a lot of gray area. Except when it comes to genocide, anyone committing genocide is always the bad guys.
So can we agree that Americans were bad guys. Since Americans did try to commit genocide on Native Americans. Reflecting back on the past history in America and Native Americans, the use of Indians and exploiting is even worse looking.
-
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@Kovz88 said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@Kovz88 said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@writetoshawn said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
So many white people crying about the name change. Just call them the Cleveland Crackers ( or anything offensive referring to white people ) and let’s move on.
Cleveland Whities
Cleveland Gringos
Cleveland White Boys
Cleveland Proud Boys
Cleveland Ku K.... you get the pointAs a white person am I supposed to be offended by all of these? The first 3 aren't remotely offensive to me. I claim ignorance on the Proud Boys and I want zero association with the 5th, hopefully that was assumed.
Two things in this thread that appears to flew over your head .
First, it’s a slippery slope when you start using names to describe a complete ethnicity. Where does it stop?
Second, native Americans are not Indians ( which has been stated in this thread by others ). So to use a symbol of a Native American and then call your team Indians is hugely ignorant. Anyone who believes it’s ok to keep the name is wholly uneducated and tbh, an embarrassment to their ethnicity.
No these 2 things haven't "flew" over my head. Maybe you misread something. Me not being offended by those 3 words above is just my opinion and I recognize that opinion means nothing. I am well aware that there are plenty of others that may be offended by them. I agree that it is a slippery slope but thanks for assuming that I didn't.
I am well aware that Native Americans and people from India (Indians) are not the same thing. It doesn't bother me one bit that Cleveland is changing its nickname. If that organization and actual Native Americans want that change then by all means go for it!! As I have pointed out several times in this thread I don't agree with people telling others what they should think, how they should think, or what they should or shouldn't be offended by. Perfect example is your response above. Assumptions aren't good for anyone.
It is cumulative of your posts in this thread is what I was attacking. There is no grey area , the point is that just because you are not offended doesn’t make it ok. There is a right side of history and a wrong side.
Name needs to be changed , period. No excuse, no buts, no what if’s. It was wrong then and it’s wrong now. Only thing that has changed is minorities have a lot more power than they had before ( which wasn’t much at all )
As a historian I'd like to point out that history is history. It is skewed at times, but in the end, it is still history. There is no wrong or right side of facts imo.
Were you aiming for ambiguity here? There were 3 sentences written and I can’t identify one assertion made. No salt; just an observation.
Kind of? I just think the phrase "right side of history" is inaccurate. There is historical accuracy and adhering to facts, yes, but there is no right or wrong side of it to be on. History is as it is written, whether you like it or not, is what I'm trying to say.
I've heard the phrase thrown around a lot. To say one is on the wrong side of history is to say "I'm right, you're backward and wrong, so get with the program." Which is kind of rude when it's used against someone else's opinion.
Let me know if I need to clarify further.
Interesting interpretation of the phrase but accurate. Personally when I hear that phrase I don't think factually right, I think morally. Example: Nazis are on the wrong side of history because they were objectively the bad guys to anyone but them. Again, that is just how I interpret the phrase, nothing wrong with your interpretation I was just trying to offer a different use in case that was how people here were using it.
I understand your viewpoint on the phrase. My thoughts on it are as follows: History and the passage of time doesn't really have a moral compass—if it did, notoriously bad things that occurred in the past wouldn't have happened, and vise-versa. That's why I feel the term "right side of history" is misleading in a sense. A person can believe that they're on the "right side" because they believe they're doing "the right thing" but could in fact be doing bad stuff.
Is what I'm saying making sense? I had some wine this evening and want to check.
Yes I agree that everyone always believes that they are fighting for a righteous cause. I don’t think anyone can say in the moment whether or not they are on the 'right side of history' because you never know the long term unintended consequences of what could be pure intentions. I tend to view it more as a past tense phrase, we can look back and see now what the ride side was but in the moment a lot of the time there is a lot of gray area. Except when it comes to genocide, anyone committing genocide is always the bad guys.
So can we agree that Americans were bad guys. Since Americans did try to commit genocide on Native Americans. Reflecting back on the past history in America and Native Americans, the use of Indians and exploiting is even worse looking.
I profoundly disagree that we as Americans are "the bad guys." If we were, millions of immigrants wouldn't be flocking here to enjoy being in the freest country in the world.
Now is American history spotless and flawless? No, of course not. Nobody is perfect. But screwing over Native Americans was mostly Andrew Jackson's thing.
-
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@Kovz88 said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@Kovz88 said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@writetoshawn said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
So many white people crying about the name change. Just call them the Cleveland Crackers ( or anything offensive referring to white people ) and let’s move on.
Cleveland Whities
Cleveland Gringos
Cleveland White Boys
Cleveland Proud Boys
Cleveland Ku K.... you get the pointAs a white person am I supposed to be offended by all of these? The first 3 aren't remotely offensive to me. I claim ignorance on the Proud Boys and I want zero association with the 5th, hopefully that was assumed.
Two things in this thread that appears to flew over your head .
First, it’s a slippery slope when you start using names to describe a complete ethnicity. Where does it stop?
Second, native Americans are not Indians ( which has been stated in this thread by others ). So to use a symbol of a Native American and then call your team Indians is hugely ignorant. Anyone who believes it’s ok to keep the name is wholly uneducated and tbh, an embarrassment to their ethnicity.
No these 2 things haven't "flew" over my head. Maybe you misread something. Me not being offended by those 3 words above is just my opinion and I recognize that opinion means nothing. I am well aware that there are plenty of others that may be offended by them. I agree that it is a slippery slope but thanks for assuming that I didn't.
I am well aware that Native Americans and people from India (Indians) are not the same thing. It doesn't bother me one bit that Cleveland is changing its nickname. If that organization and actual Native Americans want that change then by all means go for it!! As I have pointed out several times in this thread I don't agree with people telling others what they should think, how they should think, or what they should or shouldn't be offended by. Perfect example is your response above. Assumptions aren't good for anyone.
It is cumulative of your posts in this thread is what I was attacking. There is no grey area , the point is that just because you are not offended doesn’t make it ok. There is a right side of history and a wrong side.
Name needs to be changed , period. No excuse, no buts, no what if’s. It was wrong then and it’s wrong now. Only thing that has changed is minorities have a lot more power than they had before ( which wasn’t much at all )
As a historian I'd like to point out that history is history. It is skewed at times, but in the end, it is still history. There is no wrong or right side of facts imo.
Were you aiming for ambiguity here? There were 3 sentences written and I can’t identify one assertion made. No salt; just an observation.
Kind of? I just think the phrase "right side of history" is inaccurate. There is historical accuracy and adhering to facts, yes, but there is no right or wrong side of it to be on. History is as it is written, whether you like it or not, is what I'm trying to say.
I've heard the phrase thrown around a lot. To say one is on the wrong side of history is to say "I'm right, you're backward and wrong, so get with the program." Which is kind of rude when it's used against someone else's opinion.
Let me know if I need to clarify further.
Interesting interpretation of the phrase but accurate. Personally when I hear that phrase I don't think factually right, I think morally. Example: Nazis are on the wrong side of history because they were objectively the bad guys to anyone but them. Again, that is just how I interpret the phrase, nothing wrong with your interpretation I was just trying to offer a different use in case that was how people here were using it.
I understand your viewpoint on the phrase. My thoughts on it are as follows: History and the passage of time doesn't really have a moral compass—if it did, notoriously bad things that occurred in the past wouldn't have happened, and vise-versa. That's why I feel the term "right side of history" is misleading in a sense. A person can believe that they're on the "right side" because they believe they're doing "the right thing" but could in fact be doing bad stuff.
Is what I'm saying making sense? I had some wine this evening and want to check.
Yes I agree that everyone always believes that they are fighting for a righteous cause. I don’t think anyone can say in the moment whether or not they are on the 'right side of history' because you never know the long term unintended consequences of what could be pure intentions. I tend to view it more as a past tense phrase, we can look back and see now what the ride side was but in the moment a lot of the time there is a lot of gray area. Except when it comes to genocide, anyone committing genocide is always the bad guys.
So can we agree that Americans were bad guys. Since Americans did try to commit genocide on Native Americans. Reflecting back on the past history in America and Native Americans, the use of Indians and exploiting is even worse looking.
Yes of course we can agree on that. Not sure if you think I didn't agree with that but I've been on board with the name change the whole time. Same way that even tho a lot of Americans like to pound their chest and say how we were the saviors of WW2 we can't forget not only the overkill of dropping the bombs but worst of all the Japanese 'internment' camps. Im on board with change and accountability
-
@Kovz88 said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@Kovz88 said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@Kovz88 said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@writetoshawn said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
So many white people crying about the name change. Just call them the Cleveland Crackers ( or anything offensive referring to white people ) and let’s move on.
Cleveland Whities
Cleveland Gringos
Cleveland White Boys
Cleveland Proud Boys
Cleveland Ku K.... you get the pointAs a white person am I supposed to be offended by all of these? The first 3 aren't remotely offensive to me. I claim ignorance on the Proud Boys and I want zero association with the 5th, hopefully that was assumed.
Two things in this thread that appears to flew over your head .
First, it’s a slippery slope when you start using names to describe a complete ethnicity. Where does it stop?
Second, native Americans are not Indians ( which has been stated in this thread by others ). So to use a symbol of a Native American and then call your team Indians is hugely ignorant. Anyone who believes it’s ok to keep the name is wholly uneducated and tbh, an embarrassment to their ethnicity.
No these 2 things haven't "flew" over my head. Maybe you misread something. Me not being offended by those 3 words above is just my opinion and I recognize that opinion means nothing. I am well aware that there are plenty of others that may be offended by them. I agree that it is a slippery slope but thanks for assuming that I didn't.
I am well aware that Native Americans and people from India (Indians) are not the same thing. It doesn't bother me one bit that Cleveland is changing its nickname. If that organization and actual Native Americans want that change then by all means go for it!! As I have pointed out several times in this thread I don't agree with people telling others what they should think, how they should think, or what they should or shouldn't be offended by. Perfect example is your response above. Assumptions aren't good for anyone.
It is cumulative of your posts in this thread is what I was attacking. There is no grey area , the point is that just because you are not offended doesn’t make it ok. There is a right side of history and a wrong side.
Name needs to be changed , period. No excuse, no buts, no what if’s. It was wrong then and it’s wrong now. Only thing that has changed is minorities have a lot more power than they had before ( which wasn’t much at all )
As a historian I'd like to point out that history is history. It is skewed at times, but in the end, it is still history. There is no wrong or right side of facts imo.
Were you aiming for ambiguity here? There were 3 sentences written and I can’t identify one assertion made. No salt; just an observation.
Kind of? I just think the phrase "right side of history" is inaccurate. There is historical accuracy and adhering to facts, yes, but there is no right or wrong side of it to be on. History is as it is written, whether you like it or not, is what I'm trying to say.
I've heard the phrase thrown around a lot. To say one is on the wrong side of history is to say "I'm right, you're backward and wrong, so get with the program." Which is kind of rude when it's used against someone else's opinion.
Let me know if I need to clarify further.
Interesting interpretation of the phrase but accurate. Personally when I hear that phrase I don't think factually right, I think morally. Example: Nazis are on the wrong side of history because they were objectively the bad guys to anyone but them. Again, that is just how I interpret the phrase, nothing wrong with your interpretation I was just trying to offer a different use in case that was how people here were using it.
I understand your viewpoint on the phrase. My thoughts on it are as follows: History and the passage of time doesn't really have a moral compass—if it did, notoriously bad things that occurred in the past wouldn't have happened, and vise-versa. That's why I feel the term "right side of history" is misleading in a sense. A person can believe that they're on the "right side" because they believe they're doing "the right thing" but could in fact be doing bad stuff.
Is what I'm saying making sense? I had some wine this evening and want to check.
Yes I agree that everyone always believes that they are fighting for a righteous cause. I don’t think anyone can say in the moment whether or not they are on the 'right side of history' because you never know the long term unintended consequences of what could be pure intentions. I tend to view it more as a past tense phrase, we can look back and see now what the ride side was but in the moment a lot of the time there is a lot of gray area. Except when it comes to genocide, anyone committing genocide is always the bad guys.
So can we agree that Americans were bad guys. Since Americans did try to commit genocide on Native Americans. Reflecting back on the past history in America and Native Americans, the use of Indians and exploiting is even worse looking.
Yes of course we can agree on that. Not sure if you think I didn't agree with that but I've been on board with the name change the whole time. Same way that even tho a lot of Americans like to pound their chest and say how we were the saviors of WW2 we can't forget not only the overkill of dropping the bombs but worst of all the Japanese 'internment' camps. Im on board with change and accountability
Just used your post to bait “Ms. Historian” and it worked. She doesn’t think Americans were bad guys. Guess in her eyes Nazi Germany weren’t bad guys either since Germany is our ally now. Shrug.
-
@calisgw @the_doctorswife @kovz88
Look, most people shy away from this type of dialogue. I’m most impressed we’re still here, where baseball and humanity intersect. Most people run scared and get upset for letting social issues enter the conversation. Whether we agree with each other or not, we’re here and willing to engage. I appreciate it!
-
Mom says you guys need to stop arguing on the internet again.
-
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@Kovz88 said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@Kovz88 said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@Kovz88 said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@writetoshawn said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
So many white people crying about the name change. Just call them the Cleveland Crackers ( or anything offensive referring to white people ) and let’s move on.
Cleveland Whities
Cleveland Gringos
Cleveland White Boys
Cleveland Proud Boys
Cleveland Ku K.... you get the pointAs a white person am I supposed to be offended by all of these? The first 3 aren't remotely offensive to me. I claim ignorance on the Proud Boys and I want zero association with the 5th, hopefully that was assumed.
Two things in this thread that appears to flew over your head .
First, it’s a slippery slope when you start using names to describe a complete ethnicity. Where does it stop?
Second, native Americans are not Indians ( which has been stated in this thread by others ). So to use a symbol of a Native American and then call your team Indians is hugely ignorant. Anyone who believes it’s ok to keep the name is wholly uneducated and tbh, an embarrassment to their ethnicity.
No these 2 things haven't "flew" over my head. Maybe you misread something. Me not being offended by those 3 words above is just my opinion and I recognize that opinion means nothing. I am well aware that there are plenty of others that may be offended by them. I agree that it is a slippery slope but thanks for assuming that I didn't.
I am well aware that Native Americans and people from India (Indians) are not the same thing. It doesn't bother me one bit that Cleveland is changing its nickname. If that organization and actual Native Americans want that change then by all means go for it!! As I have pointed out several times in this thread I don't agree with people telling others what they should think, how they should think, or what they should or shouldn't be offended by. Perfect example is your response above. Assumptions aren't good for anyone.
It is cumulative of your posts in this thread is what I was attacking. There is no grey area , the point is that just because you are not offended doesn’t make it ok. There is a right side of history and a wrong side.
Name needs to be changed , period. No excuse, no buts, no what if’s. It was wrong then and it’s wrong now. Only thing that has changed is minorities have a lot more power than they had before ( which wasn’t much at all )
As a historian I'd like to point out that history is history. It is skewed at times, but in the end, it is still history. There is no wrong or right side of facts imo.
Were you aiming for ambiguity here? There were 3 sentences written and I can’t identify one assertion made. No salt; just an observation.
Kind of? I just think the phrase "right side of history" is inaccurate. There is historical accuracy and adhering to facts, yes, but there is no right or wrong side of it to be on. History is as it is written, whether you like it or not, is what I'm trying to say.
I've heard the phrase thrown around a lot. To say one is on the wrong side of history is to say "I'm right, you're backward and wrong, so get with the program." Which is kind of rude when it's used against someone else's opinion.
Let me know if I need to clarify further.
Interesting interpretation of the phrase but accurate. Personally when I hear that phrase I don't think factually right, I think morally. Example: Nazis are on the wrong side of history because they were objectively the bad guys to anyone but them. Again, that is just how I interpret the phrase, nothing wrong with your interpretation I was just trying to offer a different use in case that was how people here were using it.
I understand your viewpoint on the phrase. My thoughts on it are as follows: History and the passage of time doesn't really have a moral compass—if it did, notoriously bad things that occurred in the past wouldn't have happened, and vise-versa. That's why I feel the term "right side of history" is misleading in a sense. A person can believe that they're on the "right side" because they believe they're doing "the right thing" but could in fact be doing bad stuff.
Is what I'm saying making sense? I had some wine this evening and want to check.
Yes I agree that everyone always believes that they are fighting for a righteous cause. I don’t think anyone can say in the moment whether or not they are on the 'right side of history' because you never know the long term unintended consequences of what could be pure intentions. I tend to view it more as a past tense phrase, we can look back and see now what the ride side was but in the moment a lot of the time there is a lot of gray area. Except when it comes to genocide, anyone committing genocide is always the bad guys.
So can we agree that Americans were bad guys. Since Americans did try to commit genocide on Native Americans. Reflecting back on the past history in America and Native Americans, the use of Indians and exploiting is even worse looking.
Yes of course we can agree on that. Not sure if you think I didn't agree with that but I've been on board with the name change the whole time. Same way that even tho a lot of Americans like to pound their chest and say how we were the saviors of WW2 we can't forget not only the overkill of dropping the bombs but worst of all the Japanese 'internment' camps. Im on board with change and accountability
Just used your post to bait “Ms. Historian” and it worked. She doesn’t think Americans were bad guys. Guess in her eyes Nazi Germany weren’t bad guys either since Germany is our ally now. Shrug.
People who talk in generalities like "Americans were the bad guys" completely miss the fact that all groups have evil people among them that commit stunningly horrible acts.
Some Native tribes (ex. Comanche) were so brutal by our standards, you could make a case they were on par with some Nazis with their torture methods. And this was before contact with Europeans.
Aztecs and Maoris ate people. Take a look at the Congo or Sierra Leone for more recent examples of how brutal some people can be.
Evil people exist regardless of race, tribe or religion, but they are not representative of the entire race, tribe or religion.
Retroactively applying our current morals upon groups from the past means everyone is guilty of something.
-
@abbyspapa said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@Kovz88 said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@Kovz88 said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@Kovz88 said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@writetoshawn said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
So many white people crying about the name change. Just call them the Cleveland Crackers ( or anything offensive referring to white people ) and let’s move on.
Cleveland Whities
Cleveland Gringos
Cleveland White Boys
Cleveland Proud Boys
Cleveland Ku K.... you get the pointAs a white person am I supposed to be offended by all of these? The first 3 aren't remotely offensive to me. I claim ignorance on the Proud Boys and I want zero association with the 5th, hopefully that was assumed.
Two things in this thread that appears to flew over your head .
First, it’s a slippery slope when you start using names to describe a complete ethnicity. Where does it stop?
Second, native Americans are not Indians ( which has been stated in this thread by others ). So to use a symbol of a Native American and then call your team Indians is hugely ignorant. Anyone who believes it’s ok to keep the name is wholly uneducated and tbh, an embarrassment to their ethnicity.
No these 2 things haven't "flew" over my head. Maybe you misread something. Me not being offended by those 3 words above is just my opinion and I recognize that opinion means nothing. I am well aware that there are plenty of others that may be offended by them. I agree that it is a slippery slope but thanks for assuming that I didn't.
I am well aware that Native Americans and people from India (Indians) are not the same thing. It doesn't bother me one bit that Cleveland is changing its nickname. If that organization and actual Native Americans want that change then by all means go for it!! As I have pointed out several times in this thread I don't agree with people telling others what they should think, how they should think, or what they should or shouldn't be offended by. Perfect example is your response above. Assumptions aren't good for anyone.
It is cumulative of your posts in this thread is what I was attacking. There is no grey area , the point is that just because you are not offended doesn’t make it ok. There is a right side of history and a wrong side.
Name needs to be changed , period. No excuse, no buts, no what if’s. It was wrong then and it’s wrong now. Only thing that has changed is minorities have a lot more power than they had before ( which wasn’t much at all )
As a historian I'd like to point out that history is history. It is skewed at times, but in the end, it is still history. There is no wrong or right side of facts imo.
Were you aiming for ambiguity here? There were 3 sentences written and I can’t identify one assertion made. No salt; just an observation.
Kind of? I just think the phrase "right side of history" is inaccurate. There is historical accuracy and adhering to facts, yes, but there is no right or wrong side of it to be on. History is as it is written, whether you like it or not, is what I'm trying to say.
I've heard the phrase thrown around a lot. To say one is on the wrong side of history is to say "I'm right, you're backward and wrong, so get with the program." Which is kind of rude when it's used against someone else's opinion.
Let me know if I need to clarify further.
Interesting interpretation of the phrase but accurate. Personally when I hear that phrase I don't think factually right, I think morally. Example: Nazis are on the wrong side of history because they were objectively the bad guys to anyone but them. Again, that is just how I interpret the phrase, nothing wrong with your interpretation I was just trying to offer a different use in case that was how people here were using it.
I understand your viewpoint on the phrase. My thoughts on it are as follows: History and the passage of time doesn't really have a moral compass—if it did, notoriously bad things that occurred in the past wouldn't have happened, and vise-versa. That's why I feel the term "right side of history" is misleading in a sense. A person can believe that they're on the "right side" because they believe they're doing "the right thing" but could in fact be doing bad stuff.
Is what I'm saying making sense? I had some wine this evening and want to check.
Yes I agree that everyone always believes that they are fighting for a righteous cause. I don’t think anyone can say in the moment whether or not they are on the 'right side of history' because you never know the long term unintended consequences of what could be pure intentions. I tend to view it more as a past tense phrase, we can look back and see now what the ride side was but in the moment a lot of the time there is a lot of gray area. Except when it comes to genocide, anyone committing genocide is always the bad guys.
So can we agree that Americans were bad guys. Since Americans did try to commit genocide on Native Americans. Reflecting back on the past history in America and Native Americans, the use of Indians and exploiting is even worse looking.
Yes of course we can agree on that. Not sure if you think I didn't agree with that but I've been on board with the name change the whole time. Same way that even tho a lot of Americans like to pound their chest and say how we were the saviors of WW2 we can't forget not only the overkill of dropping the bombs but worst of all the Japanese 'internment' camps. Im on board with change and accountability
Just used your post to bait “Ms. Historian” and it worked. She doesn’t think Americans were bad guys. Guess in her eyes Nazi Germany weren’t bad guys either since Germany is our ally now. Shrug.
People who talk in generalities like "Americans were the bad guys" completely miss the fact that all groups have evil people among them that commit stunningly horrible acts.
Some Native tribes (ex. Comanche) were so brutal by our standards, you could make a case they were on par with some Nazis with their torture methods. And this was before contact with Europeans.
Aztecs and Maoris ate people. Take a look at the Congo or Sierra Leone for more recent examples of how brutal some people can be.
Evil people exist regardless of race, tribe or religion, but they are not representative of the entire race, tribe or religion.
Retroactively applying our current morals upon groups from the past means everyone is guilty of something.
Your response is intelligent, insightful, and wise.
What I want to add (not that you asked) is that sometimes when engaging with someone who is personally afflicted through their own experiences, the first thing to start with is to acknowledge that what happened here was wrong, unacceptable, and warrants change. Without that most essential part of this type of dialogue, it becomes two sides becoming defensive and often filled with vitriol. People here will call me a pss or whatever (don’t care), but these things have to begin with empathy.
Thanks for your astute commentary though.
-
Acknowledgement is without the key. Some people just can’t get over the fact they or their ethnicity is not perfect and have committed atrocious acts.
What struck me as awful was the comment about Americans were not bad , just made a few mistakes. Lol
-
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
Acknowledgement is without doubt, the key. Some people just can’t get over the fact they or their ethnicity is not perfect and have committed atrocious acts.
What struck me as awful was the comment about Americans were not bad , just made a few mistakes. Lol
-
@TheGoaler said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
'Rockers' sounds cool, until your pitchers get rocked!
Doubt they'd go with it given Colorado's name. Can't imagine the Rockers playing the Rockies!
-
I was listening to WFAN yesterday and someone brought up the fact that in Major league sports there is basically no dog mascots/team names. Considering the Browns fans and the whole 'Dog Pound' thing maybe they could have some sort of canine related name for the baseball team.
-
@writetoshawn said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@calisgw @the_doctorswife @kovz88
Look, most people shy away from this type of dialogue. I’m most impressed we’re still here, where baseball and humanity intersect. Most people run scared and get upset for letting social issues enter the conversation. Whether we agree with each other or not, we’re here and willing to engage. I appreciate it!
Same here. I enjoy participating in these thoughtful discussions, talking things out and stuff. It's very interesting to read what various thoughts people have on issues like this, whether I agree with people or not.
-
@abbyspapa said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@Kovz88 said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@Kovz88 said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@Kovz88 said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@writetoshawn said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@The_DoctorsWife said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@NCStateHokie said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
@CalisGW said in The Cleveland Baseball Team....:
So many white people crying about the name change. Just call them the Cleveland Crackers ( or anything offensive referring to white people ) and let’s move on.
Cleveland Whities
Cleveland Gringos
Cleveland White Boys
Cleveland Proud Boys
Cleveland Ku K.... you get the pointAs a white person am I supposed to be offended by all of these? The first 3 aren't remotely offensive to me. I claim ignorance on the Proud Boys and I want zero association with the 5th, hopefully that was assumed.
Two things in this thread that appears to flew over your head .
First, it’s a slippery slope when you start using names to describe a complete ethnicity. Where does it stop?
Second, native Americans are not Indians ( which has been stated in this thread by others ). So to use a symbol of a Native American and then call your team Indians is hugely ignorant. Anyone who believes it’s ok to keep the name is wholly uneducated and tbh, an embarrassment to their ethnicity.
No these 2 things haven't "flew" over my head. Maybe you misread something. Me not being offended by those 3 words above is just my opinion and I recognize that opinion means nothing. I am well aware that there are plenty of others that may be offended by them. I agree that it is a slippery slope but thanks for assuming that I didn't.
I am well aware that Native Americans and people from India (Indians) are not the same thing. It doesn't bother me one bit that Cleveland is changing its nickname. If that organization and actual Native Americans want that change then by all means go for it!! As I have pointed out several times in this thread I don't agree with people telling others what they should think, how they should think, or what they should or shouldn't be offended by. Perfect example is your response above. Assumptions aren't good for anyone.
It is cumulative of your posts in this thread is what I was attacking. There is no grey area , the point is that just because you are not offended doesn’t make it ok. There is a right side of history and a wrong side.
Name needs to be changed , period. No excuse, no buts, no what if’s. It was wrong then and it’s wrong now. Only thing that has changed is minorities have a lot more power than they had before ( which wasn’t much at all )
As a historian I'd like to point out that history is history. It is skewed at times, but in the end, it is still history. There is no wrong or right side of facts imo.
Were you aiming for ambiguity here? There were 3 sentences written and I can’t identify one assertion made. No salt; just an observation.
Kind of? I just think the phrase "right side of history" is inaccurate. There is historical accuracy and adhering to facts, yes, but there is no right or wrong side of it to be on. History is as it is written, whether you like it or not, is what I'm trying to say.
I've heard the phrase thrown around a lot. To say one is on the wrong side of history is to say "I'm right, you're backward and wrong, so get with the program." Which is kind of rude when it's used against someone else's opinion.
Let me know if I need to clarify further.
Interesting interpretation of the phrase but accurate. Personally when I hear that phrase I don't think factually right, I think morally. Example: Nazis are on the wrong side of history because they were objectively the bad guys to anyone but them. Again, that is just how I interpret the phrase, nothing wrong with your interpretation I was just trying to offer a different use in case that was how people here were using it.
I understand your viewpoint on the phrase. My thoughts on it are as follows: History and the passage of time doesn't really have a moral compass—if it did, notoriously bad things that occurred in the past wouldn't have happened, and vise-versa. That's why I feel the term "right side of history" is misleading in a sense. A person can believe that they're on the "right side" because they believe they're doing "the right thing" but could in fact be doing bad stuff.
Is what I'm saying making sense? I had some wine this evening and want to check.
Yes I agree that everyone always believes that they are fighting for a righteous cause. I don’t think anyone can say in the moment whether or not they are on the 'right side of history' because you never know the long term unintended consequences of what could be pure intentions. I tend to view it more as a past tense phrase, we can look back and see now what the ride side was but in the moment a lot of the time there is a lot of gray area. Except when it comes to genocide, anyone committing genocide is always the bad guys.
So can we agree that Americans were bad guys. Since Americans did try to commit genocide on Native Americans. Reflecting back on the past history in America and Native Americans, the use of Indians and exploiting is even worse looking.
Yes of course we can agree on that. Not sure if you think I didn't agree with that but I've been on board with the name change the whole time. Same way that even tho a lot of Americans like to pound their chest and say how we were the saviors of WW2 we can't forget not only the overkill of dropping the bombs but worst of all the Japanese 'internment' camps. Im on board with change and accountability
Just used your post to bait “Ms. Historian” and it worked. She doesn’t think Americans were bad guys. Guess in her eyes Nazi Germany weren’t bad guys either since Germany is our ally now. Shrug.
People who talk in generalities like "Americans were the bad guys" completely miss the fact that all groups have evil people among them that commit stunningly horrible acts.
Some Native tribes (ex. Comanche) were so brutal by our standards, you could make a case they were on par with some Nazis with their torture methods. And this was before contact with Europeans.
Aztecs and Maoris ate people. Take a look at the Congo or Sierra Leone for more recent examples of how brutal some people can be.
Evil people exist regardless of race, tribe or religion, but they are not representative of the entire race, tribe or religion.
Retroactively applying our current morals upon groups from the past means everyone is guilty of something.
Agree. Every group now and throughout history has bad eggs. In the case of American history, a few bad eggs certainly do not spoil the bunch.
